Hangout Akatsuki no Yona Hangout Thread

[SamuelDean]

Yes, though I think it is rather arrogant to think that one knows better what would make other people happy, especially when one doesn’t bother to listen to them. Hak might not have suspected that Su-won’s reason may be so serious, but it is still not right to nag at someone to do something one thinks best for this person unless we see it is really harmful. However, marrying or not marrying a girl is not one of these things.

Well, right. On top of that, Soo Won is as old as Hak and surely not stupid, so that he is able to choose the correct path for himself. Yea. You are right on that.
It also would imply that Soo Won as a person didn t matter as much to Hak as for example Yona, since just her wishes were acknowledged

I wonder if Hak would still keep insisting that Su-won marry Yona after finding out that Il is responsible for Su won's father death. To be sure, Yona is not responsible, but it still would be a very awkward situation.

Most likely not. I think it is a pivotal point, since Hak is not aware of that motivation of Soo Won s. Hak consideres the situation like this:
Soo Won killed a peaceful and kind person, that might have been a bad king. He still doesn t know anything as to why he killed King Il.
Unfortunately this point is postponed and postponed....Yona didn not once reveal, what exactly Soo Won said on that fateful night.

 

[Mini_kinkin]

Yes, though I think it is rather arrogant to think that one knows better what would make other people happy, especially when one doesn’t bother to listen to them. Hak might not have suspected that Su-won’s reason may be so serious, but it is still not right to nag at someone to do something one thinks best for this person unless we see it is really harmful. However, marrying or not marrying a girl is not one of these things.

Well, right. On top of that, Soo Won is as old as Hak and surely not stupid, so that he is able to choose the correct path for himself. Yea. You are right on that.
It also would imply that Soo Won as a person didn t matter as much to Hak as for example Yona, since just her wishes were acknowledged

Hmm would have to disagree on these points.

Sure Yona and Hak were being stupid, but Soo-Won is the master of manipulation, who had rendered several characters stupid in this manga because of the same. It's only now that Yona is able to catch on a little and give it back in some ways.

He pretended to be an airhead sometimes, and even showed signs of liking Yona - like giving that hairpin who only people who LIKE someone else give, blushing when Yona said he likes him (yes I know we have been through this argument, and you guys say it's because of his inexperience in love, I don't think so).

http://mangafox.la/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c001/47.html
http://mangafox.la/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c001/49.html

Her looking like a woman bothers him apparently. And he would be nervous to fall asleep...what in the world is Yona supposed to think in this case?

Honestly, he was leading Yona on quite a bit, whether intentional or not, we will only know in the end (for example, if Yona didn't see Il's death would Soo-Won marry Yona?)

Stuff like this for example:
http://mangafox.la/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c001/54.html

Like? Stop being like that and complimenting her hair and showing obvious signs of courting. What else was poor Yona supposed to think? She was never the brightest cookie in the bunch in those days.

http://mangafox.la/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c001/50.html

Please note...he NEVER flat out refused her. Straight after this confession he gives her a hairpin lol.

Just think of it this way, your friend who you trust and behaves in a way that makes you believe they like your other friend....it's obvious that you would tease them are try to pair them up. You just want their happiness. Soo-Won did deny it, but in a half-serious way in my opinion, and all his actions were saying otherwise. Best friends nag and tease, it's basically what they do when it comes to relationships. It's not Hak's fault that Soo-Won rarely spoke the truth properly to him, or had a big invisible wall around him. Hak just wanted both Soo-Won and Yona's happiness. But what both Hak and Yona got was betrayal. Hak basically idiolized a lie because that was what Soo-Won made him believe.

In real life people like Soo-Won, in my opinion, are seriously the worst, people with two faces. But as a king it works really well and its what Kouka needs. Plus I feel like he is is changing as a person and becoming better too. I want Lily to seal the deal and change him into a decent person forever.

Though it would be interesting for Hak and Yona to discuss about Soo-Won and what they thought of him, versus what happened and what they should do now.

 

[SamuelDean]

Hmm would have to disagree on these points.

Sure Yona and Hak were being stupid, but Soo-Won is the master of manipulation, who had rendered several characters stupid in this manga because of the same. It's only now that Yona is able to catch on a little and give it back in some ways.

He pretended to be an airhead sometimes, and even showed signs of liking Yona - like giving that hairpin who only people who LIKE someone else give, blushing when Yona said he likes him (yes I know we have been through this argument, and you guys say it's because of his inexperience in love, I don't think so).

http://mangafox.la/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c001/47.html
http://mangafox.la/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c001/49.html

Her looking like a woman bothers him apparently. And he would be nervous to fall asleep...what in the world is Yona supposed to think in this case?

Honestly, he was leading Yona on quite a bit, whether intentional or not, we will only know in the end (for example, if Yona didn't see Il's death would Soo-Won marry Yona?)

Stuff like this for example:
http://mangafox.la/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c001/54.html

Like? Stop being like that and complimenting her hair and showing obvious signs of courting. What else was poor Yona supposed to think? She was never the brightest cookie in the bunch in those days.

http://mangafox.la/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c001/50.html

Please note...he NEVER flat out refused her. Straight after this confession he gives her a hairpin lol.

Just think of it this way, your friend who you trust and behaves in a way that makes you believe they like your other friend....it's obvious that you would tease them are try to pair them up. You just want their happiness. Soo-Won did deny it, but in a half-serious way in my opinion, and all his actions were saying otherwise. Best friends nag and tease, it's basically what they do when it comes to relationships. It's not Hak's fault that Soo-Won rarely spoke the truth properly to him, or had a big invisible wall around him. Hak just wanted both Soo-Won and Yona's happiness. But what both Hak and Yona got was betrayal. Hak basically idiolized a lie because that was what Soo-Won made him believe.

In real life people like Soo-Won, in my opinion, are seriously the worst, people with two faces. But as a king it works really well and its what Kouka needs. Plus I feel like he is is changing as a person and becoming better too. I want Lily to seal the deal and change him into a decent person forever.

Though it would be interesting for Hak and Yona to discuss about Soo-Won and what they thought of him, versus what happened and what they should do now.

So in your opinion it was right that Hak pressed his own wish on Soo Won without him ever asking what Soo Won wished, even though that person was and is able to decide his own fate?
And as far as I seee it, he never pretended to be in love with Yona, he never told her how much he loved her ect...
The only scene where you could wonder about is, is the scene with the hairpin, but even here there are people who don t consider it very romantic.

 

[@Aylinn]

Like? Stop being like that and complimenting her hair and showing obvious signs of courting. What else was poor Yona supposed to think? She was never the brightest cookie in the bunch in those days.

I think you give the hairpin too much significance. Giving a present on a birthday party was probably expected of him and since he was a royal, so he gave her something suitable to his and her position.

I also don’t think that complementing a friend is something unusual. There doesn’t have to be any implied romantic meaning to it.

Please note...he NEVER flat out refused her. Straight after this confession he gives her a hairpin lol.

She never told him her feelings and when she actually tried, he tried to change the subject and ignored her.
http://mangafox.la/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c001/45.html

To me it seemed that he was trying to discourage her, for example, he congratulated her cheerfully when she lied about her engagement with Hak and besides he told her that he saw a little sister in her.
http://mangafox.la/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c001/47.html

As for him feeling uncomfortable, it was most likely because of inexperience. It is rather normal for teenagers and young people to feel awkward in such situations. Blushing alone means nothing.

We had him blush here when the situation had nothing to do with Yona.
http://mangafox.la/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v22/c126/14.html

And sure Su-won liked Yona, but it doesn’t have to mean that he liked her romantically.
Besides, notice ‘this romantic situation’ was initiated by Yona, not Su-won.

We never see Su-won try to initiate anything with Yona. We don’t see him try to look for Yona to spend time with her. It is Yona who is looking for Su-won. The best she has is the compliment he gives her, but complementing a friend is not unusual, so it is a moot point at best.

Not to mention that right after this situation with the hairpin when Su-won speaks with Hak, Su-won’s reply is:
‘You have got the wrong idea, Hak.’
http://mangafox.la/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v01/c001/56.html

Yona didn’t have any strong proof that Su-won loves her, Hak even had evidence to the contrary, but choose to ignore it.

Just think of it this way, your friend who you trust and behaves in a way that makes you believe they like your other friend....it's obvious that you would tease them are try to pair them up.

No, it is not obvious to me. And Su-won didn’t behave like he liked Yona romantically, especially not in front of Hak.

Hak basically idiolized a lie because that was what Soo-Won made him believe.

Hak believed in what he wanted to believe. At the very last he could have asked Su-won why he keeps refusing to marry her. As I wrote earlier, while thinking that your best friend may have a dark secret is not something that comes to mind, I think it would be natural in this situation to think that Su-won may love someone else and thus ask about it

And as far as I seee it, he never pretended to be in love with Yona, he never told her how much he loved her ect...

Exactly, best she had is that he gave her a present during her own birthday party and a compliment about her hair. It is very little if anyone asks me.

I think that at this point of the story we can safely assume that there was nothing more, because I think it would be very strange if Yona never remembered a more romantic moment with Su-won up until now if they shared any.

 

[Mini_kinkin]

You guys are forgetting that we only saw that one chapter but Soo-Won was behaving like that with Yona her whole life. Even after she confesses, he doesn't refuse her properly, and says he sees her as a woman now, which in my opinion is a very clear sign of giving hope - and still gives her a hairpin after that which is a clear sign of courtship in those days. Soo-Won who is knowledgeable about everything, didn't know that? He could have given anything else. Personally I hated the fact that Yona kept pursuing Soo-Won like a leech and I am glad that part changed about her, but Soo-Won is no better, he would have caught on that she likes him and really did nothing much to dissuade her, only egged her on, and didn't even properly refuse her when she confessed.

So in your opinion it was right that Hak pressed his own wish on Soo Won without him ever asking what Soo Won wished, even though that person was and is able to decide his own fate?
And as far as I seee it, he never pretended to be in love with Yona, he never told her how much he loved her ect...
The only scene where you could wonder about is, is the scene with the hairpin, but even here there are people who don t consider it very romantic.

I don't get it. Hak never held Soo-Won at sword-point and said marry Yona, he only ever teased Soo-Won and Yona about each other. Ultimately Soo-Won DID do what he wanted right? Hak's intentions were never bad from the start.

No he never pretended to be in love with Yona directly, but he was never forthright about anything, or direct about anything at all with her. Instances I mentioned look like he is actually encouraging her crush in some twisted ways.

How is it Hak's fault that Soo-Won never opened up when Soo-Won spun nothing but a web of lies to them ever since Yu-Hon died? Does Soo-Won not take the blame at all in this case? He was never opened about anything. If someone is closed off all the time, and you think you know them well, it's not your fault that they suddenly turn their back on you - because they were never the person you knew at all.

Also about Hak asking Soo-Won why he didn't want to marry Yona - maybe because Soo-Won never seriously told him to stop teasing them about each other. Are best friends supposed to be honest with each other? Why does Hak have to ask his best friend? Why can't his best friend be honest and tell him why himself and to stop teasing them?

Because his bff happened to be Soo-Won who hardly told the truth to Yona and Hak...

 

[@Aylinn]

You guys are forgetting that we only saw that one chapter but Soo-Won was behaving like that with Yona her whole life.

Yes, but I explained that at this point it would be strange if Yona had more romantic moments with Su-won, but never remembered them, so I don’t think that there was anything more romantic then that hairpin scene.

As for Su-won behaving like this to Yona. Yes, he was nice to her, though I doubt that there was many of such scenes, since Su-won didn’t live at the castle.

Even after she confesses, he doesn't refuse her properly, and says he sees her as a woman now

Wasn't it a statement of a fact? She was growing up after all.

still gives her a hairpin after that which is a clear sign of courtship in those days

Yona, didn’t think about it that way, so it may not be such a clear sign of courtship in this manga.

No he never pretended to be in love with Yona directly, but he was never forthright about anything, or direct about anything at all with her. Instances I mentioned look like he is actually encouraging her crush in some twisted ways.

And there are instances where it seems that he is discouraging her. I count the attempt to change the subject as one. At least I think he should have been happy at that moment if he truly loved her. Instead he seemed rather embarrassed about the subject of the conversation.

How is it Hak's fault that Soo-Won never opened up when Soo-Won spun nothing but a web of lies to them ever since Yu-Hon died?

I would not say he spun lies. He didn't tell Yona that he loves her, so he never lied to her. He told Hak that he likes her like other people.
http://mangafox.la/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v22/c125/3.html
Also, notice that he doesn’t tell Hak here that he likes Il, so rather than lying it seems he was avoiding the subject.

Does Soo-Won not take the blame at all in this case?

It is not this. I didn’t mean to say that everything is Hak’s fault. Su-won takes the chief part of blame, for he too could have acted differently. I can readily agree with it.

What I pointed out is that Hak had a chance to discover what is going on if he actually paid attention and that Hak’s behaviour was rather arrogant if he thought that he knows better what would make Su-won happy when he didn’t even seem to listen to him. Hak might have meant well, but if Su-won didn’t tell him his wishes then it was arrogant of Hak to assume that he knows better.

Which is way I wrote that Hak and Yona were building castles in the air. It would be nice development if they realized it. I think self-reflection is not bad.

 

[SamuelDean]

You guys are forgetting that we only saw that one chapter but Soo-Won was behaving like that with Yona her whole life. Even after she confesses, he doesn't refuse her properly, and says he sees her as a woman now, which in my opinion is a very clear sign of giving hope - and still gives her a hairpin after that which is a clear sign of courtship in those days. Soo-Won who is knowledgeable about everything, didn't know that? He could have given anything else. Personally I hated the fact that Yona kept pursuing Soo-Won like a leech and I am glad that part changed about her, but Soo-Won is no better, he would have caught on that she likes him and really did nothing much to dissuade her, only egged her on, and didn't even properly refuse her when she confessed.

He has never told her "I love you". Furthermore he is rather inexperienced in romantic relationships.
There is even a chance, that Soo Won is absolutely clueless about any hidden meanings of the hairpin.

I don't get it. Hak never held Soo-Won at sword-point and said marry Yona, he only ever teased Soo-Won and Yona about each other. Ultimately Soo-Won DID do what he wanted right? Hak's intentions were never bad from the start.

In fact he did. He said, that he only would acknowledge Soo Won, if he marries Yona and become the King. That was a condition and not a question.
Also it is a little sad (at least in my opinion), that he makes it a condition for their further relationship.

No he never pretended to be in love with Yona directly, but he was never forthright about anything, or direct about anything at all with her. Instances I mentioned look like he is actually encouraging her crush in some twisted ways.

He was direct in the refusal of a marriage between Yona and him. He never explained why, that is right, but he refused to marry Yona and Hak never bothered to ask why.

How is it Hak's fault that Soo-Won never opened up when Soo-Won spun nothing but a web of lies to them ever since Yu-Hon died? Does Soo-Won not take the blame at all in this case? He was never opened about anything. If someone is closed off all the time, and you think you know them well, it's not your fault that they suddenly turn their back on you - because they were never the person you knew at all.

That doesn t change the fact, that Hak never had a right to meddle in their relationship. We all know what Soo Won did, but Hak had never an obligation nor the right to name the next king.
That was King Il s task and maybe Soo Won and Yona s thing, but never Hak s. People never know a person that well that they can just make decisions for people they know.
Soo Won clearly told him no. If he was direct, then in this point. How could Hak interpret it as yes?

Also about Hak asking Soo-Won why he didn't want to marry Yona - maybe because Soo-Won never seriously told him to stop teasing them about each other. Are best friends supposed to be honest with each other? Why does Hak have to ask his best friend? Why can't his best friend be honest and tell him why himself and to stop teasing them?

Because his bff happened to be Soo-Won who hardly told the truth to Yona and Hak
...

I consider honesty as an important condition for every close relationship. How are people able to know each other, if they are not honest`? But that doesn t change the fact, that it was not Hak s right to decide who should be king or even meddle in the whole relationship.
I consider actually listening to people also a condition for a close relationship.
So in my case it is Soo Won s fault for not being honest, but also Hak s fault for not listening at all.

 

[Mini_kinkin]

What I pointed out is that Hak had a chance to discover what is going on if he actually paid attention and that Hak’s behaviour was rather arrogant if he thought that he knows better what would make Su-won happy when he didn’t even seem to listen to him. Hak might have meant well, but if Su-won didn’t tell him his wishes then it was arrogant of Hak to assume that he knows better.

Which is way I wrote that Hak and Yona were building castles in the air. It would be nice development if they realized it. I think self-reflection is not bad.

Yes self-reflection is good, but I don't think Soo-Won is faultless in this case at all. When it comes to his relationship with Yona and Hak, he never told them his inner thoughts and took them for granted. So while Hak and Yona should reflect on their own stupidity, and what they learnt from it, I hope we will see more reflections of Soo-Won and what he did to them. We have already seen some short panels in the past.

I consider honesty as an important condition for every close relationship. How are people able to know each other, if they are not honest`? But that doesn t change the fact, that it was not Hak s right to decide who should be king or even meddle in the whole relationship.
I consider actually listening to people also a condition for a close relationship.
So in my case it is Soo Won s fault for not being honest, but also Hak s fault for not listening at all.

Hak can have his own opinions right? After all, he has seen Yona and Soo-Won grow up and only then formulated his opinion. The condition that Soo-Won can be king if he marries Yona is also reasonable because...that was the only way to do it without killing Il. It's not like Hak announced to the world Soo-Won should only be king this way. He basically was having private convos with Soo-Won about it so what is the whole "meddling" about? In this case friends should not advice or help each other at all?

And even if he DID listen or probe, you think Soo-Won would reveal anything? I highly doubt it.

Btw I am not trying to say Soo-Won loved Yona, I am just trying to say that he didn't reject her properly, and seemed to encourage things (in my view this is how it looks, everyone interprets differently). If he did, maybe Yona wouldn't go into Il's room that night to further ask for Soo-Won's hand in marriage. He should have flat out told her no and then kept some distance between them so she can get over her feelings for him. Not give her a hairpin and compliment her hair.

 

[@Aylinn]

Yes self-reflection is good, but I don't think Soo-Won is faultless in this case at all. When it comes to his relationship with Yona and Hak, he never told them his inner thoughts and took them for granted. So while Hak and Yona should reflect on their own stupidity, and what they learnt from it, I hope we will see more reflections of Soo-Won and what he did to them. We have already seen some short panels in the past.

I would like to see self-reflection from Su-won.

Hak can have his own opinions right? After all, he has seen Yona and Soo-Won grow up and only then formulated his opinion. The condition that Soo-Won can be king if he marries Yona is also reasonable because...that was the only way to do it without killing Il. It's not like Hak announced to the world Soo-Won should only be king this way. He basically was having private convos with Soo-Won about it so what is the whole "meddling" about? In this case friends should not advice or help each other at all?

He was telling Su-won to marry Yona. It didn't seem like advice to me. I would regard it as impolite if someone, even a friend, was telling me with whom I should marry and have an intimate relationship with. It would be different if I personally asked the friend for their opinion, but otherwise uncalled for opinions like this I would take as rude. It is my private matter and not this person business.

Btw I am not trying to say Soo-Won loved Yona, I am just trying to say that he didn't reject her properly, and seemed to encourage things (in my view this is how it looks, everyone interprets differently). If he did, maybe Yona wouldn't go into Il's room that night to further ask for Soo-Won's hand in marriage. He should have flat out told her no and then kept some distance between them so she can get over her feelings for him. Not give her a hairpin and compliment her hair.

Ok, what I want to say that in Yona’s place I would not start building future on so shaky grounds. She didn’t have an unequivocal answer that he loves her and wants to marry her that would confirm definitively it. And before even knowing and making certainly sure that he actually wants to be with her, she was running to her daddy to let her marry him. She was taking it for granted that he wants to be with her and marry her without actually having anything solid to support it.

 

[SamuelDean]

Yes self-reflection is good, but I don't think Soo-Won is faultless in this case at all. When it comes to his relationship with Yona and Hak, he never told them his inner thoughts and took them for granted. So while Hak and Yona should reflect on their own stupidity, and what they learnt from it, I hope we will see more reflections of Soo-Won and what he did to them. We have already seen some short panels in the past.

All three are not without fault that their relationship developped like this.

Hak can have his own opinions right? After all, he has seen Yona and Soo-Won grow up and only then formulated his opinion. The condition that Soo-Won can be king if he marries Yona is also reasonable because...that was the only way to do it without killing Il. It's not like Hak announced to the world Soo-Won should only be king this way. He basically was having private convos with Soo-Won about it so what is the whole "meddling" about? In this case friends should not advice or help each other at all?

It s not a mere opinion if he makes it a condition. No...his condition was that he would only acknowledge him, if he married Yona and become the king.
Marriage between Soo Won and Yona was a condition for his acknowledgement of Soo Won!
It was not his place to decide and he didn t ask Soo Won and even made it a condition!

And even if he DID listen or probe, you think Soo-Won would reveal anything? I highly doubt it.

There is a good chance that Hak would have been more suspicious, if Soo Won had refused to answer of given him an explanation that hadn t satisfied him, maybe King Il would have been still alive.

Btw I am not trying to say Soo-Won loved Yona, I am just trying to say that he didn't reject her properly, and seemed to encourage things (in my view this is how it looks, everyone interprets differently). If he did, maybe Yona wouldn't go into Il's room that night to further ask for Soo-Won's hand in marriage. He should have flat out told her no and then kept some distance between them so she can get over her feelings for him. Not give her a hairpin and compliment her hair.

That s right, but he also didn t encourage her that much. The scene with the hairpin doesn t strike other people not as overly romantic.
But he obviously told Hak that he didn t intend to marry Yona, so why would he still ignore it?
If somebody says no, it is pressuring another, if you don t acknowledge the refusal of another.
I think if I was Hak I would have asked him, if he considered Soo Won s behaviour contradictionarily

 

[Mini_kinkin]

He was telling Su-won to marry Yona. It didn't seem like advice to me. I would regard it as impolite if someone, even a friend, was telling me with whom I should marry and have an intimate relationship with. It would be different if I personally asked the friend for their opinion, but otherwise uncalled for opinions like this I would take as rude. It is my private matter and not this person business.

But why can't friends tell others and suggest who they should get married to? Maybe it is a culture difference. In Asia, weddings and what not are always a hot topic and friends talk about this freely. Maybe this is why I am not understanding the big deal here. Plus like, they are best friends, best friends are supposed to talk to each other about everything and if it really bothered Soo-Won he should have insisted that Hak stopped.

Ok, what I want to say that in Yona’s place I would not start building future on so shaky grounds. She didn’t have an unequivocal answer that he loves her and wants to marry her that would confirm definitively it. And before even knowing and making certainly sure that he actually wants to be with her, she was running to her daddy to let her marry him. She was taking it for granted that he wants to be with her and marry her without actually having anything solid to support it.

I agree Yona was very stupid and a leech and I hated that. But Soo-Won is certainly not faultless and esp if he knew about her feelings for him, he should have completely refused her.

It s not a mere opinion if he makes it a condition. No...his condition was that he would only acknowledge him, if he married Yona and become the king.
Marriage between Soo Won and Yona was a condition for his acknowledgement of Soo Won!
It was not his place to decide and he didn t ask Soo Won and even made it a condition!

But, how else would Soo-Won have become king unless he marries Yona? Hak wanted Yona to marry Soo-Won and Soo-Won as King. He was merely saying those thoughts out loud to Soo-Won. Why should he acknowledge Soo-Won if he became King through illicit methods like killing Il (who Hak was very loyal too)? Makes no sense to me. If this was done the right way, Soo-Won wouldn't have been king at all, and only Yona's future husband would have been king, whoever that might have been.

That s right, but he also didn t encourage her that much. The scene with the hairpin doesn t strike other people not as overly romantic.
But he obviously told Hak that he didn t intend to marry Yona, so why would he still ignore it?
If somebody says no, it is pressuring another, if you don t acknowledge the refusal of another.
I think if I was Hak I would have asked him, if he considered Soo Won s behaviour contradictionarily

Not everyone thinks the hairpin is not a romantic gesture either.

And once again, Soo-Won lightly brushes off questions about Yona, never vehemently refuses? And his actions said otherwise according to me.

But anyway, Hak sure did pay for trusting his best friend too much.

 

[SamuelDean]

But why can't friends tell others and suggest who they should get married to? Maybe it is a culture difference. In Asia, weddings and what not are always a hot topic and friends talk about this freely. Maybe this is why I am not understanding the big deal here. Plus like, they are best friends, best friends are supposed to talk to each other about everything and if it really bothered Soo-Won he should have insisted that Hak stopped.

Even in a culture with high power distance as in the ancient Korea, King Il would have been the one to decide and not Hak. The parents were the one to decide or in Soo Won s case his older relatives, not Hak.
Best friends would have still no say in that matter.

I think that it is rather sad, if somebody has to get mad, that another person stops pestering him about a certain topic. He clearly said no to the topic.

I agree Yona was very stupid and a leech and I hated that. But Soo-Won is certainly not faultless and esp if he knew about her feelings for him, he should have completely refused her.

Yes he should have. By the way I don t consider her a leech in any way, she was just very naive.

But, how else would Soo-Won have become king unless he marries Yona? Hak wanted Yona to marry Soo-Won and Soo-Won as King. He was merely saying those thoughts out loud to Soo-Won. Why should he acknowledge Soo-Won if he became King through illicit methods like killing Il (who Hak was very loyal too)? Makes no sense to me. If this was done the right way, Soo-Won wouldn't have been king at all, and only Yona's future husband would have been king, whoever that might have been.

I think it becomes only worse for Hak, if we apply the rules of ancient Korea:
There was a high power distance.

• A subject would never criticize or even command his superior
• King Il and Soo Won have a higher position, but Hak disrespected that and flat out told Soo Won what he should do
• The parents would have been responsible to decide who both (Yona and Soo Won ) should marry, and not Hak who is part of an inferior social class

There was a high-context culture

• People tended to use indirect and formal ways of speech; non-verbal language is really important
  
• which means Soo Won s non-verbal signs are clear indications that he was not very fond of the idea of him marrying Yona, and his direct refusal was rather a high-class warning....and Hak still ignored it

So no. Hak was in no position to tell Soo Won what he should do and it was not worded as an advice, he made it a condition and the condition was even emphasized with "only".

Not everyone thinks the hairpin is not a romantic gesture either.

Yea, but there are still people that do.

And once again, Soo-Won lightly brushes off questions about Yona, never vehemently refuses? And his actions said otherwise according to me.

He flat out told Hak, he didn t want to marry Yona. This is the most direct way, Soo Won as part of a high-context culture would refuse an option.

But anyway, Hak sure did pay for trusting his best friend too much.

If he had paid more attention he could have maybe saved the king. Every guard was on Soo Won s side, so Hak proved even ignorance in that point.

 

[Mini_kinkin]

Even in a culture with high power distance as in the ancient Korea, King Il would have been the one to decide and not Hak. The parents were the one to decide or in Soo Won s case his older relatives, not Hak.
Best friends would have still no say in that matter.

I think that it is rather sad, if somebody has to get mad, that another person stops pestering him about a certain topic. He clearly said no to the topic.

So no. Hak was in no position to tell Soo Won what he should do and it was not worded as an advice, he made it a condition and the condition was even emphasized with "only".

To me, it seems like you are saying since Hak was in a lower position than Soo-Won he has not right to even give his opinion on his marriage to Yona? Btw even Soo-Won said "don't call me lord" clearly treating him as an equal and as a friend.

I really fail to see the big deal in this because this sort of conversation is commonplace amongst friends, moreover amongst best friends. Why can't Soo-Won get mad at this best friend for teasing him? Yona gets mad all the time. Why does it need to be so formal and polite? Oh yes...because Soo-Won always wore a mask on. Or maybe he wasn't actually annoyed or didn't care, seeing how he casually brushed away the topic.

And since when did Hak decide that they should get married anyway? It was only his thoughts and opinions. Like I said he only ever spoke about it in private with either Yona and Soo-Won like friends would usually do. And in the end Soo-Won did whatever he wanted to. Like I asked before, can't friends even advice or suggest now?

If he had paid more attention he could have maybe saved the king. Every guard was on Soo Won s side, so Hak proved even ignorance in that point.

It's not ignorance, it's trust. He trusted Soo-Won with his and Yona's life and he paid dearly for it.

 

[SamuelDean]

To me, it seems like you are saying since Hak was in a lower position than Soo-Won he has not right to even give his opinion on his marriage to Yona? Btw even Soo-Won said "don't call me lord" clearly treating him as an equal and as a friend.

It was not a mere opinion, since Hak made it a condition. And no. Hak had no obligation and no right to word it like this.

Why can't Soo-Won get mad at this best friend for teasing him?Yona gets mad all the time. Why does it need to be so formal and polite?

People of a high-context culture would wish to save face, showing clearly negative feelings was frowned upon.

Oh yes...because Soo-Won always wore a mask on. Or maybe he wasn't actually annoyed or didn't care, seeing how he casually brushed away the topic.

We don t know what Soo Won really felt, since it is not explained now and will be most likely revealed later in the manga.

And since when did Hak decide that they should get married anyway? It was only his thoughts and opinions. Like I said he only ever spoke about it in private with either Yona and Soo-Won like friends would usually do. And in the end Soo-Won did whatever he wanted to. Like I asked before, can't friends even advice or suggest now?

Look. He clearly made it a condition. This is no question or opinion. That is a fact that is so clearly highlighted in the manga, that it is by no way up to interpretation:
" I only acknowlege you, if you marry Princess Yona and become the King!" is not an opinion and will never be one.

It's not ignorance, it's trust. He trusted Soo-Won with his and Yona's life and he paid dearly for it.

It s complete ignorance if he disregards hints left everywhere.

 

[Mini_kinkin]

Look. He clearly made it a condition. This is no question or opinion. That is a fact that is so clearly highlighted in the manga, that it is by no way up to interpretation:
" I only acknowlege you, if you marry Princess Yona and become the King!" is not an opinion and will never be one.

Yes? So it isn't "I won't be your friend anymore if you don't marry Yona" its "You obviously need to marry Yona to be king and that is the only way I will acknowledge you as a king."

I don't see anything wrong with that statement.

Anyway...

It was not a mere opinion, since Hak made it a condition. And no. Hak had no obligation and no right to word it like this.

If this is how you feel friendship should be then there is no point arguing further on this as we will never see eye to eye.

Edit: What I mean to say is everyone has their own standards of friendship, so arguing over that sort of thing is pointless. Like I may think that best friends should be able to tell anything to each other, but others may not feel the same way. So yeah. Wanted to clarify so it doesn't sound rude.

People of a high-context culture would wish to save face, showing clearly negative feelings was frowned upon.

Yona had absolutely no qualms insulting and scolding Hak, and neither did Tae-Jun or Mun Dok too for that matter so why is Soo-Won the great exception?

It s complete ignorance if he disregards hints left everywhere.

Hints like? Like I said he trusted Soo-Won and didn't seem to think Soo-Won would do something so suspicious. His biggest mistake was trusting Soo-Won, and for that he surely needs to reflect.

Update: I re-read the arguments, and the thing is, we don't really know if it was castles in the air. Soo-Won could have very well have married Yona if he wasn't discovered. There was no logical reason not to marry Yona actually.

But if we do get a segment of Hak and Yona talking about Soo-Won's marriage to her - and their hopes - it wouldn't be a bad thing. Actually I just want Hak to move on and be rational about the whole thing like Yona is being recently. He is heart is broken because of his friend which is why he is still so emotional.

 

[@Aylinn]

But why can't friends tell others and suggest who they should get married to? Maybe it is a culture difference. In Asia, weddings and what not are always a hot topic and friends talk about this freely. Maybe this is why I am not understanding the big deal here. Plus like, they are best friends, best friends are supposed to talk to each other about everything and if it really bothered Soo-Won he should have insisted that Hak stopped.

Because it is their independent choice who they marry, not mine. I see no reason why someone’s else intimate life should be of so much interest me. If, for example, a friend wants to talk, comes for advice or asks me for an opinion, then sure, but otherwise I see no point and it can make more harm than good.

I know for certain that people who are nagged like this can be annoyed by it, because I have a friend who was nagged like this by another friend to date guys and she was telling me how annoying it is. She was telling the other friend that she is not interested, but that friend kept pestering her anyway. She thought that the guys the other friend wanted her to date were awful. She didn’t tell it to the other friend, because she didn’t want to be rude and from what I understood ended up avoiding the other friend.

I agree Yona was very stupid and a leech and I hated that. But Soo-Won is certainly not faultless and esp if he knew about her feelings for him, he should have completely refused her.

Actually, I don’t think it was necessary. He never promised her anything and never told her he loves her. It is not his fault that she got her hopes up so high, even though she didn’t have any ground for it.

Update: I re-read the arguments, and the thing is, we don't really know if it was castles in the air. Soo-Won could have very well have married Yona if he wasn't discovered. There was no logical reason not to marry Yona actually.

Could be, but taking into considerations Su-won’s thoughts here it doesn’t seem like he planned marriage with Yona
http://www.titaniascans.com/reader/Akatsuki+no+Yona/011:+The+Crowning+of+A+New+King/#page=9

Yona had absolutely no qualms insulting and scolding Hak, and neither did Tae-Jun or Mun Dok too for that matter so why is Soo-Won the great exception?

I cannot imagine Su-won insulting and scolding someone like this. I don't think it is his style. Anyway, I don't think it is bad. Actually, it is something that makes him a better politician and diplomat. After all, politicians and diplomats should avoid arousing hostility.

He flat out told Hak, he didn t want to marry Yona. This is the most direct way, Soo Won as part of a high-context culture would refuse an option.

This reminded me of this big discussion what Il meant when he said to Su-won ‘You are different’ and it turned out that Japanese are experts at avoiding the word no. If we take it into consideration then it seems that Su-won’s refusal to marry Yona might be very straightforward. What he said to Hak is certainly not ambiguous like phrase ‘It is different.’

I think you are right it was a high-class warning.

 

[Mini_kinkin]

I know for certain that people who are nagged like this can be annoyed by it, because I have a friend who was nagged like this by another friend to date guys and she was telling me how annoying it is. She was telling the other friend that she is not interested, but that friend kept pestering her anyway. She thought that the guys the other friend wanted her to date were awful. She didn’t tell it to the other friend, because she didn’t want to be rude and from what I understood ended up avoiding the other friend.

Yes this can get annoying. I face this everyday too because I am seeing someone and I am at "marriageable" age according to our society - and my best friends keep pestering me that they want to attend my wedding and I should get married quickly lol. But if I get too annoyed I just tell them to shutup hehe. But obviously I cannot dish out the same treatment to friends who aren't close or elders who keep asking me.

I cannot imagine Su-won insulting and scolding someone like this. I don't think it is his style. Anyway, I don't think it is bad. Actually, it is something that makes him a better politician and diplomat. After all, politicians and diplomats should avoid arousing hostility.

The problem is that Soo-Won treats everyone the same. This is both good and bad because at the end of the day, your friends should get different treatment - you should be closer to them that others. Just like how Yona would scold Hak the most but not everyone else. Anyway this is just my opinion on friendship. And like I said, Soo-Won's nature is perfect for a king..but as a friend..not so much.

Could be, but taking into considerations Su-won’s thoughts here it doesn’t seem like he planned marriage with Yona
http://www.titaniascans.com/reader/Akatsuki+no+Yona/011:+The+Crowning+of+A+New+King/#page=9

Yes, guess you have a point here. Which brings us back to the question that...did Soo-Won plan for Yona to see the murder?

Oh but...he also said its a "fortunate dream" to have Hak and Yona by his side....which makes me think that if it weren't for the circumstances, maybe he would have actually have married Yona and have had Hak as his right hand man.

About the new chapter:

I am satisfied because I fangirled a lot and it seems that Yona wanted to confess but Hak was the one who stopped her midway because he wasn't expecting anything lol.

And Hak is admitting once again his own weakness. Jae-Ha is spot on with this:

http://fanfox.net/manga/akatsuki_no_yona/v26/c153/30.html

I hope we see him move on. Hak is still really heartbroken because of Soo-Won, whereas Yona giving away the hairpin is a symbol of her letting go completely and looking to the future. I am glad Kusa is adding more dimensions to Hak's character. In the last page he said he will stay out a little longer, so maybe we will get more Hak and Soo-Won flashbacks.

 

[@Aylinn]

The problem is that Soo-Won treats everyone the same. This is both good and bad because at the end of the day, your friends should get different treatment - you should be closer to them that others. Just like how Yona would scold Hak the most but not everyone else. Anyway this is just my opinion on friendship. And like I said, Soo-Won's nature is perfect for a king..but as a friend..not so much.

Yeah, he has a problem with telling his issues openly, but I just don’t think that Yona and Hak had been ideal friends without faults. They had their faults and made mistakes, which is good as it is more realistic.

I agree SamuelDean that good friends should listen to each other.

I think that for each of them it can serve as a lesson, which is good for development.

These mistakes costed them a lot. If Su-won was more open, Yona was not blind and Hak was not deaf, they would have a chance to save their friendship and their country. For example, they might have ended up working together to convince Il to step aside.

In this manga I care the most for some characters and their interactions, which is way I didn’t mind Sei arc too much. I don’t care so much for the plot and the political stuff, which is simple in this story and I think that anyone who wants good political stuff should rather read something like Shoukoku no Altair. The author of Shoukoku no Altair has clearly a much better grasp on politics than Kausanagi. However, I think that Kusanagi is better with her characters and their interactions.

Yes, guess you have a point here. Which brings us back to the question that...did Soo-Won plan for Yona to see the murder?

He didn’t
http://www.titaniascans.com/reader/Akatsuki+no+Yona/002:+A+Torn+Bond/#page=16
The question is what he planned to do with her in this case?

 

[Mini_kinkin]

The question is what he planned to do with her in this case?

I don't know. Would have have imprisoned or killed Yona then? Because if he wanted to ascend to the throne, all natural heirs would have to go. But looking at how he isn't pursuing Yona now, even if that was his plan...I don't think he would have gone through with it.

Only other option is marrying her.

These mistakes costed them a lot. If Su-won was more open, Yona was not blind and Hak was not deaf, they would have a chance to save their friendship and their country.

Yes all of them did have their faults when it came to the friendship. Yona irritated me the most out of the three initially if I am being honest. She was blind and deaf both. I don't know if Hak will think "If only I had listened more", right now at least, because right now he needs to actually forgive Soo-Won internally. Maybe he would think about that one day, and he probably should, though I feel like Hak has made a good family for himself with Yona, Yoon and the dragons to distract him. But maybe we will get more reflections in the next chapter.

Soo-Won...well no one knows what he was thinking...he wasn't refusing Yona properly, and never did be open about his problems. I don't even think he has forgiven himself for what he did to Yona and Hak. Even now, Soo-Won seems to be losing a lot in the relationships department, the biggest loser in fact. Good friends should listen, yes, but only if they talk right? How does one become closer without a big wall blocking the way?

While Yona and Hak have made another family, Soo-Won is still alone. He is changing for the better now in my opinion and I sincerely hope he gets a happy ending.

 

[@Aylinn]

I don't know. Would have have imprisoned or killed Yona then? Because if he wanted to ascend to the throne, all natural heirs would have to go. But looking at how he isn't pursuing Yona now, even if that was his plan...I don't think he would have gone through with it.

Murdering her would be the best option. Putting her in jail, not so much. If she had escaped, it might have been a problem. However, I don't know. We will see, I suppose.

Soo-Won...well no one knows what he was thinking...he wasn't refusing Yona properly, and never did be open about his problems.

As I said, I don’t think he needed to properly refuse her when he never properly declared his love for her and never made it clear beyond all doubt that he loves and wants to marry her, all Yona had were situation which are arguable at the very best. If Yona assumed too much, it was her problem. He promised her nothing.

Good friends should listen, yes, but only if they talk right?

Su-won did tell clearly that he cannot marry Yona. All Hak needed to do in this situation was to ask him why?