The last fight has given Laxus the edge for me.
Man tanked Natsu and Grays powers being utilized by FLAME PANTS ERZA AT THE SAME FUCKING TIME! BUT ONLY AFTER HE TANKED A SHOT FROM A FUCKING KRYPTONITE SWORD!
Fantastic, all according to my Keiku
All hail the GOAT
The last fight has given Laxus the edge for me.
Man tanked Natsu and Grays powers being utilized by FLAME PANTS ERZA AT THE SAME FUCKING TIME! BUT ONLY AFTER HE TANKED A SHOT FROM A FUCKING KRYPTONITE SWORD!
Fantastic, all according to my Keiku
All hail the GOAT
Well with this borrowed magic, erza fuked up laxus as mush as laxus fuked up erza.
Since laxus has better durability plus endurance it follows that erza has better attack power. Since they are in equal state at the end
Well with this borrowed magic, erza fuked up laxus as mush as laxus fuked up erza.
Since laxus has better durability plus endurance it follows that erza has better attack power. Since they are in equal state at the end
Eh, Serena is always hard to debate due to how Hiro wasted him. In the scans I have access to though Gildarts never hypes him by saying him and alive Goddy would be on the same level, he just says Serena would be a "formidable Mage" and "a force to be reckoned with":
Its still decent hype but not hype that justifies him being seen as on Gildarts' tier.
Shouldn't Gildarts basically only know of Serena through hype? By the sounds of it he's never seen Serena fight. At which point Gildarts is either hyping him based off his Magic Power, which we now know doesn't mean much in the big picture, or he was going off reputation, which likewise we now know after the GOI means almost nothing.
While definitely a decent feat, I took that more as Gildarts wanting to finish Serena quickly because they were in a rush:
Serena is definitely not >> all of the other normal S12's. The likes of Ajeel, Invel and Neinhart? I'd agree with that. But Jacob, Brandish, Wahl and Bradman should all be close to him or on his level, and Brandish has shown she can trap S12's in Age Seal so she should definitely be > Serena.
That is unless you mean in raw firepower. In that case I'd argue Wahl >= to Serena but otherwise, agreed.
As for saying Serena's better due to untrustworthy GOI hype, its a decent point but undercut by Makarov:
Makarov makes no comment about Serena being particularly exceptional. While Makarov himself could be an unreliable source of info, its still yet another occasion where Goddy is seemingly = to the other S12. And considering he has only one (highly unquantifiable) feat, which is him stomping characters that are near featless, I think this is one of the few times where the hype may have been correct (at least in that Goddy = regular S12).
Problem is that the statement is vague as hell and no one even really gets damaged. Like, its barely hurting the likes of Juvia and Lucy.
Given the context, I find it more likely Erza is commenting on Serena using multiple DS elements at the same time.
Would you mind posting some scans of Mard tanking CSK's attacks? I remember him dodging all of them rather than tanking.
As for their rivalry, I accept that there is one and that the last time they fought they were almost certainly equal. However, all that means is that whoever summoned CSK in the past had enough MP to scale CSK to Etherious Mard. Even if that isn't the case and it turns out CSK = Etherious Mard, it still doesn't mean much in terms of tankiness unless we know Etherious Mard tanked attacks from him. Unless I've overlooked something (which to be fair I easily could of), I just think its too much of an assumption to think Etherious Mard could tank CSK's attacks.
Larcade only ate attacks from Kagura and Sting prior to Rough Silk. Like, he blocked Archenemy with ease and following that the only attacks he tanked were Holy Ray, Holy Nova and then a blast from WSD Sting. That isn't bad but the first two spells came from base Sting, and the latter was nameless. Even if you want to say that Larcade is tanking named spells better than Kyria tanked unnamed spells, you have to remember that one unnamed punch from Laxus completely broke Erza's anti-lightning armour and had her screaming in pain:
If Larcade was taken down by that assault from Sting, no way in hell would he tank a barrage of unnamed punches from Laxus, let alone his Secret Art.
There is a difference but this is just lowballing Kyria.
The reason Sting lasted so long against Larcade is because Larcade relies on hax. So long as Sting could get around said hax he could put up a fight because Larcade isn't someone that fights with overwhelming power. Hell when Sting was affected by Hunger, Larcade was battering him with his cross. Let me repeat that - Sting was getting seriously hurt by a cross. If Sting's durability is like that, there's no way he's comparing to Kyria who tanked multiple attacks from Laxus and 'only' got KO'd by his Secret Art.
Killing intent is present against Kyria by Laxus' own admission:
Also Wahl deciding to tank it was a reasonable action, Laxus just happened to gain Red Lightning in that moment and Wahl couldn't analyse it because... reasons.
That isn't how it happened with Marin. Erza started being handicapped by Marin when Ajeel surrounded her with sand the first time:
The second Marin's Spatial Magic stopped restricting Erza she got in a major hit. So Erza was actually free to use her Requip when Ajeel was choking her, hence her using Nakagami to signal to Bisca.
Keep in mind that Ajeel also had another huge advantage over her in his intangibility. Had Ajeel not been intangible she could have been damaging him from the very start. Intangibility and Marin's interference are the only reasons that fight went on for so long, otherwise Erza could have used Nakagami long before he used Sand World.
I say that its a near outlier because Erza has tanked and endured far worse and the Historias themselves all mention how Erza isn't on form:
Seriously, if 100YQ Erza can give Laxus an extreme-diff match then either this is an outlier or Erza has grown far more powerful than she was in Alvarez. In which case using this feat against the Historias is pointless.
Okay I was being too liberal saying she 'casually' took those attacks. Still, she caught those attacks at the same time and seemed more hurt by the fact that they were fighting than the actual damage she suffered.
And agreed on Wendy's healing lmfao.
I don't want to sound like a douche, I'm being entirely genuine here when I ask this, but why are we talking about Irene?
Well, kinda hard to respond to all (esp because of panels, making me confusing while quoting lol). I'll respond in general.
I'd say that GOI knows Serena much better than Makarov, and even they had no idea of how strong he actually was. He ended up being much stronger than what the GOI had assessed, and that was in his base! He gets further powerup when he activated his lacrima.
Towards the end of the fight, Gildarts comments about wanting to know who would've been the last one standing by the end:
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If you go by this translation, it certainly hints that Serena = Gildarts tier. This is what I've seen from all of the translations I've seen online from google search now.
You may say, it depends on the translation. Well, the other translation says something along 'I would've loved to fight you when you were at your full strength'. Even this way, the portrayal is there. That Gildarts saw Serena, either as an equal (1st translation), or at the very least as a legit challenge (2nd translation)
The fact that Serena was able to give Gildarts minor injuries, with just a fraction of his powers, does vindicate his hype by Gildarts. His headbutt with Gildarts was able to blow back Natsu and co (tho in their base) with the shockwaves
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Do you really think that an average Spriggan could do this, as a freaking Historia? I don't understand how you can't see the portrayal here, especially when historia Wahl and Bradman couldn't defeat fodder Minerva and base Rouge
There is no way Serena is below Brandish of all people, she's fodder with high magic power/hax and with Lucy tier stats (Lucy was legit blitzing her, sure she held back in the sense that she didn't explode Lucy's organs; but getting blitzed by Lucy is a big L.....in fact all she took were L's in that arc). Her hax failed to work on Neinhart who got wrecked by base Natsu.
I think you meant Dimaria, since you mentioned Age Seal. I think Laxus tier and above should be immune to her hax. END powered out of it (though apparently according to @Jean Grey Mashima said in an interview that END can do it just cause he can because of his nature/specialty apparently)
Laxus could've just killed Kiria then and there, she was out cold. He clearly didn't have any real killing intent. Actually, none of the mages under WW control, except fucking Lissana, seemed to give a damn about her commands at all.
Wahl was a retard lol, but he still got killed by one proper hit from him (even if it contained all of Laxus's remaining power, it's still underwhelming IMO).
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This isn't a feat of tanking, but Mard doesn't seem to be too worried about the offensive Galaxia Blade (which CSK instead used in a different way, directing it's powers to dispel Alegria instead)
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Bisca helping out Erza evens out the help from Marin. In fact, Marin's help barely had any lasting effect at all, only Bisca's was the deciding factor.
Marin's help ended here:
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Read from there onwards, Ajeel then later on went to overwhelm and defeat her in his sand world. Without Bisca's help she would've been dead.
I don't see how Erza vs Neinhart is outlier at all. In terms of magic power, Neinhart is very high. The guy maintained 3 Historia Spriggan with his magic power (tho not at full power)
If he concentrates his magic power onto 3 mages, that faced Erza, I don't see why he can't amp them up enough to defeat her.
Erza was able to give Laxus extreme diff only after:
- Laxus beat Kiria
- Erza got multiple external buffs
Laxus can mid-high diff Erza without dragon seal and Natsu/Gray powers.
Also, the main cast always grow at a higher rate compared to others. With every arc, Erza has been reducing her gap with Laxus. Natsu has already overtaken him (and possibly Gildarts) by now.
Erza is used to pain tolerance lol (she probably has the highest pain tolerance in the entire series), she's 'hurt' more by feels than actual injury lol. I'd say that burning one hand to crisp and freezing the other to the point of cracking are significant damages. If Wendy wasn't so fucking broken, Alverez would've ended with Spriggan victory lol - she healed up Erza twice from near death experience, healed up Juvia literally from the dead (Invel's ice lock is supposed to break only if one of them DIED), somehow learned how to enchant herself to Eileen's body etc
I mentioned Eileen because you bought up her fight with Erza.
Well with this borrowed magic, erza fuked up laxus as mush as laxus fuked up erza.
Since laxus has better durability plus endurance it follows that erza has better attack power. Since they are in equal state at the end
Laxus ran out of magic power because he had to deal with Kyria beforehand and even used a secret art to put her down
A fresh Laxus wipes Erza with magic to spare
Just want to check, this is still all about Kyria's durability in relation to the durability of characters like Sting/Jura/Wahl/etc. right? If not just ignore my last paragraph lmao
I'm only asking because I don't want to lose sight of what we're arguing.
I'd say that GOI knows Serena much better than Makarov, and even they had no idea of how strong he actually was. He ended up being much stronger than what the GOI had assessed, and that was in his base! He gets further powerup when he activated his lacrima.
Makarov actually might be the most reliable witness here, he was in Alvarez for a full year and met Serena + other Spriggans.
Now, I would think that if Serena was so far above the others Makarov would have made note of something, but August is the only one that he regards as special. Usually with the Spriggans, the 'special' ones are given some hype about how strong or different their Magic is, like with August/Irene/Larcade. But for Serena? Nothing.
There's also nothing to suggest Serena using his DS Magic made him any stronger, he was just using more powerful spells.
Btw, where do you rate the GOI + Jura on the power scale? Because this could be the big reason why we're at odds regarding Serena's strength.
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If you go by this translation, it certainly hints that Serena = Gildarts tier. This is what I've seen from all of the translations I've seen online from google search now.
You may say, it depends on the translation. Well, the other translation says something along 'I would've loved to fight you when you were at your full strength'. Even this way, the portrayal is there. That Gildarts saw Serena, either as an equal (1st translation), or at the very least as a legit challenge (2nd translation)
Do we know if Gildarts' has actually met Serena before? Because this could easily just be Gildarts thinking the Number 1 Wizard Saint has to be on his level or above him, not realising that Spriggan hype was a joke lol.
Like, the lines are decent hype but can we really trust it? Hype was wildly inaccurate in Alvarez.
The fact that Serena was able to give Gildarts minor injuries, with just a fraction of his powers, does vindicate his hype by Gildarts. His headbutt with Gildarts was able to blow back Natsu and co (tho in their base) with the shockwaves
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Do you really think that an average Spriggan could do this, as a freaking Historia? I don't understand how you can't see the portrayal here, especially when historia Wahl and Bradman couldn't defeat fodder Minerva and base Rouge
That headbutt was a clash between Serena AND Gildarts. If Serena is at 33% of his power as a Historia then it wouldn't be beyond belief to think that most of that shockwave was generated by Gildarts (not to mention Gilldarts' attacks frequently create shockwaves anyway, so it could even have potentially been entirely caused by Gildarts).
As for the question about whether I think Historia Wahl/Bradman could do it, I don't think it matters. The shockwave didn't really do anything except impress Carla anyway. If a character like Gray or even Wendy had said something I might have agreed that it mattered, but a shockwave that only impressed Carla isn't anything special.
Also, we don't know whether Hist Bradman/Wahl were defeated by Rogue and Minerva, they were pretty even at every point we saw them at. Hell, they themselves couldn't tell if they had won or Makarov's Fairy Law had killed them.
There is no way Serena is below Brandish of all people, she's fodder with high magic power/hax and with Lucy tier stats (Lucy was legit blitzing her, sure she held back in the sense that she didn't explode Lucy's organs; but getting blitzed by Lucy is a big L.....in fact all she took were L's in that arc). Her hax failed to work on Neinhart who got wrecked by base Natsu.
The first time Brandish caught her attack with ease and struck her back, which is a good strength feat consider Lucy was using the Taurus Star Dress. The second time was a legit blitz, but even then its dubious since she was distracted by Scorpio's attack. The third and last time only happened because Lucy was tiny and Brandish couldn't grab her, and I don't think she's getting blitzed because she's staring directly at her. All of this definitely sets her as > Lucy when it comes to physical stats.
As for the argument about her hax failing on Enhanced Neinhart, who was two-shotted by base Natsu... this is faulty for two reasons:
1) Neinhart being made from paper has no correlation to her hax failing, this was just an example of superior MP making hax fail
More importantly though:
2) Brandish could have killed base Natsu just as easily as Lucy via organ bursting lol, so the A > B > C logic you're employing here makes no sense
I think you meant Dimaria, since you mentioned Age Seal. I think Laxus tier and above should be immune to her hax. END powered out of it (though apparently according to @Jean Grey Mashima said in an interview that END can do it just cause he can because of his nature/specialty apparently).
Laxus could've just killed Kiria then and there, she was out cold. He clearly didn't have any real killing intent. Actually, none of the mages under WW control, except fucking Lissana, seemed to give a damn about her commands at all.
Wahl was a retard lol, but he still got killed by one proper hit from him (even if it contained all of Laxus's remaining power, it's still underwhelming IMO).
Eh, Wahl as a Machias is naturally weak to lightning anyway, so Red Lightning killing him isn't exactly a surprise. Hell August thinks Ajeel would have died to a nameless, non-Red Lightning Mode bolt lmfao, so at least he doesn't suck that badly.
This isn't a feat of tanking, but Mard doesn't seem to be too worried about the offensive Galaxia Blade (which CSK instead used in a different way, directing it's powers to dispel Alegria instead)
Bisca helping out Erza evens out the help from Marin. In fact, Marin's help barely had any lasting effect at all, only Bisca's was the deciding factor.
Marin's help ended here:
Marin''s interference barely had any lasting effect? Not sure how you've come to that conclusion when I've given you scans proving that when Erza could Requip again she instantly went on to deal two damaging attacks on him, since it allowed her to bypass his intangibility.
Also its true that Bisca saved Erza, but saying Ajeel didn't have more advantages in that fight is ludicrous when its a fight between a swords woman and someone who is immune to conventional swords.
I don't see how Erza vs Neinhart is outlier at all. In terms of magic power, Neinhart is very high. The guy maintained 3 Historia Spriggan with his magic power (tho not at full power)
If he concentrates his magic power onto 3 mages, that faced Erza, I don't see why he can't amp them up enough to defeat her.
At the same time as Erza was fighting those Historia, Neinhart was also powering:
- Hades
- Zancrow
- Ur
- Keyes
- Ezel
If Neinhart was amping the three Erza was facing, it shouldn't have been by much.
The reason I'm quite sure its an outlier is that they somehow put Erza down. This is the same Erza that Irene struggled to put down later, only succeeding by hitting her as a god damn Dragon. If these three Historias can put her down but Irene can't, something's wack.
Erza was able to give Laxus extreme diff only after:
- Laxus beat Kiria
- Erza got multiple external buffs
Laxus can mid-high diff Erza without dragon seal and Natsu/Gray powers.
Also, the main cast always grow at a higher rate compared to others. With every arc, Erza has been reducing her gap with Laxus. Natsu has already overtaken him (and possibly Gildarts) by now.
While the bit about Erza only giving Laxus an extreme diff after he's fought Kyria and she's pulled out some new shit is true, that shouldn't have affected the damage output of Laxus. As it stands the battle with Erza tells us that even nameless punches from Laxus are enough to shatter Erza's anti-lightning armour and leave her screaming in agony - and since we're discussing Kyria's durability, how Laxus was hurt by Erza or anything like that doesn't really matter.
Knowing how powerful even Laxus' nameless attacks are, Kyria's durability starts looking pretty impressive since she managed to have a little skirmish with him, to the point that Laxus chose to use a Secret Art. While not as impressive as pressuring him to enter Red Lightning Mode, its still a good feat because it shows she's durable enough to warrant someone as powerful as Laxus to jump to a high-tier spell to put her down.
Just compare that to Ajeel, who August said would have died from a nameless nuke and Wahl who died the second Laxus' Magic actually affected him. Thus, Kyria actually being able to have a short skirmish with him and survive a Secret Art should put her durability far above the likes of Wahl and Ajeel (and consequently above Sting and Jura).
Erza is used to pain tolerance lol (she probably has the highest pain tolerance in the entire series), she's 'hurt' more by feels than actual injury lol. I'd say that burning one hand to crisp and freezing the other to the point of cracking are significant damages.
I mean, I agree but this only makes Kyria look more impressive.
You yourself say that Erza's pain tolerance is probably the best in the entire series. And she clearly took both of Gray and Natsu's attacks without so much as a peep. Yet a nameless strike from Laxus had her screaming. Due to this, I think at the very least that Laxus' nameless punches are just as, if not more, damaging than the attacks from Gray and Natsu. And Kyria required a Secret Art to be taken down. This should put her durability as far above any of the regular Spriggans considering they were getting seriously injured from attacks like the ones Erza stopped.
If Wendy wasn't so fucking broken, Alverez would've ended with Spriggan victory lol - she healed up Erza twice from near death experience, healed up Juvia literally from the dead (Invel's ice lock is supposed to break only if one of them DIED), somehow learned how to enchant herself to Eileen's body etc
Ah, my bad! My point with Irene was to emphasise how much of an outlier the Neinhart fight is. Like, should I really think 3 Historias are more dangerous to Erza than the blasts Human Irene was throwing at her?
To round this all up, my argument is that Laxus scales so highly above the previous power levels that Kyria even just having a skirmish with Laxus puts her massively above the likes of Jura (stomped by casual Serena) and Sting (who got moderately hurt by Larcade's cross). Her surviving Roaring Thunder (and Laxus choosing to use that to put her down) puts her massively above the likes of Ajeel (who August thought would have died to a nameless nuke), Jacob (who was one-shotted by FDK Demo Fist) and Wahl (who was one-shot killed by Red Lightning).
Laxus ran out of magic power because he had to deal with Kyria beforehand and even used a secret art to put her down
A fresh Laxus wipes Erza with magic to spare
How tf Laxus and Erza can be above August Dude took Gildarts strongest attack and got back up like a champ. Erza and Laxus would be demolished by this attack. Natsu should be higher than them too, the guy has the best stamina and durability feats in the guild.
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defeated my girl on all of them
Dude took Gildarts strongest attack and got back up like a champ. Erza and Laxus would be demolished by this attack. Natsu should be higher than them too, the guy has the best stamina and durability feats in the guild.