Fantasy August Dragneel vs Diabolos Guild

[WoWfan]

Especially when it comes to conditions for the heroes victories.

 

[atlantisreturns]

August stomps.



Acnologia did catch up to Christina, and he can rip the guts out of the dragon slayers if he wanted to. The only reason he didn't was because he wanted them alive, and was toying around with them. He only got serious when Wendy started to enchant all their powers into Natsu, and by then it was too late because Fairy Sphere had already trapped his body. The difference between Acnologia fighting the dragon slayers and say.... Irene vs Erza and Wendy, is that Irene used her best attack against Erza with her deus sema. Acnologia just kicked the dragon slayers around and gloated. Now I don't agree at all that Erza or Wendy had more magic power than Irene, they don't. That doesn't change the fact that they pushed Irene to a high difficulty fight.

Also, Jellal didn't give Acnologia a high diff fight. He did, however, do better than most of the dragon slayers against Acnologia. So credit where credit is due.

I know very well. I am using his logic ( and your logic , if you agree with everything he said ) . He's only considering low showings of the Spriggans , and ignoring the high showings shown by them. He will bring up Larcade getting damaged by Sting's strike , but will ignore Laxus , Gildarts ( some try to say he was being pervy but meh ) , and Natsu were helpless against him. His logic is Natsu can defeat Ajeel , so Natsu > Brandish too. Ignoring that Brandish can shrink and expand Natsu's organs anytime she wants unless he's in DF or END. He will bring up Zeref and base Natsu fighting , ignoring we've got four sources of confirming Zeref was playing around : Zeref , Irene , Acnologia and Zeref oneshot immoblizing Natsu at the end of the fight. So I thought I might as well ignore Acnologia's good showings and only consider his low showings. Ignore the fact he was playing around.

High difficulty fight ? Erza getting her bones broken from a single swipe from Irene is high difficulty ? All Irene needed to do is stomp her foot on Erza in an Acnologia fashion. Erza would've been d.e.a.d.

According to the logic we're using right now , yes Jellal gave Acno a high diff fight. Also don't forget Acno was massively amped with ROT while fighting the DS while he wasn't while fighting Jellal.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 9, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 9, 2019 ---

I disagree with the Spriggans being weak, but there's no denying that most of the core members of the Fairy Tail hit harder and can take harder hits. August and Irene aside, once you get around their hax most of the Spriggans are no better than Gajeel when it comes to a brawl. Some like Jacob and Neinhart (and I would even argue Brandish) are far worse. None would match someone like Laxus.

Why should you not consider their hax ? Hax is all the Spriggans are built upon. Hitting isn't everything. Hitting doesn't always help you win a fight. Natsu can hit a lot harder yet can get his organs exploded if he tries to fight Brandish. Laxus can hit really hard yet will get ragdolled against Larcade because of his hax. You're taking away the Spriggans' key ace up their sleeve and telling them to fight.

Now contrary to what you may believe , I don't dispute all of the Spriggan fights as PiS. No , not at all. I agree Enhanced Neinhart getting two shotted by Natsu was legit because he had shit durability. I agree Invel losing to Gray was legit. I agree Erza defeating Ajeel was legit. I agree Laxus hitting and killing Wahl with red lightning was legit. I agree Jellal defeating Neinhart with grand chariot was legit.

Now , what I disagree. The fact that people forget Larcade could've anytime killed Sting when he was affected by Hunger. Especially here :

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The fact that people ignore Sting had many convenient counters against Larcade.

I've seen this logic : "Natsu two shotted Enhanced Neinhart , and Brandish couldn't stop him , so Natsu > Brandish !"

It doesn't mean anything. It signifies Neinhart's durability was shit , nothing else. He literally came in front of Natsu to get punched by him. If Natsu defeats him in a real battle where he summons all of his historia ( a lot powerful than before now ) , I would agree.

There are many other examples where the fight is situational. The low showings are situational. And you ignore the context of the fight and only consider the low showings , ignoring the good feats they've shown before. That's precisely lowballing.

 

[Seven777]

I know very well. I am using his logic ( and your logic , if you agree with everything he said ) . He's only considering low showings of the Spriggans , and ignoring the high showings shown by them. He will bring up Larcade getting damaged by Sting's strike , but will ignore Laxus , Gildarts ( some try to say he was being pervy but meh ) , and Natsu were helpless against him. His logic is Natsu can defeat Ajeel , so Natsu > Brandish too. Ignoring that Brandish can shrink and expand Natsu's organs anytime she wants unless he's in DF or END. He will bring up Zeref and base Natsu fighting , ignoring we've got four sources of confirming Zeref was playing around : Zeref , Irene , Acnologia and Zeref oneshot immoblizing Natsu at the end of the fight. So I thought I might as well ignore Acnologia's good showings and only consider his low showings. Ignore the fact he was playing around.

High difficulty fight ? Erza getting her bones broken from a single swipe from Irene is high difficulty ? All Irene needed to do is stomp her foot on Erza in an Acnologia fashion. Erza would've been d.e.a.d.

According to the logic we're using right now , yes Jellal gave Acno a high diff fight. Also don't forget Acno was massively amped with ROT while fighting the DS while he wasn't while fighting Jellal.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 9, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 9, 2019 ---

Why should you not consider their hax ? Hax is all the Spriggans are built upon. Hitting isn't everything. Hitting doesn't always help you win a fight. Natsu can hit a lot harder yet can get his organs exploded if he tries to fight Brandish. Laxus can hit really hard yet will get ragdolled against Larcade because of his hax. You're taking away the Spriggans' key ace up their sleeve and telling them to fight.

Now contrary to what you may believe , I don't dispute all of the Spriggan fights as PiS. No , not at all. I agree Enhanced Neinhart getting two shotted by Natsu was legit because he had shit durability. I agree Invel losing to Gray was legit. I agree Erza defeating Ajeel was legit. I agree Laxus hitting and killing Wahl with red lightning was legit. I agree Jellal defeating Neinhart with grand chariot was legit.

Now , what I disagree. The fact that people forget Larcade could've anytime killed Sting when he was affected by Hunger. Especially here :

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The fact that people ignore Sting had many convenient counters against Larcade.

I've seen this logic : "Natsu two shotted Enhanced Neinhart , and Brandish couldn't stop him , so Natsu > Brandish !"

It doesn't mean anything. It signifies Neinhart's durability was shit , nothing else. He literally came in front of Natsu to get punched by him. If Natsu defeats him in a real battle where he summons all of his historia ( a lot powerful than before now ) , I would agree.

There are many other examples where the fight is situational. The low showings are situational. And you ignore the context of the fight and only consider the low showings , ignoring the good feats they've shown before. That's precisely lowballing.

It's not that I'm ignoring the Spriggans high showings, it's merely that if there is an unknown or unproven factor about them in a battle I'll give Fairy Tail members the benefit of the doubt over spriggans every single time, because FT have earned it, and because Spriggan's high showings don't erase their low showings.

 

[atlantisreturns]

It's not that I'm ignoring the Spriggans high showings, it's merely that if there is an unknown or unproven factor about them in a battle I'll give Fairy Tail members the benefit of the doubt over spriggans every single time, because FT have earned it, and because Spriggan's high showings don't erase their low showings.

What unknown factor ? That Larcade can't affect Sting with his hunger ? No , he has proved that he can affect someone like Sting with his hunger. It isn't all talk , he has proved it. He has proved he can affect people who are a lot stronger than Sting like Laxus on the battlefield. When you pit him up against someone like may be Natsu , you point out his loss to Sting , but you don't point out how he floored Laxus with his spells. You don't realise that Sting was IMMUNE to his spells. Even Natsu got affected by his RIP and was unable to do anything against him. You're giving Natsu immunity to RIP simply because Larcade lost to Sting ( which was situational btw ) , and your logic was proven wrong. Larcade's RIP indeed did affect Natsu , no amount of mental gymnastics can change that. Larcade's loss to Sting was situational and had a lot of factors behind it ; Natsu and Laxus being affected by Larcade's spells wasn't situational. Larcade used his hax , Natsu and Laxus were unable to do anything , clear cut simple. It wasn't like they were exclusively weak to Larcade like Mard Geer was weak to Gray. His magic affected them as it should affect any other person. The only assumption going on here is you giving Laxus and Natsu immunity to Larcade's spells even though literally nothing suggests even close to that. If you were to say Gajeel is immune to Larcade's RIP , I would agree. What has Natsu got to say he can shrug off RIP ? When we have on panel scans of it affecting him ?

Oh , and btw , even if we were to use the hierarchy logic , Brandish can easily manipulate Natsu's organs , and Larcade is superior to Brandish. So , Larcade > Base Natsu.

 

[Seven777]

What unknown factor ? That Larcade can't affect Sting with his hunger ? No , he has proved that he can affect someone like Sting with his hunger. It isn't all talk , he has proved it. He has proved he can affect people who are a lot stronger than Sting like Laxus on the battlefield. When you pit him up against someone like may be Natsu , you point out his loss to Sting , but you don't point out how he floored Laxus with his spells. You don't realise that Sting was IMMUNE to his spells. Even Natsu got affected by his RIP and was unable to do anything against him. You're giving Natsu immunity to RIP simply because Larcade lost to Sting ( which was situational btw ) , and your logic was proven wrong. Larcade's RIP indeed did affect Natsu , no amount of mental gymnastics can change that. Larcade's loss to Sting was situational and had a lot of factors behind it ; Natsu and Laxus being affected by Larcade's spells wasn't situational. Larcade used his hax , Natsu and Laxus were unable to do anything , clear cut simple. It wasn't like they were exclusively weak to Larcade like Mard Geer was weak to Gray. His magic affected them as it should affect any other person. The only assumption going on here is you giving Laxus and Natsu immunity to Larcade's spells even though literally nothing suggests even close to that. If you were to say Gajeel is immune to Larcade's RIP , I would agree. What has Natsu got to say he can shrug off RIP ? When we have on panel scans of it affecting him ?

Oh , and btw , even if we were to use the hierarchy logic , Brandish can easily manipulate Natsu's organs , and Larcade is superior to Brandish. So , Larcade > Base Natsu.

Anything and everything. If there's anything unknown about a spriggan's abilities, who it works on, the damage it deals, how quickly it can be activated, I'll give Fairy Tail the benefit of the doubt.

For your other points, don't really feel the need to go over them again, but I'll give you a short summary of my view.
Pleasure: Didn't K.O Laxus or Gildart's, it just affected them. Laxus and Gildarts get the benefit of the doubt.
RIP: Didn't beat Natsu, didn't beat Sting, didn't beat trashed Rogue or trashed Kagura. Good guys get the benefit of the doubt.
Organ bust: Never used in combat, FT members get the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Loke]

I wonder if august copying ds magic would grant him the ability to see wraith but the others all get negged

 

[WoWfan]

I wonder if august copying ds magic would grant him the ability to see wraith but the others all get negged

Well his Magic does seem to work regardless of him even being aware of the magic in process, or even blitzed

 

[Axiomus]

I know very well. I am using his logic ( and your logic , if you agree with everything he said ) . He's only considering low showings of the Spriggans , and ignoring the high showings shown by them. He will bring up Larcade getting damaged by Sting's strike , but will ignore Laxus , Gildarts ( some try to say he was being pervy but meh ) , and Natsu were helpless against him. His logic is Natsu can defeat Ajeel , so Natsu > Brandish too. Ignoring that Brandish can shrink and expand Natsu's organs anytime she wants unless he's in DF or END. He will bring up Zeref and base Natsu fighting , ignoring we've got four sources of confirming Zeref was playing around : Zeref , Irene , Acnologia and Zeref oneshot immoblizing Natsu at the end of the fight. So I thought I might as well ignore Acnologia's good showings and only consider his low showings. Ignore the fact he was playing around.

High difficulty fight ? Erza getting her bones broken from a single swipe from Irene is high difficulty ? All Irene needed to do is stomp her foot on Erza in an Acnologia fashion. Erza would've been d.e.a.d.

According to the logic we're using right now , yes Jellal gave Acno a high diff fight. Also don't forget Acno was massively amped with ROT while fighting the DS while he wasn't while fighting Jellal.

Agree with what @Seven77 said? About what? I don't agree with the Spriggans being weak, and I do consider their high showings overall. I just don't consider them stronger than the core Fairy Tail members in terms of how hard they hit and how hard they can get hit. August and Irene being the notable exceptions.

Yes, Erza and Wendy was a high difficulty fight. Yes, Irene could have possibly killed Erza with a stomp if she had gone for it. However, that just shows that Irene miscalculated. She underestimated what Erza could muster up even with all her bones broken. Deus Sema is still her strongest enchantment, and Erza broke it. Then Erza managed to cut Irene out of her dragon form. Then when Irene tried to stab Erza again, Erza headbutted her. Irene was in pretty bad shape when all is said and done, and Erza broke some of her strongest magics. So yes, I would count that as a high-difficulty fight.

In what way did Jellal give Acnologia a high difficulty fight?

 

[WoWfan]

I doubt that would have been the case for Irene as Erza would just do the same thing as before with an enchanted Sword and cut her down, in fact she would have likely made more serious blows to Irene if Irene risked getting into close quarters combat, Deus Sema is the most safest option. even then, There were fights with the Spriggan that could not be won without certain circumstances.

 

[atlantisreturns]

Agree with what @Seven77 said? About what? I don't agree with the Spriggans being weak, and I do consider their high showings overall. I just don't consider them stronger than the core Fairy Tail members in terms of how hard they hit and how hard they can get hit. August and Irene being the notable exceptions.

Yes, Erza and Wendy was a high difficulty fight. Yes, Irene could have possibly killed Erza with a stomp if she had gone for it. However, that just shows that Irene miscalculated. She underestimated what Erza could muster up even with all her bones broken. Deus Sema is still her strongest enchantment, and Erza broke it. Then Erza managed to cut Irene out of her dragon form. Then when Irene tried to stab Erza again, Erza headbutted her. Irene was in pretty bad shape when all is said and done, and Erza broke some of her strongest magics. So yes, I would count that as a high-difficulty fight.

In what way did Jellal give Acnologia a high difficulty fight?

Not every fight is about hitting other people necessarily. You always try to check whether the person hits harder , and rank them accordingly. You don't understand something called hax.

Your definition of "core" FT members ? Let's keep Gildarts aside here. Let's keep August , Irene and Larcade aside here too. Just the remaining Spriggans. Let's only consider Natsu , Gajeel , Sting , Gray , Erza and Laxus here.

Brandish ? She already can no diff Natsu.

Dimaria ? She too can do the same unless Natsu's END.

God Serena ? Dude's got 8 dragon slaying magics , and was called by Gildarts himself to rival him. It isn't self boasting , Gildarts said it. He was known as the number one wizard when the GoI DID NOT KNOW that he was a Dragon Slayer.

Bloodman ? Dude didn't even use all of his curses , and was already giving Gajeel heck lot of trouble. Hadn't it been for Gajeel's DF boost , Bloodman would've mopped the floor despite using only half of his curses. Not to mention Gajeel was IMMUNE to MBPs.

Wahl ? Don't get me started here , he can just fly away and fire Etherion from a remote place. GG.

Invel ? Gave Gray an extreme difficulty fight , actually defeated him until Gray received his darkness powerup.

Jacob ? Don't get me started here too , he can insta BFR anyone in his way. And the range's so massive it covers the area even outside the guild.

Neinhart and Ajeel are by far the only ones you can really call "fodder" compared to FT "core" members.

And btw , if you didn't know , Hax > normal abilities. That's the reason it's called hax. It's a broken ability which gives you unfair advantage over normal abilities. Your logic is normal hitting strength > hax , which is a very absurd notion if you ask me.

If one lazy swipe is all it takes to knock a person out of a battle , then it isn't high difficulty. Simple. Erza cutting Deus Sema being a reason for it to be high difficulty is a very weird logic if you ask me , what protects Erza against Irene's attacks ? What resistance has Erza shown to protect herself ? All Irene needs is one swipe. It's like saying a master playing around with a noobie , while underestimating him , he accidentally gets damaged , so noobie gave him a high difficulty fight. It doesn't work like that , the portrayal has made it very clear Irene can end Erza whenever she wants . The swipe represents that.

It's because you take fights where one person was playing around literally. Irene was playing around with Erza , the portrayal made it clear when she broke her bones with a single swipe. Zeref was playing around with Natsu , portrayal made it clear when he one shot immobilized Natsu at the end. Larcade was cocky and arrogant against Sting , portrayal made it clear that he was standing there like a dumbass when Sting was lying helpless on the ground affected by his spell. You've got to understand these things. But for some reason , you either don't , or don't want to because it will debunk your headcanon about most of FT being stronger than Spriggans. So I thought I will use the same logic against you and consider Acnologia wasn't playing around with Jellal even when the portrayal makes it clear he was.

 

[Axiomus]

Not every fight is about hitting other people necessarily. You always try to check whether the person hits harder , and rank them accordingly. You don't understand something called hax.

Your definition of "core" FT members ? Let's keep Gildarts aside here. Let's keep August , Irene and Larcade aside here too. Just the remaining Spriggans. Let's only consider Natsu , Gajeel , Sting , Gray , Erza and Laxus here.

Brandish ? She already can no diff Natsu.

Dimaria ? She too can do the same unless Natsu's END.

God Serena ? Dude's got 8 dragon slaying magics , and was called by Gildarts himself to rival him. It isn't self boasting , Gildarts said it. He was known as the number one wizard when the GoI DID NOT KNOW that he was a Dragon Slayer.

Bloodman ? Dude didn't even use all of his curses , and was already giving Gajeel heck lot of trouble. Hadn't it been for Gajeel's DF boost , Bloodman would've mopped the floor despite using only half of his curses. Not to mention Gajeel was IMMUNE to MBPs.

Wahl ? Don't get me started here , he can just fly away and fire Etherion from a remote place. GG.

Invel ? Gave Gray an extreme difficulty fight , actually defeated him until Gray received his darkness powerup.

Jacob ? Don't get me started here too , he can insta BFR anyone in his way. And the range's so massive it covers the area even outside the guild.

Neinhart and Ajeel are by far the only ones you can really call "fodder" compared to FT "core" members.

And btw , if you didn't know , Hax > normal abilities. That's the reason it's called hax. It's a broken ability which gives you unfair advantage over normal abilities. Your logic is normal hitting strength > hax , which is a very absurd notion if you ask me.

If one lazy swipe is all it takes to knock a person out of a battle , then it isn't high difficulty. Simple. Erza cutting Deus Sema being a reason for it to be high difficulty is a very weird logic if you ask me , what protects Erza against Irene's attacks ? What resistance has Erza shown to protect herself ? All Irene needs is one swipe. It's like saying a master playing around with a noobie , while underestimating him , he accidentally gets damaged , so noobie gave him a high difficulty fight. It doesn't work like that , the portrayal has made it very clear Irene can end Erza whenever she wants . The swipe represents that.

It's because you take fights where one person was playing around literally. Irene was playing around with Erza , the portrayal made it clear when she broke her bones with a single swipe. Zeref was playing around with Natsu , portrayal made it clear when he one shot immobilized Natsu at the end. Larcade was cocky and arrogant against Sting , portrayal made it clear that he was standing there like a dumbass when Sting was lying helpless on the ground affected by his spell. You've got to understand these things. But for some reason , you either don't , or don't want to because it will debunk your headcanon about most of FT being stronger than Spriggans. So I thought I will use the same logic against you and consider Acnologia wasn't playing around with Jellal even when the portrayal makes it clear he was.

All fights are about hitting people. There are only 4 things that truly matter in a fight. How hard you hit, how hard you can get hit, how many hits you can land, and how good you are at avoiding getting hit. Abilities that are considered hax is usually just a really efficient way of landing hits without being hit. My power ranking is different from yours, not because I don't acknowledge hax, but because I don't rank characters based on what I think they can do with their abilities. I rank characters based on what they actually show with those abilities.

Core Fairy Tail members is Natsu, Erza, Gray, Gajeel, Laxus, and anyone at or above their level. As for the Spriggans:

• Brandish can no diff anyone her magic works on, but they don't work if someone is too strong as we've seen with END and enchanted Neinhart. In a hand to hand fight, Brandish hasn't shown anything impressive.
• Dimaria is pretty much in the same boat as Brandish as to what can overcome her hax, but she's more impressive in direct combat than Brandish due to her takeover. Still, Dimaria got 2-shoted by Natsu with END's power. Natsu at time was was at best on par with Gray and weaker than Erza.
• God Serena gets props for being a dragon slayer, but the number of elements doesn't really matter to be honest. Gildarts never stated that God Serena was a rival. Just that he would have liked to fought him while he was alive. I don't know why people think he was Gildart's rival or something. We can't really say anything about what God Serena's power would have been like, but it's unlikely he would be much stronger than Wall.
• Wall is great at combat. No complaints here. He was still killed by Laxus by the first hit that worked on him. Yes, killed.
• Bloodman not using all curses doesn't really mean anything. By Bloodman's own evaluation, his over skelter surpasses the curses of the 9 Demon Gates, which means that the only curse that is stronger is Mard Geer's thorn brambles. Gajeel took that too. Gajeel's black iron form was never stated to be dragon force. If you want to call Gajeel's form dragon force based on the scale pattern, then Cobra and Laxus should also be considered as having DF. That's a whole different can of worms. Since Bloodman's particles were anti-magic particles, it wouldn't have given Gajeel any boost in magic power. It simply changed the nature of Gajeel's magic to that of a Bloodman's curse power, and that allowed him to touch Bloodman.
• Invel is good too. But again, stomped by Gray when he had POF.
• Jacob, even with transport, is only theoretically impressive. In actual practice, he is worse than Neinhart. Jacob actually has the potential to no diff anyone if he actually sneaks around in stealth and claps everyone in transport. Except that's not what he does. What Jacob actually does in most of his fights is go around trying to slap people in stealth, which is honestly the most inefficient strategy for someone with his abilities. Especially considering the fact that Jacob's attack power is the most underwhelming among the Spriggans. Jacob fought Mirajane without a takeover for the entire duration of the second battle, up until Irene died and universe one dissolved. When Mirajane finally musters up enough magic power to use a takeover, she oneshots him. The best part about all of this? The only reason Mirajane could even touch him was because he closed his eyes. Mirajane tracked him only because she saw his footprints in the grass. Jacob literally had to run blind into Mirajane's fist.
• Ajeel is actually the most underrated members of the Spriggan 12. He is basically the sand version of Invel. He has some of the largest AoE in the series with Sand World, and his hax is just as good as any. Can anyone actually hit Ajeel in Sand World if he chooses actively to hide? He can merge with the sand, and has the space of an entire city to work with. But again, I don't measure characters based on what I think they can do. He lost to Elfman and Lisanna.
• Neinhart is also underrated. He has enough attack power with the ability to knock out Jellal (who can no sell Kyria's roar) and his Historia managed to occupy half the guild at a time. His only "weakness" is that he has "bad" durability. Except he was up against Erza and Jellal at the same time, and then went up against Natsu. So I wouldn't even call his durability bad. We've seen people like Brandish get knocked out by Cana and cut up by Dimaria using a regular knife.

One lazy swipe wasn't enough to knock Erza out. It cracked her bones, but evidently Erza still had enough power left in her to smash deus sema, cut Irene out of her dragon form, and then headbutt her. Irene wasn't playing around with Erza. She was trying to kill Erza and everyone on the battlefield with deus sema. Your argument that Irene underestimate Erza doesn't work simply for the fact that Irene ended up trying to use her strongest attack anyways. Irene didn't use deus sema because it was a weak floppy attack. She used deus sema because she wanted to kill everybody on the battlefield. The fact that she underestimated the strength Erza could muster up doesn't really change anything. Erza was able to smash her strongest attack and cut her out of her dragon form. There is nothing that Irene has in her arsenal that is stronger than those abilities, and Erza overcame them. She beat Erza simply by outlasting Erza's in sheer endurance. Take a look at Irene's condition at the end of the battle. Just look at her. There's no possible way Acnologia vs Jellal was a high difficulty fight when this wasn't.

Spoiler: Irene and Erza's final moments

 

[atlantisreturns]

All fights are about hitting people. There are only 4 things that truly matter in a fight. How hard you hit, how hard you can get hit, how many hits you can land, and how good you are at avoiding getting hit. Abilities that are considered hax is usually just a really efficient way of landing hits without being hit. My power ranking is different from yours, not because I don't acknowledge hax, but because I don't rank characters based on what I think they can do with their abilities. I rank characters based on what they actually show with those abilities.

Core Fairy Tail members is Natsu, Erza, Gray, Gajeel, Laxus, and anyone at or above their level. As for the Spriggans:

• Brandish can no diff anyone her magic works on, but they don't work if someone is too strong as we've seen with END and enchanted Neinhart. In a hand to hand fight, Brandish hasn't shown anything impressive.
• Dimaria is pretty much in the same boat as Brandish as to what can overcome her hax, but she's more impressive in direct combat than Brandish due to her takeover. Still, Dimaria got 2-shoted by Natsu with END's power. Natsu at time was was at best on par with Gray and weaker than Erza.
• God Serena gets props for being a dragon slayer, but the number of elements doesn't really matter to be honest. Gildarts never stated that God Serena was a rival. Just that he would have liked to fought him while he was alive. I don't know why people think he was Gildart's rival or something. We can't really say anything about what God Serena's power would have been like, but it's unlikely he would be much stronger than Wall.
• Wall is great at combat. No complaints here. He was still killed by Laxus by the first hit that worked on him. Yes, killed.
• Bloodman not using all curses doesn't really mean anything. By Bloodman's own evaluation, his over skelter surpasses the curses of the 9 Demon Gates, which means that the only curse that is stronger is Mard Geer's thorn brambles. Gajeel took that too. Gajeel's black iron form was never stated to be dragon force. If you want to call Gajeel's form dragon force based on the scale pattern, then Cobra and Laxus should also be considered as having DF. That's a whole different can of worms. Since Bloodman's particles were anti-magic particles, it wouldn't have given Gajeel any boost in magic power. It simply changed the nature of Gajeel's magic to that of a Bloodman's curse power, and that allowed him to touch Bloodman.
• Invel is good too. But again, stomped by Gray when he had POF.
• Jacob, even with transport, is only theoretically impressive. In actual practice, he is worse than Neinhart. Jacob actually has the potential to no diff anyone if he actually sneaks around in stealth and claps everyone in transport. Except that's not what he does. What Jacob actually does in most of his fights is go around trying to slap people in stealth, which is honestly the most inefficient strategy for someone with his abilities. Especially considering the fact that Jacob's attack power is the most underwhelming among the Spriggans. Jacob fought Mirajane without a takeover for the entire duration of the second battle, up until Irene died and universe one dissolved. When Mirajane finally musters up enough magic power to use a takeover, she oneshots him. The best part about all of this? The only reason Mirajane could even touch him was because he closed his eyes. Mirajane tracked him only because she saw his footprints in the grass. Jacob literally had to run blind into Mirajane's fist.
• Ajeel is actually the most underrated members of the Spriggan 12. He is basically the sand version of Invel. He has some of the largest AoE in the series with Sand World, and his hax is just as good as any. Can anyone actually hit Ajeel in Sand World if he chooses actively to hide? He can merge with the sand, and has the space of an entire city to work with. But again, I don't measure characters based on what I think they can do. He lost to Elfman and Lisanna.
• Neinhart is also underrated. He has enough attack power with the ability to knock out Jellal (who can no sell Kyria's roar) and his Historia managed to occupy half the guild at a time. His only "weakness" is that he has "bad" durability. Except he was up against Erza and Jellal at the same time, and then went up against Natsu. So I wouldn't even call his durability bad. We've seen people like Brandish get knocked out by Cana and cut up by Dimaria using a regular knife.

One lazy swipe wasn't enough to knock Erza out. It cracked her bones, but evidently Erza still had enough power left in her to smash deus sema, cut Irene out of her dragon form, and then headbutt her. Irene wasn't playing around with Erza. She was trying to kill Erza and everyone on the battlefield with deus sema. Your argument that Irene underestimate Erza doesn't work simply for the fact that Irene ended up trying to use her strongest attack anyways. Irene didn't use deus sema because it was a weak floppy attack. She used deus sema because she wanted to kill everybody on the battlefield. The fact that she underestimated the strength Erza could muster up doesn't really change anything. Erza was able to smash her strongest attack and cut her out of her dragon form. There is nothing that Irene has in her arsenal that is stronger than those abilities, and Erza overcame them. She beat Erza simply by outlasting Erza's in sheer endurance. Take a look at Irene's condition at the end of the battle. Just look at her. There's no possible way Acnologia vs Jellal was a high difficulty fight when this wasn't.

Spoiler: Irene and Erza's final moments

You may consider hitting as your parameter , but if you're classifying hax into hits too , them classify them as "one shot" hits. Because that's how hax works. That's the reason I don't want people to confuse between AoE destruction and hax. Hax > Normal hitting.

Yeah , and out of the core FT members , Brandish no diffs Natsu , Gajeel and Gray. Natsu and Gajeel because Natsu > Gajeel and Brandish controlled Natsu. You may say Gray fought on par with END , but don't forget Gray had Slayer advantage AS WELL AS his darkness feelings powerup which boosted him. He channeled his darkness into MP , which is what gave a huge boost to Gray. The same Gray was getting ragdolled against Invel. Also don't forget Gray was also scared after meeting Brandish at Caracol island ( although it doesn't mean much , but still ).

Dimaria is pretty much in the same boot as Brandish , correct. Only she has got one more form where her MP is boosted even further. That is , when she calls Chronos into her body. Non jobbing Dimaria chops off everyone's heads.

Idk about other scans , but this is the correct translation :

Fairy Tail 496 - Read Fairy Tail 496 Online - Page 6

Fairy Tail 496 - Read Fairy Tail 496 Manga Scans Page 6. Free and No Registration required for Fairy Tail 496

www.mangapanda.com

Gildarts says God Serena would be a force to be reckoned with , even for him.

Again look , you're again focusing on Wahl's combat abilities. Why ? All he does is fly away and detonate Etherion from the sky , skadoosh , game over. There's no two ways about it , unless the person is so fast that Wahl can't react to him.

Whoops , okay I made a mistake it wasn't DF. My bad. The reference to Dragon Force was just on the previous page , as Sting's and Wendy's DF was referenced. And I thought he activated it in a fashion similar to Natsu , by absorbing poisonous iron. My bad. I guess I didn't read that properly.

Invel was stomped by Gray with feelings of darkness , a temporary boost. Not regular base Gray or DeS Gray. Some argue Gray could've eaten the ice , but Invel is a freezing specialist so eating ice wouldn't exactly help. Feelings of Darkness Gray > DeS Gray > Base Gray.

Yeah but that's what we call Plot Induced Stupidity don't we. What we do in battles is we consider their power sets , their feats , and then stage a theoretical battle where we decide whose feats are better. We consider both of them are going all out. There are two kinds of battles , one is in character and the other one is where the opponent goes all out and tries to finish the opponent as fast as possible , i.e. out of character. We're considering the second one here obviously. Because majority of Spriggans will lose if they're in character. Everyone acknowledges that. So Jacob does no diff here.

Ajeel lost to Elfman and Lisanna because :
1) Elfman was a direct counter to Ajeel.
2) Ajeel got weakened by Makarov's Fairy Law , and it affected him to an extent , considering he's one of the weaker Spriggans. Edit : This is just my opinion btw.

But I still rate him lesser than other Spriggans.

The fight between Erza and Irene isn't high difficulty because it requires just one swipe from Irene to break Erza's bones. It would require just one stomp from her hand to kill Erza. It would require no more than a second to enchant both Erza and Wendy into animals. We know this from Wendy herself , when in Irene's body said she could cast enchantments because her MP was more. Irene underestimated Erza , and so she was playing around , until Erza slashed her with her sword. Her condition wasn't good because she took the attack. You're bringing up the Deus Sema when Wendy on panel admits they can't do anything against Irene's enchantments. Irene's enchantments work on Erza and Wendy , she's proven it , so she could've just turned them into animals.

If I'm told to use my logic , I'll tell anyone flat Acno can rip apart Jellal's guts if he wants to. BUT , I'm using your logic here , to make you realise the fault in your argument. You aren't checking the context of the battle , you're just checking "Who won ?". That's not how things work.

 

[Ebony Maw]

It's not because his feats are "solid" , it's because he doesn't have any PIS low showings that made the viewers like him. Even the other Spriggans have got good feats , it's that users here ignore them because of their low showings. Ignoring the context of the fight , ignoring their good feats.

August did have some PIS:

- Never using Melt again (Melt being such a strong heat spell that it actually bypassed some of Natsu's heat resistance)
- Never using the Magic of Crime Sorciere again (had August used any more of this after using Meteor I firmly believe he would have mid/low-diffed Gildarts)
- Never using that beam attack he used against Mira (at the very least it should be on par with DiMaria's beam)

August is seen as different because even with PIS literally no one beat him. Even Gildarts looked to be losing considering August tanked his best spell and got back up with little more than a bloody lip.

 

[Kurumi Tokisaki]

2) Ajeel got weakened by Makarov's Fairy Law , and it affected him to an extent , considering he's one of the weaker Spriggans.

This is nothing but your headcanon since you got nothing to prove he was weakened by Fairy Law.

 

[atlantisreturns]

This is nothing but your headcanon since you got nothing to prove he was weakened by Fairy Law.

My bad , I should've mentioned it's my opinion , I forgot. Dunno how can I forget such a thing.

 

[Laxuseven]

I wonder if august copying ds magic would grant him the ability to see wraith but the others all get negged

he doesn't need DSmagic to see him, he already has j'acob's magic that allows him to see and even hurt wraith. Plus August already has DS magic, he copied all of god serena's magics so he stomps them

 

[Axiomus]

You may consider hitting as your parameter , but if you're classifying hax into hits too , them classify them as "one shot" hits. Because that's how hax works. That's the reason I don't want people to confuse between AoE destruction and hax. Hax > Normal hitting.

Yeah , and out of the core FT members , Brandish no diffs Natsu , Gajeel and Gray. Natsu and Gajeel because Natsu > Gajeel and Brandish controlled Natsu. You may say Gray fought on par with END , but don't forget Gray had Slayer advantage AS WELL AS his darkness feelings powerup which boosted him. He channeled his darkness into MP , which is what gave a huge boost to Gray. The same Gray was getting ragdolled against Invel. Also don't forget Gray was also scared after meeting Brandish at Caracol island ( although it doesn't mean much , but still ).

Dimaria is pretty much in the same boot as Brandish , correct. Only she has got one more form where her MP is boosted even further. That is , when she calls Chronos into her body. Non jobbing Dimaria chops off everyone's heads.

Idk about other scans , but this is the correct translation :

Fairy Tail 496 - Read Fairy Tail 496 Online - Page 6

Fairy Tail 496 - Read Fairy Tail 496 Manga Scans Page 6. Free and No Registration required for Fairy Tail 496

www.mangapanda.com

Gildarts says God Serena would be a force to be reckoned with , even for him.

Again look , you're again focusing on Wahl's combat abilities. Why ? All he does is fly away and detonate Etherion from the sky , skadoosh , game over. There's no two ways about it , unless the person is so fast that Wahl can't react to him.

Whoops , okay I made a mistake it wasn't DF. My bad. The reference to Dragon Force was just on the previous page , as Sting's and Wendy's DF was referenced. And I thought he activated it in a fashion similar to Natsu , by absorbing poisonous iron. My bad. I guess I didn't read that properly.

Invel was stomped by Gray with feelings of darkness , a temporary boost. Not regular base Gray or DeS Gray. Some argue Gray could've eaten the ice , but Invel is a freezing specialist so eating ice wouldn't exactly help. Feelings of Darkness Gray > DeS Gray > Base Gray.

Yeah but that's what we call Plot Induced Stupidity don't we. What we do in battles is we consider their power sets , their feats , and then stage a theoretical battle where we decide whose feats are better. We consider both of them are going all out. There are two kinds of battles , one is in character and the other one is where the opponent goes all out and tries to finish the opponent as fast as possible , i.e. out of character. We're considering the second one here obviously. Because majority of Spriggans will lose if they're in character. Everyone acknowledges that. So Jacob does no diff here.

Ajeel lost to Elfman and Lisanna because :
1) Elfman was a direct counter to Ajeel.
2) Ajeel got weakened by Makarov's Fairy Law , and it affected him to an extent , considering he's one of the weaker Spriggans. Edit : This is just my opinion btw.

But I still rate him lesser than other Spriggans.

The fight between Erza and Irene isn't high difficulty because it requires just one swipe from Irene to break Erza's bones. It would require just one stomp from her hand to kill Erza. It would require no more than a second to enchant both Erza and Wendy into animals. We know this from Wendy herself , when in Irene's body said she could cast enchantments because her MP was more. Irene underestimated Erza , and so she was playing around , until Erza slashed her with her sword. Her condition wasn't good because she took the attack. You're bringing up the Deus Sema when Wendy on panel admits they can't do anything against Irene's enchantments. Irene's enchantments work on Erza and Wendy , she's proven it , so she could've just turned them into animals.

If I'm told to use my logic , I'll tell anyone flat Acno can rip apart Jellal's guts if he wants to. BUT , I'm using your logic here , to make you realise the fault in your argument. You aren't checking the context of the battle , you're just checking "Who won ?". That's not how things work.

Not all hax are oneshots. Hax isn't below or above "normal hitting".

• Brandish also couldn't manipulate enchanted Neinhart. She was able to manipulate base Natsu when he's relatively calm, but I doubt she could manipulate any version of Natsu that is stronger than his END power's through POF. Same goes for Gray and Gajeel. If the Alvarez arc has taught us anything it's that magic power is useless if it doesn't translate over to feats.
• Chronos takeover is still inferior to END's power by Dimaria's own admission. Even with age seal, Dimaria can only hurt people who can be harmed by her regular knife. There are people with durability that can survive knife cuts. Some can outright tank it. But yes, Dimaria does generally easily win her fights because she gets free, unanswered shots.
• Gildarts said that if God Serena was alive he would be one hell of a wizard. This is the official translation, and the one closest to the raws. This proves that Gildarts considered Serena respectable. Not that they were equals.
  
  Spoiler: Offiicial scans

  
• Is that what Wall actually did? No. It's not. What Wall actually did was engage with Laxus for several minutes before even going into his assault mode, then stopped casting Etherion because it got countered by the runes, and then Laxus killed him with red lightning.
• Power of feelings is just a character fighting at their best. I don't consider Gray's power of feelings as being something completely separate from Gray. It's just Gray fighting at his peak. He will fight that way any time he's pushed to his limits, like he was with Invel.
• What happened to Jacob isn't PIS. It's CIS. It's consistent CIS, so really it's part of his character. At a certain point, you have to stop making excuses for the character and acknowledge that they just don't perform. Again, I don't base my power-rankings based on what I think characters do. I base it based on what they actually do. You can have the best abilities in the world on paper, and Jacob's is pretty good. He just never uses them effectively.
• Even if it too just one swipe to break Erza's bones, Erza still had enough fight left in her to shatter Deus Sema and cut Irene out of her dragon form. Irene wasn't playing around when she cast Deus Sema. That spell was meant to kill Erza and everyone on the battlefield. Even if you argue that she underestimated Erza, deus sema was still her strongest enchantment. After Erza broke that, it's not like she had a stronger enchantment to use. Then Erza turned around and cut her out of her dragon form. By the end of the fight, Irene was heavily beaten up. She was staggering. She was bleeding from the cuts to her belly. She was bleeding from to cuts to her face and neck. She coughed up blood when Erza headbutted her. Her condition warrants a high difficulty fight. Enchanting people into animals isn't something Irene has ever done, except to fodders. My logic isn't really "who won". It's "what happened". For example, Erza and Wendy didn't even beat Irene. That's not what happened. What happened was Erza and Wendy managed to break Irene's strongest enchantment, cut her out of her dragon form, and hurt Irene quite a bit. Irene still ended up winning the fight because she could stand by the very end, but there's no denying that she was in a bad shape.

 

[MangerDan]

Would Crash magic be effective against Madmole?

 

[Seven777]

Gray's PoF powerup against Invel isn't Gray just fighting harder or running on his emotions, it's a legitimate powerup that made his overall strength greater. The negative feelings of Juvia's death released Gray's darkness, so he went from Invel's equal in DeS mode, to stronger in Base.

Would Crash magic be effective against Madmole?

The cubing would probably do the job, but at the same time I could easily see Mashima writing "The Armor Dragon has resistance to being cubed"

 

[WoWfan]

Not that power of feelings isn’t a power up anyway for any character, Invel was already stronger than DS Gray, he just needed the boost because that was Invel’s intention. @MangerDan August is already thousands of times stronger than Madmole will ever be.