Discussion Baam's absolute limit

[VON]

If current Baam was to unleash his two thorns and theoretically capable of igniting both while wielding black march ignited too, what's the strongest character you think he could defeat?

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Current as in post Evankhell-training? I think it's implied he has been trained up to be able to take on Kallavan. Otherwise, what would have been the point? Unless he hasn't finished training yet. But I think Yama is his 'final test'.

So, Kallavan.

 

[Ripcord]

Current as in post Evankhell-training? I think it's implied he has been trained up to be able to take on Kallavan. Otherwise, what would have been the point? Unless he hasn't finished training yet. But I think Yama is his 'final test'.

So, Kallavan.

Tbh I don’t think he could take on Maschenny yet. Bam won’t be strong enough to take on Kallavan until a good portion of the way if not the end of S3 IMO. No way he can beat Kallavan now.

 

[kkck]

Personally I think his limit would be at about mid to high end rankers (before advanced rankers). Bam definitely has high ranker like raw power but as far as skill goes the amount of time that has passed since his training with evankhel started is too small. So bam is probably at a point where he can wield high ranker like strength but with none of the skill a high ranker has. Skill wise I'd guess he is still behind even normal rankers. He just has improved enough to actually be able to lord his raw power advantage over rankers. Odds are there are advanced or high rankers bam could hold at bay though.

 

[Wha]

Personally I think his limit would be at about mid to high end rankers (before advanced rankers). Bam definitely has high ranker like raw power but as far as skill goes the amount of time that has passed since his training with evankhel started is too small. So bam is probably at a point where he can wield high ranker like strength but with none of the skill a high ranker has. Skill wise I'd guess he is still behind even normal rankers. He just has improved enough to actually be able to lord his raw power advantage over rankers. Odds are there are advanced or high rankers bam could hold at bay though.

Depends on how you define skill. If you say that techniques, like the flare wave explosion, are part of a persons skill set, i disagree. If you say that skill defines how and when you use your technique(s) most sufficient to get what you want, i would agree.
He can learn skills like the flare wave explosion after getting hit once, he learns to create a bang and control it in three days, he even mixes several martial art skills to create his own unique style.
I also don't think it's about the time but what fundamental things he learns in that period. The one month on the hidden floor was worth more than his seven years with jinsung and co. Plus, the power > skill / technique part seems to shift slowly, it was the other way around at the beginning - so he had highly advanced techniques (flare wave) but not the power to back them up properly.

 

[kkck]

Depends on how you define skill. If you say that techniques, like the flare wave explosion, are part of a persons skill set, i disagree. If you say that skill defines how and when you use your technique(s) most sufficient to get what you want, i would agree.
He can learn skills like the flare wave explosion after getting hit once, he learns to create a bang and control it in three days, he even mixes several martial art skills to create his own unique style.
I also don't think it's about the time but what fundamental things he learns in that period. The one month on the hidden floor was worth more than his seven years with jinsung and co. Plus, the power > skill / technique part seems to shift slowly, it was the other way around at the beginning - so he had highly advanced techniques (flare wave) but not the power to back them up properly.

I mean that of course in how he uses his techniques and overall ability in executing them. As in, the finesse behind everything he does.

I am not sure if that is how it played out before. Back when season 2 started bam wasn't exactly struggling with skill or power so to speak. He had a proper hang of both for the floor he was in. If anything he was more skilled and more powerful than most regulars to begin with. You could say he had a right balance. Things got weird for him post workshop battle where his power began to skyrocket and he started having trouble burning out when using it. The thorn was a substantial strain on him and he pretty much collapsed when trying to board the train. The training with the guardian and revolution helped bam substantially in managing his continually increasing power and he seemed to be capable of using more power for more time without burning out. Finally completing his revolution and getting his shinsoo quality made his power pretty much explode but as we saw during the last station battle his skill did not keep up and he burned out relatively quickly.

In that sense, time is definitely a factor for bam. Because he learns as you say insanely quickly BUT it still takes him some time to be as good at it as those he copies them from. Less time than for a more average regular of course but he still needs to put some practice into it. I'd guess that a skillgap with a regular can be closed pretty much instantly but in turn a skillgap with a ranker should take well longer. As an example, consider bam's flare wave which he abuses more and more nowadays. During his training with evankhel bam meet that ha regular who refused to become a ranker. And what did the guy do? He took bam back to the basics to start working on the flare wave from..... zero (ugh). He basically started over. And I can't stress enough that this was the flare wave, a technique which bam learned from jinsung and has been using for decades.

Bam learns techniques instantly... and he can probably catch up to how a regular would use it pretty quickly. Weeks or months at the most. But rankers are a different beast altogether. Catching up to a ranker's skill probably takes years or decades. And of course, a high ranker is probably centuries ahead of a ranker... Bam needing decades to catch up to a high ranker's skill is not a stretch. Of course, bam will probably get victories over much more skilled rankers and high rankers than him via compensating with power. And by the time he has to face a family head, which could be as early as 50 floors from now, he will need to have the actual skill of a high ranker or more to fight.... My current guess is that bam needs at the most somewhere between 5 and 10 years to have the same skill as a ranker and an additional 10 years to have the same skill as a high ranker. Of course once bam has skills that actually compare to a rankers he'll be able to take on a high ranker and depending on the high ranker even win. Of course bam also needs to close the skill gap between him and the family heads.... Which should be a different animal from even most of the top 100 high rankers.

 

[Wha]

I mean that of course in how he uses his techniques and overall ability in executing them. As in, the finesse behind everything he does.

I am not sure if that is how it played out before. Back when season 2 started bam wasn't exactly struggling with skill or power so to speak. He had a proper hang of both for the floor he was in. If anything he was more skilled and more powerful than most regulars to begin with. You could say he had a right balance. Things got weird for him post workshop battle where his power began to skyrocket and he started having trouble burning out when using it. The thorn was a substantial strain on him and he pretty much collapsed when trying to board the train. The training with the guardian and revolution helped bam substantially in managing his continually increasing power and he seemed to be capable of using more power for more time without burning out. Finally completing his revolution and getting his shinsoo quality made his power pretty much explode but as we saw during the last station battle his skill did not keep up and he burned out relatively quickly.

In that sense, time is definitely a factor for bam. Because he learns as you say insanely quickly BUT it still takes him some time to be as good at it as those he copies them from. Less time than for a more average regular of course but he still needs to put some practice into it. I'd guess that a skillgap with a regular can be closed pretty much instantly but in turn a skillgap with a ranker should take well longer. As an example, consider bam's flare wave which he abuses more and more nowadays. During his training with evankhel bam meet that ha regular who refused to become a ranker. And what did the guy do? He took bam back to the basics to start working on the flare wave from..... zero (ugh). He basically started over. And I can't stress enough that this was the flare wave, a technique which bam learned from jinsung and has been using for decades.

Bam learns techniques instantly... and he can probably catch up to how a regular would use it pretty quickly. Weeks or months at the most. But rankers are a different beast altogether. Catching up to a ranker's skill probably takes years or decades. And of course, a high ranker is probably centuries ahead of a ranker... Bam needing decades to catch up to a high ranker's skill is not a stretch. Of course, bam will probably get victories over much more skilled rankers and high rankers than him via compensating with power. And by the time he has to face a family head, which could be as early as 50 floors from now, he will need to have the actual skill of a high ranker or more to fight.... My current guess is that bam needs at the most somewhere between 5 and 10 years to have the same skill as a ranker and an additional 10 years to have the same skill as a high ranker. Of course once bam has skills that actually compare to a rankers he'll be able to take on a high ranker and depending on the high ranker even win. Of course bam also needs to close the skill gap between him and the family heads.... Which should be a different animal from even most of the top 100 high rankers.

I do agree with almost everything you say, except for the high ranker being that more skilled than rankers or even regulars (generally) part. I think that skill, like it was defined by us, is experience + talent. Since the talent part is (in ToG) already set when you are born (with a few exceptions, like White might have messed with it due to his demon / spells or Hell Joe due to the thryssa), it leaves the experience part. Although you can gain it through training on your own, I do think that you get out the most of it in an actual fight. Siu stated that fights like Yuri & Karaka (fight number 1) rarely happen. Which means that the skill of a ranker or high ranker can highly differ and could even be inferior to some a class regular, since fighting is their daily bred (of the regulars).
Maybe that's one of the reasons that the cage produces that much Rankers and High Rankers, despite having a rather small "gene pool".

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Tbh I don’t think he could take on Maschenny yet. Bam won’t be strong enough to take on Kallavan until a good portion of the way if not the end of S3 IMO. No way he can beat Kallavan now.

You may be right, and he may need to vacuum up another thorn fragment before then, but I think he has all the tools necessary to accomplish the job.

I don't imagine any more crazy power additions other than thorns. He already has the billions of souls, kind of, what appears to be a blue and red thryssa, and going back to the rice pot is out of the question. What the hell else does he need now that he has a million different buffs, battle experience, and has hammered out his basics? If he doesn't have it now, he won't have it this season short of another insane buff/powerup.

 

[DERRICK S NIBLACK]

The issue Baam had was he was dealing with so much power without backing up his body. Now Baam has the body of a Ranker and his body could withstand his powers.

Without the thorn he seems to be able to be on par with Rankers and confident he could defeat one. Before the time skip Baam's 100% power could damage a normal High Ranker and even crack Kallavan's defense, even if it was small. Now at 100% he should be able to use 2 thorns casually so even Kallavan's defense shouldn't be a match.

Baam while releasing his "true power" mode is definitely High Ranker level, possibly even Yuri's level in power. His burnt chestnut form is going to be something else, if Baam is confident in fighting Yami. Baam isn't stupid, he never picks a fight he can't win and even if he is over powered he pulls out more power.

 

[King Dryst]

Baam isn't stupid, he never picks a fight he can't win and even if he is over powered he pulls out more power.

Mule Love, Urek, Karaka, Hell Joe, Kallavan, and he damned well risked it again with Baylord Yama. Those are all battles that Baam had the option not to leap into and chose to do regardless. I'm not going to count Hoaqin who would have been another one if not for him being given a random powerup that he had no clue about, since he didn't really engage there on his own terms.

Baam picks plenty of fights that are out of his ballpark.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

And that's why we love him?

 

[CantiOG]

You guys think he trained with the Thorn at all or has not used it since S2?

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

You guys think he trained with the Thorn at all or has not used it since S2?

Good question. My guess is no as Evankhell forbade the usage during basics/boot-camp.

Though I bet when he DOES use it he'll be able to use it for a longer duration, or to greater effect now that he's on a stable platform.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Current as in post Evankhell-training? I think it's implied he has been trained up to be able to take on Kallavan. Otherwise, what would have been the point? Unless he hasn't finished training yet. But I think Yama is his 'final test'.

So, Kallavan.

Bump.... and while clearly wrong about Yama being a test for Baam to fight, will I end up being crazy enough with the Baam V Kallavan prediction?

 

[BamFan]

The comparison is complicated baam with anyone else. We don't know how other irregulars developed. Training is also not clarified properly. His power disrupts the shinsoo resistance of others like taking hand of young data jahad and hurting kallavan when his EOB was activated. So in terms of privileges Baam can stand up to a high ranker but in stamina and brute force he is no where near high ranker. If others can create a situation where Baam can attack Kallavan . Baam can seriously hurt or even immobilize kallavan.

 

[Orbs2op]

Bam using everything he got, can beat a advance ranker to low end high rankers, he is only at floor 58 the contracts shackle him to regulars limits imo, by floor 70 his powers will truly start to transcend after more high level fights like gado.

All bam has been doing is working on his foundation, looking at his appearance in his last talk with the new teacher, he hasn't been that long since that part of his training ended, yhs still teaches him wave controlling and evk orb aoe, now he just got transformation, he hasn't been working on the other powers either, bam was very stubborn about not activating thorn 1, so he will get a boost in power to overwhelm opponents at a certain level, calzon held gado for reason.

kallavan types are not gonna just chill and let bam attack them either, and they use attacks that can wipeout hundreds of rankers in one go, much less 1v1 when bam max output is around 50% of their normal powers, that why his fight comes down to his powers attributes, high rankers wants to kinda kill you, just use a admin sword that sentient that can hurt him instantly, when none of his other attacks would, red t saved the day is that skill or his powers taking over?

Thorn 1 made red t level 2 and it attacked on autopilot, where is the skill? That gonna overcome kallavan? The loops couldn't even stop gado, he didn't even have time to use them much always on the defensive, there is a key difference between spamming powers and skills, it's takes years of experience and training to be a high ranker, thousands of years experience are not gonna lose out to a kid who barely got a grasp on his powers true abilities in a real fight.

 

[link to the past]

Quite frankly we haven't ever seen Bam ignite the second thorn fragment as well. His fight with Kallavan will probably be the first time he does it. So the last time we saw Bam using all his power was versus data Zahard and from the moment he unsealed the second fragment he hasn't displayed his maximum potential against an opponent. And seeing the trend i will say that gradually he will match Kallavan level during the fight with him. He already overpowered Gado who was stronger than Canzon, another high ranker with just pulling out one piece of the thorn. Igniting both thorns this time perhaps he can reach near Kallavan level during his fight.

 

[Orbs2op]

Bam didn't overpower gado though, didn't fight him at all, red t attacked he dodged and calzon held him, gado said he needed to take care of bam before he master red t powers, thorn or not he knew that killing bam was a possibility still, that not someone getting overwhelmed just surprised tbh, bam was a bit shaken by level 2 initial attack, so he concentrate shinwonryu into the blade only, just winging it with all his powers is not gonna let him win.

thorn 2 ignition is either aoe space bursting or spatial control either way, he hasn't practice it or know what it does yet, he surely didn't use it after fully activating it, thorn 1 seem unstable like it's calibrating to bam strength, imagine thorn 2 which he is less familiar with?

Let's be honest bam doesn't really pay attention to the thorns, red t, blue t or bm, all the training he did was base stuff, now he just gonna activate them all and beat kallavan, with no better grasp of his power up's since the train? Having experience and strength of a 3 thousand years is a joke.

The best thing bam has going for him is, that all his powers up are sentient and can do whatever his instincts tell him or they autopilot to save him.

 

[shaheer]

I think yuri.. But I m not sure if he can beat her.. May be that other Ha girl who looked like a clown who is just slightly weaker than yuri

 

[Orbs2op]

Red t level 2 is high ranker strength it will carry bam, since it not relying on bam strength but it own, it can draw power from the thorn to evolve a level, so if bam gets pushed level 3 or 4 should be enough for kallavan to back off.

bam attacks in general should be useless against high rankers, outside of thorn 2 space bursting buff, red t and blue t, bm is limited to his overall strength maybe thorn 2 as well going by thorn 1, so the admin fragments right now can hurt and block high rankers, with or without bam having to do anything really, hopefully he masters them quickly and not get carried, that boring and I like the admins a lot, he needs to win fights on skills and not just hax autopilot.