Discussion Ancient Spell

[BluePegasus]

Dragon Slayer Magic is mostly considered as the strongest type of Slayer Magic because we know a lot more about it than God Slayer Magic. But as I see it, God Slayer Magic has always been introduced as stronger than Dragon Slayer Magic. Just as Zancrow overpowered Natsu and Chelia overpowered Wendy.

We saw Orga he was crucified and Laxus he beat a Spriggan

Wendy/Natsu were just weaker than Sherria/Zancrow at the time, that is all.

I think DS > others is the most likely, especially with the added advantage of dragon force. That is where DS magic blows others out of the water. I'd still say DS magic is still better than the other slayer types even without DF.

DS magic users do have the weakness of motion sickness but they make up for it with heightened sense.

We don't know what happened to Orga before he was crucified. Maybe Sabertooth had to face all the three Spriggans at the same time.

Dragon Force indeed is a major factor why it's considered as more powerful. And I can agree to it, but up to now we don't know if there exists something as God Force (would be awesome though).

Dragon Slayers are stronger than God Slayers because dragons are stronger than gods. Natsu was able to defeat a god of war with demolition fist. It takes Acnologia an arm to slay Igneel. Dragon Slayers also have Dragon Force, which gives them the physical properties of a dragon. This gives dragon slayers an overwhelming advantage in strength, speed, and durabilityr. God Slayers only have 1 advantage over dragon slayers, and that is that they can eat a dragon slayer's elements without having their own elements easily eaten. This advantage completely disappears if we pit a dragon slayer and a god slayer of different elements, or if the dragon slayer has more than one element. Zancrow would have absolutely no advantage against Gajeel, for example. Also, Zancrow's advantage over Natsu would be reduced by LFD.

There is no evidence that Zancrow would have become as strong as Natsu with the same amount of training. It's not like it takes current Natsu to beat Zancrow. Natsu surpassed Zancrow by the GMG arc with the unlocking of second origin and LFD. Chelia was indeed stronger than Wendy, but that was because Chelia had a superior reserve of magical power and could self heal. This was prior to Wendy receiving Dragon Force during Tartarus. Current Wendy would have been solidly ahead of current Chelia, prior to Chelia receiving third origin. All of Laxus' feats beat out Orga's. All of them. Orga's best feat was oneshotting a fodder from Quatro Ceberus, which was the weakest guild participating in the GMG. Laxus had better feats even before the GMG arc. He train wrecked Natsu + Gajeel during the Harvest Festival. He did more against Hades than the entirety of team Natsu, and it was his magical power that let Natsu perform as well as he did with Hades. Remember how LFD roar cleaved a path along the side of Tenrou? Most of that power was Laxus'. Now during the GMG, Roaring Thunder was the spell that took out Jura.

Lastly, dragon slayers produces stronger mages. Acnologia, Laxus, God Serena, and even Igneel-powered Natsu are all dragon slayers. The strongest God Slayer is in the series Chelia with her 3rd origin, which everyone I just mentioned can solidly beat. Keep in mind that when we're talking about Chelia, we're talking about the absolute limits of God Slaying magic can do for Chelia. 3rd Origin gives Chelia all the magical power she would ever have in her entire life-time. Dragon Slayers have Acnologia, and Acnologia can arguably even solo every god and god slayer shown in this series. Finally, dragons themselves were the original dragon slayers. Before the humans had it, it was what the dragons used to kill each other.

Spoiler: Dragon Slaying Magic was meant for dragons to kill each other

I wouldn't say dragons are stronger than gods. God War Magic is more a magic type than a 'real' god. Up to now we've only seen one real god (which is confirmed) and that's Chronos. Chronos should be superior to dragons due to Age Seal. Natsu may have fodderized some fake god, but he won't stand a chance against Chronos at all.

Orga never had the opportunity to fight someone above the leagues of Quatro Ceberus. He was blitzed by Jura, so we won't know what would've happened if his Lightning Cannon would've hit him.

I think Chelia is underestimated a lot, even without Third Origin. Her ability to heal herself after she's attacked is pretty overpowered. She may not be able to fight on par with the Dragon Slayers like Natsu and Gajeel, but that's only because they're much older (that's why I compared her to Wendy).

 

[Arjuna]

Cs magic is not ancient or lost magic , there are a lots of people using Cs magic before all of them are kill by oracion seis .

Cs magic is not rare but the 12 keys is the one that's rare .

CS Magic has been in existence 400 years ago since the days Anna and the Dragon Slayers.It is as old as Dragon Slaying Magic if not older.So will you still not call it ancient?

 

[Axiomus]

Dragon Slayer Magic is mostly considered as the strongest type of Slayer Magic because we know a lot more about it than God Slayer Magic. But as I see it, God Slayer Magic has always been introduced as stronger than Dragon Slayer Magic. Just as Zancrow overpowered Natsu and Chelia overpowered Wendy.

Well, its not just because we know more about them. It's just that dragon slayer magic produce stronger characters. We have dragon slayers like Igneel-powered Natsu, God Serena, and Laxus. Plus, all dragons are dragon slayers. This means Igneel, Metallicana, Grandeeney, Skiadrum, and Metallicana would all be dragon slayers. The strongest character in the series is Acnologia, and he is a dragon slayer. The strongest god slayer in this series is Chelia, and that version of Chelia is literally the strongest version of Chelia we will ever see.

I wouldn't say dragons are stronger than gods. God War Magic is more a magic type than a 'real' god. Up to now we've only seen one real god (which is confirmed) and that's Chronos. Chronos should be superior to dragons due to Age Seal. Natsu may have fodderized some fake god, but he won't stand a chance against Chronos at all.

Orga never had the opportunity to fight someone above the leagues of Quatro Ceberus. He was blitzed by Jura, so we won't know what would've happened if his Lightning Cannon would've hit him.

I think Chelia is underestimated a lot, even without Third Origin. Her ability to heal herself after she's attacked is pretty overpowered. She may not be able to fight on par with the Dragon Slayers like Natsu and Gajeel, but that's only because they're much older (that's why I compared her to Wendy).

The magic that Arlock uses was summoning magic, and it summons a god. Why would Ikusa-Tsunagi not be a real god? There's not one instance in the manga where it says that the Yakuma 18 Battle Gods are not real gods. I don't see why he wouldn't be one if we're looking at what he can do. He's got one of the largest AoE for an attack in the series, and the same attack that took out Ikusa-Tsunagi would also take out a Spriggan 12. At the very least, Ikusa-Tsunagi is more impressive than the Plant God, Kemokemo, that was introduced in the light-novel.

Spoiler: Kemokemo baby

Spoiler: Kemokemo grown

Chronos is also a god, but she's not really stronger than any dragon when it comes to actual combat. She can Age Seal them, but I doubt she can take them out once she's trapped them. Even if she could take out the weakest dragons like Zilconis, she would do next to nothing against a dragon like Igneel or any of the parent dragons. Natsu would lose to Dimaria due to age seal, but so too would third origin Chelia. If Natsu had Ultear negating the effects of Age Seal like Chelia did, he too would beat Dimaria in a straight up fight. And even if Natsu couldn't, other dragon slayers like Laxus or Acnologia certainly would.

Jura has managed to block spells like Grand Chariot, and Orga's spells isn't really anything more impressive in terms of AoE than any of Natsu's LFD attacks. Jellal deemed that he had to use his best spell, that was Sema, to take out Jura. Laxus himself had to use his dragon slayer secret art to take out Jura. I doubt Orga's attack would have done much, all things considered. Wendy was almost on Chelia's level during the grand magic games. Now that Wendy has dragon force, Wendy would be at least Chelia's equal if not superior - discounting 3rd origin.

 

[EmberSpirit]

CS Magic has been in existence 400 years ago since the days Anna and the Dragon Slayers.It is as old as Dragon Slaying Magic if not older.So will you still not call it ancient?

That's not important.

Elemental magic like water, fire, earth, wind, light, dark are probably older than all of them. It doesn't make them ancient.

 

[reesestl]

Seems like ancient magic can be classified into Dark Magic and WHite magic by source of origin. These two have always been in conflict with each other. Eileen talk about the fight between white and black angel. As Hades said, magic had its origin in darkness. White magic may have arisen in order to combat against black magic. MAvis comments how holiness is a component of Sting's white magic. Hades creates a powerful source of white magic in his quest to treat the curse of ANkhseram. Zeref aims to combine these two ancient forms of magic to defeat the Black Dragon. END may have possessed both kinds of spells. Tartaros' quest for END has also been referred to as search for the White Legacy along with Face. That maybe the reason why Acno was afraid of the revival of END.

On a sidenote, Celestial MAgic may be considered as Ancient magic but not Lost magic. Not all ancient spells are lost. Celestial keys were openly available on a Magic shop. Though the golden keys have been monopolised by two mages, there maybe other Celestial MAges holding Plue keys. I consider CM as Ancient magic because my hunch is the connection b/w Celestial world and the Fairy world is old and dates back to the times of origin of magic.

 

[Arjuna]

That's not important.

Elemental magic like water, fire, earth, wind, light, dark are probably older than all of them. It doesn't make them ancient.

In Fairytail any spell i.e. over 400 years old is considered ancient magic.We find it's reference as old as Dragon Slaying Magic's existence period.

 

[EmberSpirit]

In Fairytail any spell i.e. over 400 years old is considered ancient magic.We find it's reference as old as Dragon Slaying Magic's existence period.

Most magic are ancient if that's what it takes. I am sure magic like telekinesis or simple element magic is older than 400 years.

 

[Arjuna]

Most magic are ancient if that's what it takes. I am sure magic like telekinesis or simple element magic is older than 400 years.

That is not the case.In Fairytail since the beginning we have taken spells that are atleast as old as 400 years as ancient spells.The one that you mentioned have no evidence in the manga that it is as ancient as CS Magic.

 

[EmberSpirit]

That is not the case.In Fairytail since the beginning we have taken spells that are atleast as old as 400 years as ancient spells.The one that you mentioned have no evidence in the manga that it is as ancient as CS Magic.

You tell yourself that elemental magic didn't exist 400 years ago. Mildian Magic Academy mages probably didn't have any idea that fire or water magic existed too, right? Any simple spell probably existed longer than more complicated ones.

 

[Arjuna]

You tell yourself that elemental magic didn't exist 400 years ago. Mildian Magic Academy mages probably didn't have any idea that fire or water magic existed too, right?

I don't know.I have repeated many times that spells which have origin in ancient time are classified as ancient spells.Spells belonging to this category are Dragon Slaying Magic,Lost Magic,CS Magic,Dark Arts and probably God Slaying Magic.Now you tell me CS Magic existed at a time when Dragons still existed in Earthland.Eclipse Gate was first used at that time.Are this events ancient or recent in your opinion?

 

[EmberSpirit]

I don't know.I have repeated many times that spells which have origin in ancient time are classified as ancient spells.Spells belonging to this category are Dragon Slaying Magic,Lost Magic,CS Magic and probably God Slaying Magic.Now you tell me CS Magic existed at a time when Dragons still existed in Earthland.Eclipse Gate was first used at that time.Are this events ancient or recent in your opinion?

I think Ancient Magic and Lost Magic is used almost interchangeably in Fairy Tail.
Main meaning of the word ancient is that "it's very old and no longer exists."
Makarov refers to August as someone who can control ancient elements in addition to common elements like light, dark and air.
We know dark magic, light magic etc. existed since Zeref's times. That doesn't appear to make them ancient since they are common.

 

[Arjuna]

I think Ancient Magic and Lost Magic is used almost interchangeably in Fairy Tail.
Main meaning of the word ancient is that "it's very old and no longer exists."
Makarov refers to August as someone who can control ancient elements in addition to common elements like light, dark and air.
We know dark magic, light magic etc. existed since Zeref's times. That doesn't appear to make them ancient since they are common.

@BluePegasus distinguished this two in this thread.He said there are two types in this thread Ancient or Lost.CS Magic is not lost.But it is ancient because it is as old as Dragon Slaying Magic.

 

[EmberSpirit]

@BluePegasus distinguished this two in this thread.He said there are two types in this thread Ancient or Lost.CS Magic is not lost.But it is ancient because it is as old as Dragon Slaying Magic.

I don't remember it being distinguished so clearly in the manga. As I said, elemental magic goes as old as dragon slaying magic. 400+ years. Common elements like dark magic don't count as ancient according to Makarov.

 

[reesestl]

I think Ancient Magic and Lost Magic is used almost interchangeably in Fairy Tail.
Main meaning of the word ancient is that "it's very old and no longer exists."
Makarov refers to August as someone who can control ancient elements in addition to common elements like light, dark and air.
We know dark magic, light magic etc. existed since Zeref's times. That doesn't appear to make them ancient since they are common.

Hades said magic had its origin in darkness. SO the Magic of Origin was Dark magic. SO it must be ancient.

 

[EmberSpirit]

Hades said magic had its origin in darkness. SO the Magic of Origin was Dark magic. SO it must be ancient.

I just said elemental magic is probably older than magic like CS and DS though. No surprise there. I don't know why you bring that up.
We all know it's love. This is Fairy Tail.

 

[reesestl]

Can someone give some examples of ANcient magic which is not Lost Magic?
Can Celestial Spirit MAgic be considered in this group?

I just said elemental magic is probably older than magic like CS and DS though. No surprise there. I don't know why you bring that up.
We all know it's love. This is Fairy Tail.

U said dark magic is not ancient. It was response to that.
ALso WHere does MAkarov say Dark MAgic doesn't count as ancient? He said it doesn't matte what the origins of magic were as the purpose of it changes with time.

 

[BluePegasus]

Can someone give some examples of ANcient magic which is not Lost Magic?
Can Celestial Spirit MAgic be considered in this group?

U said dark magic is not ancient. It was response to that.
ALso WHere does MAkarov say Dark MAgic doesn't count as ancient? He said it doesn't matte what the origins of magic were as the purpose of it changes with time.

Ancient Spells that aren't considered as Lost Magic are Nirvana, Memory-Make and Black Arts. Celestial Spirit Magic has never been stated to be a type of Ancient Spell. I don't think it is either. It's true that spirits existed from the beginning of ages, but that doesn't say Celestial Spirit Magic already existed as well.

 

[EmberSpirit]

Can someone give some examples of ANcient magic which is not Lost Magic?
Can Celestial Spirit MAgic be considered in this group?

U said dark magic is not ancient. It was response to that.
ALso WHere does MAkarov say Dark MAgic doesn't count as ancient? He said it doesn't matte what the origins of magic were as the purpose of it changes with time.

Makarov states that August can control ancient elements in addition to normal ones. We know he doesn't mean dark by ancient. Dark and light magic is pretty common in FT for Makarov to make that special statement.

I used to thought that ancient magic is lost magic but I guess I'm wrong... if ancient magic is magic from long time ago then cs is ancient magic .

The spirit existence is longer than dragon right? If I'm not wrong the spirit existed from a very very very long time ago lol. I think it's stated somewhere that the spirit existed since forever.

Spirits existed for a long time. Same spirits who use common magic like gravity and water.
If celestial spirit magic is ancient just because it's 400+ years old, then magic they use like gravity and water should count as ancient too.

Ancient Spells that aren't considered as Lost Magic are Nirvana, Memory-Make and Black Arts. Celestial Magic has never been stated to be a type of Ancient Spell. I don't think it is either. It's true that spirits existed from the beginning of ages, but that doesn't say Celestial Magic already existed as well.

This is plausible.
400 years shouldn't count as ancient in my opinion.

 

[Arjuna]

Ancient Spells that aren't considered as Lost Magic are Nirvana, Memory-Make and Black Arts. Celestial Spirit Magic has never been stated to be a type of Ancient Spell. I don't think it is either. It's true that spirits existed from the beginning of ages, but that doesn't say Celestial Spirit Magic already existed as well.

We have CS Mage Anna in the days of Zeref,END,Acnologia and Igneel.She used CS Magic to bring the Dragon Slayers in this era.So CS Magic was used when Dragon Slaging Magic was first used.

 

[EmberSpirit]

I don't really know , the mages that use cs magic have a wide range or power and we could never know what they could pull off . For example urano metroia .

But does it really matter ? Ancient or not every magic have their own specialty . Ancient magic is just rare and like I said here

It doesn't matter. Ancient magic was just a way to make an old magic sound better. Then Universe One happened.