Discussion Borrowed powers in Taizai

[Boldon]

Is anyone else disappointed that so many characters have powers that does not belong to them? It's insane how many of them there are:

_all 7DS: Sacred treasures, came out of nowhere, who's the Smith? No one knows who made them except for King's spear, why aren't more of them made for other knights, or why don't 10C or Archangels have their own?

_all commandments: I wouldn't mind them just getting curses but noooo it's also comes with a huge power boost, why can't Nakaba let people have their own strength?

_All Archangels: This is the worst, imagine if what we know as graces were just their innate magic ability, that would be soooo sick. Every humans out there have cool elemental magic and it wasn't fking borrowed. SD should've just given them immunity to curses. This is far beyond a power boost, this is straight up 90% of their Arsenal.

I don't even want to go character by character.

I have so much respect for Howzer, Gilthunder, Zaratras and every human in Taizai, they actually work for their strength, and when they do have to use outside help it comes at a price (Denzel) or its earned (Dreyfus increasing his size) or it's through loss (Jericho)

I don't understand why Nakaba made this choice at all

 

[Tragicdeath]

Youre forgetting Cath who ate peronia and Twigo jack of all trades.

 

[T25]

Is anyone else disappointed that so many characters have powers that does not belong to them? It's insane how many of them there are:

_all 7DS: Sacred treasures, came out of nowhere, who's the Smith? No one knows who made them except for King's spear, why aren't more of them made for other knights, or why don't 10C or Archangels have their own?

_all commandments: I wouldn't mind them just getting curses but noooo it's also comes with a huge power boost, why can't Nakaba let people have their own strength?

_All Archangels: This is the worst, imagine if what we know as graces were just their innate magic ability, that would be soooo sick. Every humans out there have cool elemental magic and it wasn't fking borrowed. SD should've just given them immunity to curses. This is far beyond a power boost, this is straight up 90% of their Arsenal.

I don't even want to go character by character.

I have so much respect for Howzer, Gilthunder, Zaratras and every human in Taizai, they actually work for their strength, and when they do have to use outside help it comes at a price (Denzel) or its earned (Dreyfus increasing his size) or it's through loss (Jericho)

I don't understand why Nakaba made this choice at all

While the representation and given significance of borrowed powers is an issue for me as well, especially for the AA, I believe your point kind of fractures when you mention humans. Those borrowed powers in the case of the AA and commandments was granted them because of the receivers own degree of power. The AA and commandments were granted borrowed power because their powers were already at a level far above the common folk. This was their own talent and or merit, not something the borrowed power gave them for the most part. The issue is in how the borrowed power superseded the presentation of their own powers. This a point for the AA far more than the commandments however as the 10s powers presented were more of their own abilities more than it was their borrowed powers.

As for the sacred treasures, with the exception of king, the STs granted no power boost just, for the most part, a single supplementary ability. Mel can clone himself with it....escanors is a “can you hold this for me for a bit” little storage and shipping item....dianes is a type of lightning rod more or less. Can’t really say it beefs em up. I don’t really think the STs are an issue as far as borrowed powers overshadowing ones own powers go in any story.

So yea when you say that the humans “actually worked for their strength,” the comparison holds completely false as I see it.

 

[Merlin918]

Is anyone else disappointed that so many characters have powers that does not belong to them? It's insane how many of them there are:

_all 7DS: Sacred treasures, came out of nowhere, who's the Smith? No one knows who made them except for King's spear, why aren't more of them made for other knights, or why don't 10C or Archangels have their own?

It's a valid point but they have actually pointed out that other knights can get similar armaments,for example, look at that time when Guila got a special drill-like sword weapon that let her control tons more explosion orbs. As for the 10C, they just showed up recently, same with the archangels. It's not like they have open portals to their respective realms that would let them get a properly forged weapon made and delivered to them. Some of them like Garan or Zeldris already use weapons that aren't made out of energy, and their weapons don't seem to have special powers, so yeah, it does seem like Nakaba didn't really think about that.

_all commandments: I wouldn't mind them just getting curses but noooo it's also comes with a huge power boost, why can't Nakaba let people have their own strength?

_All Archangels: This is the worst, imagine if what we know as graces were just their innate magic ability, that would be soooo sick. Every humans out there have cool elemental magic and it wasn't fking borrowed. SD should've just given them immunity to curses. This is far beyond a power boost, this is straight up 90% of their Arsenal.

I don't even want to go character by character.

I have so much respect for Howzer, Gilthunder, Zaratras and every human in Taizai, they actually work for their strength, and when they do have to use outside help it comes at a price (Denzel) or its earned (Dreyfus increasing his size) or it's through loss (Jericho)

I don't understand why Nakaba made this choice at all

To be fair, I think the commadments do have high 'base' strength before being chosen. Let's say a commandment being granted is worth between 20 or 30k in power boosting. That means most of them have at least 20K or so strength at base, so they are already much stronger than normal demons or even albions. Archangels are more problematic since their fighting style revolves more around their grace. At least they all know how to use light magic on their own, but it is true that it diminishes them a bit when their main weapon is not theirs. Then again, this is similar to sacred treasures and it doesn't necessarily mean they would be shit at combat even without a grace. But I see where you're coming from with that.

 

[Boldon]

While the representation and given significance of borrowed powers is an issue for me as well, especially for the AA, I believe your point kind of fractures when you mention humans. Those borrowed powers in the case of the AA and commandments was granted them because of the receivers own degree of power. The AA and commandments were granted borrowed power because their powers were already at a level far above the common folk. This was their own talent and or merit, not something the borrowed power gave them for the most part. The issue is in how the borrowed power superseded the presentation of their own powers. This a point for the AA far more than the commandments however as the 10s powers presented were more of their own abilities more than it was their borrowed powers.

As for the sacred treasures, with the exception of king, the STs granted no power boost just, for the most part, a single supplementary ability. Mel can clone himself with it....escanors is a “can you hold this for me for a bit” little storage and shipping item....dianes is a type of lightning rod more or less. Can’t really say it beefs em up. I don’t really think the STs are an issue as far as borrowed powers overshadowing ones own powers go in any story.

So yea when you say that the humans “actually worked for their strength,” the comparison holds completely false as I see it.

I see your point, yeah in that sense they did work hard to get their power from their deities.

As for sacred treasures, it's even sadder that they don't work as King described, it's basically just a random weapon with a bonus ability.

 

[Samael Morningstar]

We really need a Might Guy and Rock Lee in every series who will prove that with hard work you can be the strongest... Not just borrowing powers and pulling bullshits like it mostly happens

 

[OtakuFreak]

In retrospect Nakaba should've adjusted reworked the powers of the 10C'S & AA's:

1) 10C's should've kept the curses that the commandments invoked upon specific conditions, but then given a specific signature attack to the holder. If these signature attacks induced some type of psychological state of behaviour from an individual then it could've forced them to activate the conditions of the commandment much more easily. For example, the ''Love'' commandment could've had a special attack which invoked the feeling of hatred inside an individual, directly activating the commandment in the vicinity and thus making them lose all power to fight. Another example could be ''pacifism'' invoking the unstoppable desire of wanting to murder someone (even if it's as small as an insect) and thus would help invoke the commandment which can take someone's life away.

This way the 10C's have curses from the Demon King which enforce order within the demonic realm (fitting the lore) whilst providing them with a frightening aspect of power that can significantly help them in battle. Even if you can directly avoid the conditions of the commandment (I.E Have no hatred) the user of the decree itself can still force you to fulfil those conditions against your will with said signature attack.


2) As for the AA:

-AA's are granted immunity from all commandments and abilities linked to said decree (but still take damage from said decree attack)

-AA's have been bestowed a ''blessing'' by their God whom ''blesses'' others around them.

-To be ''blessed'' by an AA, one must have faith/loyalty to the Supreme Deity. As such, this would mean the entire Goddess Clan minus 1/2 would be blessed by an AA's presence.

-AA's could ''bless'' individuals to be unable to die, become empowered magically/physically/spiritually ETC. Each AA has a single specific ''blessing'' that is applied to individuals around them.

-AA's blessing does not affect the other AA or the individual holding said blessing. (I.E Minus the AA, it only affects the people around them)

-Tornado/Ocean/Flash & Sun are the inherent magical abilities of the AA. However, due to Mael being recognised as the ''Mightiest Member of the Four Archangels'' the Supreme Deity gave a small piece of her power to strengthen his inherent magical ability to a higher level (which what it is now). Additionally, due to the merge of Mael's inherent magical ability with the SD's power, Sun became known as the ''Grace of the Goddess Clan'' which eventually fell into Escanor's possession for unknown reasons.

-Mael is the leader of the AA's, not Ludoshel (only when Mael ''died'' did the leadership fall to him though)

This would solidify the Four Archangels as the strongest fighting force of the Goddess Clan, whilst ensuring they are the best counter to the Ten Commandments due to the blessings & immunity they possess from the Supreme Deity. Additionally, each of the AA's powers would feel more explored given how Ocean/Tornado/Flash/Sun were their own powers from the start. Mael would also be recognised as the ''Grace of the Goddess Clan'' due to being the strongest AA whom received power from their God for his feats and would explain the Goddesses actions when he ''died''.

 

[T25]

Hey look it's you after so many days

--- Double Post Merged, May 17, 2019, Original Post Date: May 17, 2019 ---

I don't think GC clan has any magic and if yes then none of the 4AA shown any of their innate magic other than their graces and to be honest I find it very odd that every clan members have their own innate magic where as the GC being one of the strongest clans their members are not having any innate magic ability.

Also the reason I praise Mael too much because that dude was an weakling and someone who couldn't even kill a single bug, but he trained, fought, worked hard and became stronger and stronger to level that he was claimed the strongest GC member and was worthy enough to be given the strongest grace "sunshine" Which no one ever got before even ludo who was fighting since mael was a kid and being such a powerful and efficient warrior and the one who held the balance during his lifetime (before Mael) never became worthy enough for that grace of sunshine, for the grace of sunshine needs one to be on a whole new level and Mael reached that level by his own and got that power which no one else was able to get so.

I also think it’s odd. Unless Jenna and zanelis magic maybe. There is the argument that there main opponents were the dc so ark and what not super effective but that still feels a bit weak an excuse if they do have it. I have no idea why they wouldn’t. Oh and it was quite heavily implied that Eli taught gloxinia and dolor the time spell they used on Diane and king which was a much stronger version of the one zaratras used to look into Mel’s memories with Eli. Purge. And the Druid arsenal are all gc magic.

I can certainly understand the praise for maels efforts to reach his level from where he started, but the bulk of what you’ve stated, I believe is not presented by the narrative. If I’m not mistaken, sun is what makes mael the strongest of the AA. I don’t believe the story completely supports the notion that mael surpasses ludo without sun. You had ludos statement, you had maels statement, you had maels pl with the commandments to show the potential disparity between mael and his brother. We don’t know the circumstances surrounding the graces origin or bestowment, I mean, their distributer has yet to even grace us with her face. She has said nothing. So how can we validate this notion of worthiness? It’s possible but my prior statement still stands: we have been given more to suggest that mael did not reach that “another level” on his own.

Praise be where praise is due but accomplishments should not be inflated.

Sorry if I’m a buzzkill

 

[Samael Morningstar]

I also think it’s odd. Unless Jenna and zanelis magic maybe. There is the argument that there main opponents were the dc so ark and what not super effective but that still feels a bit weak an excuse if they do have it. I have no idea why they wouldn’t. Oh and it was quite heavily implied that Eli taught gloxinia and dolor the time spell they used on Diane and king which was a much stronger version of the one zaratras used to look into Mel’s memories with Eli. Purge. And the Druid arsenal are all gc magic.

I can certainly understand the praise for maels efforts to reach his level from where he started, but the bulk of what you’ve stated, I believe is not presented by the narrative. If I’m not mistaken, sun is what makes mael the strongest of the AA. I don’t believe the story completely supports the notion that mael surpasses ludo without sun. You had ludos statement, you had maels statement, you had maels pl with the commandments to show the potential disparity between mael and his brother. We don’t know the circumstances surrounding the graces origin or bestowment, I mean, their distributer has yet to even grace us with her face. She has said nothing. So how can we validate this notion of worthiness? It’s possible but my prior statement still stands: we have been given more to suggest that mael did not reach that “another level” on his own.

Praise be where praise is due but accomplishments should not be inflated.

Sorry if I’m a buzzkill

I didn't mean that type of small scale magic I meant like King has disaster, zeldris had ON, meliodas has a destroyer magic, DK has ruler, ban has snatch just like that why don't the goddess have one

 

[T25]

Not sure what you mean by arrogant, or who you mean. Me? Mael's the Strongest? Mael himself? Escanor? And arrogant in what respect?
As for the understanding of a character, I imagine it varies from person to person. The only person with an actual understanding would be Nakaba.

Not you. Mael is the strongest pride in marks power. Nobody would understand the character more than the author. But we have a basic understanding that “sun” was given to mael and is someone else’s power. What was given can be taken away. That is the gist of what I was alluding to.

Yeah, I'd say you're misguided, first and foremost about the reason for Mael's praise. No one was praising Mael for the method he used to acquire strength(until you mentioned it wasn't his own), they were praising the fact that he was strong, period. Strength itself was the reason for praise, the fact that he got it from someone else was irrelevant, because he has it now.

Secondly, you seem to be arguing under the presumption that Mael the Strongest view's Elizabeth's strength on par with Mael's which I think clearly isn't the case. Now the case could be made that Elizabeth is on par with Mael, but that's not what you're arguing about is it? The case you're making is that it's unreasonable to praise Mael over Elizabeth, with the underlying presumption that they're equal, but you have yet to convince anyone of this.

Thirdly, yes, depending on the circumstances one person with assistance producing a high quality product may be more worthy of praise than the one person doing it alone. For example, If the person doing it alone(Elizabeth) was working with gold, while the person with assistance(Mael) was working with iron but got given platinum to mix in with it, then the person with assistance being praised for creating a superior product is reasonable.

Finally, for my view on how someone should be praised for acquiring strength, it's about the effort put in. Neither being born talented or being given strength are worthy of praise in the context of acquiring power, both are unearned. However Mael gets the benefit of the doubt over Elizabeth because we were told he worked hard to grow strong, and was given the grace as a reward, while we have yet to be told anything about Elizabeth's effort to grow.

I would like to think that I was not actually misguided in what was being praised of mael. I am well aware that he is being praised for his strength. It is why, if you noticed, I had repeatedly used the word “degree” and the word “quality” in my analogy. I was indicating the extent of his strength. You are well aware of how I brought up that sun wasn’t his. So you should also know the post I responded to was mael is the strongest stating that while everyone is waiting for their characters power ups, mael already has it “in his store.” I believe that the fact that sun isn’t his power is very important to this as I said before what was given can be taken away. So is it truly in his store if he is not ultimately it’s master and true owner? So no, I don’t think my bringing up his methods was irrelevant either. Unless mael is the strongest wasn’t referring to sun at all. What do you think?

As for the second point, I believe I see what your saying. This time, you had mael is the strongest implicating Eli. To say that mael was capable and so got a bestowment instead of eli, labeling her a damsel in distress, the question naturally is “what are you saying/insinuating?” By having him validate my thought that he was talking about power, the thing he praises mael for, I would question why he would praise mael but relegate eli given the circumstances and narrative. I was not under the presumption that mael is the strongest believes Eli is of parity with mael as his response to me in that regard makes it clear as day (not to mention post history) Making an argument for why Eli is of parity with mael was not my purpose; rather, I used it as a fact of comparison validated by the narratives implication and dialogue regardless of wether he accepted it or not. My focus was on the nature of maels power not to make an analytical case for why Eli is of parity with mael. So I can see why I’d fail to convince anyone of this comparison.

Certainly

That I can understand. However, when speaking of the intrinsic nature of the extent of the power rather than it’s acquisition, can mael rightfully be lauded as stronger than someone who is only weaker than him because of the effect of sun? Now of course there are different capacities to present arguments for: mael of sun, mael of the four AA, mael with four commandments, estarossa etc but what of mael, the “true” Mael? Well that’s mael without sun no? It is definitely true that from what we’ve seen mael put in work. Undeniably so. But, if all that work mael put in was not enough to reach Eli’s extent of power, effort or no, could mael rightfully be praised as being more powerful than her after the fact when he is in possession of sun while at the same time mocking Eli for being weaker?

(You know, it took me over an hour to write this more or less just to see it deleted when I woke up because I didn’t see the moderator post while typing it. Rubs me the wrong)

--- Double Post Merged, May 17, 2019, Original Post Date: May 17, 2019 ---

I didn't mean that type of small scale magic I meant like King has disaster, zeldris had ON, meliodas has a destroyer magic, DK has ruler, ban has snatch just like that why don't the goddess have one

I didn’t though. Unless they don’t have any, I don’t know why they haven’t been shown using innate magic either.

 

[Seven777]

Not you. Mael is the strongest pride in marks power. Nobody would understand the character more than the author. But we have a basic understanding that “sun” was given to mael and is someone else’s power. What was given can be taken away. That is the gist of what I was alluding to.



I would like to think that I was not actually misguided in what was being praised of mael. I am well aware that he is being praised for his strength. It is why, if you noticed, I had repeatedly used the word “degree” and the word “quality” in my analogy. I was indicating the extent of his strength. You are well aware of how I brought up that sun wasn’t his. So you should also know the post I responded to was mael is the strongest stating that while everyone is waiting for their characters power ups, mael already has it “in his store.” I believe that the fact that sun isn’t his power is very important to this as I said before what was given can be taken away. So is it truly in his store if he is not ultimately it’s master and true owner? So no, I don’t think my bringing up his methods was irrelevant either. Unless mael is the strongest wasn’t referring to sun at all. What do you think?

As for the second point, I believe I see what your saying. This time, you had mael is the strongest implicating Eli. To say that mael was capable and so got a bestowment instead of eli, labeling her a damsel in distress, the question naturally is “what are you saying/insinuating?” By having him validate my thought that he was talking about power, the thing he praises mael for, I would question why he would praise mael but relegate eli given the circumstances and narrative. I was not under the presumption that mael is the strongest believes Eli is of parity with mael as his response to me in that regard makes it clear as day (not to mention post history) Making an argument for why Eli is of parity with mael was not my purpose; rather, I used it as a fact of comparison validated by the narratives implication and dialogue regardless of wether he accepted it or not. My focus was on the nature of maels power not to make an analytical case for why Eli is of parity with mael. So I can see why I’d fail to convince anyone of this comparison.

Certainly

That I can understand. However, when speaking of the intrinsic nature of the extent of the power rather than it’s acquisition, can mael rightfully be lauded as stronger than someone who is only weaker than him because of the effect of sun? Now of course there are different capacities to present arguments for: mael of sun, mael of the four AA, mael with four commandments, estarossa etc but what of mael, the “true” Mael? Well that’s mael without sun no? It is definitely true that from what we’ve seen mael put in work. Undeniably so. But, if all that work mael put in was not enough to reach Eli’s extent of power, effort or no, could mael rightfully be praised as being more powerful than her after the fact when he is in possession of sun while at the same time mocking Eli for being weaker?

(You know, it took me over an hour to write this more or less just to see it deleted when I woke up because I didn’t see the moderator post while typing it. Rubs me the wrong)

I agree that Mael's the Strongest may be wrong about Mael's power up being secured in the manga, but was this the point you were trying to make when you made your reply? Or were you pointing it out to imply that the power not being his own makes it less impressive? If its the former then we have no issue, if it was the latter we have an issue.

That sums it up nicely

Yes, at least in my view, because he has the power now. It's like asking me earlier in the arc if Escanor can be considered stronger than Gilthunder. The fact that Escanor was actually fodder never really bothered anyone, because the reality of that time was that he was strong. The same is true for Mael right now, until he eventually surrenders his grace to Escanor. With that said, I support praising Mael over other characters, but I don't think it's necessary to mock the supposed lesser character, but I'm pretty sure MtS is only shitting on Eli now because he perceived you mentioning Sun isn't Mael's power as a slight against him(just guessing, i dont speak for him), which is what it looked like to me too(though I enjoyed the reply).

I appreciate the effort.

 

[Samael Morningstar]

I agree that Mael's the Strongest may be wrong about Mael's power up being secured in the manga, but was this the point you were trying to make when you made your reply? Or were you pointing it out to imply that the power not being his own makes it less impressive? If its the former then we have no issue, if it was the latter we have an issue.

That sums it up nicely

Yes, at least in my view, because he has the power now. It's like asking me earlier in the arc if Escanor can be considered stronger than Gilthunder. The fact that Escanor was actually fodder never really bothered anyone, because the reality of that time was that he was strong. The same is true for Mael right now, until he eventually surrenders his grace to Escanor. With that said, I support praising Mael over other characters, but I don't think it's necessary to mock the supposed lesser character, but I'm pretty sure MtS is only shitting on Eli now because he perceived you mentioning Sun isn't Mael's power as a slight against him(just guessing, i dont speak for him), which is what it looked like to me too(though I enjoyed the reply).

I appreciate the effort.

Thanks for supporting me brother.
Yeah I was mocked on his saying sun isn't his power and to be honest from the very beginning what I said that other fanboys need depend on nakaba for showing their characters power but in case of mael I already know what he has that is one mode.
I never meant any offense to anyone in this I plainly said that Mael has one mode that's why I don't need to worry what power would he be having and other characters like Elizabeth was not shown what power she has and her fanboys need to wait for the Author for that that's it. But some people took it offensively and started on me so I didn't also hold back.