Discussion About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

By the time you counter-attack, your opponent should have his nen up again.

Ko is dangerous because you can attack the Ko user during the attack.

Biscuit pretty much said that Ko would still do damage with Ken, and that fighting with Ken was done with Ryuu.



Rock is Gon's hatsu- at such, it gain Hatsu bonus. Even then, people can defend against Rock, especially if it's slow-mo Rock. the problem is that phys+nen is multiplicative, not additive, which means that countering KO in a real combat is extremely hard.

Btw, no one tried to block Rock, ever.

Knuckle didn't move, which means his defense was extremely limited, Gensuru didn't have any defense up then, etc.

Of course Ko will do damage to any kind of guard outside of Ko or it can't possibly be the strongest basic attack. But this is in context of combat, not who can withstand the most damage. If you take damage and your opponent is dead, that's good enough.

Feitan sure wasn't able to defend on time against Zanza and he's been portrayed as the 'speed' character amongst Spiders. Zanza's counterattack is said to be a weak Emission type attack.
Sure you can say depending on the exact abilities of your opponent, he may not have a ranged attack to effectively counter after he blocked, but that's putting way too much on chance. Even a weak Emission attack did some serious damage to Feitan. There's definitely a period of vulnerability after using Ko. You're essentially channeling all your aura in one point. It's not going to return instantaneously after you use it up.

 

[kkck]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Well, the feitan situation has an element of feitan being careless too. He made a mistake in setting up his defense a second too late. One ko is done for the user does not have to move aura from the fist back to the body, it is a matter of setting up ken again. That can be done pretty fast by any user. That does not mean ko is not a dangerous move to the user however the window to cause damage immediately after the attack is small with a trained user. In most situations the danger to the ko user is while his attack is being carried out, immediately after the window quickly disappears.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

By the time you counter-attack, your opponent should have his nen up again.

Ko is dangerous because you can attack the Ko user during the attack.

Biscuit pretty much said that Ko would still do damage with Ken, and that fighting with Ken was done with Ryuu.



Rock is Gon's hatsu- at such, it gain Hatsu bonus. Even then, people can defend against Rock, especially if it's slow-mo Rock. the problem is that phys+nen is multiplicative, not additive, which means that countering KO in a real combat is extremely hard.

Btw, no one tried to block Rock, ever.

Knuckle didn't move, which means his defense was extremely limited, Gensuru didn't have any defense up then, etc.

Of course Ko will do damage to any kind of guard outside of Ko or it can't possibly be the strongest basic attack. But this is in context of combat, not who can withstand the most damage. If you take damage and your opponent is dead, that's good enough.

Feitan sure wasn't able to defend on time against Zanza and he's been portrayed as the 'speed' character amongst Spiders. Zanza's counterattack is said to be a weak Emission type attack.
Sure you can say depending on the exact abilities of your opponent, he may not have a ranged attack to effectively counter after he blocked, but that's putting way too much on chance. Even a weak Emission attack did some serious damage to Feitan. There's definitely a period of vulnerability after using Ko. You're essentially channeling all your aura in one point. It's not going to return instantaneously after you use it up.

Gensuru said he must avoid the attack. Defending wasn't even something he thought about. He immediately surrendered when he got trapped. It has to be the case that he cannot defend against it successfully or why would he need to do that? Knuckles always avoided rock during the fight except the time he was immobile. He used Ken there, and I guess you can say if he can use his hands (didn't look like he used them) it might be different, but he still was using his maximum AP to defend for sure, since it was an attack that could've killed him.

---------- Post added at 08:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 PM ----------

Gensuru versus Gon is a pretty good example of how Kou versus Ken would've played out. Gensuru used 90% to attack both of Gon's arms, leaving 10% to defend, while Gon defended with 30% on one arm and 70% attack with his legs. The result is that Gensuru almost fainted, Gon lost an arm + heavily damaged another arm.

However, in HXH there's a big difference between 10% aura and 0% aura. We're repeatedly reminded that it is basically inconceiveable to defend successfully with 0% aura. So replay the scenario out, had Gensuru used Kou and Gon still defend with an arm. He'd still get his arm blown off, but now his kick could kill Gensuru in one hit, or at least knock him out since he's defending with 0% now, and then the fight would be over. I guess Gensuru can try to hit his body instead and go for the kill, but he's still going to get hit by the kick (both attack happened at the same time) so he'll still either die or at least pass out from the counterattack. Maybe he can hope he'll get lucky and wake up before anyone hostile enemies show up, but that's putting a lot to risk, especially considered his total power is way higher than Gon.

---------- Post added at 08:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:09 PM ----------

Well, the feitan situation has an element of feitan being careless too. He made a mistake in setting up his defense a second too late. One ko is done for the user does not have to move aura from the fist back to the body, it is a matter of setting up ken again. That can be done pretty fast by any user. That does not mean ko is not a dangerous move to the user however the window to cause damage immediately after the attack is small with a trained user. In most situations the danger to the ko user is while his attack is being carried out, immediately after the window quickly disappears.

If there's no penalty to using the Ko why doesn't everyone use it? Besides, if you think the vulnerabilty is only while attacking, then you should always use Ko against Ko on the defense, becauseif you're not going to be able to defend against it successfully you might as well go for the kill. It is just as likely that the attacker hit the defender first or the other way around.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Feitan sure wasn't able to defend on time against Zanza and he's been portrayed as the 'speed' character amongst Spiders. Zanza's counterattack is said to be a weak Emission type attack.

Fei-tan explicitely didn't defend because he was arrogant, not because he couldn't.

Gensuru said he must avoid the attack. Defending wasn't even something he thought about. He immediately surrendered when he got trapped. It has to be the case that he cannot defend against it successfully or why would he need to do that? Knuckles always avoided rock during the fight except the time he was immobile. He used Ken there, and I guess you can say if he can use his hands (didn't look like he used them) it might be different, but he still was using his maximum AP to defend for sure, since it was an attack that could've killed him.

Gensuru avoided it because he was knocked out and couldn't muster nen. Also, keep in mind that a Ko from a reinforcement nen user *cannot* be blocked from someone of another category at roughly the same level.

Knuckle didn't block it because there is no reason whatsoever to block it, and it's suicidal to block a technique like that. You *don't* block Ko.

However, in HXH there's a big difference between 10% aura and 0% aura. We're repeatedly reminded that it is basically inconceiveable to defend successfully with 0% aura. So replay the scenario out, had Gensuru used Kou and Gon still defend with an arm. He'd still get his arm blown off, but now his kick could kill Gensuru in one hit, or at least knock him out since he's defending with 0% now, and then the fight would be over. I guess Gensuru can try to hit his body instead and go for the kill, but he's still going to get hit by the kick (both attack happened at the same time) so he'll still either die or at least pass out from the counterattack. Maybe he can hope he'll get lucky and wake up before anyone hostile enemies show up, but that's putting a lot to risk, especially considered his total power is way higher than Gon.

Except that if someone uses Kou, he doesn't hit a arm.

There is a reason the only people who uses KO are reinforcemnt users- because you can't defend against a Reinforced KO unless you are much stronger than the Reinforced user in Aura mass, and a Reinforcement user can defend against your KO if you are not a Reinforcement user.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

HXH always talks about how defending against aura with no aura is suicidal and Feitan just decide to see if his body can withstand a weak aura attack? Did he never attend a class in basic aura 101? Certainly nobody was surprised at the outcome. Not to mention at this point you'd think all the Spiders have figured out the Ants have far superior physical strength. Feitan's Kou just got blocked for no damage, but he's going to test his body with 0% aura against someone who can block a Kou?

If you don't think it's possible to defend against Ko successfully, where is the weakness? Why do you think Ko versus Ko is even a bad idea if you think defending Ko with a Ken just results in the attacker getting in a free hit? You don't believe it can be countered, and it's clear the guy defending with Ken still takes damage. So why would you guard against an attack you're strictly worse off instead of just countering with Ko for 50/50 chance to win (whoever hits the other guy first wins in this case). Even if you say you defended with a 95% Ryuu at the right spot, you still taken damage. If you can't counterattack, how is that useful? Is the threat of a double KO the only thing that holds Ko back? Then that'd mean anyone who is fearless should be using it all the time against equivalent characters.

 

[kkck]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

If there's no penalty to using the Ko why doesn't everyone use it? Besides, if you think the vulnerabilty is only while attacking, then you should always use Ko against Ko on the defense, becauseif you're not going to be able to defend against it successfully you might as well go for the kill. It is just as likely that the attacker hit the defender first or the other way around.

I did not say there was not a penalty to using ko. The user is most vulnerable during the attack simply because it is during the attack that he has no defense. How long does it take to set up your ken? From what we have seen it in fact does not take long to set up. Going for the kill against someone using ko is an alternative and perhaps one of the reasons it puts the ko user at high risk. If it is a fight between enhancers then the one who makes even a slight mistake dies from the ko of the other. If it is not between enhancers he has to use his hatsu however going for the kill would imply being unable to properly set up a defense in case his attack fails for some reason. Ko in any scenario is dangerous to the user and the enemy however that does not change that ken can be set up virtually instantly by any decent nen user.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Let's assume two identical users. If you see your enemy Ko, you counterattack with Ko. Biscuit never said that's too slow, just too risky. What's the possible outcome of Ko versus Ko?

1. Attacker Ko hits your undefended spot, you die.
2. Attacker Ko hits your Ko, nothing happens.
3. You hit the attacker with Ko on an undefended spot, attacker dies.

This is completely equal situation for both the attacker and the defender. Basically whoever hits the other guy first wins.

We'll ignore Ryuu because there are too many what ifs, like what if you defend with 95% and then the attacker hit a spot that's 5% and you'd never be able to figure out what's going on.

Since Ko versus Ko, which is described bad, is just a coin flip, that implies defending against Ko with Ken has to be advantageous. Otherwise a fearless character will never use anything but Ko the whole time. While Ken cannot expected to defend against Ko without taking damage, it has to be the case that the risk of the Ko user taking fatal damage outweighs the near certainty of the Ken user taking significant damage.

If there are differences in the two characters involved, this may significantly impact the choice here, but all the basic theories of HXH are supposed to be regarding two equal individuals. If you're much stronger than your enemy, then clearly the risk for using Ko is greatly reduced, both because the enemy isn't likely to survive the Ko and that you're far more capable of withstanding any counterattacks.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Guys, just remember that Reinforcement isn't Nen movement or any of those basic techniques. All other schools can use those, but they can apply properties to object or their Nen besides Nen techniques. So it is safe to say that despite being confused with Ko, Rock is something else entirely as it is an application of Reinforcement on the fist as well as Ko.

Similar to it would be Killua using Ko on his fist and then changing that aura into electricity (not very useful but just for the sake of the explanation). Also if Kurapica ever used Ko prior to conjuring a chain around his fist. Except Gon doesn't materialize anything or transform his Nen, he reinforces what his Nen is applyed to. That's Reinforcement's effect, not Ko.

 

[kkck]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Rock is ko, the math speaks for itself . How clearer could it possibly be? Ko is using ten, ren, zetsu, hatsu and gyo at the same time. Gon developed rock by using ten, ren, zetsu, hatsu and gyu at the same time. It is clear as day. More so, bisk is a high level nen user and so is feitan (at the very least significantly better than gon which is still putting it mildly) and their ko was obviously not as good which can be easily attributed to enhancement not being their main nen type. I can agree in that ten, ren, ken, and ken do not constitute reinforcement as they only deal with aura output and their control, shu is simply extending ten (interestingly we never saw a version which extends ren and ken which could be interesting to talk about) meaning that there should not be any inherent power loss and even gyo and ryu represent rather small amounts of nen concentration for it to represent a significant loss due to hatsu rules however ko due to what we have seen is evidently a purely enhancement technique which gon has been shown to use better than high level nen users in spite of his gross inexperience (he was able to knock out knuckle even after knuckle had time to set up his defense).

 

[Jack Van Burace]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Rock isn't Ko, Rock is Ko when Reinforcement is applyed to it. That's the same as saying a regular punch is the same that a punch with Ko. "I punched you, so you were hit with Ko!", not likely. I cannot use Nen, so a punch of mine wouldn't be using Ko.

Same with Bisk or Feitan. They can use Ko, but not Rock. Why? Because to use Rock one must apply Reinforcement on the fist, as well as Ko. Obviously the result is just something not as good as Rock, and in the essence equal, but using just Ko isn't what Rock is. Anything in Reinforcement is just a regular move augmented with Reinforcement (it's quantity over quality), so anything a Reinforcer can do, others will be able to mimic as well. But they won't get the same good results, and that's the difference. They can't do anything unique, they're opposing to unique, what they do is improve the common place techniques to a state that nobody else can reach.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Urgh, Ko is Rock that isn't Gon's Hatsu.

This is explicit. Every nen users can use Reinforcement and can use Ko in some manner, it's just that Reinforcement nen users won't waste any energy and will use KO better.

*Everyone* use reinforcement. But Reinforcement users are at least 20% better than anyone else at it.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

If rock is just 'punch really strongly' it'd be comparable to Ubogin's Big Bang punch. This move appears to come very fast and has no obvious drawbacks. But Kurapika can defend against that with only a broken arm. His modified affinity is 60% (60% level, 100% type) which is basically the same as a Transform/Emission user at 64% but he can still defend successfully. Since Ubogin is someone who only seeks pure destructive power, it's hard to imagine why he wouldn't use Ko if it makes sense to use it. Yes that fight predates the concept being explained but that's like saying Kuroro, Zeno, and Silva don't know how to use Ken since we sure don't see them specifically use it in their fight. There's only two possible conclusion:

1. Big Bang punch < Ko, but Ko is too dangerous to use so Ubogin didn't use it. Seems kind of out of character for someone like Ubogin, but possible.
2. Big Bang punch >= Ko. This would mean Ko is defendable by normal methods. Kurapika can also control his chains at the same time he's defending (he made them disappear) so he didn't need Ko to defend.

By the way, just because an attacker is using Ko doensn't mean you've to stand there and let him hit you. Ubogin was going for Kurapika's back spine. Looking at the damage done, that would've been enough to paralyze him if it connected. But Kurapika doesn't have to stand still. Even if Kurapika took more damage, the maximum damage that could happen is he loses his arm completely, which would suck, but it wouldn't stop his counterattack.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

The ubogin/Kurapika fight is really weird.

If you remember, Chain Jail actually caught Ubogin *Before* his big bang impact.

I usually argue that because it was under In, its effect was muted, hence Kurapika still got a broken arm, but survived.

Also, remember that Ubo using Big bang impact previously was much, much stronger than Gon's rock.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

If he used Big Bang without aura, it wouldn't even scratch Kurapika. When he was at 20% AP output, his punch didn't do any damage to Kurapika either, let alone 0% AP output. I'm assuming Ubogin's power output means AP, because it really wouldn't make any sense to purposely punch weaker in a fight to the death.

Ubogin expected a shattered spine. It sure looks the damage he done to Kurapika's arm was enough to shatter his spine. He praised Kurapika, and he was clearly winning in that exchange, and while he praised Kurapika it sure wasn't something inconceiveable. It's fairly consistent with the advantage you'd expect for a Reinforcement user against an equal level opponent.

Even if Ubogin can increase his power output via Ko, at best he'll shatter Kurapika's arm if you replay the scenario (assuming force doesn't magically transmit through your body, it should end at the arm). Kurapika can definitely counterattack the same time he got hit (he used Chain Jail), and we know naked body versus aura anything = nearly certain death. So, even if Ko was more powerful than Big Bang punch, it's still dangerous. If Kurapika simply counterattacked with the intention to kill, Ubogin almost certainly would've died since he has 0 defense at that point. Risking your life for merely an arm, against someone who has a physical lower strength/defense than you, is simply not a good trade.

 

[kkck]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

If rock is just 'punch really strongly' it'd be comparable to Ubogin's Big Bang punch. This move appears to come very fast and has no obvious drawbacks. But Kurapika can defend against that with only a broken arm. His modified affinity is 60% (60% level, 100% type) which is basically the same as a Transform/Emission user at 64% but he can still defend successfully. Since Ubogin is someone who only seeks pure destructive power, it's hard to imagine why he wouldn't use Ko if it makes sense to use it. Yes that fight predates the concept being explained but that's like saying Kuroro, Zeno, and Silva don't know how to use Ken since we sure don't see them specifically use it in their fight. There's only two possible conclusion:

1. Big Bang punch < Ko, but Ko is too dangerous to use so Ubogin didn't use it. Seems kind of out of character for someone like Ubogin, but possible.
2. Big Bang punch >= Ko. This would mean Ko is defendable by normal methods. Kurapika can also control his chains at the same time he's defending (he made them disappear) so he didn't need Ko to defend.

By the way, just because an attacker is using Ko doensn't mean you've to stand there and let him hit you. Ubogin was going for Kurapika's back spine. Looking at the damage done, that would've been enough to paralyze him if it connected. But Kurapika doesn't have to stand still. Even if Kurapika took more damage, the maximum damage that could happen is he loses his arm completely, which would suck, but it wouldn't stop his counterattack.

Rock is basically the same as big bang punch. Its a nen charged punch which is practically the definition of rock. You have to remember kurapica has his emperor time mode which apparently grants him 100% of all categories and stronger nen (there is no justification for him to have the same physical capacities as uvo otherwise considering gon and killua are more talented at nen and learned at pretty much the same time and they could still not even keep up with the ryodan).

Also, I would think the effect of uvo's rock is what is to be expected though. Kurapica defended with a reinforced arm and he still got his arm broken. He probably did not use all of his aura which would explain why his arm still got broken.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Kurapika's ability does not avoid the level penalty, only power penalty. He's still 60% Reinforcement level * 100% Reinforcement power. Otherwise he wouldn't even take any damage from the Big Bang punch.

Kurapika is always viewed as a comparable level threat to the Spiders. That's why the Spiders wanted to avoid confrontation with him in the first place. Presumably Ubogin is stronger than him physically, but it's not a meaningful amount. Kurapika can fight Ubogin at 50% AP output without taking any damage. That'd imply he has at least 75% the physical strength compared to Ubogin even if you assume he's just 100%/100% on Reinforcement. Since he still takes a level penalty for reinforcement, that means he has to have 93.75% (1.5/1.6) the base physical strength compared to Ubogin. Now, he still takes significant damage from Ubogin's attack since he has a 60% level penalty to Reinforcement, but the damage he takes is not really significant in the world of HXH.

 

[kkck]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

^I have no idea of what you are talking about with the first two lines, couldn't make any sense of it. The whole idea of emperor time is that he could use 100% of all categories. I don't see how a power and level penalty would differ from each other.

The way I saw it kurapica is only strong against the spiders. I don't see how he could have realisically gotten that strong under normal circumstances otherwise. I don't think it is possible to get as strong as the spiders, kurapica pulled it off but only against those enemies.

 

[Phantron]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Remember way back in the final Hunter exam, we're shown a scene where Hisoka fights Kurapika, and both look hurt and Hisoka announced he gave up. Throughout most of the exam, it appears Kurapika is capable of fighting Hisoka assuming Hisoka doesn't use aura. So while of course Hisoka won't actually lose to him, their physical abilities should be comparable. Hisoka recruited Kurapika to help him isolate Kuroro. We know Kuroro generally has at least 2 guys besides him. So if Hisoka doesn't think Kurapika can help him take out those 2 guys around Kuroro, why would he even attempt to recruit him? Since Kurapika doesn't trust Hisoka either, it's unlikely he told him exactly what his ability are. For example he might say, "I got an ability that can control an enemy' but no way Kurapika will tell him the exact details of Judgment Chain or Chain Jail. So Hisoka has limited knowledge of what Kurapika can do, aura-wise, but he has to feel confident that this is someone who can help him, so there's no way Kurapika's overall power can be significantly weaker than the average Spider.

---------- Post added at 08:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

Rock is basically the same as big bang punch. Its a nen charged punch which is practically the definition of rock. You have to remember kurapica has his emperor time mode which apparently grants him 100% of all categories and stronger nen (there is no justification for him to have the same physical capacities as uvo otherwise considering gon and killua are more talented at nen and learned at pretty much the same time and they could still not even keep up with the ryodan).

Also, I would think the effect of uvo's rock is what is to be expected though. Kurapica defended with a reinforced arm and he still got his arm broken. He probably did not use all of his aura which would explain why his arm still got broken.

Chain Jail is the only move that works only on Spiders. Kurapika didn't use it against Ubogin until the very end (or rather just missed). Now without the Chain Jail he'd probably have lost eventually, but it's not like he can't put up a fight. Since Chain Jail actually did 0 damage to Ubogin until the final time he caught him, it's not like outcome would've been any worse without Chain Jail. Kurapika could still materialize some generic weaker Chains, and Ubogin would still avoid them all the time because he's not stupid. Ubogin also praised Kurapika's ability to withstand his Big Bang punch, which has nothing to do with any 'only against Spiders' ability. Scarlet Eyes is not a condition that only works on Spiders. He said he can activated it on his own (slowly). It just happens the Spiders do trigger Scarlet Eyes immediately, but it's not a power that only works on them.

Refer to the Judgment Chain discussion Kurapika has. He can only use level 4 Emission when his max aura level is 10, even with Scarlet Eyes. But without Scarlet Eyes, he wouldn't even be able to use level 4 Emission reliably. Normally he is level 4 Emission with 40% the power compared to a true Emission user of same level. In Scarlet Eyes he is a level 4 emission with 100% the power compared to a true Emission user of same level. But a true Emission user would be at level 10, not 4.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

Chain Jail is the only move that works only on Spiders. Kurapika didn't use it against Ubogin until the very end (or rather just missed). Now without the Chain Jail he'd probably have lost eventually, but it's not like he can't put up a fight. Since Chain Jail actually did 0 damage to Ubogin until the final time he caught him, it's not like outcome would've been any worse without Chain Jail. Kurapika could still materialize some generic weaker Chains, and Ubogin would still avoid them all the time because he's not stupid. Ubogin also praised Kurapika's ability to withstand his Big Bang punch, which has nothing to do with any 'only against Spiders' ability. Scarlet Eyes is not a condition that only works on Spiders. He said he can activated it on his own (slowly). It just happens the Spiders do trigger Scarlet Eyes immediately, but it's not a power that only works on them..

Dammit, read the damn manga.

Kurapika SAID he already had his chain jail around Ubogin before he said 'going at maximum power', but it was under IN.

As such, it's pretty clear that he never withstand Ubo's Big Bang impact- just a version of it that was being muted by Chain Jail, but not under complete Zetsu.

It's also been said lots of times Zetsu can be incomplete.

 

[kkck]

Re: Aura combat thoughts

I don't think kurapica started the effect of the chain until he made it visible. Uvo was able to use his big bang punch and get past kurapica's nen defense to break his arm. Such a thing would not have been possible if the chain had its effect on as uvo would have been in a forced zetsu state which would make any use of big bang impact impossible. I doubt uvo would have broken kurapica's nen guarded arm with his physical strength alone.

Can anyone translate the databook entries for netero and hyakushiki kannon? I still don't think it would make sense that his physical condition deteriorated to the point where using emission, transformation and manipulation, or conjuration and manipulation would be stronger than his enhancing (its not like netero's physical condition was bad either and even then enhancing techniques have a multiplier when it comes to increasing power). That would only leave an acquired specialization which would not be strange considering the madness netero sank himself into. Anyways, I am interested in what the databook says about netero.