Characters and abilities with unknown Nen categories

[Uriel]

I agree with NFW, except I think that Novu IS materialization. Because the focus here is the Mansion itself, which is nowhere and everywhere. As a Nen Space I think it's the main focus of the technique.

And I think it's Feitan who says that He transforms pain into damage :O

 

[Sea Hunter]

For Feitan,we saw he got really pissed off when he decided to use his pain cracker, afterwords he said "if you had damaged me more you would have died a less painful death", this could be interpreted as:

1. The more pain he takes the more powerful his ability is.
2. the more pissed off he is the stronger aura he uses thus the more powerful the ability becomes.

Any of the 2 can be right based on what we've seen.

As for Bomber, if Sabu and Bara are needed for every ascpect of "Count Down" how come Gensuru can place it on a target while the other 2 aren't around and they don't even know he's using it? nope we haven't seen anything in the manga indicating someone can lend his aura to another to use it as he wants, so i'm still with my original opinion that Sabu and Bara's use is only for "Release".

 

[MegamanX195]

Yeah, agreed.

Most importantly, though, Abengane didn't say "It's impossible to be that damn good at Emission, Manipulation and Materialization! He must be a God or something!" he said "That guy has a level of Nen that allows him to use in a sophisticated way Emission, Manipulation and Materialization. That added to his physical agility... even if we all were to go after him, we would be taken down by that "Little Flower" of his." That was all to show the reader how good, skilled and outright dangerous Genthru was. In hindsight, anyone would have simply thought "...wait. He was not that good! Those 2 companions of his helped too! Haha!"

Also, they had deduced he had companions. If it was so easy to have a "shared ability" like that, Abengane (or someone) surely would have mentioned something along the lines of "It's probably it's, on the very least, a 3 man group. An Emission user, a Manipulation user, and Genthru himself being the Materialization user, proved by the fact that he was the one who clearly materialized the bombs." , but nothing of the sort was even hinted at. Actually, never was someone, somehow, capable of somehow influencing someone else's ability simply by "existing". Does it mean that if Sabu or Bara had been killed the ability simply "wouldn't work", because Sabu or Bara's Nen was adding to Genthru's ability because they "exist"? What if Sabu or Bara were sleeping, or KO'ed, or out of aura? It just... doesn't add up.

And on the Emission/Materialization issue, let's take a different approach. What if a Materialization user tried to materialize a clone? The clone would HAVE to be better in some way. Wing didn't mention that "materializing creatures is stupid." or anything like that, so it's supposedly a valid idea. Would the Materialiation user be able to create a "better" clone, that's stuck to his body?

Applying that in a more general case, it would mean that materializing creatures in general is the worst idea ever, and nothing of the sort was indicated or hinted at. Either keeping materialized creatures around requires a very weak Emission (doesn't make much sense to me), or it doesn't require Emission at all (this is what I think is the case). Emphasis on creatures. Obviously mantaining materialized objects away from you requires Emission, that was stated multiple times.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I also don't think Gido used any Emission to keep his tops spinning. IMO, that was solely Manipulation. For the same reason I think Kastro's clone didn't require Emission: it wasn't mentioned. Wing mentioned Kastro's attack (forgot the name) was very strong, proving he was an Enhancer. If he used Emission to keep the clone, Wing could have said "That's further reinforced by the fact that Kastro was also quite skilled at Emission to keep his clone existing, and, since it's next to Enhancement, it's clear he is an Enhancer."

Same thing for Gido: "The same is the case for Gido: His Emission was quite good to be able to keep his aura at the range of so many tops, even if they were small. That also serves to prove he's definitely an Enhancer." After all, Gido could not even have been an Enhancer: for all we know, he could have been manipulating his body's muscles/bones to make it easier to spin or something, like the guy from the mafia who manipulates hair. It would also serve well for the reader and Gon/Killua, who were noobs: the more examples of various types there was, the better it would be to help them (and us) understanding. Incidentally, Emission (alongside Transformation and Specialization) was one of the few types not mentioned, so it would have helped Gon and Killua to understand Hatsu better to say when it was used if it really was the case.

 

[Hunter2323]

Spoiler

For Feitan,we saw he got really pissed off when he decided to use his pain cracker, afterwords he said "if you had damaged me more you would have died a less painful death", this could be interpreted as:

1. The more pain he takes the more powerful his ability is.
2. the more pissed off he is the stronger aura he uses thus the more powerful the ability becomes.

Any of the 2 can be right based on what we've seen.

As for Bomber, if Sabu and Bara are needed for every ascpect of "Count Down" how come Gensuru can place it on a target while the other 2 aren't around and they don't even know he's using it? nope we haven't seen anything in the manga indicating someone can lend his aura to another to use it as he wants, so i'm still with my original opinion that Sabu and Bara's use is only for "Release".

For Feitang, after saying that the heat this time was weak, he said, "You get what you give." Therefore the first conclusion of his ability is the only one that makes sense. It also fits in with his personality, being a torture addict and sadist (torturing the auction director, torturing Owl, reading a Trevor Brown book).

There isn't much point in discussing Gensuru as it seems no one is willing to change their mind, but this point needs to be addressed. Combining aura is absolutely 100% possible. Greed Island is all about people putting their aura together to work towards one common goal. Razor stated he handles the majority of Emission tasks, so he is obviously working in conjunction with the others to keep Greed Island functioning. We don't need anyone to directly state they are lending aura because if you can't put aura together, Greed Island is not possible. Knuckles is another example. His entire ability is based on lending aura to someone else.
So, if you believe that Bomber isn't a 3 man team, that's your choice. However, the claim it can't be a 3 man team because nen can't be combined is not true.

Spoiler

Yeah, agreed.

Most importantly, though, Abengane didn't say "It's impossible to be that damn good at Emission, Manipulation and Materialization! He must be a God or something!" he said "That guy has a level of Nen that allows him to use in a sophisticated way Emission, Manipulation and Materialization. That added to his physical agility... even if we all were to go after him, we would be taken down by that "Little Flower" of his." That was all to show the reader how good, skilled and outright dangerous Genthru was. In hindsight, anyone would have simply thought "...wait. He was not that good! Those 2 companions of his helped too! Haha!"

Also, they had deduced he had companions. If it was so easy to have a "shared ability" like that, Abengane (or someone) surely would have mentioned something along the lines of "It's probably it's, on the very least, a 3 man group. An Emission user, a Manipulation user, and Genthru himself being the Materialization user, proved by the fact that he was the one who clearly materialized the bombs." , but nothing of the sort was even hinted at. Actually, never was someone, somehow, capable of somehow influencing someone else's ability simply by "existing". Does it mean that if Sabu or Bara had been killed the ability simply "wouldn't work", because Sabu or Bara's Nen was adding to Genthru's ability because they "exist"? What if Sabu or Bara were sleeping, or KO'ed, or out of aura? It just... doesn't add up.

And on the Emission/Materialization issue, let's take a different approach. What if a Materialization user tried to materialize a clone? The clone would HAVE to be better in some way. Wing didn't mention that "materializing creatures is stupid." or anything like that, so it's supposedly a valid idea. Would the Materialiation user be able to create a "better" clone, that's stuck to his body?

Applying that in a more general case, it would mean that materializing creatures in general is the worst idea ever, and nothing of the sort was indicated or hinted at. Either keeping materialized creatures around requires a very weak Emission (doesn't make much sense to me), or it doesn't require Emission at all (this is what I think is the case). Emphasis on creatures. Obviously mantaining materialized objects away from you requires Emission, that was stated multiple times.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I also don't think Gido used any Emission to keep his tops spinning. IMO, that was solely Manipulation. For the same reason I think Kastro's clone didn't require Emission: it wasn't mentioned. Wing mentioned Kastro's attack (forgot the name) was very strong, proving he was an Enhancer. If he used Emission to keep the clone, Wing could have said "That's further reinforced by the fact that Kastro was also quite skilled at Emission to keep his clone existing, and, since it's next to Enhancement, it's clear he is an Enhancer."

Same thing for Gido: "The same is the case for Gido: His Emission was quite good to be able to keep his aura at the range of so many tops, even if they were small. That also serves to prove he's definitely an Enhancer." After all, Gido could not even have been an Enhancer: for all we know, he could have been manipulating his body's muscles/bones to make it easier to spin or something, like the guy from the mafia who manipulates hair. It would also serve well for the reader and Gon/Killua, who were noobs: the more examples of various types there was, the better it would be to help them (and us) understanding. Incidentally, Emission (and Specialization) was the only one not mentioned, so it would have helped Gon and Killua to understand it better to say when it was used if it really was the case.

You say materializing a beast is the worst idea. From everything shown about nen, it is a terrible idea. It requires contradictory nen types.

If a Materialization user chooses to materialize a clone, why must it be better than what Kastro had? Just because an object is materialized, does not mean it is not still made of nen. Kurapika's statements prove this (as he said Emission is required for Judgment Chain). What does it matter if the thing materialized is a beast or object? It is still nen and to be separated from the body requires Emission. Why would there be a difference in not needing nen to materialize a beast or an object? If materializing a beast requires no Emission, all Materialization users should do this as it bypasses their biggest weakness.

We don't know what Guido's type is, but it can be deduced. We can conclude that he had to use Enhancement, Emission, and Manipulation for his hatsu. He enhanced his own spinning, his tops' spinning, and the tops' durability. He used Emission when the tops separated from his body and circled around the fighting ring on their own. He used Manipulation by giving them the command push back whatever is in their way. Obviously his Manipulation was not very strong as the tops lost their commands after leaving the ring. Therefore, because he had weak Manipulation, but strong (relatively speaking) Enhancement, and decent Emission, it is pretty safe to conclude he was Enhancement. Guido was weak, he himself admitted this (and we also know he was nen-baptized).

Wing (someone we know was a poor student - from Biske and forgetful - from Zushi) not saying Kastro's cloned required Emission is not proof that Emission was not used. It was never stated Razor used Manipulation, but for his devils to function at all, it would be required. Emission shouldn't need to be explained. It is 100% self explanatory. When aura is not connected to the body, emission is necessary. Hisoka versus Kastro is a good example.

Hisoka's bungee gum aura detaches from his body (connected to Kastro and his arm, connected to Kastro and his cards). Hisoka uses some Manipulation to make the gum contract; he uses some Emission keep the aura active while detached from his body; he uses Enhancement to make the cards stronger/more durable. Finally, he uses Transformation to make the aura have the properties of elasticity and stickiness. It is a great example of multiple schools being used for a single technique and how you can reverse engineer what a character's aura category is.

 

[NoFreakingWay]

I don't know what you guys are currently talking about, but let me post some pretty late replies.

Why is Novu's Hide and Seek an Emission ability and not a Materialization one?

Spoiler

Let's compare the technique with one that I consider a vastly weaker, more basic version of Hide and Seek.

Please turn to Ch157 pp5-7. The ability shown there is the Emission Boxer guy's ability.

Now let's compare it to Novu's: Ch246 pp5-8.

What are the elements that are similar in both?

1. Both are concerned with instantaneous transportation. The Devil's ability instantly transfers a part of his body in the area marked by Nen-writings. Novu's transfer all of him through a very wide area, marked by waypoints.

2. Both abilities are supported by Nen-writings. Devil's Nen-writings enhanced his Nen, basically enabling him to transfer a body part instantaneously (Ch160 p11). Novu's waypoints were kept open by the same procedure (Ch251 pp2-3).

3. Both abilities play around with a space that is differentiated from "reality". Devil's arm seemingly travels through nothingness, only to pop out somewhere in the area with Nen-writings. Novu's entire mansion exists somewhere that is just not inside the real world.

Using this comparison, we can see something that we could would be how Hide-and-Seek was developed:

1. In the beginning, Novu probably had a similar ability to the Devil Emission Boxer. It was probably enough to teleport a part of the body. At this stage, there is little interaction between Novu and the space outside the real world.

2. Novu obviously didn't focus on instantaneous teleportation, and instead focused on travel between vast tracts of land. He achieved this using waypoints. Interaction with the space outside the real world increased to the point where he could probably make bigger objects - like his own body - pass through waypoint A to B.

3. Novu has enough Nen to maintain Emitted objects within the space outside the real world - thus he has come up with the mansion. Around the same time he had come up with the Key. Later on, he could just add some mechanics with the portals.

Now, if Hide-And-Seek was Materialization, some problems would arise:

1. The waypoints are maintained using Nen-writings. Though Nen-writings enhance Nen, how much time would you have to spend on Nen-writing to make the waypoint stand for an indefinite period of time? Novu clearly did not invest a lot of time on the waypoint he created.

2. Interaction with 'the space beyond the real world'. See, if Hide-and-Seek was Materialized, it should have just appeared somewhere in the real world. Materialization is about bringing things from a personal mental space - the user's imagination - to the real world. Now we know Hide-and-Seek doesn't do that. Hide-and-Seek exists in a space that is not the real world, and it's very likely not the user's mental space we're looking at. This space is a public space, it's just outside the real world - most likely this is the space where Devil Boxer's arm goes to before resurfacing to reality. It's not about "creating a black hole" and then creating a mansion. The space is already there - Novu just has to have some access to it, and then create his mansion in it. And the access to that space: how do you Materialize something in a space you don't have physical access to? If somehow you get to Materialize your mansion in that public-beyond-reality-space, how do you maintain it? We see no Nen-writing on the walls of the mansion to enhance nen that would help maintain it. Nor are we treated to a some strong restriction that makes it stay there. It would certainly need Emission to be maintained - and lots of it; there's a lot of distance between it and Novu, and the mansion isn't tied to Novu like how the chains are tied to Kurapika.

With Emission, things are easier to explain. Emitters meddle with that public-beyond-reality-space more often than people from other Hatsu types. Emitters are all about travel, transport, and it's not a big deal for them to maintain something from afar, as far as their Aura and mastery allows it. Just notice how easy it is for an Emission user to tap into that space. The Devil Boxer, by replacing active training with just scribbling Nen-writings on the canvas, tapped into it. In Ch251 p8-9, Novu accessed the mansion with simple clap, wave and closing gestures producing a lace of Nen linking both hands - nothing remotely Materialized there, but it certainly is reminiscent to how the Boxer teleported his fist.

Now, to compare the ability with actual Materialization abilities that involve a "space", we'll compare Hide-and-Seek with Fun Fun Cloth and Deme-chan.

1. FFC and Deme-chan are actual items that get Materialized to the real world. We see that the "point of the ability" or the "intent of the user" was the creation of an "item" rather than the "effect of the item" which is "a space other than the real world". The items came before the space, and this is important, since it allows us to understand how the ability was developed.

2. FFC and Deme-Chan had the "space" inside them, while for Hide-and-Seek it was obvious that you had to go to the "space beyond the real world" first to get that mansion in there.

3. FFC and Deme-Chan doesn't have anything to do with distance. Both are almost always very near the user (gripped in the hands). Deme-chan, though it may possible suck an unlimited number of items in it, doesn't care where these items end up, except for the latest one.

So it's not impossible for a Materialization user to dabble with "the space beyond the real world", as long as the "point" of the ability doesn't lean towards the domain of Emission-based nen-space abilities. In fact the next ability I'm going to compare Hide-and-Seek to is a Materialization ability that dabble with a space the user himself can get into: Zitoh's Savannah.

Savannah doesn't involve itself with distance as much as Hide-and-Seek does. The ability forces the user to be inside it, and thus, also forcing the user to be near it. Though the interior of Savannah is huge, the Materialized things inside it are so basic (what, some grass and a couple of trees?), they're conceivably pretty easy to Materialize by themselves in the basic image training method. The only thing that looks out of place in there is the giant hourglass, but it's still no biggie.

---

Goreinu

Spoiler

If Goreinu's Gorillas were Materialization, it would have turned into a bloody mess when Reiza hit here (Ch162 p8). The Ryodan clones were still a bloody mess anyways when they were found out, and no one objects that they're Materialized. But as seen in the picture the White Gorilla just shattered into energy.

Therefore, when Goreinu got hit by Reiza (Ch164 p3-5) and when it was mentioned that he won't be able to create the Gorillas again, it just meant that it affected his will (Ch148 p2) enough that he can't maintain the gorillas' shape anytime soon.

Reiza hit Goreinu so hard Goreinu's balls shrank.

---

Netero

Spoiler

Doesn't really matter if Netero was a Reinforcer, Kannon is mostly likely Emitted, and Zero surely was Emitted. You don't create a statue by Reinforcing your aura. You either Emit one, or Materialize one. If he was a Reinforcer, it just shows how headstrong he is - trying to master something he can't take to the max. So he just makes up for it by building on his Aura amount.

---

Bonorenolf

Spoiler

For Bonorenolf: Ch225 5-9, Ch227 1-4

For Emission let's compare the ability to two abilities: Kannon and Double Machinegun.

1. Kannon was just there to deal blunt force damage. It wasn't doing anything really special. Same with the masked spearman Bono called forth (hell maybe it was doing stabbing damage, it had a spear, duh). And Jupiter.

2. Double Machinegun was forever strengthened by self-mutilation, which, in turn, was driven by some motivation. In Bono's case however it just allowed him to give varying power-ups to the things he makes. The better he plays and dances the stronger damage he deals. Unless Franklin, chops up, say, both of his arms or does something more special I think that's the best Franklin could get as far as Mystery Points are concerned.

3. Jupiter was basically nothing but a big ball of Nen. If Franklin was able to fire one huge nen-bullet the same would happen to his target: it'd get crushed like an insect.

Problems against Emission: He should have no problem emitting the things he emits even without the melody.

-

For Transformation let's compare it to Pain Packer and Rising Sun.

1. Both abilities had to have 'something other than Nen' to strengthen their attack. Bono had to create a melody; Fei had to receive pain. When those things had better quality (epic melody, pain from mortal wounds), better Nen-things resulted.

2. The two aforementioned things also functioned as requirements to make the abilities go off: Without a melody Bono probably wouldn't create the things he created (Bono pointed out to his Chimera opponent that "you can at least prevent my performance in Ch227 p1" meaning if you stop the dance he can't pull stuff off); without pain Fei probably couldn't use Pain Packer.

3. Ch225 p8 clearly says in my copy "Transform the Melody into Battle Power". Same happened with Pain Packer - my copy says "Change into Scorching Heat" in Ch229 p5. Both mention the two aforementioned things - things that are not Nen - transform or change into Nen.

4. The spearman, Jupiter, and Rising Sun were thrown some feet away from their respective users; not far enough to be a problem for Transformation users (Zeno didn't have trouble with his Dragons, and I think of him as a Transformation user).

5. Bottomline: Both abilities (Le Batte Cantabile, Pain Packer) were basically just 'Primary' abilities that transformed 'Requirements' into Nen-based 'Secondary' abilities:

Requirement Primary Secondary

Bono Melody Le Batte Cantabile Spearman, Jupiter

Fei Pain Pain Packer Rising Sun

Problems against Transformation: Nothing much really. Well, the problem is with appearance. Transformation users don't have issues tapping into Materialization for some of their stuff. We have Hisoka's Deceitful Texture, and Biscuit's Masseuse. So while Bono's stuff may have been produced with Materialization, they won't even be there if it weren't for the Transformation ability Le Batte Cantabile, and it just kind of strengthens the thinking that Bono is a Transformation user.

-

For Materialization: Kastro's Doppelganger

1. Both looks Materialized.

2. Both did nothing much but deal damage, except Doppelganger can copy Kastro's moves and Bono's things just did their own (blunt force damage) thing.

Problems against Materialization: Bono had to create a melody first before Materializing the things (if they were Materialized). It basically goes against the natural trait for Materialized things: they can be put away and summoned anytime the user wants. The restriction normally shouldn't get in the way of Bono Materializing things. Bono should be easily able to Materialize anything he has had the image training to Materialize, and then power them up with the melody as they exist. In short - his 'restriction' is pretty much contradictory to the nature of Materialized things. However, Hisoka's Deceitful Texture, which I considered a Materialization ability, has one restriction: it only works on thin surfaces like paper and cloth. It basically renders the abiity unusable unless you meet this damned restriction. So there is one other thing that is going on for Materialization.

I was going to say something about how the things looked like. Originally I thought Materialized things looked best (had the sharpest details, like Doppelganger or the Ryodan corpses), next is Emission (Knuckle clones, Kannon, Razor's Devils), and last would be Transformation (Zeno's Dragon, Rising Sun lol), but it turns out to be pretty nebulous.

I originally leaned towards Emission but now it seems I have talked myself into thinking this is really from Transformation. It didn't have much trouble aligning with Rising Sun, now that I've analyzed it much deeper.

So yeah, take your time reading all of that guys. I'll read all of the earlier posts too.

 

[Fox666]

If Goreinu's Gorillas were Materialization, it would have turned into a bloody mess when Reiza hit here (Ch162 p8). The Ryodan clones were still a bloody mess anyways when they were found out, and no one objects that they're Materialized. But as seen in the picture the White Gorilla just shattered into energy.

I hardly believe on that. I don't remember it being mentioned that entities materialized by Nem are supposed to be identical to living beings, and that may be something special about Kortopi ability.

I think you are making some confusion about Materialization and Emission, dealing as if they are mostly the same thing. I am not completely sure, but I think Materialization means "construction" while emission is closer to "movement".

Either way, I think it's obvious that Netero's ability is materialization.

 

[NoFreakingWay]

I hardly believe on that. I don't remember it being mentioned that entities materialized by Nem are supposed to be identical to living beings, and that may be something special about Kortopi ability.

I think you are making some confusion about Materialization and Emission, dealing as if they are mostly the same thing. I am not completely sure, but I think Materialization means "construction" while emission is closer to "movement".

Either way, I think it's obvious that Netero's ability is materialization.

Then look at the pic. Why would any Materialized item act different? They're just real items with added features. If you Materialized a Kuroro clone you can chop the clone into pieces and it'll look bloody.

How can I be confused with Materialization and Emission when I took a long time trying to sort them out? Emitted creatures, when chopped up, doesn't have organs, but you'll see them dissipating into shards of energy just like the White Gorilla did. Materialized creatures like the Ryodan clones on the other hand, will look like chopped up pieces of meat.

So please, read the post again. I know it's a fricking wall, but I took some time creating it to be told I confuse stuff. Thanks.

 

[MegamanX195]

I don't remember if it was Biske or Razor that said this, but it was stated that Goreinu's gorilla damage reflected what would have happened if Goreinu himself got hit. Razor's emitted clones certainly are vastly weaker than Razor himself, and Goreinu's gorillas are apparently on the very least comparable to himself. Kastro's clone certainly is as strong as himself, much like Goreinu's gorillas. This is somewhat a substantial argument, just wanted to point out the similarity.

Koltopi's ability is a very special one, being capable of even cloning Nen-created objects, I don't think that really is a good argument. As far as we know, Kastro's clone would "vanish in energy" if destroyed too. It certainly seemed so with the way it vanished and materialized.

Also, something still hasn't been adressed. "When" can a Nen-creature exist even if its summoner has been KO'ed? Razor certainly implied it wasn't "obvious" that Nen-creatures vanish when their "owner" is KO'ed, meaning it's possible or not, nor did he comment that "it's just like his". If anything, that implies both are different. Does the Nen-user simply decide "OK, this one is going to be a independent creature" when creating the ability? I think that Razor (and other Emission users) use Manipulation to give their creatures an order upon summoning, meaning that even if they get KO'ed they continue existing. Materialized creatures must be directly controlled all the time, which means, directly Manipulated all the time.

 

[Fox666]

Then look at the pic. Why would any Materialized item act different? They're just real items with added features. If you Materialized a Kuroro clone you can chop the clone into pieces and it'll look bloody.

How can I be confused with Materialization and Emission when I took a long time trying to sort them out? Emitted creatures, when chopped up, doesn't have organs, but you'll see them dissipating into shards of energy just like the White Gorilla did. Materialized creatures like the Ryodan clones on the other hand, will look like chopped up pieces of meat.

So please, read the post again. I know it's a fricking wall, but I took some time creating it to be told I confuse stuff. Thanks.

Like I said, I am not sure of anything. But my point is that Kortopi ability is the only instance we have seen, and it is not at his will, but rather a result of his ability to mimic things. So I don't really expect that all materializations of a creature that is similar to a living thing to have internal organs.

Also, something still hasn't been adressed. "When" can a Nen-creature exist even if its summoner has been KO'ed? Razor certainly implied it wasn't "obvious" that Nen-creatures vanish when their "owner" is KO'ed, meaning it's possible or not, nor did he comment that "it's just like his". If anything, that implies both are different. Does the Nen-user simply decide "OK, this one is going to be a independent creature" when creating the ability? I think that Razor (and other Emission users) use Manipulation to give their creatures an order upon summoning, meaning that even if they get KO'ed they continue existing. Materialized creatures must be directly controlled all the time, which means, directly Manipulated all the time.

You probably are getting somewhere. Nem users are not supposed to use strictly only one style, but to focus on what he is better at. So we should expect styles to be used in conjuction with others.

 

[Hunter2323]

http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/76725-Evolution-of-power-hexagram

For help: 强化=enhancement, 变化=transformation, 放出=emission, 操作=manipulation, 具現=materialization, 特(?)=specialization

NFW, nice points, and good arguments. However, Togashi gave Netero's and Novu's nen types. Check the above link for them. The second spoiler tag's second picture has Novu listed as Materialization. The second spoiler tag's first picture has Gensuru's type listed as Materialization as well. Novu uses the nen writing to maintain the portal as opposed to the ones he instantly uses which disappear immediately after someone enters through one. The portal that used nen writing also disappeared as soon as people came through them. He had to use the nen writing to sustain the portals he didn't immediately use.

I originally thought Novu was Emission as well; many people did. However, the author said otherwise. This really just opens up the possibilities for Materialization. We know his mansion exists in some unknown nen space, but the mansion is a real, materialized house.

For Netero, check the link's second spoiler tag, fourth picture. Netero is listed as Enhancement, which makes sense as his ability uses so many different types, so if he didn't have the balance of Enhancement, who knows if he could have created this ability. I agree with you that his "Zero" was definitely an Emission ability. His statue was also most likely Materialized as well. This just shows that Enhancement gives you the most balance and flexibility (which is why I think Kastro's double would only really be possible coming from an Enhancement user).

For Goreinu, I agree 100%. The gorillas are definitely emitted. You bring up a good point in how the White Gorilla was destroyed is very similar to how Tochino's (Nostrade body guard) "Black Balloon Children" were destroyed by Franklin's machine gun. The nen creatures just dispersed.

For Bono, I agree that needing to play a song goes against Materialization's nature. But this restriction is also what makes it so strong. He can't materialize anything before playing a song which would definitely increase his ability. He materialized the armor (actual armor), so he has to have strong Materialization (puts him as either Mat or Trans). For Jupiter, it seems to be a bit unclear. You believe it was a giant nen ball. I believe it was just a giant rock/miniature moon. If it's a nen ball, he is definitely Transformation. If it is real, he is Materialization. We'll just have to wait for him to fight again.

For Feitang, he materialized clothes. This most likely guarantees him to be either Mat, Trans, or Enh. Next, he transformed his aura into intense heat. Afterwards he stated the heat was weak and didn't last long. He then goes on to say it would have lasted longer if Zazan had damaged him more. Tsezugera was shocked by Killua giving his aura electricity, stating he would need years of electric torture. From what little we know of Feitang's ability, he has multiple types. So, did he also go through numerous years of different torture? Maybe. However, I think it is more logical to believe that he uses a fairly strong restriction, taking damage/pain (which also ties in with his sadist personality - Trevor Brown, Spider's Interrogator, threatening to take Gon's fingernails off, Nobunaga immediately thinking he was going to torture Gon).

So, he is definitely Transformation. However, he is not so much transforming pain as using how much pain he has received to power up his ability.

 

[NoFreakingWay]

Kannon is not Materialized. It's simply Emitted.

Spoiler

What are the problems that goes against Kannon being Materialized?

1. Materialized items almost always need to be image-trained. I put this one early because it's kind of a minor issue. Kannon doesn't seem to have went through any kind of image-training. Netero's alone in that mountain for around a decade, right? We already used Gallery Fake as an example of a Hatsu producing Materialized items that do not need to be image-trained. We can also say Zitoh's lame crossbow-claw (Ch248 p1) is Materialized, but I could also say this is just Emitted, since the main point of the crossbow is to launch projectiles. Anyway, if the crossbow is Materialized it does lend itself to the exceptions of how Materialized items can skip the image-training phase.

2. Materialized items have a problem of being "near-invulnerable". If Kannon is just a Materialized statue, what do you think would happen if it hit a severely durable object (Meryem) at a speed faster than that of sound? It would miserably break like a statue. It takes a lot for a Materialized objects to be near-invulnerable, as we have often mentioned Kurapika's master say, and it often involves rigid restrictions. Kannon, in its normal attacking mode, doesn't involve any kind of restriction to make it near-invulnerable. If there is, I surely haven't heard the manga mention any. Additionally, virtually-indestructible objects in the manga are things that do not hurt the opponent. Here are some examples:

Potclean (Ch276 pp2-3, Ch302 pp4-7)
Morau's Smoke Cage (Ch277 p14)
Morau's Smoke Leash (Ch247 p13)
Zitoh's Savannah Hourglass (Ch245 p9-10)

The first three examples are very likely Emitted objects. All of them do not hurt the opponent, or at least, do not directly hurt the opponent. The last example, the Hourglass, is most likely a Materialized item. But it shares the same quality the first three objects have - which is, they all don't directly hurt the opponent. Kannon directly hurts the opponent.

3. This is kind of forced, but Kannon dissipated in a way similar way to how Goreinu's White Gorilla and Potclean (Ch289 p12-13) did. Look at (Ch290 p14). It shows Meryem crushing Kannon, or at least, Kannon's hand. If Kannon was a statue, it would break like a statue. But it didn't. It dissipated into slivers of energy. It's kind of forced because it's not that obvious. They look like some sort of effect. But for Meryem to crush Kannon is quite easy for someone of his power.

---

Spoiler

When Reinforcement was mentioned to have the best balance of offense and defense, it didn't mean Reinforcement could have a balanced growth on all Hatsu types. Hisoka's explanation of Kastro's weakness makes that pretty clear. If that wasn't clear, it just meant those who choose to focus on an ability that is far from your innate Hatsu type on the Hatsu hexagon will result in a sucky Hatsu that is very unreliable when developed through pure training and not aided by restrictions. What that meant is Reinforcement has the best growth on the basic offensive and defensive Nen-apps. This means Reinforcement has the best Kou, Gyo, Shu, Ken, Ren, etc. because Reinforcement directly affects the offensive and defensive effectiveness of those apps. Reinforcement will definitely suck at Specialization, and will be definitely be weak at Materializing and Manipulating things, since they are too from it on the Hatsu hexagon. Kurapika's explanation about Emperor Time and his chains pretty much nails that. Biscuit's training program in GI also made sure Hatsu training focused on the innate Hatsu type and the two adjacent Hatsu types since those three Hatsu types are the ones the user will be able to maximize the most in a small amount of time. There isn't much focus on the distant Hatsu types and obviously none for the opposite Hatsu type.

---

@Megaman

Spoiler

Abengane was probably thinking Gensuru put a bunch of strong conditions on COuntdown that makes it possible for him to stick the bombs on a lot of people all by himself. That's the only way we could explain his line of thinking, because nothing will stop someone with enough willpower to stick enough dangerous conditions on one's Hatsu to make it as powerful as Countdown. But it was apparent Abengane didn't even consider he had allies, since no one showed up by the time Gensuru was explaining the details of his ability that would explain that Countdown realy involved 3 guys. What that meant for Abengane is that he had a good idea about the importance of restrictions for Hatsus. His own Nen-erasing ability has him seek the aid of the forest, or rather, forest spirits, before he can go on with the ritual (he had to go to a wooded area first and the fact is made quite obvious in Ch147 p7). If he put in additional restrictions, it he wouldn't have needed the forest spirits at all, but it would most likely be dangerous for him. The same for Kurapika. Why isn't Emperor Time and the whole chain thing a Team Hatsu? Because Kurapika put enough restrictions on the ability so that he himself would suffice. That is why Ubo was extremely confused as to how Kurapika was able to have a seemingly high Reinforcement score while he was definitely either a Manipulation or a Materialization user: because he was never used to placing restrictions on his abilities and relied on pure training. None of Gensuru's conditions were as harsh as Kurapika's. Why didn't Gon's Uber mode turn into some sort of Genki Dama that needed other peoples' strength? Because his oath was harsh enough for the deed he wants done.

It's entirely possible for Team Hatsus (ex. Countdown, Greed Island cards) to get activated without the members being physically present at the time the Hatsu needs to be activated. Otherwise the Greed Island cards would not work at all. It would be downright stupid for each GM to be present at every instance of card activation in the island. This is where Emission comes in. You need to maintain a link to the people that makes the things run. Emission does that for you. You don't need a nen-cable running all the way from the GI Gamemaster to the cards. You just have to have strong enough Emission laced with each and every card. For Countdown, the only guy that needs to be physically present is the guy who enables or triggers the bombs on, which is Gensuru. The bombs are his problem. The "maintenance-of-the-bombs-from-far-away" part is the problem of the Emission user. He's an Emission user, he does things from a distance, why does he have to be near the event? A solo Materialization Hatsu that needs Emission to keep tabs on the activation of the ability from far away works on a similar principle. The example would be Kurapika's chains. The chains stayed in Pakunoda's heart even when Kurapika was kilometers away from her already. But did the chains visibly stick out of her chest leading to Kurapika? No. It just waited for Pakunoda to break the rule and when she did, the chain killed her. In the 1999 anime, the chains were shown to materialize while rising from the ground, somehow visibly connecting Pakunoda to Kurapika. This tells us that once the rule was broken, the chain materialized to link itself to the source so that the full power of the punishment would be imposed.

Say Reiza got killed. What do you think would happen to GI? Greed Island would fall apart. Intruders and gamers alike will freely put the game out of balance. Spells like Leap or Accompany would stop working. That is why Greed Island needed to be more thought-out than Countdown. There is a system of GM-only cards handling potential troublemakers. Greed Island cards doesn't have any ability to kill people. Greed Island quests are not lethal. Greed Island GMs, like Reiza, are particularly powerful people that are hard to kill. The GMs are almost always inaccessible. How long did it take for players to find Reiza since the birth of GI? There are probably a lot more things to say when it comes to making sure that the men and women working behind GI don't get killed - or at least, don't get killed very easily, because the whole thing would fall apart.

But say one of the Bomber Devils get killed. Particularly the Emission user who maintains the bombs for a short span of time. What would happen? Here are things that I think would happen:

1. If the bombs are already set when the guy died, the bombs could get stronger since Nen might get stronger when the user dies.
2. If the bombs aren't one of those things that gets stronger when the user dies, the bombs would then just lose a lot of their power and would most likely not work (not explode) when the victims are out of the coverage area. This is why Potclean doesn't even add interest when the victim it's attached to is far enough from Knuckle.
3. The bombs would most likely have a time limit of existing as bombs. If the victims get out of range long enough then they'll just disappear. Kurotopi might have a thing or two to say about this.

So everything fits in the Emission model. Without Emission you cannot explain why Abengane and Kurapika mentions Emission in Materialization Hatsus. And it is exactly what you have done so far. You can't address this issue because you are just ignoring what Materialization user in the manga have always explained to us.

About what Wing could have said about Kastro's ability, it's pretty absurd to have one guy tell everything that has to work. Wing's focus in his explanation was the core Hatsus involved for each of Kastro's abilities. Tiger Fang's core Hatsu was Reinforcement, and the Doppelganger's core Hatsu was Materialization. Besides, Kurapika neatly covered what Wing didn't say about Materialized items maintained from afar. You're basically telling us that abilities won't work in a particular manner unless the manga explicitly tells us it works that way. That's problematic, because the way the manga explains how Nen works is through periodic installments. It doesn't explain everything neatly in one go. There is a big gap in terms of chapters when Wing explained Kastro's Hatsus and Kurapika's Emperor Time explanation (in York Shin). There is a big gap in the latter and the chapter where Biscuit explained how Hatsu training should go (in GI). There is also ridiculously huge gap when Kurapika's master revealed the Damage Reduction formula where he assumed both Kurapika and his opponent are at 100% of their physical abilities (Ch83 p6) and Biscuit's Condition Theory (Ch210 pp3-5). Without Biscuit's Condition Theory, what Kurapika's master said about physical condition would've just been something moot and academic. The latter information drives home the point that a person's physical condition is indeed integral to how Nen-users fight. We should be able to piece together information that seems disparate upon shallow investigation but turns out to be well-meshed after bothering to do some research. You don't expect the manga to spoon-feed you with complete tracts of info and be totalitarian about partial info. How many manga do that anyways? If we act like this, why are we even bothering with "Create you own Hatsu" and "HxH RPG" threads when most of what we are saying in those threads aren't given a green light by the manga anyways? Instead of being totalitarian just because we should instead try and be ready to present facts and name chapter numbers and pages to buttress our point. It sadly isn't happening too much; I mean, what kind of no-life sicko would bother doing that?

I realize I blabbed a lot but didn't respond to other things. I might in a later post or edit. Thanks.

 

[TheAmericandream]

Now I'm sure Morel uses multiple nen types for his smoke abilities, but isn't he confirmed Manipulation type? So does this mean the smoke is real smoke he manipulates, or no its just emitted aura? We even see him create the smoke dolls (which I thought were real smoke) and added a ball of his aura in the center to give it more complex controls. Just something I wasn't sure about.

 

[Demonspeed]

I think Morel conjures a pipe and manipulates the smoke at will.

 

[kkck]

To be honest I think kannon is an example of acquired specialization. Given that netero is an enhancer it would not make sense that kannon is actually conjured. its too far from his own nen type, I can't imagine it being that way with such a limitation. Wasn't it said in the databook that kannon came about during netero's retreat? People can become specialization and while we haven't been given the details of how such a thing would work I think a 4 year retreat of solely praying and training sounds like the sort of thing which could trigger such enlightenment so to speak.

A lot of people seem confused about emission and conjuration though. Emission implies making things out of pure nen and having them maintain their shape and power at a range. They are also invisible to the naked eye of normal nenless people. Conjuration implies making an actual physical object out of actual nen. They are very material things which can be seen even by nenless people. The issue at hand is that we can't always tell what is invisible to normal people as we can always see stuff.

 

[Demonspeed]

Netero is an enhancer so he is good at emission. For me Kannon is an emitted statue and he uses enhancement to increase the power of Kannon's punches and Zero is a pure emission technique.

 

[TheAmericandream]

About Morel, I don't think the pipe is conjured, is it? I had always thought it was just an actual really big pipe (used as a weapon like Nobunaga's sword), it doesn't seem to have any special qualities, and he never gets rid of it.

As far as Netero is concerned, I think Emission explains the Kannon ability, Enhancer (leaning towards Emission) or vice versa as Netero's Nen type also would make sense to me. Is he confirmed as an Enhancer? Also I know they say Conjurer and Manipulation has better aptitude for becoming Specialists later in life, but does anyone think its possible for other categories like Enhancers to become Specialists (under specific circumstances)? I'd like to think so anyway.

Out of all the Nen things I want to see in HxH, more then anything I want to see Emission based Nen training, how cool would that be if we got a Leorio training scene (present or past)?

 

[Demonspeed]

You are right about Morel. It's surely a condition like"i can only manipulate smoke which comes from this pipe".

 

[TheAmericandream]

Yea, that explains when Pufu steals his pipe and Morel has to chase after him to get it back.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Morel is definitely either manipulation or Emission- he is confirmed as using both extensively.

However, given his lack of HtH ability, i would gamble on him being manipulation more than emission.

As for Netero, his statue is definitely materialized. I think most of you are simply forgetting that a materialized object is an object- and as such, Netero can use reinforcement on it to make it stronger.

He basically use a Reinforcement/Manipulation/Emission/Materialization combo. The only style i haven't seen him use is Transformation.

Goreinu and Raizor both use materialization, manipulation and emission. I would hazard that Goreinu is Manipulation and Raizor Emission though, given that Raizor seems better tat Reinforcement/Emission while Goreinu specializes more in Manipulation/emission. (otoh, it could be just a result of Raizor being that good).

 

[fanatik]

Morau is confirmed sousa (manipulation) & Raizor is confirmed houshutsu (emission). I'd like to see more of Goreinu someday and maybe know for sure then.