Discussion About multiple Edited Mangas for a single series...

[eni]

Reminder: The Air Gear - good or bad?-discussion is totally OFFTOPIC here. Tastes are different and the topic here is about the "multiple Edited Mangas" issue. You can debate Air Gear in it's discussion thread or via PM.

Also no bashing of manga, groups, mangaka, single persons, ect - come on, you know the deal, guys!

 

[yal]

As my original article is too long to post it here. I will link you up:
The Demise Of Quality Edited Manga Approaching?

I think it summarizes the issue very well, not fully, but the basics and at the same time remains fairly neutral. NO HATING etc.

Feel free to comment on it (anywhere you like) and PM me if you find more grammar/spelling mistakes.

Original article on Manga Underground.

 

[sabret00the]

lol

Most ignorant statement I've read in a long time. Not to mention the rest of your post contradicts it. You essentially post everything I'm going to post below, but trying to make believe that people care about quality.

Majority of the people don't care about quality. They just don't.

If they did, why does SleepyFans, JanimeS, Endless-Abyss and Mahou-X get all of the hits they get? Because they're "quality" releases? Bullshit, it's because they released a chapter of the manga in question first. That's it, that's all.

Why is it SleepyFans' weekly Naruto release threads get 15k+ hits, while JapFlap's weekly Naruto release thread gets in the range of ~1.8k hits?

Because people absolutely love those quality releases, right?

Please. People download the first thing that's out, and only a handful of them care enough to download a version to archive.



No, diverse amounts of different mangas are much, MUCH better than various amount of Edited Mangas for the same thing.

But sure, having 17 Air Gear Edited Mangas is more important than having one or two of those group of people working on a new, unknown manga that may interest people. Nah, that's a horrible idea...

The equation for people caring about manga is SPEED*QUALITY. i.e. If a speed scan comes out, chances are i'll head over to OneManga and read it. Should a quality scan not come out within a couple days of that, i'll download the version posted at OneManga. The desire for quality scans have gone up immensely.

I'm sorry, but I miss the advance here. Just because Japanese is a language were you have to interpret a lot while translating doesn't make it necessary to read it by different translators. If it's a good translator, he will catch the meaning and mood well enough.

Just imagining that I would need to look up any translated comics, books and dubbed movies by different translators to grab the full meaning is tiresome. What a author says can be interpreted often in different ways, yes. Even when you read it in the native language - you yourself can interprete it different in your head. Sometimes books gets re-translated (I remember the issue about the different Tolkien translations here in Germany) for different reason but I don't need to read a manga chapter by X different translators to enjoy it. In fact, many mistakes are being made when translator try to be fast to rival with another group which is a issue with many of the groups that pick up others projects because they're seen as too slow.

Famous example from Naruto: SF translated the 8tails having a seven-bladed sword while every other translator spoke of him haven eight swords. Probably just a typo made in the heat of a fast release but since SF's release was the first, many readers started defending SF's translation which was - looking at the RAWs - simply wrong.

Same with the "Tobi: I am Mandara"-issue we had a few month ago. Even sticking the explanation by an experienced translator about what was wrong in the speedtrans didn't help to whip out the false rumour that was going through the forums for weeks. As GGpX says, people want it fast not the careful done works that take a while longer. That's what eeks me the most when I see a series done by speed- and normal way.

Besides the mistakes, personally, I think that many translations of the same thing confuse more than that they help. Using different terms (often choosed by own taste) - why do I need that? I don't want to have a discussion about a manga and everyone uses different terms, names, spelling just because everyone reads from another translator. Things that get translated by the first (accurate) translator don't need to be 100% right, of course. Everyone can make mistakes. But they set a common standard which I find very important.

Here's an example:
http://www.onemanga.com/Air_Gear/214/05/ versus http://read.mangashare.com/Air-Gear/chapter-214/page004.html

If you look at panel three, they're vastly different between the two different scans and as such vastly affect the storyline as per the fans perception. While i agree it's not optimal for everyone to take interest in the intricacies of the translations. In circles such as MH where debate on the material is encouraged, it can lead to huge frustration.

Funnily enough, i was actually discussing the benefits of Edited Manga groups over official Edited Mangas like Viz/Del-Ray/TokyoPop and even then i feel it's incredibly important to have the Edited Mangas to hand.

Are you out of your mind? There's TONS of new and old unscanlated manga out there, also, TONS of dropped mangas, some for months, some for years, having 2-5 groups per manga would destroy our chances of ever reading some good manga that's out there. So yeah, let's have 2-5 groups do a mostly shitty job on ONE manga, why would they bother with other good stuff that's out there ? There's a big lack of staff members in some groups, we all want more cleaners and typesetters and translators to help us scanlate our stuff and pick up some more and release it as a regular basis. They're just too busy helping out doing the same Edited Manga over and over again.

And as GGpX said, people don't really care about quality, they'll just download the first chapter that's out to satisfy their urge to read the next chapter. I also think that another group should pick up a scanlated manga in case they can do a REMARKABLY better job than the others in a somewhat same amount of time. We don't need 5 variations of translations just because some phrase was a lil off, as eni said, it's tiresome to check all the translations and see which is right anyway. If they want bigger (e)penis, then they can go check their spam in their emails, lots of options there.

As for AirGear, it has a flow and makes sense? The first, like 8 volumes or so were fine, the manga had a pretty decent(ish) plot, but it got ruined more and more to the point where Oh!Great turned the sports manga into a Fantasy-Scifi manga. Next thing I know, fairies will pop out. Actually I haven't been reading it in a while, did they already?

[eni]No bashing the manga, ok? Edited some words out. [/eni]

Don't you feel that your atittude is incredibly selfish? You don't seem to be the biggest fan of Air Gear and thus you feel that the groups Editing it could put their effort to better use. However the fact of the matter is, is that a manga is only as good as it's presence/fans and the manga's you talk of that go unscanlated just never made the cut. I'm not saying shite manga doesn't get done but having five Manga Editors on each project isn't going to hurt the community. It's only going to drive up the quality of said projects. If you want to see a greater distribution of the Manga Editors then that's fine but given that it's not already happening, then it's hardly a loss to the community is it?

 

[eni]

If you look at panel three, they're vastly different between the two different scans and as such vastly affect the storyline as per the fans perception. While i agree it's not optimal for everyone to take interest in the intricacies of the translations. In circles such as MH where debate on the material is encouraged, it can lead to huge frustration.

Funnily enough, i was actually discussing the benefits of Edited Manga groups over official Edited Mangas like Viz/Del-Ray/TokyoPop and even then i feel it's incredibly important to have the Edited Mangas to hand.

Your second link is a page further than necessary, btw: http://read.mangashare.com/Air-Gear/chapter-214/page004.html

I see what you want to say but can you tell with of both translations is closer to the original meaning? Just because you get more info out of two translations doesn't mean that it's more correct. There are translators who add stuff that wasn't there to a text and others translate to literally, to stiff. What you get in the end are two personal interpretations of the same thing but I don't see why I need that to enjoy a story.

As example in Double Arts, I think. I had to laugh about the translators comment that stated that a person was calling another with the name for the first time. The translator replaced the "you" in the chapters before by the name to make it sound more fluent in English. What advance would I have had to read another Edited Manga parallel without this mistake? I could have cared less up till the point where it became important. I laugh about it and now it's fine since I know that most translators do it as a hobby and aren't perfect in what they do (and even professional translators do such mistakes).

For me, as long as meaning and mood is close to what the mangaka had indented it's fine. But I have no way to control this. Still, I don't need to go so much into detail that I need to read several translations just to grab the perfect meaning - in fact, it happened already often enough that the "amateur" translation sounded better than the correct translation although the meaning was actually off.

Another example, the Ducktales comics where translated for many years by the same person into German. She interpreted a lot on her own and her way of translation became very popular. When she died, the quality of the translations dropped a lot to the extend that some fans refuse to buy new volumes. When transfering a language into another, the translator becomes part of the creation process. Even if he tries to get as close as possible, it will never be the same as the original especially not when translating a language like Japanese were you have to read much from the mind - but the way a certain person translates becomes like a handwriting. It becomes part of the story.
That's why I dislike when translators change to much on a project, like e.g. Samurai Deeper Kyo which had a lot different translators working on it already. I like it when it's steady and not changing permanently on terms and wordings, that maybe opens the possibilities of what the mangaka wanted to say but in the end it confuses a lot.

 

[Maxy Barnard]

....... I'm on the side of debate that cares less about multiple Edited Manga groups for a single series, because through and through no-one cares that much. If a series is licensed and released in an accessible form to you, THERE are your HQ scans. Most people are happy enough to just read anything week on week, as long as its scanlated and readable, and gets the poitn across without any completely retarded mistakes. If more groups considered that we'd have an even more diverse amount of series being scanned and everyone would be happy.

Other than those who want HQs of unlicensed series, or who believe they shouldn't pay for something someone's doing for a career. but surely there aren't many people like that eh?

 

[yal]

Read my article? I address some of the points you make and others...

The equation for people caring about manga is SPEED*QUALITY. i.e. If a speed scan comes out, chances are i'll head over to OneManga and read it. Should a quality scan not come out within a couple days of that, i'll download the version posted at OneManga. The desire for quality scans have gone up immensely.

That might be true for you, but not for the MAJORITY of leecher. Download numbers offer enough evidence to support that assumption. Don't assume that just because YOU do it everyone does, because they don't.

Here's an example:
http://www.onemanga.com/Air_Gear/214/05/ versus http://read.mangashare.com/Air-Gear/chapter-214/page005.html

Is it just me or are the two links showing two totally different pages? (thx eni, read eni's comment)

However the fact of the matter is, is that a manga is only as good as it's presence/fans and the manga's you talk of that go unscanlated just never made the cut.

So a manga is only as good as its popularity?! That would mean most of the manga, who won an award (Eisner, Max & Moritz) are actually total crap, as they are often unpopular with the masses. Masses rarely go for quality.

I'm not saying shite manga doesn't get done but having five Manga Editors on each project isn't going to hurt the community. It's only going to drive up the quality of said projects.

Actually, no. Whether it "hurts" the community or NOT is hard, if not impossible, to "measure". However, by applying logic one would come to a different result.
The groups all would want to DIFFERENTIATE themselves from the other groups => they want to make their release "download worthy". You scanlate so people download your releases, not because Edited Manga is so much fun.
Releasing faster than others is the easiest way to get people to download your release. It's also the most cost-efficient, as people won't care much about quality (as download numbers have shown). But faster releases either means a) more people working on it (=drains potential ressources from other groups, who are doing other projects => less manga variaty="hurts" the community) b) less quality. There you go.

If you want to see a greater distribution of the Manga Editors then that's fine but given that it's not already happening, then it's hardly a loss to the community is it?

Could you elaborate your point? I'm not sure I understand...

 

[fxu]

The groups all would want to DIFFERENTIATE themselves from the other groups => they want to make their release "download worthy". You scanlate so people download your releases, not because Edited Manga is so much fun.

I scanlate Psyren for selfish-reasons, I do it for myself to have something good to read in good quality. I seriously could care less about the public, there are other groups that release chapters. But in the other hand, I've read Edited Mangas from other groups that the group I'm in doesn't do, so in some way, I owe something to the community. For providing me great reads from other mangas.


I'm not the spokesperson for Binktopia, but everyone there scanlates what they like and they do it because they like it.... if not, they'll go inactive while still hanging around.

 

[Digital_Eon]

However the fact of the matter is, is that a manga is only as good as it's presence/fans and the manga's you talk of that go unscanlated just never made the cut.

Are you in a Edited Manga group? Just curious, because you don't seem to realise how they work at all.

It's only going to drive up the quality of said projects.

Uh... no, it doesn't. What drives up the quality is having a group that cares about quality work on it, which most often happens if said group just likes the series. If a shitty group increases their quality to be better than another shitty group, that's not really "driving up the quality". Genuinely good groups with good quality Edited Mangas can't get any better and therefore they don't need to do better to attract fans.

 

[wade69]

If they did, why does SleepyFans, JanimeS, Endless-Abyss and Mahou-X get all of the hits they get? Because they're "quality" releases? Bullshit, it's because they released a chapter of the manga in question first. That's it, that's all.

Yes I can admit that many of are projects are of crappy quality and come out fast. BUT! Not all of them are like that, especially Soul Eater and Nagasarete Airantou if anything those two are of higher quality than anything that we release.

 

[sabret00the]

That might be true for you, but not for the MAJORITY of leecher. Download numbers offer enough evidence to support that assumption. Don't assume that just because YOU do it everyone does, because they don't.

So a manga is only as good as its popularity?! That would mean most of the manga, who won an award (Eisner, Max & Moritz) are actually total crap, as they are often unpopular with the masses. Masses rarely go for quality.

Actually, no. Whether it "hurts" the community or NOT is hard, if not impossible, to "measure". However, by applying logic one would come to a different result.
The groups all would want to DIFFERENTIATE themselves from the other groups => they want to make their release "download worthy". You scanlate so people download your releases, not because Edited Manga is so much fun.
Releasing faster than others is the easiest way to get people to download your release. It's also the most cost-efficient, as people won't care much about quality (as download numbers have shown). But faster releases either means a) more people working on it (=drains potential ressources from other groups, who are doing other projects => less manga variaty="hurts" the community) b) less quality. There you go.

Could you elaborate your point? I'm not sure I understand...

In regards to point one. I think when it comes to non-populars (outside of the big shounen five) then the evidence is a lot less clear cut than you think. Outside of titles like Naruto, Bleach, etc. It's less about getting any material first and more about getting quality material to appreciate the work. Not to mention that for some of the fans following a series, if they adopt it through an LQ group, they'll never pine for HQ releases.

In regards to your second query. I'm not saying that a manga is as good as it's popularity. I'm saying that it's as appealing as it's presence. I've picked up countless mangas at MangaShare and wanted to get into them but with irregular releases and what not, they fall by the wayside. However with more presence and thus more customer adoration, the Manga Editors would be inclined to push the series out quicker. Case in point, at least for me; Saki.

In regards to how people get their download counts, you're right it will differ from group to group. Some groups just want the stats while others take pride. However that's a Manga Editor issue. That's not about hurting the community, that's a bigger issue in which there appears to be no pride in groups these days. Look at what happened with Kuu Scans, Sora Scans started doing speedscans and because the material was out there, half the Kuu staff left and some even jumped ship to join Sora. Where is the pride or commitment?

For the point you didn't understand. I'm basically saying that if there's no apple tree planted in the garden behind your house, how can you complain about the lack of apples in your back garden.

Are you in a Edited Manga group? Just curious, because you don't seem to realise how they work at all.

Uh... no, it doesn't. What drives up the quality is having a group that cares about quality work on it, which most often happens if said group just likes the series. If a shitty group increases their quality to be better than another shitty group, that's not really "driving up the quality". Genuinely good groups with good quality Edited Mangas can't get any better and therefore they don't need to do better to attract fans.

A point that i feel is being lost in this thread and maybe that's because i'm not a Manga Editor, is that while everyone talks about greater distribution of groups across projects, everyone appears to be missing the point. not all groups are dedicated or committed. some groups get complacent and slow down releases or drop quality. what happens if one group stops completely? does that mean that all the fans of that series should join the other fans of the world begging on forums for someone to pick up their favourite series? you need multiple groups because as fans you need contingency plans.

But that aside, please enlighten me as to how they work. I'm new to seeing this side of it all, up until now i've been fairly ignorant in just getting to see how things pan out from my side of things.

For your last point, you're right, it takes someone who has a pride in quality to improve things in that regard, but you shouldn't dismiss rivalry. while some groups do go for speed, others go for quality and others are able to go for speed and yet naturally be able to produce a higher quality.

 

[eni]

A point that i feel is being lost in this thread and maybe that's because i'm not a Manga Editor, is that while everyone talks about greater distribution of groups across projects, everyone appears to be missing the point. not all groups are dedicated or committed. some groups get complacent and slow down releases or drop quality. what happens if one group stops completely? does that mean that all the fans of that series should join the other fans of the world begging on forums for someone to pick up their favourite series? you need multiple groups because as fans you need contingency plans.

I'm lacking time, so just short:

During the past two years I saw the opposite happening way more often: The original group - which introduced the manga to the readers and works on it since forever - stops their work when another group snaps their project which is completely understandable to me. Putting dedication, work and money (for the tanks/raws) into a project over a long time and than you see that someone else takes your work because you're a little too slow for the leechers is pretty depressing. But than, after a while, the speedy group breaks as well and - tada - no group anymore. Multiple groups, especially when a speedgroup of freelancers takes on a project of a long-established group, leads into as much dead projects as you think that it helps, imho.

Besides, I don't understand this "backup"-wish. Edited Mangas are illegal, they're free - is it *that* hard to wait for someone to pick up a project after a group dropped it? There are plenty of manga in my list that are on "Edited Manga hiatus" and I'm sad about it but even if it takes months till a new group is formed, we're not junkies who need our dose immanently. The reasoning to have multiple groups doing a series parallel just to prevent a gap in case that one drops it, is ridiculous. You basically say to take every class in school twice by different teachers, just in case that one of them gets sick or to do the office work twice by two workers as backup for each other.

*goes to cook lunch for the kids twice now, in case that she drops the cooking pot on her way to the table*

 

[Digital_Eon]

My point was that it isn't quite accurate to say "manga's you talk of that go unscanlated just never made the cut" because it isn't really true. The truth is just that it's very, very hard to find new staff for Edited Manga groups. Unless you have a well-established group already who are happy to work on anything you give them (which is often how lesser-known projects get scanlated), or you're a very charismatic person with lots of connections who has no trouble finding translators and editors to work for/with you, it's incredibly difficult. This is true even for popular series; I'm in groups that work on series that are certainly well-known and popular (not on the WSJ-series level, true) and finding translators/editors/anything except proofreaders is really difficult.

So it's not true to say that a series isn't good enough if it wasn't scanlated. It just means that it isn't well-known and that the people who do want to scanlate it don't have the necessary skills to get a group together and do it. It's very unfortunate.

And that's why everyone's complaining about this "backup group" thing. Those people DO have the skills to scanlate a manga on their own, so why not go for one that hasn't been done - because it's much easier to pick up a project within an existing group than to form one of all the required people with necessary skills in whatever they do.

 

[yal]

I scanlate Psyren for selfish-reasons, I do it for myself to have something good to read in good quality. I seriously could care less about the public, there are other groups that release chapters. But in the other hand, I've read Edited Mangas from other groups that the group I'm in doesn't do, so in some way, I owe something to the community. For providing me great reads from other mangas.

Good quality? I heard enough people complaining about your lack of quality...
But of course you are right, everyone starts because they want to scanlate and have fun Editing. But do you think any group would survive longer than a few weeks if NOBODY would actually download your releases?! Or if you see that a group which puts 1/4th of the effort into a project than you did before, but is still getting all praise/downloads/attention/etc. ? I doubt it. (Though I personally don't care about any of these, but mabye I would if any of my series were picked up by another group ).

In regards to point one. I think when it comes to non-populars (outside of the big shounen five) then the evidence is a lot less clear cut than you think. Outside of titles like Naruto, Bleach, etc. It's less about getting any material first and more about getting quality material to appreciate the work.

Outside of the top fives the numbers aren't as significant because a non-popular series usually doesn't have a second group speed Editing it. And for other series, true, people are often more patient, because the general reader for those series are often different than the general leecher.

I'm saying that it's as appealing as it's presence. I've picked up countless manga at MangaShare and wanted to get into them but with irregular releases and what not, they fall by the wayside. However with more presence and thus more customer adoration, the Manga Editors would be inclined to push the series out quicker. Case in point, at least for me; Saki.

And you think 5 groups Editing the same manga helps? If three of those groups would stop doing the series and pick up 3 stopped projects wouldn't that help more? (Question is, do they have the resources and skills (also mentioned in my article)).
But now you're saying "more presence" => "customer adoration" => "Edited Manga group gets work done faster". This is clearly not based on facts. There are certain manga, no matter how much presence they get, and no matter how good they're objectively, they'll never get "customer adoration". And then there are always groups, who have VERY POPULAR SERIES, who still don't get things done quicker, because peeps just don't apply, or do apply, but don't possess the necessary skills (Strays). And don't forget this is not the RL market We don't have a system of supply and demand here.

That's not about hurting the community, that's a bigger issue in which there appears to be no pride in groups these days. Look at what happened with Kuu Scans, Sora Scans started doing speedscans and because the material was out there, half the Kuu staff left and some even jumped ship to join Sora. Where is the pride or commitment?

Who are you, uninvolved in any Edited Manga, to talk about Edited Manga pride?! Pride and commitment? Huh? Can these terms even be applied to Edited Manga? Are you expecting them to waste their time on a project that's already being done, albeit with a horrible quality? They WANTED to, but if nobody applies to fill in the blanks then it's simply NOT possible. And Air Gear DID get a lot of "exposure".

For the point you didn't understand. I'm basically saying that if there's no apple tree planted in the garden behind your house, how can you complain about the lack of apples in your back garden.

Well, I don't know, I personally don't think speed Edited Manga groups and multiple groups working on one release are the only reason for missing resources. One could even say they didn't have any influence. No numbers. No figures. No facts. No way to know.

But that aside, please enlighten me as to how they work. I'm new to seeing this side of it all, up until now i've been fairly ignorant in just getting to see how things pan out from my side of things.

May I ask you for how long you've been reading Edited Mangas and an "active" community member?

Also, don't use mangashare! USE MANGAUPDATES! (NO OFFENSE!)

 

[fxu]

Good quality? I heard enough people complaining about your lack of quality...

Unfortunately, you can't please everyone...

They can go back to reading this if they don't want this.

But hey, to each their own.

 

[barbapapa]

It's hard to find Editing help because most people's tastes are pretty dull.

 

[Maxy Barnard]

Shortest and most agreeable statement Barba. I mean heck, if one thing's been proved, is that the majority like generic boring stuff

and that's hardly likely to change unless Manga Editors branch out more. less multiple Edited Mangas for single series could help with that. But in general it won't happen for various reasons. including that the more popular the series, the more the scan group will feel accomplishment in the sheer number of people who read it. Which is........... boring.

 

[GGpX]

It's hard to find Editing help because most people's tastes are pretty dull.

But... But...!!

Popularity = How good the series is!!!!

I heard a myth that Naruto, Bleach, Fairy Tail and Air Gear weren't all that good! Matter of fact, they were pretty horrible! Is there any truth to this myth, sir?

 

[eni]

lol

Ok, but now enough sarcasm. Go back ontopic, please. And keep the "your quality is bleh"-comments out of the thread. The discussion is about the general situation, not about certain groups.

*doesn't really know what to do with the leftover lunch*

 

[Maxy Barnard]

well a lot of people don't have the guts to take a look elsewhere, so will believe that the more popular series are the better ones. which is remediable hopefully.

and street urchins eni. street urchins are the solution to everything

[eni]*snort* [/eni]

 

[Alan Smithee]

This thread is annoying...

Just thought I would throw that in there it is annoying and never gonna go anywhere for many reasons I'll just pick my two highlights.

1) It's based on sabert00the himself loving air gear sooo much he wants to have different versions of each chapter for some own personal fan satisfaction. This has lead to a debate about whether people care about quality or not, arguing on this point with Manga Editors who do HQ releases have had a series taken over by a group doing much lower quality releases is futile. They know the before and after in terms of numbers and activity.

The Manga Editors are talking about what they know and the counter argument seems to be but I likes it and I download two chapters so it must be right. Annoying.

2)MH no bashing/flaming policy tips this thread from being annoying to being not even worth the time of day.

I have no idea where people got this fallacy from that the majority of "fans" download two chapters or infact that the majority of downloaders are "fans". If you are a true fan of a series assume that 15% of the downloaders/readers are the same and the rest would be leechers always keep in mind that because of the new trend in speed Edited Mangas those leechers have far more of a say than you do and in fact more than many if not most Manga Editors do.