Fantasy August vs Irene

[LaGOAT]

Maybe depends on how strong the dragon is.

Exactly which is my point so like Wendy ds magic could put damage on Irene. August could too

 

[Arjuna]

Exactly which is my point so like Wendy ds magic could put damage on Irene. August could too

Atlas Flame was already dead at that time.Silver only frooze his spirit.But when his spirit was somewhat revived,even in his spirit form he was able to melt Silver's ice.

 

[LaGOAT]

Atlas Flame was already dead at that time.Silver only frooze his spirit.But when his spirit was somewhat revived,even in his spirit form he was able to melt Silver's ice.

Show me panels don't remember that

 

[Arjuna]

Show me panels don't remember that

Read it.It is in chapter 353.

This is the chapter where Atlas Flame first mentions about END.

 

[sharkai]

Dragons in general have been stated to be too powerful to kill normally, however there has been no real mention of "immunity" to magic. The fact that all those dragons could go through eclipse proves otherwise.

Just like Eileen also "straight up lied" about the Meteor being impossible to destroy by a human right? I guess since one human destroyed that Meteor that means that any human no matter how weak can destroy it too, right? Me assuming August can use most magic based on his statement is no different from you assuming the Meteor cant be sliced by most humans. Just because there were proven exceptions to both statements, doesnt mean that they are entirely untrue.

I agree its a plot hole that Eileen turns back into a human.

August knows Fire Dragon Slayer magic.
Normal dragons dont turn into humans when they get hit by DS magic.
I said Eileen couldve soloed fodder dragons, and even Zirconis tiers, just not any "leader" tier dragons like Motherglare or Parent Dragons.
August is Eileen's equal minimum, so its only natural for me to assume that he'd beat her if he had Slayer advantage over her.

No just stop
August lied about his abilities. He does not know all magic. He only copies them

Irene believed that no human can stop it. Which basically means no human that she came across could. Simple

No he does not know any ds magic. Because no dragon gave it to him.

If we give benefit of doubt to august and have him have nienhart magic. Than give benefit of doubt to irene too. And she stare them away like erza did.

Maybe he could beat her if he had ds. But its basically
Natsu (August) vs df natsu (dragon irene). Its gonna b very hard to believe.
Basically a new dragon slayer beating and old experienced dragon slayer.

And i like how you twist things around
Like you believe august can indeed copy and have nienhart magic. And yet at the same time give zero shit about irene dues sema claim.
Also like how august at minimum is at irene level even though both mira and mavis saw human irene and red form august.
And brandish might not ever have even seen irene dragon form.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 11, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 11, 2017 ---

She said she is the strongest woman if she was the strongest sprrigan she would have said that simple as that. No since u want to play that game where u like to pick and choose statements to benefit ur argument then zeref is below Irene because he has to show feats that he can beat a dragon. See ur assuming that Zeref is on near acno tier but U have better nothing to back that up. Brandish was the only one that stated that and even then she didn't say they were equal if anything they are on the same tier. She stated that Irene has a possibility to beat august. u also assumed that Irene durability=a dragon durability because she can turn into a dragon. If want to assume that I can also august can copy DS magic. Also some1 like silver was able to freeze AF august who is leap and bounds silver should able to damage irene.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 11, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 11, 2017 ---

If silver can put damage on a dragon then some1 like gray can do the same too

Irene is a dragon so she does have dragon like stuffs. I dont think there is any rocket science here.
In a simple words. If a person is a magician then i am gonna assume he can do magic.

Yes i cannot defend my claim of zeref being that strong because he hasnt shown nothing. But his curse will probably work fine on any dragon.


Why would she call herself the strongest springgan. She has shown to believe she deosnt think august is above her. Isnt that enough. She doesnt give much shit about springgan any way

Brandish has said.that august is not the strongest. He shares that title.

No he cannot. Dragon has to give magic to human. They just cant copy it or learn it.

Silver froze the spirit of atlas flame. Just a fire. Not the dragon.
I do think august can hurt her. But her immunity and high stats makes her win.
Basically august is fighting someone who is his equal but is immune to his magic. Technically he should be alsi immune to irene magic (though he has never shown to counter such a high level opponent) but irene is a dragon. And august is a human.
So its basically hax human vs a dragon.
I give the win to the dragon.

 

[inactive lurker account]

This should be my first post, although I've lurked for quite a bit.

Now that this series is approaching is end and much of my excitement for it has been lost due to the lopsided handling of the war with the empire, I am nonetheless still attached to certain discussions and threads revolving around powers and the other metaphysical presuppositions of the setting, not to mention the assumptions and interpretations made by fans on these matters. With that said, I'm about to make a long post on this particular topic, with the expectation that a few remarks will perhaps help clarify matters and situate the disagreements.

I think a more nuanced way to talk about this hypothetical matchup between August and Irene, and pretty much all other versus scenarios across series in general, would be to specify the conditions and prerequisites each participant needs in order to 'defeat' the other participant in some way, and then compare which character has more requirements to secure. I must say that I REALLY DISLIKE how Mashima considerably inflated August's reputation and lore among the Spriggan 12 but also significantly deflated his performance and impact, especially when contrasted to what Irene has offered on-panel. It's almost as if the magic king was used as bait for those wishing to see a 'master of all magic' in action, or perhaps he wanted to subvert our expectations of a wise old powerful wizard only give that template the shorter end of the stick while paying more attention to a more fanservice-laden character. Also making things difficult is how August and Irene are placed in around the same 'tier', but it's not made sufficiently explicit which one is superior to the other in terms of magic mastery, if not in terms of physical attributes or raw magic power. Note that this doesn't yet touch upon the matter of plot powers and armor befitting Zeref and Mavis' son with power that is neither light nor dark, vis-a-vis the corresponding plot perks and privileges of being Erza's mother and the originator of Dragon Slaying Magic.

Now all that is just my roundabout way of saying: (A) flavor texts and character statements portray August in a better light; (B) Irene gets more spotlight and she's a special dragon; (C) but at the end of the day we lack adequate and robust and credible information on both side characters, especially on August, to definitively say without a shadow of doubt (1) which one is stronger and (2) who would win in a battle. Given this predicament, with both characters dead and with Mashima not clearing things up, we are left to discern whether to underrate or overrate either the magic king or the dragon queen. The crucial question I wish to ask everyone in this thread is: why under/over-estimate Irene or August? The next paragraphs on certain basic issues will hopefully help us address this matter.

First, we have to consider that Fairy Tail is not a systematic treatise with all required premises rendered explicit, and so we have to be careful with how we treat in-universe claims with varying credibility about certain items. I get this impression that certain older statements deemed reliable and authoritative are almost absolutized and then used to invalidate certain later claims. Case in point is in the subsidiary dispute about whether or not August who is said to be able to copy all caster magic can copy Dragon Slayer Magic, given that acquisition of Dragon Slayer Magic is said to require either a dragon's enchantment or a lacrima. I can think of at least 4 possible interpretations that assume coherence and consistency: (1) there are certain sorts of caster magic that not even August can copy due to their inherent qualities; (2) August can copy all caster magic, and so the requirements for acquiring Dragon Slayer Magic hold in general but not absolutely; (3) August can copy all caster magic, but Dragon Slayer Magic does not neatly fit into the category to begin with; (4) neither August's ability with respect to caster magic nor the requirements for acquiring Dragon Slayer Magic are to be taken absolutely, and so we don't know whether he can copy the magic. We are not shown August using magic to harm a dragon though it seems that he was the one who cancelled God Serena's fourth elemental Dragon Slayer attack against the Gods of Ishgar, and we have seen that he does not name his attacks, so we are left hanging on this matter. Another case where this problem arises is when we ask whether or not August can survive or magically shield himself from a dragon's physical attacks. It seems to me that the overarching issue is whether to treat the magic king as an exceptional mage much like his dad such that certain ordinary claims do not apply in the same way to him, or whether to treat him as an ordinary human with just some special cheating magic at his disposal.

Second, we have to take note of certain argumentative distinctions. For instance, to say that A has not shown to do B by itself DOES NOT IMPLY that A cannot do B, although it is understandable from our perspective that we have to see A do B as an indicator that A can do B. This consideration applies to whatever ability we ascribe to either August or Irene. Also, it is one thing to say that X's in general or on average are greater than Y's, and another thing altogether to say that there is no member of Y that is greater or on par with some member of X, although again I get it that we have to be convinced that some member of Y is so cut above the rest to be able to be comparable to some member of X. Replace X with 'dragon' and Y with 'human', and one gets the idea of what I'm trying to say. Moreover, to say that M and N are 'on par' or 'are both the strongest' is distinct from saying that M and N are exactly equal in all respects. With this in mind I now turn to what Brandish has to say about the 'strongest male' and 'strongest female' among the Spriggan 12. It seems what is denied by a single observer with imperfect information is the claim that one is clearly superior to the other and thus is the sole holder of the title of the strongest, without prejudice as to whether or not one is truly superior to the other regardless of clarity. As for the other claim that only Irene is able to stand a chance against August, one can interpret this in different ways: (1) Irene is superior, so of course it's a given that she stands a chance, and it's not even stated that August stands a chance against Irene anyway; (2) August and Irene are on par, even though one is superior in some aspects but is inferior in others, and so Irene stands a chance because it's not clear who would win between the two; (3) August is superior, but Irene is close enough that she at least has a fighting chance unlike the others who would be defeated with ease; (4) Brandish and the rest of us are unable to tell which one is superior, because both are so far above her while we are reliant on her testimony, and so it is safe for her and us to say that Irene stands a chance. But note that they are all question-begging in the sense that they already assume a position in dispute and then only retroactively shed light on what was stated, and it's not that we can use such a statement as strong evidence to begin with.

Finally, we have to think about whether or not August and Irene instantiate their respective stated abilities to their utmost, almost logical extent, or in other words, whether August can truly copy all caster magic or whether Irene can truly enchant every item despite their underwhelming battles against members of Fairy Tail. Once again, there are varying interpretations, and I suppose this is where external considerations such as PIS/CIS and NLF come in: (1) they really have those abilities maxed out, and there really just had to be awkward convenient circumstances to facilitate their defeat; (2) they don't have those abilities maxed out, and there are hidden constraints and loopholes to their use; (3) one has optimal abilities but the other doesn't, because it simply makes more sense for that one to have it rather than be secretly hampered, while that other has not shown optimal use of said abilities; (4) we simply don't know, and we no longer have a chance to see, because both are dead, unless Mashima clears this up via an interview or a special spinoff or flashback. Questions about August actually copying rather than simply being able to copy some spell, and then retaining said spell rather than just using them temporarily, involve this issue.

Before I end, let me be clear that as much as I would prefer August to win this hypothetical encounter, I can also concede that such a scenario is far from inevitable or obvious, depending on one's assumptions and interpretations of what's available to us. Maybe in a future post, if I ever decide to re-emerge from lurking, I can follow my own advice and enumerate the conditions Irene needs to fulfill to defeat August, and vice-versa. For now perhaps I can only request the other members reading this thread to indicate their premises and elaborate on them...

 

[Seven777]

No just stop
August lied about his abilities. He does not know all magic. He only copies them

Irene believed that no human can stop it. Which basically means no human that she came across could. Simple

No he does not know any ds magic. Because no dragon gave it to him.

If we give benefit of doubt to august and have him have nienhart magic. Than give benefit of doubt to irene too. And she stare them away like erza did.

Maybe he could beat her if he had ds. But its basically
Natsu (August) vs df natsu (dragon irene). Its gonna b very hard to believe.
Basically a new dragon slayer beating and old experienced dragon slayer.

And i like how you twist things around
Like you believe august can indeed copy and have nienhart magic. And yet at the same time give zero shit about irene dues sema claim.
Also like how august at minimum is at irene level even though both mira and mavis saw human irene and red form august.
And brandish might not ever have even seen irene dragon form.

Haha, you stop. The fact that he copies magic doesnt mean he hasnt learned all magic though copying them. Simple.

August does know DS magic, was clearly implied in the manga. Copying DS magic is no different from copying Reflector or Crash, he doesnt need a dragon to give it to him, just like Neinhart didnt need a dragon to give him anything when he recreated God Serena and his DS magic.

Except August is on par or stronger than Eileen, not human Eileen.

I like how i twist things too, been meaning to flip that Dues Sema nonsense.
August copying Neinharts magic is no different from Jet and Droy not being able to destroy Deus Sema, neither were explicitly stated or shown but both are obviously fact.
Inversely August not being able to destroy Deus Sema despite Eileen's statement about humans is obviously false, and August knowing Universe One or Dragon Enslavement magic despite his statement about knowing magic is obviously the same. There's no difference.
So no, August doesnt know all magic, and no, Deus Sema isnt impossible to destroy by all humans. However yes, August does know most magic and yes, Deus Sema is impossible to destroy by most humans. Its all fair here.

Mavis saw Eileen and August as equals(still called August the strongest) based on MP, not abilities. She didnt know that August was completely immune to magic and she didnt know Eileen could turn into a dragon.
August has been hyped as the strongest mage in the spriggan 12 since the start of the arc, and was confirmed to be just that in his fight. So me calling Eileen his equal is me being generous.

 

[sharkai]

Haha, you stop. The fact that he copies magic doesnt mean he hasnt learned all magic though copying them. Simple.

August does know DS magic, was clearly implied in the manga. Copying DS magic is no different from copying Reflector or Crash, he doesnt need a dragon to give it to him, just like Neinhart didnt need a dragon to give him anything when he recreated God Serena and his DS magic.

Except August is on par or stronger than Eileen, not human Eileen.

I like how i twist things too, been meaning to flip that Dues Sema nonsense.
August copying Neinharts magic is no different from Jet and Droy not being able to destroy Deus Sema, neither were explicitly stated or shown but both are obviously fact.
Inversely August not being able to destroy Deus Sema despite Eileen's statement about humans is obviously false, and August knowing Universe One or Dragon Enslavement magic despite his statement about knowing magic is obviously the same. There's no difference.
So no, August doesnt know all magic, and no, Deus Sema isnt impossible to destroy by all humans. However yes, August does know most magic and yes, Deus Sema is impossible to destroy by most humans. Its all fair here.

Mavis saw Eileen and August as equals(still called August the strongest) based on MP, not abilities. She didnt know that August was completely immune to magic and she didnt know Eileen could turn into a dragon.
August has been hyped as the strongest mage in the spriggan 12 since the start of the manga, and was confirmed to be just that in his fight. So me calling Eileen his equal is me being generous.

Making up stuffs again
Mavis didnt say august had more mp than human irene. She said so he is the strongest. And than shat herself when.irene walked in.

And as far who who is august is on par with that would be human irene. Because those were the people who were being compared. Mira looked at red form augist and human irene. Same with mavis. And brandish probably never seen dragon irene.
Lol you are never generous. You only side with one character who you already decided before any feats are shown.
August was the strongest before irene arrived.
And yes august august is the strongest mage. Because irene is not a mage



You think most mages who.matter can stop deus sema. And you also.think all magic can be copied by august. Like laxus can stop deus sem . So can wahl. But august can copy them too. Thats your belief isnt it.
That is your twisting things
And trying to say august at minimum is as strong irene. Even though it should be the otherway around because human irene was compared to red form august.

Ds magic is just a normal magic now. Apparently it can be copied as easily as any magic. Interesting i wonder why dragon always teach this magic. And enchanting ds in is all bs now.

He wasnt confirmed to be the strongest in the fight. His performance was slightly better than human irene.

 

[Seven777]

Making up stuffs again
Mavis didnt say august had more mp than human irene. She said so he is the strongest. And than shat herself when.irene walked in.

And as far who who is august is on par with that would be human irene. Because those were the people who were being compared. Mira looked at red form augist and human irene. Same with mavis. And brandish probably never seen dragon irene.
Lol you are never generous. You only side with one character who you already decided before any feats are shown.
August was the strongest before irene arrived.
And yes august august is the strongest mage. Because irene is not a mage



You think most mages who.matter can stop deus sema. And you also.think all magic can be copied by august. Like laxus can stop deus sem . So can wahl. But august can copy them too. Thats your belief isnt it.
That is your twisting things
And trying to say august at minimum is as strong irene. Even though it should be the otherway around because human irene was compared to red form august.

Ds magic is just a normal magic now. Apparently it can be copied as easily as any magic. Interesting i wonder why dragon always teach this magic. And enchanting ds in is all bs now.

He wasnt confirmed to be the strongest in the fight. His performance was slightly better than human irene.

I didnt say Mavis said August had more MP than Eileen.

No, he would be on par with EIleen, not human Eileen. The fact that Mira and Mavis both werent fully aware of the extent of their powers makes no difference.
I am always generous when i argue with you my friend, i like to make small concessions just so you dont pick apart everything i say, makes it easier on me.
Eileen is a mage, so August is stronger than her. Confirmed.

I think the strongest mages can destroy Deus Sema, just like i also think the most ridiculous magics arent known to August. So yeah, the Gildarts' and Laxus' are probably destroying Deus Sema, just like the Universe One's and the Dragon Enslavement magics probably arent known to August.

Dragons teach the magic because no one(or at least very few people) was able to copy magic like August can, he is probably the only mage of his kind, or at least thats how it seemed. So yes, August can copy DS magic the same way he copies any other. We already know he has Natsu's.

People comparing human Eileen to Red August doesnt make a difference, because they are not comparing their actual combat abilities, just the amount of MP they have. From what we've seen, Eileen doesnt gain any MP from transforming and August doesnt gain any MP from going Red.
August's statement in the fight confirmed he is the strongest mage in the spriggan 12. The editorial comments consistently calling him the strongest member of the spriggan 12, all his hype and the fact that he is their general makes it clear. He is the strongest.

 

[Arjuna]

I didnt say Mavis said August had more MP than Eileen.

No, he would be on par with EIleen, not human Eileen. The fact that Mira and Mavis both werent fully aware of the extent of their powers makes no difference.
I am always generous when i argue with you my friend, i like to make small concessions just so you dont pick apart everything i say, makes it easier on me.
Eileen is a mage, so August is stronger than her. Confirmed.

I think the strongest mages can destroy Deus Sema, just like i also think the most ridiculous magics arent known to August. So yeah, the Gildarts' and Laxus' are probably destroying Deus Sema, just like the Universe One's and the Dragon Enslavement magics probably arent known to August.

Dragons teach the magic because no one(or at least very few people) was able to copy magic like August can, he is probably the only mage of his kind, or at least thats how it seemed. So yes, August can copy DS magic the same way he copies any other. We already know he has Natsu's.

People comparing human Eileen to Red August doesnt make a difference, because they are not comparing their actual combat abilities, just the amount of MP they have. From what we've seen, Eileen doesnt gain any MP from transforming and August doesnt gain any MP from going Red.
August's statement in the fight confirmed he is the strongest mage in the spriggan 12. The editorial comments consistently calling him the strongest member of the spriggan 12, all his hype and the fact that he is their general makes it clear. He is the strongest.

Sorry i agree with your other points but August hasn't shown any DS Magic.If you are talking about Melt, Natsu didn't use any spell in front of August to copy and Natsu never had any similar kind of spell like Melt.
But i believe he will be able to copy DS Magic if he sees it.

 

[sharkai]

I didnt say Mavis said August had more MP than Eileen.

No, he would be on par with EIleen, not human Eileen. The fact that Mira and Mavis both werent fully aware of the extent of their powers makes no difference.
I am always generous when i argue with you my friend, i like to make small concessions just so you dont pick apart everything i say, makes it easier on me.
Eileen is a mage, so August is stronger than her. Confirmed.

I think the strongest mages can destroy Deus Sema, just like i also think the most ridiculous magics arent known to August. So yeah, the Gildarts' and Laxus' are probably destroying Deus Sema, just like the Universe One's and the Dragon Enslavement magics probably arent known to August.

Dragons teach the magic because no one(or at least very few people) was able to copy magic like August can, he is probably the only mage of his kind, or at least thats how it seemed. So yes, August can copy DS magic the same way he copies any other. We already know he has Natsu's.

People comparing human Eileen to Red August doesnt make a difference, because they are not comparing their actual combat abilities, just the amount of MP they have. From what we've seen, Eileen doesnt gain any MP from transforming and August doesnt gain any MP from going Red.
August's statement in the fight confirmed he is the strongest mage in the spriggan 12. The editorial comments consistently calling him the strongest member of the spriggan 12, all his hype and the fact that he is their general makes it clear. He is the strongest.

Why would he be on par with irene. Not human irene? When even brandish hasnt even seen dragon irene. And thought august is master of all magic.
Also i remember when ever people went dragon force they seems to have more power. Wasnt jellal shocked by sting and rouge going df. Wasnt there a change in felt power then.

Irene is not a mage. She is a dragon.

Then strongest magic cannot be copied and negated by August like all human irene magic. Or any magic of gildarts and laxus (assuming he is the strongest even though he only defeated one mid tier springgan like pretty much all main). If gildart can stop deus sema then august cant copy gildarts magic. That is fair right? Same with laxus ok?

You mean to tell me august is unique even though that has never been stated. Even rufus can memorize magic. I find this claim very hard to believe. Interestingly enough copy magic can indeed b taught

He doesnt have natsu ds magic. Melt wasnt even fire. It was heat based. That is why natsu didnt eat it. He only negated it

And ajeel statemnet confirmed that he can solo laxus plus gildarts plus jellal olus natsu.
Him calling himself the strongest doesnt mean much.
Brandish calling him one of the strongest means alot more.

Editorials notes. Seriously

Remember the old days
When we knew the dragon was the strongest form of ds. But apparently ever since erza took out one. Dragon has become the weakest form of dragon slayer magic.

Lets start again
I will give their abilities and you tell me what you think or who would win
1) august can copy all magic. But cannot retain them. Meaning he has access to only his opponent magic. Vs irene
2) same as above but he cant copy irene magic because he has never shown to copy at irene tier
The above two are base on what august showed. Since august couldn't refract cana cards or gildart metal arm something midnight can do with ease. And nfl because he has never faced a mage of irene level.
3) he can copy and retain all magic except ds magic. But can copy nienhart magic (even though he doesnt even have brandish magic) since i am giving this benefit of doubt to august. I will give one to irene. Historia are ineffective aginst her. Like nienhart said that his historia wont work on erza.
4) august can even retain ds magic. Who is stronger. The final stage of ds the dragon. Or a base dragon slayer a human.
And finally all you can eat benefit of doubts
5) august can retain all magic except dragon irene level. And irene cannot turn back to human.

 

[Seven777]

Sorry i agree with your other points but August hasn't shown any DS Magic.If you are talking about Melt, Natsu didn't use any spell in front of August to copy and Natsu never had any similar kind of spell like Melt.
But i believe he will be able to copy DS Magic if he sees it.

Imo seeing the spell isnt a prerequisite for copying it, only coming into contact with the mage.

Spoiler

You can clearly see a panel of Melt placed alongside other panels, all of which were examples of August copying magic. He had to have copied Melt from someone and if not Natsu then who? And the fact that Natsu was able to negate it pretty much confirms Melt as DS magic imo.

Why would he be on par with irene. Not human irene? When even brandish hasnt even seen dragon irene. And thought august is master of all magic.
Also i remember when ever people went dragon force they seems to have more power. Wasnt jellal shocked by sting and rouge going df. Wasnt there a change in felt power then.

Irene is not a mage. She is a dragon.

Then strongest magic cannot be copied and negated by August like all human irene magic. Or any magic of gildarts and laxus (assuming he is the strongest even though he only defeated one mid tier springgan like pretty much all main). If gildart can stop deus sema then august cant copy gildarts magic. That is fair right? Same with laxus ok?

You mean to tell me august is unique even though that has never been stated. Even rufus can memorize magic. I find this claim very hard to believe. Interestingly enough copy magic can indeed b taught

He doesnt have natsu ds magic. Melt wasnt even fire. It was heat based. That is why natsu didnt eat it. He only negated it

And ajeel statemnet confirmed that he can solo laxus plus gildarts plus jellal olus natsu.
Him calling himself the strongest doesnt mean much.
Brandish calling him one of the strongest means alot more.

Editorials notes. Seriously

Remember the old days
When we knew the dragon was the strongest form of ds. But apparently ever since erza took out one. Dragon has become the weakest form of dragon slayer magic.

Lets start again
I will give their abilities and you tell me what you think or who would win
1) august can copy all magic. But cannot retain them. Meaning he has access to only his opponent magic. Vs irene
2) same as above but he cant copy irene magic because he has never shown to copy at irene tier
The above two are base on what august showed. Since august couldn't refract cana cards or gildart metal arm something midnight can do with ease. And nfl because he has never faced a mage of irene level.
3) he can copy and retain all magic except ds magic. But can copy nienhart magic (even though he doesnt even have brandish magic) since i am giving this benefit of doubt to august. I will give one to irene. Historia are ineffective aginst her. Like nienhart said that his historia wont work on erza.
4) august can even retain ds magic. Who is stronger. The final stage of ds the dragon. Or a base dragon slayer a human.
And finally all you can eat benefit of doubts
5) august can retain all magic except dragon irene level. And irene cannot turn back to human.

Brandish also didnt know August is immune to all magic, doesnt matter either way, it was Mashima who chose to hype them as equals.
Dragonizing isnt Dragon Force, and Erza didnt note any difference in MP.
Eileen being a dragon doesnt mean she isnt a mage, the two are not mutually exclusive. She casts spells so she is a mage and thus inferior to August.
Nope, cause we've seen August copy Gildart's magic.
You find it hard to believe August is unique among mages lol? I dont even know how to respond to that... It was implied in his flashbacks, thats all
The fact that Melt was shown alongside every other instance of August copying magic clearly implies that Melt came from Natsu. Its pretty much canon.
Azir was boasting, August was not. August comment can be taken as fact.
Yep, editorial notes.
Its not because Erza took her out, its because DS magic took her out. Normal DS arent weak to DS magic, transformed dragons like Eileen are.

1) Depends on how the fight plays out. If Eileen at some point in the fight uses a roar or any DS magic, August wins. If Eileen for whatever reason sticks only to physical attacks until she eventually takes August down, then she wins.
2) Eileen. Does August even have magic in this scenario? Or is he just whacking her foot with his staff?
3) Tie.
4) August
5) August

 

[Arjuna]

Imo seeing the spell isnt a prerequisite for copying it, only coming into contact with the mage.

Spoiler

You can clearly see a panel of Melt placed alongside other panels, all of which were examples of August copying magic. He had to have copied Melt from someone and if not Natsu then who? And the fact that Natsu was able to negate it pretty much confirms Melt as DS magic imo.

Brandish also didnt know August is immune to all magic, doesnt matter either way, it was Mashima who chose to hype them as equals.
Dragonizing isnt Dragon Force, and Erza didnt note any difference in MP.
Eileen being a dragon doesnt mean she isnt a mage, the two are not mutually exclusive. She casts spells so she is a mage and thus inferior to August.
Nope, cause we've seen August copy Gildart's magic.
You find it hard to believe August is unique among mages lol? I dont even know how to respond to that... It was implied in his flashbacks, thats all
The fact that Melt was shown alongside every other instance of August copying magic clearly implies that Melt came from Natsu. Its pretty much canon.
Azir was boasting, August was not. August comment can be taken as fact.
Yep, editorial notes.
Its not because Erza took her out, its because DS magic took her out. Normal DS arent weak to DS magic, transformed dragons like Eileen are.

1) Depends on how the fight plays out. If Eileen at some point in the fight uses a roar or any DS magic, August wins. If Eileen for whatever reason sticks only to physical attacks until she eventually takes August down, then she wins.
2) Eileen. Does August even have magic in this scenario? Or is he just whacking her foot with his staff?
3) Tie.
4) August
5) August

Remember what Makarov said?August knows more magic than Zeref.So it means he fought and met many mages.So it is not impossible that he learnt this magic from any mage he had met in his previous life.

The reasons why i feel Melt isn't DS Magic because:-

i)Natsu never used any spell similar to Heat pillar.He could negate it and and even then couldn't fully do so.If it was DS Magic he could have eaten it and would not have faced any difficulty even if it was super powerful.

ii)I feel August needs to see a magic to copy.When Gildarts used Crash Magic he said,"You possess an interesting magic".If he could only copy a magic by seeing a mage himself/herself,he would not have commented like this after actually seeing the magic.

 

[Star Frost]

Imo seeing the spell isnt a prerequisite for copying it, only coming into contact with the mage.

Spoiler

You can clearly see a panel of Melt placed alongside other panels, all of which were examples of August copying magic. He had to have copied Melt from someone and if not Natsu then who? And the fact that Natsu was able to negate it pretty much confirms Melt as DS magic imo.

If Melt isn't Natsu's then it means that he copied that from some other Mage he had encountered like that Sleep Magic (or whatever) he done used on Brandish which nobody during his encounter with him, Lucy, and co. can do. Plus Natsu being able to negate it (which fully wasn't btw) doesn't mean it is DS magic cause Natsu has shown to negate and counter many kinds of heat based attacks and they weren't DS Magic.

 

[sharkai]

Imo seeing the spell isnt a prerequisite for copying it, only coming into contact with the mage.

Spoiler

You can clearly see a panel of Melt placed alongside other panels, all of which were examples of August copying magic. He had to have copied Melt from someone and if not Natsu then who? And the fact that Natsu was able to negate it pretty much confirms Melt as DS magic imo.

Brandish also didnt know August is immune to all magic, doesnt matter either way, it was Mashima who chose to hype them as equals.
Dragonizing isnt Dragon Force, and Erza didnt note any difference in MP.
Eileen being a dragon doesnt mean she isnt a mage, the two are not mutually exclusive. She casts spells so she is a mage and thus inferior to August.
Nope, cause we've seen August copy Gildart's magic.
You find it hard to believe August is unique among mages lol? I dont even know how to respond to that... It was implied in his flashbacks, thats all
The fact that Melt was shown alongside every other instance of August copying magic clearly implies that Melt came from Natsu. Its pretty much canon.
Azir was boasting, August was not. August comment can be taken as fact.
Yep, editorial notes.
Its not because Erza took her out, its because DS magic took her out. Normal DS arent weak to DS magic, transformed dragons like Eileen are.

1) Depends on how the fight plays out. If Eileen at some point in the fight uses a roar or any DS magic, August wins. If Eileen for whatever reason sticks only to physical attacks until she eventually takes August down, then she wins.
2) Eileen. Does August even have magic in this scenario? Or is he just whacking her foot with his staff?
3) Tie.
4) August
5) August

And igneel can do magic too. Is he also a mage?
Then why didnt natsu eat the fire ds?
He is uniquness has nothing to do with his copy ability.

Dragonizing isnt dragon force. Then what is.
Are you seriously saying natus df above future possible natsu dragon form?
Or dragon aconologia weaker than human aconologia.
And erza had no time to note mp. She only noted a dragon and then she was broken.

And we havent seen gildart over power desus sema.
If you starting the argument that
August trumps gildarts magic. And gildart trumps irene magic. Then you starting already with the premise that irene is alot weaker than august. Of course i am not going to accept that.

Its extremely unfair that august cant only copy some obscure magic or magic which even even effects aconologia meanwhile someone far below irene can over come her dues sema. If you give benefit of doubt to only one character like this even
Lucy might take out laxus like this.

How does august tie in 3
So basically you belive as long as august can do any magic what so ever he is equal to irene.
Otherwise he straight out beat irene
Basically you have as much hype as possible given to august. And zero to irene.

Figures.



Mine would have been
1) irene. While august might get irene ds. Irene can eat her own ds. Its a stompfest here.
2) irene
3) since he cant copy ds. His only option to harm irene is historia. Which are ineffective against irene (as stated in the point). This also a stomp fest
4) this would normally go to irene as well. Unless you think human irene can defeat dragon irene. Or human aconologia can defeat dragon aconologia. (You basically believe there is no increase in power. Only abnormal high vulnerability to ds magic.)
5) same as 4.

He has only chances of beating irene in 4 or 5. Depending on human aconologia beating dragon aconologia. All other irene beat him in extreme low diff and those are the one which are based on feats shown in the manga. Unless you believe that irene is extremely unique dragon who wont be able to eat or negate her own ds.

What you basically doing
Hype for august
1) He can copy and retain magic. (Not 100% confirm as shown by him not refracting cana cards like a sleeping midnight can do but one doubtful example of him keeping magic. Possible meteor
2) he can copy magic which no human can learn themselve like ds (never shown and 90% chances of being purely wrong)
3) he can retain ds. Basically he is a ds. Who doesnt have dragon or dragon lacrima (pretty much false. As it was never shown)
4) nfl does not apply to august. He is immune to irene magic and can copy her magic too. Even though he has never copied any springgan tier magic. Did he even use crash? He was crashed himself. But dont remember crashing cana or gildart. And he has never shown to be immune to irene tier magic.

Dehype for irene
1) far weaker mages can over power her top tier move (even though over flowing pof was involved)
2) a move that broke nearly all erza bones is completely irrelevant (something that would even wreck august in one hit) also ignore nienhart remembering irene when erza showed some weird power making his historia useless. Thus historia work fine on irene. But not on erza
3) nfl applies to irene. She cant turn people far below her into rats. Because she has never done that to any mage of springgan tier.
3) dragon irene has so weak durability that she is practically one shottable by her human self(even though it was plot force that did that)
4) since dragon is infact not the final stage of ds anymore. She has no increase in her speed or hitting force and power. (Pretty much fcks up most of fairy tail series)

Dont you agree with the points i stated above (hype and dehype). That is what you believe, right?



Human irene has one of the best durability shown in the manga. August might have more. Or they might be around each other. There is absolutely no reason to believe that her dragon form is any less durable compared to other dragons.
Human irene speed is already equal to red form august speed
Would red form august incased in magic be able to keep up with dragon speed? He did try to blitz cana in that way. But i remember you think if someone manages to put up a block. Its not a blitz. So technically august didnt even blitz cana in that form.
And why does irene gain ability to do master enchant in dragon from. Something she cant do in human. What is actually different between these two forms other that physical form. Does her magic change. Does she gain.power or something ?

 

[Seven777]

Remember what Makarov said?August knows more magic than Zeref.So it means he fought and met many mages.So it is not impossible that he learnt this magic from any mage he had met in his previous life.

The reasons why i feel Melt isn't DS Magic because:-

i)Natsu never used any spell similar to Heat pillar.He could negate it and and even then couldn't fully do so.If it was DS Magic he could have eaten it and would not have faced any difficulty even if it was super powerful.

ii)I feel August needs to see a magic to copy.When Gildarts used Crash Magic he said,"You possess an interesting magic".If he could only copy a magic by seeing a mage himself/herself,he would not have commented like this after actually seeing the magic.

Fair points, however i still maintain that Melt was indeed DS magic.
For you points:
i) Natsu has never shown any spells that look like Melt its true. However to me "Melt" isnt a specific technique like say FD Iron Fist, he was just saying "Melt" to sound cool, like how bad guys sometimes say "die" or "begone" as they're about to unleash an attack.
Imo Melt is closer in nature to the Lightning Nuke Laxus used on Azir. The lightning itself is DS Lightning, however the nuke wasnt actually a DS technique like LD Jaw or whatever, just a casual blast of lightning he unleashed.
So for August, "Melt" itself wasnt one of Natsu's DS techniques, but it was comprised of Natsu's DS Fire.
As for Natsu not negating it entirely, that would be a massive amount of fire to eat, maybe too massive. Besides, Natsu was still able to negate it to the extent that he protected Lucy, Happy and Mest long enough for Universe One to get em out of there.

ii) But that wasnt even the first time Gildarts used Crash, August saw him bust the church a chapter before Gildarts cubed him, yet he didnt say anything either.
All i can say is that maybe until that statement August was too busy defending against Gildart's attacks to let him know that he uses interesting magic. Or perhaps he just had yet to attempt to copy Gildart's magic.


For me its like this.
I agree that August almost certainly knows a crap ton of magic, him knowing a spell like Melt from a previous Fire Mage wouldnt be surprising in the least. However what gets me is the fact that Melt was displayed in Augusts flashback with Gildarts, alongside other spells, all if which were copied and used against the wizard's he was facing, Relflector from Midnight, Slow from Racer, Sound from Cobra and Crash from Gildarts.
Dont you think its odd that in a flashback made up of panel's exclusively showcasing August copying magic and using it against it wielder, also displayed the Heat Based spell he used on Natsu?

 

[Arjuna]

Fair points, however i still maintain that Melt was indeed DS magic.
For you points:
i) Natsu has never shown any spells that look like Melt its true. However to me "Melt" isnt a specific technique like say FD Iron Fist, he was just saying "Melt" to sound cool, like how bad guys sometimes say "die" or "begone" as they're about to unleash an attack.
Imo Melt is closer in nature to the Lightning Nuke Laxus used on Azir. The lightning itself is DS Lightning, however the nuke wasnt actually a DS technique like LD Jaw or whatever, just a casual blast of lightning he unleashed.
So for August, "Melt" itself wasnt one of Natsu's DS techniques, but it was comprised of Natsu's DS Fire.
As for Natsu not negating it entirely, that would be a massive amount of fire to eat, maybe too massive. Besides, Natsu was still able to negate it to the extent that he protected Lucy, Happy and Mest long enough for Universe One to get em out of there.

ii) But that wasnt even the first time Gildarts used Crash, August saw him bust the church a chapter before Gildarts cubed him, yet he didnt say anything either.
All i can say is that maybe until that statement August was too busy defending against Gildart's attacks to let him know that he uses interesting magic. Or perhaps he just had yet to attempt to copy Gildart's magic.

For me its like this. I agree that August almost certainly knows a crap ton of magic, him knowing a spell like Melt from a previous Fire Mage wouldnt be surprising in the least. However what gets me is the fact that Melt was displayed in Augusts flashback with Gildarts, alongside other spells, all if which were copied and used against the wizard's he was facing, Relflector from Midnight, Slow from Racer, Sound from Cobra and Crash from Gildarts.
Dont you think its odd that in a flashback made up of panel's exclusively showcasing August copying magic and using it against it wielder, also displayed the Heat Based spell he used on Natsu?

Good points i agree especially the reason it was showed in the flashback.

But Natsu if you remember didn't have have any pillar style attack and the Melt itself was shaped like a pillar,unless August used a pillar of DS Magc,that is possible.The main problem is August is an intelligent mage so he will use Fire DS Magic on a Fire DS himself.

And as @Star Frost mentioned August used Sleep Magic on Brandish without copying so it is also possible he learned Melt from any Fire Mage.

Edit i remembered August had seen Purgatory Dragon Slaying Magic from God Serena,maybe he copied it from him.

 

[Seven777]

Good points i agree especially the reason it was showed in the flashback.

But Natsu if you remember didn't have have any pillar style attack and the Melt itself was shaped like a pillar,unless August used a pillar of DS Magc,that is possible.The main problem is August is an intelligent mage so he will use Fire DS Magic on a Fire DS himself.

And as @Star Frost mentioned August used Sleep Magic on Brandish without copying so it is also possible he learned Melt from any Fire Mage.

Edit i remembered August had seen Purgatory Dragon Slaying Magic from God Serena,maybe he copied it from him.

True, though Natsu wasnt the only guy August was trying to kill. Mest wouldve been the main target.

I do think August can use magic without copying anything like with what August did to Brandish, in fact we know he can(Ars Magia or whatever the suicide was called). However August knocking out Brandish wasnt displayed alongside Crash, Relfector and all the other panels that were given in the flashback in the August vs Gildarts fight, Melt on the other hand was.

I dunno man, i can see the inconsistencies you've been pointing out and youve made some good points, but imo Mashima throwing in Melt with all those other instances of August copying magic and using it against the wielder was pretty clear implication that the spell came from Natsu. I mean why would the panel of Melt be the only panel that wasnt an example of August copying magic and using against the owner?

 

[inactive lurker account]

Since I still have a bit of time before attending to other stuff offline, I'll try to map out various scenarios and conditions in this match, given that what is available to us is rather limited. Pardon the pedantry in my presentation, and I hope to be able to handle this topic in a fair and comprehensive manner.

Before proceeding, I would like to note as a sort of summary that many of the arguments that I've seen so far hinge on competing exception-claims, whether explicitly stated or implicitly supposed. On the one hand there's the claim that the magic that August uses is really really special, or better yet, that August himself is really really special among humans. On the other hand, there's the claim that dragons and their magic are really really special, or better yet, that Irene herself is really really special among dragon slayers turned dragons. Again, the details available to us can be interpreted either way, and those two claims aren't really mutually exclusive. Yet there remains the matter of which claim is given more emphasis and credence to the point of trumping the other claim. Now, I also note that besides metaphysical and logical arguments given the structure of the world partially painted in Fairy Tail, there are certain 'narrative' arguments concerning plot relevance and symbolic effects and visual presentation, things such as rankings and character traits and even the very order of on-panel debuts, that are used to favor one claim over another. But more importantly, we have to admit that, notwithstanding all these nuances, certain people side with certain characters more than others, and these valuations and prejudices and sentiments tend to sway which interpretation is adopted. Now, me liking August's character more than Irene's and my desire to believe that he has maximally mastered his magic regardless of whether or not Irene has maximally mastered her magic does not preclude me from taking a step back to critically examine the situation.

I carefully distinguish between (1) the question about which of the two is superior in which aspect, and (2) the question about who would win in an encounter. I define 'superior' in terms of power, whether quantitative or qualitative. Thus I consider X to be superior to Y in aspect Z if and only if the power of X is greater than the power of Y with respect to aspect Z. By extension, I consider X to be overall superior to Y if and only if, given a certain number of relevant aspects weighted according to impact, there are more and heavier aspects where X is superior to Y. Also, I define 'win' minimally, as something akin to a checkmate in chess, where the king piece is not captured/killed but merely cornered with no means of escape. I'm not sure how battlefield removal or sealing techniques of temporary duration apply given my stipulations, but I'll consider them to be weak 'wins' for that specific encounter, meaning that for example, Irene 'won' weakly against Acnologia via Universe One in a particular round, without necessarily meaning that she can kill him or that she is superior to him in any way. That being said, I'll move on to my main point.

Consider first the ideal scenario where August can copy and retain ALL caster magic as well as negate ALL caster magic within his vicinity and where Irene can enchant ANY item and spell as well as freely switch between human and dragon form, with magic power and overall health being the only internal constraints, and without external factors that might hamper either of them.

With regard to the first question, in this super-optimal setup I consider August to still be superior in terms of magical versatility, whereas Irene retains her superiority in terms of physical attributes, with certain details up for debate as they will be crucial points determining the answer to the second question.

In terms of magic, August should be able to counter caster spells used by Irene, while Irene should be able to disenchant August's spells. One crucial issue is whether enchantment is a sort of technique that can be classified as either caster or holder magic. If so, then August can copy and negate Irene's enchantments even the sage-infused ones unless Irene uses her staff or her gloves as the medium of enchantment, but if not, then Irene may very well be able to enchant August and perhaps to the extent of removing his very magic. Supposing that Irene attempts to tamper with August's very magic reserves, a crucial issue is whether August has a strong enough magical defense to resist magical attacks whether of a caster or a holder sort. If so, then August can repel Irene's attempt without having to resort to copying and negating, but if not, then Irene wins in a cheap yet brilliant maneuver, leaving August at her mercy.

A side issue is whether or not August can use copied enchantment to bypass the restrictions of his copying ability, or alternatively, if August has copied another sort of caster copying magic that can copy holder magic. If so, then he becomes practically immune to all magic save those attacks with magic power exceeding his own.

Now, if Irene shifts to dragon form and taps into sage magic, assuming that enchantment is classifiable as caster or holder magic, then August can still copy and negate caster enchantment although he's not likely to match the scale of Irene's enchantments unless he too copies the sage quality to even things out. In the event of Irene's master enchantments overpowering August's copied enchantments, a crucial issue is whether Irene and August can utilize other techniques while trying to sustain their respective enchantments. If so, then August can use other spells in tandem with copied enchantment and in turn, Irene can disenchant August's spells while simultaneously maintaining her primary enchantment against him. But if not, then Irene's enchantment continues to overpower August's enchantment unless he finds a way out. A possible loophole is if Irene while in dragon form nonetheless uses an item to perform master enchantment, thereby bypassing August's copy and negation abilities and deal directly with August's magical defense, assuming August has not found a loophole of his own.

In terms of physical attributes, while it goes beyond saying that a dragon normally outclasses a human, a crucial issue is whether August's physical defense and endurance can at least stand up to Irene's physical attacks in dragon form, assuming they both refrain from using magic or their supplementary magic attacks somehow cancel each other out. If so, then he can continue fighting despite the injuries, but if not, then Irene wins.

The analyses so far compare August's counters against Irene's attacks, but let me now flip the situation. Assuming August has already copied Dragon Slayer magic or has a special magic attack that can harm dragons, a crucial question is whether Irene can completely consume or disenchant the dragon-slaying attributes of some magical spell or item thrown at her. If so, then Irene remains unscathed, but if not, then she is harmed and August can win depending on the damage inflicted.

At any rate, either of them can weakly win if one gets a chance to temporarily seal or remove the other.

The tricky thing is in talking about non-ideal scenarios. Suffice it to say for now that in many cases, one has to assume that August is really really special, or that he has copied some advantageous magic, in order for him to be able to challenge and perhaps overpower dragons, barring the likes of Acnologia and Igneel. Without that crucial premise, Irene wins against normal humans of whatever magic ability even if she's just an average dragon. In addition, if August is deemed really really special, Irene in turn would have to be seen as really really special in order to stand up to him. The question is, given the limited details available to us because Mashima is rushing things and did not exert more effort to flesh out secondary antagonists, to what extent do we presume August to be special, and why?

Of course it is easy to say that those who want the magic king or the dragon queen to be really really special are either character fans or those who take certain statements by certain sources seriously, but what motivates those who deliberately downplay either rather than simply abstaining or strictly suspending judgment?

Remarks will be most appreciated.

 

[LaGOAT]

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 11, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 11, 2017 ---

Irene is a dragon so she does have dragon like stuffs. I dont think there is any rocket science here.
In a simple words. If a person is a magician then i am gonna assume he can do magic.

Yes i cannot defend my claim of zeref being that strong because he hasnt shown nothing. But his curse will probably work fine on any dragon.


Why would she call herself the strongest springgan. She has shown to believe she deosnt think august is above her. Isnt that enough. She doesnt give much shit about springgan any way

Brandish has said.that august is not the strongest. He shares that title.

No he cannot. Dragon has to give magic to human. They just cant copy it or learn it.

Silver froze the spirit of atlas flame. Just a fire. Not the dragon.
I do think august can hurt her. But her immunity and high stats makes her win.
Basically august is fighting someone who is his equal but is immune to his magic. Technically he should be alsi immune to irene magic (though he has never shown to counter such a high level opponent) but irene is a dragon. And august is a human.
So its basically hax human vs a dragon.
I give the win to the dragon.[/QUOTE

No just stop
August lied about his abilities. He does not know all magic. He only copies them

Irene believed that no human can stop it. Which basically means no human that she came across could. Simple

No he does not know any ds magic. Because no dragon gave it to him.

If we give benefit of doubt to august and have him have nienhart magic. Than give benefit of doubt to irene too. And she stare them away like erza did.

Maybe he could beat her if he had ds. But its basically
Natsu (August) vs df natsu (dragon irene). Its gonna b very hard to believe.
Basically a new dragon slayer beating and old experienced dragon slayer.

And i like how you twist things around
Like you believe august can indeed copy and have nienhart magic. And yet at the same time give zero shit about irene dues sema claim.
Also like how august at minimum is at irene level even though both mira and mavis saw human irene and red form august.
And brandish might not ever have even seen irene dragon form.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 11, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 11, 2017 ---

Irene is a dragon so she does have dragon like stuffs. I dont think there is any rocket science here.
In a simple words. If a person is a magician then i am gonna assume he can do magic.

Yes i cannot defend my claim of zeref being that strong because he hasnt shown nothing. But his curse will probably work fine on any dragon.


Why would she call herself the strongest springgan. She has shown to believe she deosnt think august is above her. Isnt that enough. She doesnt give much shit about springgan any way

Brandish has said.that august is not the strongest. He shares that title.

No he cannot. Dragon has to give magic to human. They just cant copy it or learn it.

Silver froze the spirit of atlas flame. Just a fire. Not the dragon.
I do think august can hurt her. But her immunity and high stats makes her win.
Basically august is fighting someone who is his equal but is immune to his magic. Technically he should be alsi immune to irene magic (though he has never shown to counter such a high level opponent) but irene is a dragon. And august is a human.
So its basically hax human vs a dragon.
I give the win to the dragon.

Just like it's not rocket science that august can copy people magic it means he can copy and retain it hence why makarov said he know more magic than zeref Obviously he copy magic and keep it. Sorry buddy by ur logic Irene>zeref until he shows it since dragons are highly immune to magic I don't care what u believe. U can't be bias with ur logic and then switch it up to benefit ur argument u have to stay consistent with it.why shouldn't she? if she believe she was the strongest she would have said it. If Irene she was stronger than august then she wouldn't be taken order from august the general of the 12 if anything she would be she at least on par with him. lol Irene was trying way hard than august who was simply toying with gildartz and Cana and also easily beat CS august was way more impressive than Irene. August is the strongest spriggan and was confirmed in the manga.