Discussion About Aura Combat & How Nen Works

[Reddington]

Coming to BS No.3 - Hatsu (Manipulation, Conjuration & especially Specialization)

 

[Copy Panda]

You have problems with those types of hatsu?

 

[Master OZ]

I didn´t participate in the Zetsu and In debate, because I already explained myself and we would be in circles. In short, I agree with Reddington.

Talented people release large amounts of aura when doing something they're passionate about, even when they don't know anything about Nen. Nen enhances physical performance such as kicking, punching, jumping running etc. Even sight, when seeing far away objects. Intellectual performance? Nope. Komugi was a natural gungi genius. When your eyesight gets enhanced, you should be able to see things more clearly, distant objects will seem near; but you won't be able to see 'invisible' things.

Today we do not know how thinking works from biomechanical standpoint, but it could be plausible to enhance thinking by enhancing work of neurotransmitters, creation of specific neurons and pathways between them, but that would be more of a Specialization Hatsu.

Seeing is basically perceiving light so in order to see invisible things you need to put them in a light that you can perceive or augment your receptors to percieve the light refracting form the object.

Again, talented people release large amounts of aura when they're in the zone. Kumogi is a genius, she's never met a stronger opponent than Merium in gungi. She's never lost a game because she always finds a way to push her boundaries. She was in the zone, that's why she was releasing aura during the game.

Why can't Nen enhance the human sight so that one can see uv light? Because you can't enhance what isn't there in the first place. You can't enhance your hearing if you're deaf to begin with.

Could you tell me where you got that idea? Just because it was not shown doesn´t mean it is impossible in that system.

True, enhancing something that is not there is impossible, but we do have sight receptors in eyes so augmenting their functionality IS within Enhancer framework.

the capacity of your brain can be enhanced, which includes you senses.

Just a slight nitpick; As far as I know brain is not a sensory organ but an organ that collects, interprets and reacts to sensoric stimuli sent from the sensoric receptors.

But toagshi himself was never incosistent in how nen can be used.

Well then sir, you could surely explain how Killua´s ability to transmute his aura into electricity (but still being his aura) allows him to recharge his aura from the real electricity.

Also you could explain how come Gon with Gyou could not see all threads of Hisoka but Killua with Gyou could?

Coming to BS No.3 - Hatsu (Manipulation, Conjuration & especially Specialization)

I hope you will be more detailed and eloquent on this topic.

 

[Reddington]

Today we do not know how thinking works from biomechanical standpoint, but it could be plausible to enhance thinking by enhancing work of neurotransmitters, creation of specific neurons and pathways between them, but that would be more of a Specialization Hatsu.

I guess you're right on that point.

Seeing is basically perceiving light so in order to see invisible things you need to put them in a light that you can perceive or augment your receptors to percieve the light refracting form the object.

You know how infrared cameras work, right? We humans can only see a very small part of the electromagnetic spectrum (visible spectrum). The camera detects infrared light and then translates it into visible light so that you could be able to see it. So basically you're not seeing infrared light, you're seeing an image of it in normal visible light. So if an object is invisible, it means that all visible light just go through it, so there is literally no way to see that object. Augmenting receptors? Clever, but unfortunately things don't work that way, it isn't a software that you could just upgrade any time you want to; that kind of adjustment could only be done from a genetic level. 1- You can't just change the very nature of your receptors and then unchange it when you're done. 2- That is not enhancement, you know that when you enhance something, you improve its quality, you don't add another property to it.. 3- You can't just change it that easily using simple aura (Gyo).

Well then sir, you could surely explain how Killua´s ability to transmute his aura into electricity (but still being his aura) allows him to recharge his aura from the real electricity.

Good point.

Coming to BS No.3 - Hatsu (Manipulation, Conjuration & especially Specialization)

Honestly, I don't want to get into that topic at the moment. I'll try my best to make it as understandable as possible when the time comes.

 

[Master OZ]

I guess you're right on that point.

You know how infrared cameras work, right? We humans can only see a very small part of the electromagnetic spectrum (visible spectrum). The camera detects infrared light and then translates it into visible light so that you could be able to see it. So basically you're not seeing infrared light, you're seeing an image of it in normal visible light. So if an object is invisible, it means that all visible light just go through it, so there is literally no way to see that object. Augmenting receptors? Clever, but unfortunately things don't work that way, it isn't a software that you could just upgrade any time you want to; that kind of adjustment could only be done from a genetic level.

Well, I have to remind you that Nen is a somewhat magical power so maybe it could be possible with a little suspension of disbelief, although I know that this kind of explanation is lazy. For example you could use Nen for continuous longitudinal exposure of your receptors and enhancing their adaptive qualities to eventually be able to see your desired wavelength. Or conjure up a camera that can do it for you .

1- You can't just change the very nature of your receptors and then unchange it when you're done.

Actually you could do that. When you infuse them with Nen, they become specially receptive to that wavelength and when you take Nen away, then they cease being receptive. Their ability to percieve that wavelength would be activated by your Nen.

2- That is not enhancement, you know that when you enhance something, you improve its quality, you don't add another property to it..

Enhancement is the ability to use aura to increase the natural abilities of an object or one's own body. In case of sight there is no "best" wavelength, just a spectrum you can work with, so by changing the receptiveness you would not add some other property.

3- You can't just change it that easily using simple aura (Gyo).

That is true, it would be some special ability, because the extent of training to attain it would basically constitute an ability.

Honestly, I don't want to get into that topic at the moment. I'll try my best to make it as understandable as possible when the time comes.

Take your time or not. I wanted to post about metric discrepancies of Nen system but eventually gave up as the effort was not worth it (and also Knuckle's explanations if taken at a face value would need serious mathematical background to even READ the stuff, and some improvements to supplement it in right areas would basically made it my work about Nen which might not be what Togashi meant by Knuckle's proxy).

 

[Reddington]

Well, I have to remind you that Nen is a somewhat magical power so maybe it could be possible with a little suspension of disbelief, although I know that this kind of explanation is lazy. For example you could use Nen for continuous longitudinal exposure of your receptors and enhancing their adaptive qualities to eventually be able to see your desired wavelength. Or conjure up a camera that can do it for you .

Nice one. That's one of the issues on Hatsu that I want to talk about, hopefully soon.

Actually you could do that. When you infuse them with Nen, they become specially receptive to that wavelength and when you take Nen away, then they cease being receptive. Their ability to percieve that wavelength would be activated by your Nen.

Enhancement is the ability to use aura to increase the natural abilities of an object or one's own body. In case of sight there is no "best" wavelength, just a spectrum you can work with, so by changing the receptiveness you would not add some other property.

How can Nen activate an ability that wasn't there to begin with. And just so you know, Nen can't do it anyway; the photoreceptor proteins in sight receptors could only detect visible light, and changing their nature isn't that easy.

Take your time or not. I wanted to post about metric discrepancies of Nen system but eventually gave up as the effort was not worth it (and also Knuckle's explanations if taken at a face value would need serious mathematical background to even READ the stuff, and some improvements to supplement it in right areas would basically made it my work about Nen which might not be what Togashi meant by Knuckle's proxy).

I see what you mean, but I'll try my best anyway.

That is true, it would be some special ability, because the extent of training to attain it would basically constitute an ability.

What do you mean? It is an ability, but one that uses simple raw aura. If that could change the nature of your sight receptors that easily, what keeps you from changing into a totally different being the moment you release aura.

 

[shionoro]

Why would nen not be able to change give you an ability which was not there to begin with?
Asi explained, nen can alter your brain processes obviously, so it is not out of question to alter your seeing.

There could aswell be a nen ability to make you able to see ultraviolet light or xrays.
It does not contradict anything which was said in the story or implied in the story at all.

You main point is that it was not explained how it works that focussing your nen in your eyes makes you able to see things you could not see before.

But that is, at best, unexplained, no contrafiction or flaw.

 

[tupadre97]

Well then sir, you could surely explain how Killua´s ability to transmute his aura into electricity (but still being his aura) allows him to recharge his aura from the real electricity.

Also you could explain how come Gon with Gyou could not see all threads of Hisoka but Killua with Gyou could?

Well apparently being able to transmute an element from your own aura can be reversed so you can turn natural elements into your own aura as well.

And as for gon and zushi not seeing all the strands is because their gyo wasn't refined enough to enable their eyes to see all the strands. Its been stated by Biscuit that Killua is better at aura control so it makes sense that his gyo would be more refined and focused than gon's.

As for in itself i don't believe it's a mind force nen ability but rather a nen of the flame ability. Like how Wing expressed his will to kill Killua thru his ren In is essentially the opposite. A suppression of nen through will alone and not through the mind force ability of zetsu.

 

[Phantron]

Originally there is various levels of refinement of Gyo versus In, like a newbie's Gyo might be able to see through a newbie's In but not a master's In. It's not unlike how something like En can be more refined, like when Meryem uses his En the second time he picked up footsteps that he didn't sense the first time because he's increased his precision between the two times he used En. However, Togashi quickly realized that this becomes very stupid and never bothered to go back to this again, and for a good reason. Forget all the cute combat tricks. All you have to do is put In around any Emission attack (or you can cheat like Zeno and call a Transform attack a ranged attack by attaching it to your hand). Just like how Jedis always block blaster bolts with their eyes open, for all the fancy talk about using aura for perception we see that people most definitely relies on their eyes to block/dodge stuff. Well, if you can't see through a guy's In you can't dodge his ranged attacks and then you're dead. So all combat will instantly end if a guy has a higher level of In compared to your Gyo. Now that'd be unbelievably stupid.

So now we just have anything beyond the most rudimentary Gyo can always see through any level of mastery In (Meleoron's ability would be considered a Hatsu and not subject to this relationship, which also shows how overpowered someone can be when they can attack unseen), and that maintaining Gyo is so trivial that nobody would be dumb enough to waste their aura on In because it's understood your opponent, unless he's induced by plot to suddenly forget stuff like this, will always be able to see through it.

 

[shionoro]

We might be a bit too used to geniusses fighting due to the ant arc.
I think Togashi still stands by the principle that people who are in panic lose their focus and cannot maintain their nen powers or gyo.
It is just that the story proceeded so far that most of the nen users we see are the elite.

Even in GI, biscuit trained gon and killuah on always using gyo in doubt because they did not uphold it nonstop.

So, i think there is a point in using In as a first strike attack when noone uses gyo.
For example, if you create a weapon with ur nen and act friendly towards another nen user so that he does not suspect you and won't use gyo, it makes sense for you to hide it for a surprise strike.

 

[Phantron]

The problem is if you don't use Gyo you'd literally be too dumb live in the world of HXH. Let's say I materialized a sword. I made it invisible with In in mid battle, and you, for whatever reason, didn't have Gyo on all the time. In that split second you would lose track of my sword and would be in a huge disadvantageous position. I mean they talk about how turning out the lights confused the Spiders for basically just one second and that was enough for a surprise attack. Just going from no Gyo to realizing that you need to use Gyo is likely going to take longer than that, because again that's roughly comparable to thinking 'what's going on?' and you'd just die in the time it takes you to react if Gyo is not always on. And if Gyo is always on, there's literally no reason to ever use In, and the later fights in HXH pretty much has this assumption built in. It's the same lines about how Zeno talked about how Netero's aura is completely unpredictable and yet that turned out to be completely irrelevant since his Hatsu is based on being so fast that your opponent can't possibly react to it anyway. It's the same deal because if being unpredictable with Ryu gives you a significant tactical advantage then all fights will be decided to just look at who has better mastery of Ryu. In fact they could just get a scouter and two guys compare their proficiency at certain basic concepts that's supposed to be make a huge difference and if they're not equal, the guy with the higher stats automatically wins and the guy with the lower stats just runs for his life, begs for mercy, or just flat out dies and save the trouble of the actual fight.

Of course Hatsu is kind of a catch all for all these things, though at least in theory Hatsus are supposed to have counters. It's not clear what you're supposed to do about Netero's Hatsu, for example, since based on the way it's depicted no human can possibly defeat it so the notion he's not still the #1 is ridiculous, though at least it's easier to fill in the blanks later on Hatsu, whereas if someone has a better In or a better Ryu that's very absolute. Meleoron's Hatsu would be something that could defeat Gyo/In in terms of detection, and again it's not exactly fair, but Hatsus are probably not meant to be fair and you can at least always say 'well only Meleoron can learn this ability so it's only overpowered for him', as opposed to something like Ryu where if mastery of Ryu confers significant advantage then that'd apply to every fight in the story and the only way you'd even have a fight is if two characters have exactly the same level of mastery!

 

[Master OZ]

Well apparently being able to transmute an element from your own aura can be reversed so you can turn natural elements into your own aura as well.

And as for gon and zushi not seeing all the strands is because their gyo wasn't refined enough to enable their eyes to see all the strands. Its been stated by Biscuit that Killua is better at aura control so it makes sense that his gyo would be more refined and focused than gon's.

As for in itself i don't believe it's a mind force nen ability but rather a nen of the flame ability. Like how Wing expressed his will to kill Killua thru his ren In is essentially the opposite. A suppression of nen through will alone and not through the mind force ability of zetsu.

I think we reached that concession some pages back, but still it is a bit escapist approach.

See that is the thing. Some pages back I asked what constitues this refinement? When Gyo is introduced, it is nothing more than - gather your Nen in one place, if in eyes - then you can see through In. No degree of Gyo or how are they differentiated was ever stated.

Now for all the quarrels we had over this... I think I can live with THIS.

It's not unlike how something like En can be more refined, like when Meryem uses his En the second time he picked up footsteps that he didn't sense the first time because he's increased his precision between the two times he used En.

Could you explain WHY he couldn´t sense them before and HOW did he improve his En? That is important right now. What natural deficiencies En has to be improved upon?

The problem is if you don't use Gyo you'd literally be too dumb live in the world of HXH.

You could fight with En on.

And if Gyo is always on, there's literally no reason to ever use In, and the later fights in HXH pretty much has this assumption built in.

Ah but there is a reason. If you use a detectable In and a superior In on other parts, you can trap your enemy quite easily.

It's the same lines about how Zeno talked about how Netero's aura is completely unpredictable and yet that turned out to be completely irrelevant since his Hatsu is based on being so fast that your opponent can't possibly react to it anyway.

Another dimension to that is that you can´t read his state from his aura alone, also his speed could be irrelevant to beings in DC yet the quality of his aura would prove to be important.

In fact they could just get a scouter and two guys compare their proficiency at certain basic concepts that's supposed to be make a huge difference and if they're not equal, the guy with the higher stats automatically wins and the guy with the lower stats just runs for his life, begs for mercy, or just flat out dies and save the trouble of the actual fight.

That is how it would be if it weren´ t for the abilities .... or intelligence ... or terrain .. or planninng and strategy. Why did the clearly superior Genthru lost to Gon again?

It's not clear what you're supposed to do about Netero's Hatsu, for example, since based on the way it's depicted no human can possibly defeat it so the notion he's not still the #1 is ridiculous, though at least it's easier to fill in the blanks later on Hatsu, whereas if someone has a better In or a better Ryu that's very absolute.

The point of creating an ability is to create one that does NOT depend on your enemy, your situation, your condition and your surroundings. In that sense Netero has good ability, although it is too big and appears only behind him. If you think about defeating Netero´s ability, then you think wrong. In fact there are many ways to defeat that ability, regardless of whether they are achievable at the moment. But the main point of battle is to use your ability to defeat your enemy. If you want to defeat an ability, then that is not always possible and since Netero is quite skilled and experienced, then it is even harder. Killing Netero without defeating his ability is basically what happened in the end, Netero was bodied by someone able to read his attacks and resilient enough to neutralize the blows. King didn´t even use his Nen ability or aura, just martial arts.

 

[tupadre97]

Originally there is various levels of refinement of Gyo versus In, like a newbie's Gyo might be able to see through a newbie's In but not a master's In. It's not unlike how something like En can be more refined, like when Meryem uses his En the second time he picked up footsteps that he didn't sense the first time because he's increased his precision between the two times he used En. However, Togashi quickly realized that this becomes very stupid and never bothered to go back to this again, and for a good reason. Forget all the cute combat tricks. All you have to do is put In around any Emission attack (or you can cheat like Zeno and call a Transform attack a ranged attack by attaching it to your hand). Just like how Jedis always block blaster bolts with their eyes open, for all the fancy talk about using aura for perception we see that people most definitely relies on their eyes to block/dodge stuff. Well, if you can't see through a guy's In you can't dodge his ranged attacks and then you're dead. So all combat will instantly end if a guy has a higher level of In compared to your Gyo. Now that'd be unbelievably stupid.

So now we just have anything beyond the most rudimentary Gyo can always see through any level of mastery In (Meleoron's ability would be considered a Hatsu and not subject to this relationship, which also shows how overpowered someone can be when they can attack unseen), and that maintaining Gyo is so trivial that nobody would be dumb enough to waste their aura on In because it's understood your opponent, unless he's induced by plot to suddenly forget stuff like this, will always be able to see through it.

I don't see what point u are trying to get across. Yes if someones In is good enough versus your nen sense they would be very dangerous and you wouldn't stand a chance against them but thats just a discrepancy in power that you'd have to train to overcome. I don't see how that's "unbelievably stupid", you're just weak. That's what's the purpose of training is for and knowing when to pick your fights which is the essence of hxh.

---------- Post added at 02:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------

The problem is if you don't use Gyo you'd literally be too dumb live in the world of HXH. Let's say I materialized a sword. I made it invisible with In in mid battle, and you, for whatever reason, didn't have Gyo on all the time. In that split second you would lose track of my sword and would be in a huge disadvantageous position. I mean they talk about how turning out the lights confused the Spiders for basically just one second and that was enough for a surprise attack. Just going from no Gyo to realizing that you need to use Gyo is likely going to take longer than that, because again that's roughly comparable to thinking 'what's going on?' and you'd just die in the time it takes you to react if Gyo is not always on. And if Gyo is always on, there's literally no reason to ever use In, and the later fights in HXH pretty much has this assumption built in. It's the same lines about how Zeno talked about how Netero's aura is completely unpredictable and yet that turned out to be completely irrelevant since his Hatsu is based on being so fast that your opponent can't possibly react to it anyway. It's the same deal because if being unpredictable with Ryu gives you a significant tactical advantage then all fights will be decided to just look at who has better mastery of Ryu. In fact they could just get a scouter and two guys compare their proficiency at certain basic concepts that's supposed to be make a huge difference and if they're not equal, the guy with the higher stats automatically wins and the guy with the lower stats just runs for his life, begs for mercy, or just flat out dies and save the trouble of the actual fight.

Of course Hatsu is kind of a catch all for all these things, though at least in theory Hatsus are supposed to have counters. It's not clear what you're supposed to do about Netero's Hatsu, for example, since based on the way it's depicted no human can possibly defeat it so the notion he's not still the #1 is ridiculous, though at least it's easier to fill in the blanks later on Hatsu, whereas if someone has a better In or a better Ryu that's very absolute. Meleoron's Hatsu would be something that could defeat Gyo/In in terms of detection, and again it's not exactly fair, but Hatsus are probably not meant to be fair and you can at least always say 'well only Meleoron can learn this ability so it's only overpowered for him', as opposed to something like Ryu where if mastery of Ryu confers significant advantage then that'd apply to every fight in the story and the only way you'd even have a fight is if two characters have exactly the same level of mastery!

Dude what are you talking about? Gyo is not a one shot answer for In. Just using gyo doesn't automatically give you the ability to see objects hidden with In. The real issue is nen sense, the ability just to sense nen in general. If your nen sense is garbage it doesn't matter if you use gyo, you still won't be able to see the nen just like when gon and zushi couldn't see all of hisoka's strings. Also not everyone is taught the same when it comes to nen. Students of the shingen ryu school of nen (netero's school) are taught to always use gyo but other schools may not teach that way. Some may only teach gyo use every once in a while, en use over gyo use, or just relying on nen sense. Most nen users probably never even had formal instruction like the phantom troupe which would explain why Uvo didn't use gyo during his fight with Kurapika (who also didn't use gyo the entire fight even tho no one mentions he didn't either). Nen is not just as simple as use gyo=win or use In=win. Just using In doesn't guarantee your nen will be hidden the same way using gyo doesn't automatically mean you can see In. Neither ability is absolute. If they were they would contradict everything we've learned about nen that we've read from this series.

You also mention something about having better stats is an automatic win but that's just false. Just look at Alluka. He is a just a regular little kid but he has the most hax op hatsu in the entire series. He can literally do anything someone just needs to tell him what to do. Or take killua he's weaker than a lot of ppl but his hatsu godspeed can make him fast enough to defeat most ppl in the verse. No fight in hxh is as simple as better stats equal win. Otherwise pitou would have just instantly decapitated gon instead of fearing he had some sort of hidden power.

Also you mention that hatsu in theory should have counters. No just no. Hatsu depends on the character of the person. The only way hatsu can have a counter is if a person specifically makes a counter for a certain hatsu.

---------- Post added at 02:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 PM ----------

You could fight with En on.
.

You can't fight with En on because it spreads your nen to far from your body. Its essentially the opposite of ken. It sacrifices power to sense objects. Thats the reason why after ppl use in the retract their aura back into ken like when pitou sensed zeno. The only person to use En while fighting was Nobunaga because his En didn't extend very far only to the edge of his sword's range. Otherwise most expereinced nen users would probably use En in pulses like Kite was doing.

 

[XXGenesis]

I'm currently collecting quotes from characters who have commented on Nen battles....Most of what I'm coming across are some familiar points that I always push given the acute complexity on how Nen battles go down and who's stronger than who even though through certain strategies overall power doesn't matter.....But going over G.I & seeing how weak Killua & Gon actually where in A Nen battle always bring me back to why did Togashi make Kirapicka so unreasonably strong in such a short period of time.....Even with the hate boost it was too much in comparison to vets and mid tier professional

 

[Copy Panda]

I mean, the show went out of its way to explain and justify it through elaborating that he's only strong versus a specific set of people (not to mention the eyes), and you're still put off by that? kek

 

[XXGenesis]

I mean, the show went out of its way to explain and justify it through elaborating that he's only strong versus a specific set of people (not to mention the eyes), and you're still put off by that? kek

I ALWAYS been....I can't shake it, I even started to accept it & defend his power boost & skill level...But if given further thought and comparison to the facts of how Nen skills are developed....He's too adept with it for such a short time..My fictional suspense of belief can't really settle with it however it is already written in stone...But it's juss one of the minor flaws or plot holes so to say of HxH which I personally only have 3 qualms about 1.Kurapicka's adept Nen control & 2.Kite's Ressurection which Gould of just been because he had stong Nen & the Queen chimera reincarnates ppl into ants.....The explanation of his Nen ability to Ressurection is bull...& Silva's granny butler turnin vehicles doesn't make sense to me

 

[Phantron]

Kurapika is way overpowered as a character. I think people are getting confused into thinking he's supposed to be on Gon/Killua level, even though he's closer to a Super Saiyan in terms of where he ranks relative to normal human beings. Keep in mind originally Kurapika was supposed to have killed half of the Spiders and then escaped just fine while Hisoka contributed minimally. That is, we don't see any of the guys he was supposed to have killed have a line like 'watch out for the clown' so we can assume Kurapika did all the dirty work. We see that Kuroro still was going to have his aura sealed and need to find an aura remover, which means Kurapika didn't die (if he died, his ability will not be removeable by Abengane). We'd expect the Spiders to start going out in pairs (relatively few of them go solo to begin with) after having guys randomly picked off by the Chain Assassin, so this implies Kurapika was more than capable of going 1on2 and still win (again Hisoka must not have contributed anything meaningful or his involvement would've been foretold via Neon's ability). And this is while using an ability that's basically garbage/overkill as his primary attack ability, Chain Jail, as we've been told repeatedly that you don't need to risk your life for an ability that instantly incapacitates someone (e.g. Shalunark's antennae can instantly control someone if they've an open wound and certainly is nowhere as risky). He's literally doing it just because he can. Almost certainly Kuroro rearranged the Spiders in teams of 3 after seeing the fortunes told because it must occurred to him that this Chain Assassin was quite capable of going 1on2 and still win and having 3 guys is probably what actually stopped Kurapika from successfully carrying out his plans.

Even back in the Hunter exam, prior to the final exam one of the guys remarked that Kurapika seems to be the guy with the best overall stats, even over Hisoka. Yes Hisoka is likely better at killing people efficiently, but there's nothing particularly wrong this statement. Kurapika did fight Hisoka to a draw and Leorio was surprised that Kurapika would even let Hisoka forfeit, so no I don't think it's a case where Hisoka was holding back and Kurapika somehow unable to figure this out. Okay back then aura didn't exist as a concept, but since Kurapika can't use aura at that point it's still an even fight.

Out of the main characters in HXH, Kurapika is particularly unapologetic regarding his heritage. His eyes give him abilities that no normal human could possibly have and he's not afraid to use his awesome powers to completely dismantle the opposition. Unlike Gon and others, he's also got all his abilities already planned out even before he knew aura as a concept. That is, he obviously must have thought about what kind of abilities would prove handy to carry out his revenge and he even knew what school he wanted to be in, as opposed to Gon and Killua who are just making stuff up in terms of their ability does on the fly. So the fact that he quickly mastered everything he needed for his revenge isn't particularly surprising. If he isn't so overpowered Hisoka would be insane to think about betraying the Spiders with just one guy's help. Where HXH breaks down is somehow attempting to make Kurapika look roughly equal to the rest of the main characters. Gon, Killua, and Leorio put together would have an awfully hard time defeating any Spider who is meant to fight (so not counting people like Shizuku who has negligible fighting ability), while Kurapika almost certainly can win 1on2 comfortably as it'd be impossible for the fortune telling part to make sense if he can't pull that off unless you think Spiders are inflicted with the stupidity virus where they randomly split up to 1 person units despite having people randomly killed off by a mysterious assassin, including Ubogin who is obviously the 1on1 specialist in the group.

Put it another way, if Uber Gon represents the limit of how strong the main characters could become, then Kurapika is by far the closest character to that level and the others aren't even close. How can he not be? His heritage is arguably the best out of all the main characters (we're told the eyes makes him quantatitively stronger than a normal person, not just the generic 'OMG this guy has crazy potentials' deal), and he's pretty much dedicated all his energy and time into carrying his revenge. I think it's a huge mistake to make it look like Gon and Killua can even remotely compete with Kurapika just because they did some typical Shonen training and some more typical Shonen battle-to-the-death = mega power improvement. If the main characters had a reunion and told about their adventures, I can see Kurapika going 'how did you possibly beat Pitou with such a weak condition???' By the way, mortgaging your future fighting a guy who you otherwise have no possibility of winning is indeed a very weak condition because you'd have died anyway and would have no future. It's nothing compared to Kurapika who is heavily favored against the Spiders 1on1 even without Chain Jail (because incapacitate abilities aren't hard to learn) but still took instant death as a condition anyway.

I'm guessing Kurapika was intended to be a different kind of protagonist, but ultimately it just didn't work out which is why he was banished from the main HXH plot for a very long time until the rest of the main characters are remotely in the same league as him.

 

[tupadre97]

I'm currently collecting quotes from characters who have commented on Nen battles....Most of what I'm coming across are some familiar points that I always push given the acute complexity on how Nen battles go down and who's stronger than who even though through certain strategies overall power doesn't matter.....But going over G.I & seeing how weak Killua & Gon actually where in A Nen battle always bring me back to why did Togashi make Kirapicka so unreasonably strong in such a short period of time.....Even with the hate boost it was too much in comparison to vets and mid tier professional

Kurapika became so strong mainly because of emperor time and genetics. It seems in HxH there is a subtle theme of genetics playing a large part in nen users being strong and having great potential. All three of the strongest main characters come from presumably families with powerful nen users. Killua comes from the powerful zoldyck assassin family said to have most potential ever in the families history. Gon's father is of course Ging who is a top five nen user and Don freecss is his great great (or whatever) grandfather who is what overs 300 years old and possibly one of the original hunters (given that the hunter exams started almost 300 years ago). And the Kurta clan apparently were known as demons and its very likely their eyes changing colors also changed their nen just like kurapika and made them stronger which is why the uvo said they were strong when they fought them.

From that aspect its not surprising to me how strong ppl can be in this series. Hopefully togashi goes more into the history of how knowledge of nen developed around the world and how the hunter association came to exist in the hxh world.

@Phantron
Kurapika is op but he can't 1v2 anybody in the troupe. For example there's no way he could beat Feitan and Phinks together by himself. The way I see it Hisoka would have just tricked troupe members into 1 on 1 encounters with Kurapika by giving away their locations and setting it up. And then once half the troupe is gone Kurapika seals Chrollo before the rest of the troupe can catch him.

Also togashi does not need to make Kurapika equal to anybody. Idk why ppl believe anything has to be equal. There have been huge powergaps in HxH ever since Hisoka was introduced. Every single arc their is a character that is massively stronger than our protagonists yet the story moves on. Nothing about nen or how the story is told says that anything needs to be balanced it just is because togashi is a great writer. Of course yorknew gon killua and leorio would have trouble beating a spider because they have no idea how nen fighting works as they don't understand advance concepts like ken, kou and ryu.

Kurapika being the closest to Adult gon? Lol good one. Kurapika isn't even stonger than Hisoka. There's no way he could beat the likes of Razor, Biscuit, and Kite let alone the royal guards. His heritage makes him powerful but Killua has already surpassed him (and u wanna talk about someone being op its killua, combined with his allukas wishes he's the most powerful character in the series) and Gon's heritage is much more powerful being the son of Ging and the descendant of Don freecss. Also there's no way Kurapkia would say gon's condition was weak. Gon's condition is much more harsh than Kurapika since it basically turned gon into a vegetable. At least Kurapika would get to die instantly. Killua and Gon simply have more potential than Kurapika. Killua already surpassed him and Gon will too as evidenced by his fight with pitou its just inevitable.

 

[Claver]

I love Hunter x Hunter and I think the nen/hatsu system is probably the greatest power system invented in all of fiction. Having said that, the one thing that really bothers me is IN. It doesn't make much sense to me and, like someone above said, it makes it so that the logical thing to do in that universe would be to use Gyo all the time since the risk of getting killed by an invisible attack would be too great.

Take Kurapikas fight against Uvogin for example. Even if we agree that OP Kurapika can conjure invisible chains, how come Uvogin didn't FEEL the chains the moment kurapika first used them on him?. Why didn't he feel the weight of the chains or perceived them in any way? That was just stupid. Reddington is right about that. The entire IN thing is the biggest flaw of the system.

Another thing I don't like is that the lines between conjuring and emitter seem a little blurred sometimes. Like why is Kunckles Bankrupcy power emitter instead of conjurer? And yeah, I know most powers are like 60% of this and 40% of that but still it seems like the difference between emitters and conjurers is kind of arbitrary.

 

[kkck]

I love Hunter x Hunter and I think the nen/hatsu system is probably the greatest power system invented in all of fiction. Having said that, the one thing that really bothers me is IN. It doesn't make much sense to me and, like someone above said, it makes it so that the logical thing to do in that universe would be to use Gyo all the time since the risk of getting killed by an invisible attack would be too great.

Take Kurapikas fight against Uvogin for example. Even if we agree that OP Kurapika can conjure invisible chains, how come Uvogin didn't FEEL the chains the moment kurapika first used them on him?. Why didn't he feel the weight of the chains or perceived them in any way? That was just stupid. Reddington is right about that. The entire IN thing is the biggest flaw of the system.

Another thing I don't like is that the lines between conjuring and emitter seem a little blurred sometimes. Like why is Kunckles Bankrupcy power emitter instead of conjurer? And yeah, I know most powers are like 60% of this and 40% of that but still it seems like the difference between emitters and conjurers is kind of arbitrary.

I agree about in. It hasn't been explained in a logical way so far so it makes no sense within the context of zetsu. To be fair, gyo is used pretty much like you said. Gon and killua trained to great lengths to make gyo a reflex.

As far as emission/conjuration, the line is not actually blurry. The manga has gone to great lengths to explain how the two are different. One makes real objects, the other is simply nen shaped like objects and so on. The issue in that regard is not in terms of the definition between the two but rather the information we have. We might not know whether something is visible to normal humans for instance unless we are explicitly told. Knuckles nen in that regard is quite blatantly emission. It fits his type, I think we have been told it is not a real object or at least told it is made out of nen and the means by which it works is by being imposed on someone, imposing nen is pretty much the highest degree of emission.