Discussion Conqueror's Haki Breakdown

Hannibal Psyche

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Introduction
Note: The numbers in brackets corresponds with the chapter it's sourced from.
⁽¹⁾ = Image from Chapter 1.
Context: General Demonstration of Haki


Oda is pretty unorthodox in the way he informs us readers, he scatters titbits of information which when collected and pieced together produces a picturesque and deep understanding of the concept allayed. Understanding through syllogism rather than being spoon-fed the complete briefing requires patience; this forms a greater interactive experience between both reader and the story which makes this story enthralling.

Ironically complementing this subtle and vulpine delivery of information, he employs hyperbolic visuals to accompany his brief explanations; it allow the reader to form an in-depth understanding. In the case of Haki, this is achieved by pitting significantly inferior opponent against vastly superior opponents leaving us with a contrast; juxtaposition gives richness to understanding.

Raleigh (and others alike) whose outburst of King's Haki usually results in loss of consciousness; it's then easy to conclude that King's Haki ability is to primarily induce unconsciousness. We lose the nuance of visuals if not understood with reference to the description as context for the witnessed event.

Observation Haki:
  • Rayleigh displays his evasive prowess against the Elephant.

    Sandersonia haughty in character easily weaves her way past this flurry of blows.
If we allow visuals to take precedence without the reference to given definitions as a form of context, we may assume Observation Haki is the ability to evade attacks.
  • Against a revved up Luffy, this ability is seemingly non-existent.
When we take the definition of Observation Haki (the ability to foresee voluntary actions ⁽²⁵⁷⁾ ) as basis for interpreting visuals, we ascertain that evasion is not the result of this power, but a possibility from being able to foresee premeditated actions; achieving evasion depends on relative speed, reaction and circumstance - the fundamental basis of this power is simply to foresee future actions.

Armament Haki:
  • Sentomaru deflects Luffy's attack

    Similarly, Marigold's Haki deflects Luffy's attack.
If we only rely on the visual aids alone, we might come to the erroneous conclusion that Armament Haki's deflect attacks.
  • Armament Haki doesn't result in any deflections here.
However, when we come to the understanding that Armament Haki ⁽⁵⁹⁷⁾ being being compared to armour, this is referencing the fact that it's hard. It becomes quite apparent that the hardness that subsequently led to Luffy's weak attack being deflected as opposed to being led to believe that it's ability is to deflect.

To simplify my point, visuals and definitions are a dichotomy. All visuals need be interpreted in tandem with definitions.

Introduction


Source: Chapter 597 & 599​

We're told that the Pirate King will be decided by those possessing King's Haki which implies that it is (or should be) a fearsome power ⁽⁷¹⁷⁾.
The embellishment accredited seems inconsistent as King's Haki appears to be a mere fodder knocking tool given the many have concluded to be so, and is our general perception that it is aesthetically ostentatious and in utility rather dull, anticlimactic and superfluous giving the impression that it's somewhat overhyped.

Contradictory to this, we're given a different paradigm (or pushed towards it) by Rayleigh warning Luffy sincerely expressed that King's Haki must not be used until it can be controlled. Why? We'll soon find out. Nonetheless, one can't help but feel there is more to it besides knocking out fodder as it's been exercised against powerful foes too.

Pretext

Before defining King's Haki, a short and brief pretext is due. Zeff, succinctly condenses the consequences of feeling intimidated (lacking determination or conviction); intimidation is the gateway to defeat or death in battle ⁽⁶⁵⁾. Rayleigh's remark complements Zeff's by adding that the act of not doubting is strength which in reverse can be interpreted as the act of doubting is weakness ⁽⁵⁹⁷⁾ .

What is Supreme King's Haki?

First, I think one should contemplate on who a king is in general. A king is an figure-head who exercises unconditional power over his subject. Reverence and awe reverberate off the king. Most importantly, this air of superiority worn by the king demands the unbridled fear and reverence of his subjects regardless of loyalty or the lack thereof. Perhaps, we'll see if there's a relation between this definition... this concept... and that of King's Haki.

The manga explains it as the power to intimidate, and the potency of this power is measured by the user's spirit ⁽⁵⁹⁷⁾. This definition provokes questions; what does unconsciousness have to do with intimidation? Wouldn't it be better to describe this as the power to induce unconsciousness? It does come across that way. How else can this phenomenon be construed?

Robin gives us the answer; one can be intimidated to such a degree that they fall unconscious ⁽⁴⁹⁵⁾; it's comparable to someone who loses consciousness to a phobia such as needle phobia (trypanophobia). If one notices in the top-left Demalo Black panel, he says he felt "shivers" which denotes fear. This soporific effect or lull into unconsciousness seems to mask the nuanced distinction that this is a consequence of intimidation.
Note: Other translations describe King's Haki as the power to overwhelm, or overpower the will of the opponent. Will can be defined as determination, and the method by which determination can be weakened, overpowered or overwhelmed is through fear which makes "intimidation" the most apt definition.
I think it's also important to note that an unconscious person cannot feel intimidation; perhaps this is a defence-mechanism to avoid such powerful feelings. It requires being conscious to evidently express intimidation or fear and to acutely discern it, e.g., one knowing their lines, but forgetting them out of stage-fright. Inherently, it's a Psychological power; this begs the question that what effect does fear have in the heat of battle?

2 Degrees of Supreme King's Haki effect

There are 2 degrees in which people will react as a result of being intimidated by Supreme King's Haki:
  • Against the weak spirited, King's Haki will intimidate so much that the opponent will lose unconsciousness which are Robin's exact words ⁽⁴⁹⁵⁾ .
  • Against the strong spirited, though they may carry-on fighting, they're fighting with fear handicapping or suppressing their determination to win, fight or even fight back at all ⁽¹⁾ .


King's Haki is only a fearsome power if it can't be resisted. Everyone including animal and man that have been exposed to Conqueror's Haki have always pulled the disconcerted-expression which implies they were intimidated .

Source: Chapter 569 & 570
When 2 King's Haki users clash, it's in my opinion reminiscent of 2 people (or forces) pushing each other - if you're pushed and don't push back, you will fallback (in the case of King's, one will be intimidated). The clashes we're acquainted with have been equally matched, therefore, there's no out outcome from the clash.

With the premise that put forth, I am of the belief that whomever is exposed will be inevitably intimidated regardless of their strength. The only role strength of will has against King's Haki is staying conscious, but lest we forget that we mostly express intimidation while conscious.

Supreme King's Haki narrative at Amazon lily

The Gorgon sisters have unequivocally established that they were superior to Luffy before he used King's Haki or Gear 2nd. At this point, they're unaware he has a trick up his sleeve, so they're quite confident in their ability to manhandle him.

Isn't it odd that despite proving and showcasing their superiority, that they suddenly deem him a threat ⁽⁵²⁰⁾ after his brief outburst of King's Haki? Bare in mind they have no idea of Gear 2nd; his physical capacity is nonexistent.
This indicates that fear is truly a powerful weapon to impose in battle as iterated, and note that they do state: "nothing to be afraid of" because they were initially afraid, but only after affirming that he can't control his King's Haki.

I think it bears pointing out to the significance of their taking orders from Luffy (a male) without even consulting the Empress Boa Hancock. It again hints at how fearful they must have been from the outburst.

Supreme King's Haki narrative at Marineford (Shanks)

Shanks stepped into Marineford with King's haki; Coby was about to meet obliteration by Akainu and was resolved to die; Shanks intimidated Coby into unconsciousness out of mercy for his valour; on the other hand, Akainu's expression reveals the distressed look implying he was intimidated ⁽⁵⁷⁰⁾ ; this expression is common even amongst animals who have been intimidated by it.

General Effect of Fear

There aren't many examples of fear in battle; though, this isn't King's Haki at work, we get a glimpse or even, a raw display and ramifications of fear.

Zoro cuts Monet with a small slash which alerts her to the reality that Zoro has no qualms fighting women as wrongly assumed; he could decide to kill her on a whim as predators are naturally prone to; this frightening realisation to his capricious nature is enough to pit her into a state of macabre.
He then feigns an attack which Monet presumes would be accompanied with Haki; fear disrupts her ability to fight and she ends up losing control of her abilities, composure and ultimately... her ability to even fight properly - her defeat at that moment was concluded ⁽⁶⁸⁷⁾...

This is superb and well orchestrated kidology & contrivance; King's Haki ability to intimidate isn't orchestrated but supernaturally enforced and unavoidable. This is what makes it such a highly-regarded power.
The effect goes without saying, it emulates the reverential and intimidating disposition that a ruling King possesses over his subjects whether they truly deserve it or not.

Situations requiring Supreme King's Haki

King's Haki is only used sparingly as far as we've seen in the Manga. Most likely because it can't be used very often? and probably depends on the level at which the user possesses it; Rayleigh suggest he could use it more than once, but doesn't do so as not to draw any attention towards himself which suggests and increase in one's capacity will increase ability to use it with less constraints ⁽⁵⁰⁴⁾ .

Conclusion


Source: Chapter 570​

King's Haki based on what's been shown intimidates people to various degrees. It's potential is great and will probably be used a lot more as Chinjao has stated; it's going to be key in determining Pirate King, not just purposed for taking out fodder as can be easily assumed.

Extra Information
  • Luffy vs Joker.
  • Luffy vs Chinjao.
  • Luffy at Marineford.
  • Luffy vs 50,000 with wind raising dust into the air.
This is why when Shanks used King's Haki on Whitebeard's ship, the wind pressure was so strong that it dented the Moby Dick. The dent wasn't the intention, but was there to indicate how strong his King's Haki was which is why Whitebeard stated he was using it at its fullest intensity ⁽⁴³⁴⁾ .

Red Hair Shank's CoC

Note: Before reading, it's best to read exactly what CoC does HERE before reading any further. Miniature sized numbers in brackets refer to the chapter the image is sourced from. E.G. ⁽¹⁾ = Image from Chapter 1.
The general anecdote goes something along the lines of... Shanks boarded the Mobydick with his Conqueror's Haki activated; some people lost consciousness due to not having the will to remain conscious in his presence, while the others (apparently) were strong-willed enough to remain conscious. Some key details have gone amiss, and therefore contributes and inherently births a misconstrued story. The aim is to point out these missing details, and then give the actual (apologies if this sounds arrogant) narration in light of the actual context.

Before Arriving

Before Shanks stepped aboard the Mobydick, Marco and Jozu warn all the newcomers to stay back (away from Shanks⁽⁴³⁴⁾), but some being rightly inquisitive felt the need to question pre-emptive safety measures at a rather untimely period⁽⁴³⁴⁾.

His Arrival

Shanks has arrived, it's therefore, too late to stand within the outside of the unprotected zone⁽⁴³⁴⁾. As Shanks confidently makes his way though the enemy ship to meet Whitebeard, a wake of newcomers are falling by him, due to his overwhelming Conqueror's Haki⁽⁴³⁴⁾.

What If...

What if these unfledged newcomers had stayed back as Marco had said? Marco is no fool, he's a veteran, would make sense to assume had they promptly acted on his instructions, they'd still be standing, otherwise, why else would Marco propose they stay back?

Newcomers

We know the newcomers in Shank's path were knocked out, however, there are other newcomers too. The other newcomers are the people all looking shocked and asking questions; they've never witnessed such a power before. Marco being a good leader reassures them to remain calm; the meeting of 2 Emperors is makes for a very volatile and tense environment as is evident. ⁽⁴³⁴⁾.

Marco is also not telling Jozu or the other veterans to remain clam, they're all familiar with Conqueror's haki, unlike newcomers. Therefore, it can be inferred that there are newcomers scattered all over the ship; the newcomers who gout knocked out were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Many of them are standing in the area that Marco pointed out as a safe zone which is why they're still conscious⁽⁴³⁴⁾.

Where Are...

Marco and Jozu? Initially, we see Marco and Jozu at the bottom of the stair⁽⁴³⁴⁾, it's important to take note, that these stairs are by the Picket Fence which can only be found opposite the Ship's entrance. It's only because the entrance is a stretch of open floor space, that we find some Newcomers⁽⁴³⁴⁾ at the far widths of the ship.

As Shanks draws ever closer to Whitebeard, the Whitebeard Veterans and Newcomers edge back further away from the bottom of the stairs to just behind Picket Fence. Based on the layout, we can ascertain that Marco, Jozu and the Newcomers are all in the Safe Zone.

How Far was Shank's Haki Spread?


If Shank's Haki was spread throughout the entire ship, there would be no newcomers for Marco to tell to remain calm because they'd all certainly have lost consciousness if that were the case,this means it was only active to within a restricted area which was the route he took to get to Whitebeard⁽⁴³⁴⁾.

And if one remembers, Shanks said he didn't come to start a war, he was just ensuring his own safety being on an enemy ship and simply have a discussion with Whitebeard⁽⁴³⁴⁾.

Conclusion

The point of this is to show that, the reason Marco and Jozu weren't fazed by Shanks's Conqueror's Haki is because Shanks only restricted his Haki to within a certain area of the ship. The area Marco and Jozu were stood (including the newcomers beside them) was out of the range of Shanks' Conqueror's Haki. Were this not the case, the newcomers beside Jozu and Marco would have either fainted, while Jozu and Marco would have been intimidated; being that neither happened, it's safe to say, Shanks's Haki most definitely wasn't extended to where they were.
 
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Barrier

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I don't know how you decide that Coby fainted because of Shanks's haki and not because of Akainu's outburst.

Otherwise it's great. Many people including me underestimate CoC
 

Hannibal Psyche

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I don't know how you decide that Coby fainted because of Shanks's haki and not because of Akainu's outburst.

Otherwise it's great. Many people including me underestimate CoC
Thanks, and it's most likely as a result of Shank's CoC. When Akainu was about to attack him, he was still conscious and was waiting for Akainu to kill him; in one scene while Akainu was proceeding to connect this death-blow, internal-monologue shows him showing his resolve to be ready to die and having no regrets.

It's not until Shanks appears that he's knocked out, also Akainu's punch never hits Coby nor splashes on him. Shanks blocks it with his sword and it just makes Akainu's magma-attack splatter sideways instead.
 

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Or maybe Coby just passed out because a freaking Yonko appeared suddenly right in front of him. I don't think Shanks used CoC in that panel. If he did then why would he only choose to knock out Coby and none of the other weaker hostile Marines?
 

Hannibal Psyche

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Or maybe Coby just passed out because a freaking Yonko appeared suddenly right in front of him. I don't think Shanks used CoC in that panel. If he did then why would he only choose to knock out Coby and none of the other weaker hostile Marines?
For one, even Akainu didn't notice Shanks until moments later or after his punch was blocked, so why should Coby? Shanks appeared undetected by anyone or just really fast. Also, take into consideration that Coby was about to be killed by Akainu; even Aokiji who was facing Whitebeard would never have noticed Jozu coming in had he not had Observation haki or just been very aware of his surroundings and I doubt Coby is that seasoned a fight.

From this Moment



To this Moment



From the moment he Akainu was punching to the moment Shanks blocked the punch must have occurred within split seconds this being a fantasy story. Coby is clearly conscious at this point as he can still be seen protecting himself; it's not until the moment Shanks uses CoC does he get knocked out and says well-done Young Marine; he's knocked out possibly as a form of mercy for his good-deed and bravery.

Also, Luffy had knocked out most of the weak Marines as shown here and this is where Doberman proceeds to tell the weak Marines to stay away which they probably did.



Now, Coby was also punched by Luffy and lost consciousness briefly, so CoC never affected him which is why he's up moments later. Shanks can control his haki unlike Luffy who couldn't even control his outburst to distinguish between friend and foe.

Looks very much like CoC to me.
 

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I still don't think there is any other significant effect to conqueror's haki. By now we have seen conqueror's haki god knows how many times and at least 2 clashes of conqueror haki users. In neither scenario have we see any "advanced" usage of it. In this case I would argue there are two possibilities:

1.- There are no conqueror haki special abilities other than what we have seen.
2.- Conqueror haki is already doing something else which is invisible but implied. Kinda like when armor haki first appeared. During the war we can pretty much assume everyone was using yet it is invisible thus we didn't see it. Anyways, it is possible that when conqueror haki users fight their hakis are clashing and having a marginal yet cumulative effect on the battle.

Anyways, one way or the other conqueror's haki major significance still seems to be what it implies about the user. Just its mere presence in someone implies the disposition of a king in someone. Basically whoever has it is someone who has greatness in him, an unbreakable will, maybe even the capacity to lead. In essence conqueror's haki is just short of being the physical manifestation of someone's greatness. People aren't awesome because they have conqueror's haki. They have conqueror's haki because they are awesome. With that in mind whenever someone with conqueror's haki appears people around know as unquestionable fact that this person is bound to imposing himself upon others, that his will is so powerful it physically manifests upon the world and overwhelms lesser being. As far as the marines are concerned, it tells them immediately of the potential of the one displaying it. It's significance does not lie in it providing the user with awesome power or an overwhelming advantage over someone who does not have it, its significance lies in what it implies of the character of the user.
 

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I still don't think there is any other significant effect to conqueror's haki. By now we have seen conqueror's haki god knows how many times and at least 2 clashes of conqueror haki users. In neither scenario have we see any "advanced" usage of it. In this case I would argue there are two possibilities:

1.- There are no conqueror haki special abilities other than what we have seen.
2.- Conqueror haki is already doing something else which is invisible but implied. Kinda like when armor haki first appeared. During the war we can pretty much assume everyone was using yet it is invisible thus we didn't see it. Anyways, it is possible that when conqueror haki users fight their hakis are clashing and having a marginal yet cumulative effect on the battle.

Anyways, one way or the other conqueror's haki major significance still seems to be what it implies about the user. Just its mere presence in someone implies the disposition of a king in someone. Basically whoever has it is someone who has greatness in him, an unbreakable will, maybe even the capacity to lead. In essence conqueror's haki is just short of being the physical manifestation of someone's greatness. People aren't awesome because they have conqueror's haki. They have conqueror's haki because they are awesome. With that in mind whenever someone with conqueror's haki appears people around know as unquestionable fact that this person is bound to imposing himself upon others, that his will is so powerful it physically manifests upon the world and overwhelms lesser being. As far as the marines are concerned, it tells them immediately of the potential of the one displaying it. It's significance does not lie in it providing the user with awesome power or an overwhelming advantage over someone who does not have it, its significance lies in what it implies of the character of the user.
There's one thing Rayleigh didn't do when speaking about conqueror's haki that he did for both Observation and Armament haki; he tells us what happens should one progress or all the ways it can be utilized. Conqueror's haki, he merely states it intimidates so there's really no reason to think otherwise since it's Manga stated.

I don't think it's a mere indicator of someone's greatness, it's clearly also a power which is why it's feared; everything shown says otherwise.

Also, why did Chinjao state that it's what will determine who becomes Pirate King? All potential kings logically can't be fodder, so why is it going to have any influence? It's clearly not just there to indicate a threat, threats can be brushed aside, it's clearly a power.

Zoro intimidated Monet (without Conqueror's haki) by orchestrating a scenario that gave her reason to fear and we saw what that did to the control she had over her abilities. Conqueror's haki clearly imposes intimidation without giving reasoning or need to make one, so it definitely gives one the advantage in battle.

Just because it's only been noticed when it knocks out fodder doesn't mean that's the only purpose it serves. Except one just discards the context and all the information that's been provided in the Manga about Conqueror's haki, then it merely looks like a useless fodder-weeding ability.
 

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I still don't think there is any other significant effect to conqueror's haki. By now we have seen conqueror's haki god knows how many times and at least 2 clashes of conqueror haki users. In neither scenario have we see any "advanced" usage of it. In this case I would argue there are two possibilities:

1.- There are no conqueror haki special abilities other than what we have seen.
2.- Conqueror haki is already doing something else which is invisible but implied. Kinda like when armor haki first appeared. During the war we can pretty much assume everyone was using yet it is invisible thus we didn't see it. Anyways, it is possible that when conqueror haki users fight their hakis are clashing and having a marginal yet cumulative effect on the battle.

Anyways, one way or the other conqueror's haki major significance still seems to be what it implies about the user. Just its mere presence in someone implies the disposition of a king in someone. Basically whoever has it is someone who has greatness in him, an unbreakable will, maybe even the capacity to lead. In essence conqueror's haki is just short of being the physical manifestation of someone's greatness. People aren't awesome because they have conqueror's haki. They have conqueror's haki because they are awesome. With that in mind whenever someone with conqueror's haki appears people around know as unquestionable fact that this person is bound to imposing himself upon others, that his will is so powerful it physically manifests upon the world and overwhelms lesser being. As far as the marines are concerned, it tells them immediately of the potential of the one displaying it. It's significance does not lie in it providing the user with awesome power or an overwhelming advantage over someone who does not have it, its significance lies in what it implies of the character of the user.
Doflamingo shouldn't be considered to be a proficient haki user since luffy was able to beat through his haki without even using gear 4th. We haven't seen how strong people fight with CoC, that means Rayleigh and Shanks.
 

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It seems that your whole theory is based on the wording that Rayleigh used when he explained CoC. Intimidating=trying to knock him unsconscious, or else why would Rayleigh be worried about intimidating innocent people?I can only see that as the only reason Rayleigh would be worried about Luffy knocking out the wrong people.
Another thing that makes absolutely no sense to me, is the comparison you hold between CoC and the Kong gun. Those are two different things.Not only does the Kong gun use Busoushoku haki, but it is a physical attack, whilst the CoC isn't. It's a clash of wills if you want, the one with the superior will wins, and those who aren't strong willed can't handle it, which results in them fainting.
Next just because the Kong gun didn't work on DD it means that technique has some sort of other purpose behind it. The reason it didn't work is that it wasn't strong enough to stop DD, or the latter is so resistant that it didn't work.And Luffy explains that quite well when he remembers his training with Rayleigh. Whereas with CoC it was said by Oda in a SBS that people with a really strong CoC like Shanks and Rayleigh would be able to knock for example 100000 fishmen, when Luffy can only knock out 50000. So the goal of strengthening one's haki could be to knock out even more people, that's why you have beasts like Shanks and Rayleigh who would be able of doing such a feat.
I fear your theory is based on assumptions and not facts. Nothing so far seems to suggest that CoC has some other effect than the one we know. In fact even when two users of CoCs clashed it didn't seem to cause anything different,some thought it caused destruction but it didn't. Even though we saw Shanks do something like that on WB's ship, it could have been just to emphasize how powerful his haki is, and I think that crack was already there and was simply enlarged, at least it seems so in the anime.And Coby fainting was most likely due to the shock.The resulting shockwave of a clash of CoC can push people away, like with Law who was pushed of harm's way because of Luffy and DD's haki.
As far as knocking out fodder goes, the more Luffy can knock out the better. Because based on that time with Shanks,not all of the members of a Yonko crew can withstand it. So it is going to be useful in that particular aspect. I doubt that CoC would work on a Yonko like you seem to think in a different thread, because he can't be weak enough to be affected by it.

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:35 PM ----------

This type of Haki grants the user the ability to dominate the wills of others. The most common usage in the series so far is knocking those with weak wills unconscious.[3][6] Whilst inexperienced users are restricted to merely overpowering the will of one individual or blindly knocking out weak-willed people around them, those with more expertise can pick out weak-willed individuals in a large group and knock them out without affecting those around them.[7] However, those with stronger wills can resist or even ignore the effects of Haoshoku Haki. The ability to knock someone out depends on the difference in strength between the person using Haki and the person or persons the user is trying to knock out. The greater the power gap, the easier it is to knock the victim out.[8] According to Rayleigh, while this type of Haki cannot be attained through training, it can be improved through strengthening the will of the user. It seems that upon recovery, victims of Haoshoku Haki experience the sensation of chills running through their body. However, it presumably wears off after a short period. One can also use Haki to destroy things as seen by Shanks. When on Whitebeard's ship Shanks was able to crack a part of the ship using his Haki.
These are the notable effects of CoC, as well as the explanation of what it is.
 
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Next just because the Kong gun didn't work on DD it means that technique has some sort of other purpose behind it. The reason it didn't work is that it wasn't strong enough to stop DD, or the latter is so resistant that it didn't work.And Luffy explains that quite well when he remembers his training with Rayleigh. Whereas with CoC it was said by Oda in a SBS that people with a really strong CoC like Shanks and Rayleigh would be able to knock for example 100000 fishmen, when Luffy can only knock out 50000. So the goal of strengthening one's haki could be to knock out even more people, that's why you have beasts like Shanks and Rayleigh who would be able of doing such a feat.

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:35 PM ----------


These are the notable effects of CoC, as well as the explanation of what it is.
A stronger CoC doesn't mean you can knock out more opponents. What Oda meant is that since Shanks CoC is stronger the difference between his will and those of the fishmen is greater than the difference between Luffy's will and theirs. There's some kind of necessary difference between the two opponents' will for the stronger to be able to knock out the weak willed one.
 

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A stronger CoC doesn't mean you can knock out more opponents. What Oda meant is that since Shanks CoC is stronger the difference between his will and those of the fishmen is greater than the difference between Luffy's will and theirs. There's some kind of necessary difference between the two opponents' will for the stronger to be able to knock out the weak willed one.
Of course but eventually with Luffy's will becoming stronger he can do the same type of feats, not to mention that he could knock out more powerful people than the ones in FI. It depends on the gap between the one who uses haki and the one he wants to knock out, the bigger the gap the easier it is to knock out someone.Right now Luffy's haki isn't on par with Shanks or Rayleigh, so he still needs to get stronger in that aspect.
 

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In one game it was stated that Shanks can control time and also in manga and anime we have seen that while using Haoshoku time is slowing down so for me it can make weak people faint but in case of stronger people it can freeze their movement, their brains so they can not react. Also it is obvious that Roger conquered world using Haoshoku and it can affects also material things because it is like wave of will created from strong spirit. We have seen this a lot of times(Shanks crushing WB's ship, shockwaves destroying surroundings). So I think in the future we will see its real power which can let you use shockwaves of will to crush opponents, materials and so on. It is logical assumption because everyone shits their pants while standing in front someone with Haoshoku. It wouldnt be so feared and rare power if it could only make people faint.
 

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In one game it was stated that Shanks can control time and also in manga and anime we have seen that while using Haoshoku time is slowing down so for me it can make weak people faint but in case of stronger people it can freeze their movement, their brains so they can not react. Also it is obvious that Roger conquered world using Haoshoku and it can affects also material things because it is like wave of will created from strong spirit. We have seen this a lot of times(Shanks crushing WB's ship, shockwaves destroying surroundings). So I think in the future we will see its real power which can let you use shockwaves of will to crush opponents, materials and so on. It is logical assumption because everyone shits their pants while standing in front someone with Haoshoku. It wouldnt be so feared and rare power if it could only make people faint.
The clash between Luffy's and DD's haki didn't cause destruction as you seem to think

Bottom panel, those are just rubble or elements that are getting swept away due to the shockwave. In the next page you can see Law being swept away as well

So no it didn't cause destruction as you claim.
 
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The clash between Luffy's and DD's haki didn't cause destruction as you seem to think

Bottom panel, those are just rubble or elements that are getting swept away due to the shockwave. In the next page you can see Law being swept away as well

So no it didn't cause destruction as you claim.
Yes because it was weak clash but just look at clash between haoshoku of Luffy and Don. Everything was just flying. Even space was affected.
 

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It seems that your whole theory is based on the wording that Rayleigh used when he explained CoC. Intimidating=trying to knock him unsconscious, or else why would Rayleigh be worried about intimidating innocent people?I can only see that as the only reason Rayleigh would be worried about Luffy knocking out the wrong people.
Another thing that makes absolutely no sense to me, is the comparison you hold between CoC and the Kong gun. Those are two different things.Not only does the Kong gun use Busoushoku haki, but it is a physical attack, whilst the CoC isn't. It's a clash of wills if you want, the one with the superior will wins, and those who aren't strong willed can't handle it, which results in them fainting.
Next just because the Kong gun didn't work on DD it means that technique has some sort of other purpose behind it. The reason it didn't work is that it wasn't strong enough to stop DD, or the latter is so resistant that it didn't work.And Luffy explains that quite well when he remembers his training with Rayleigh. Whereas with CoC it was said by Oda in a SBS that people with a really strong CoC like Shanks and Rayleigh would be able to knock for example 100000 fishmen, when Luffy can only knock out 50000. So the goal of strengthening one's haki could be to knock out even more people, that's why you have beasts like Shanks and Rayleigh who would be able of doing such a feat.
I fear your theory is based on assumptions and not facts. Nothing so far seems to suggest that CoC has some other effect than the one we know. In fact even when two users of CoCs clashed it didn't seem to cause anything different,some thought it caused destruction but it didn't. Even though we saw Shanks do something like that on WB's ship, it could have been just to emphasize how powerful his haki is, and I think that crack was already there and was simply enlarged, at least it seems so in the anime.And Coby fainting was most likely due to the shock.The resulting shockwave of a clash of CoC can push people away, like with Law who was pushed of harm's way because of Luffy and DD's haki.
As far as knocking out fodder goes, the more Luffy can knock out the better. Because based on that time with Shanks,not all of the members of a Yonko crew can withstand it. So it is going to be useful in that particular aspect. I doubt that CoC would work on a Yonko like you seem to think in a different thread, because he can't be weak enough to be affected by it.

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:35 PM ----------


These are the notable effects of CoC, as well as the explanation of what it is.
What else are we supposed to depend on to understand things if not for wording? Observations are all well and good, but explanations and information help put things into context.

This theory is based on Manga explanations and dialogue, so it is evidence. How can anyone make good argument if they're not basing anything on both dialogue and scenes? if not I can disregard all dialogue and rightly say Whitebeard couldn't have been the strongest man since he died which would be sorely inaccurate, the words give context to scenes and make it more understandable imo.

The point I was trying to make with CoC and Kong gun (I meant to initially say Leo Bazooka even lol) is that I find people seem to disregard anything if it doesn't appear to do anything. One could argue that because Kong gun didn't knock-out Joker , it was ineffective and that's the same logic that's being passed on to CoC.

When Marco and Vista both attacked Akainu using armament haki, it appeared to be ineffective. If I disregard information and dialogue, I might as well just say they didn't use haki or he'd have been hurt.

Just because Conqueror's doesn't knock-out strong opponents doesn't mean it was ineffective. In fact, wouldn't it be absurd if Luffy could have just used CoC to knock-out Joker just because his Conqueror's was a bit stronger? It takes away from the excitement found in the contention between opponents.

Armament haki clearly has 2 sub-divisions as I'd assume you know; one could say Rayleigh never showed armament haki as black therefore concluding there's no distinction between those who use the invisible form of armament haki and the black armament haki. If one doesn't reconcile both scenes and information, the context of occurrences would be gravely misinterpreted.

Rayleigh merely said CoC intimidates and when he used it, it knocked out the elephant; so are we saying the translations given both in all the different Manga sites and Anime are wrong? Maybe Rayleigh should have said CoC is for knocking out opponents, but I'm giving translations the benefit of the doubt, putting the explanations into the context and attempt to interpret scenes within the explained context.

Also, Chinjao said potential Pirate Kings will be clashing with each other to determine who will be Pirate King. We can only disregard and limit Conqueror's haki to nothing else than being a tool for fodder if we disregard all the things stated and all the exhibitions of concern shown about Conqueror's haki.

If anything, taking both scenes and context; it's quite clear that if we had to scale the levels of intimidation in a regressive order:
  • Knocked out out of utter intimidation > fear > worry > self-doubt, etc.
CoC is not just mere calculated intimidation like Zoro used against Monet, it's just simply induced which is why I believe it's a feared power. We saw what Monet was like when she was intimidated and this being a shounen manga, lack of belief in one's self essentially weakens an opponent regardless of strength.

I'm not saying Kaido would have started rolling on the floor unable to stand before Shanks or out-rightly just retreated with tail between his legs; he may just have doubted himself momentarily and thought I'll leave this for another day. They may even have clashed which I believe is what happened, but eventually decided to save it for another day.

I just think it will give one a Psychological advantage and nothing more, that's all I see CoC to be against the strong and fodder-killer against the weak.

Sorry for the long post, lol.
 

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What else are we supposed to depend on to understand things if not for wording? Observations are all well and good, but explanations and information help put things into context.

This theory is based on Manga explanations and dialogue, so it is evidence. How can anyone make good argument if they're not basing anything on both dialogue and scenes? if not I can disregard all dialogue and rightly say Whitebeard couldn't have been the strongest man since he died which would be sorely inaccurate, the words give context to scenes and make it more understandable imo.
Well that's the thing, we can't just rely on the wording. Remember this is a translated manga, that comes out originally in Japanese. Each team of translators uses a different wording to get the general meaning to the readers. Because the Japanese have a different way of saying things, it is virtually impossible to use a literal translation. That's why taking words as intimidate literally doesn't work, you have to put in into context, in this case the intimidation part is more like when Luffy and even Shanks used it on animals. The goal of CoC is to "dominate the will of others", and that means that someone with a strong will is able to bypass the will of another, and depending on how strong his will is, and how much there is of a difference in both, it could result in the weaker willed person to faint. Nothing else is implied, other than this. Either the person faints,or not.

The point I was trying to make with CoC and Kong gun (I meant to initially say Leo Bazooka even lol) is that I find people seem to disregard anything if it doesn't appear to do anything. One could argue that because Kong gun didn't knock-out Joker , it was ineffective and that's the same logic that's being passed on to CoC.
This is all based on your assumption that CoC does something else other than knocking people up, that even if a person didn't faint, which means she can withstand CoC, she would suffer something else, and yet we haven't seen you explain what it is.
When Marco and Vista both attacked Akainu using armament haki, it appeared to be ineffective. If I disregard information and dialogue, I might as well just say they didn't use haki or he'd have been hurt.
Flawed, since in Marineford the blackened effect of Haki wasn't show yet. And more importantly it simply could mean that Akainu's haki is stronger than theirs, and as we've seen with the Zoro vs Pica duel, the one with the strongest haki wins.
Just because Conqueror's doesn't knock-out strong opponents doesn't mean it was ineffective. In fact, wouldn't it be absurd if Luffy could have just used CoC to knock-out Joker just because his Conqueror's was a bit stronger? It takes away from the excitement found in the contention between opponents.
No he can't because CoC users aren't going to be as weak to be knocked out by CoC. In order for Luffy to do that the gap needs to be pretty big, when if anything it seemed their hakis were close.
Armament haki clearly has 2 sub-divisions as I'd assume you know; one could say Rayleigh never showed armament haki as black therefore concluding there's no distinction between those who use the invisible form of armament haki and the black armament haki. If one doesn't reconcile both scenes and information, the context of occurrences would be gravely misinterpreted.
No I don't assume, I KNOW that back then Armament Haki wasn't shown as black, there is no two sub-divisions in Haki, unless we're going to assume that offensive and defensive Haki can be seen as such. Stop making stuff up.
Rayleigh merely said CoC intimidates and when he used it, it knocked out the elephant; so are we saying the translations given both in all the different Manga sites and Anime are wrong? Maybe Rayleigh should have said CoC is for knocking out opponents, but I'm giving translations the benefit of the doubt, putting the explanations into the context and attempt to interpret scenes within the explained context.
:fail the anime is rarely a valid canon source.
Also, Chinjao said potential Pirate Kings will be clashing with each other to determine who will be Pirate King. We can only disregard and limit Conqueror's haki to nothing else than being a tool for fodder if we disregard all the things stated and all the exhibitions of concern shown about Conqueror's haki.
If we follow the logic of wanting to dominate others will, the Pirate King(there can be only one) is supposed to have the strongest CoC. Actually we had an exemple that showed us what happens when two CoC clash. Again it depends on the gap between the will of each one of them, It needs to be significantly big, which is why I doubt that we'll see something like CoC user being knocked out by another CoC.
If anything, taking both scenes and context; it's quite clear that if we had to scale the levels of intimidation in a regressive order:
  • Knocked out out of utter intimidation > fear > worry > self-doubt, etc.
LOL . I'm trying to imagine the Yonko cowering in fear and self doubting themselves when they see Luffy use his CoC. Yeah I really can't. Luffy will have to do more than use Haki to make them doubt themselves, even DD didn't doubt himself. Because it's an essential trope in this manga, that most of Luffy's opponents end up underestimating him. Besides what would be the point of making them fear him? He's going to beat their asses anyway, even Shanks.
CoC is not just mere calculated intimidation like Zoro used against Monet, it's just simply induced which is why I believe it's a feared power. We saw what Monet was like when she was intimidated and this being a shounen manga, lack of belief in one's self essentially weakens an opponent regardless of strength.
She was intimidated by his killing intent most likely, the whole beast thing.

Well after reading all of your posts it seems apparent that there simply isn't a proof that CoC does more than simply knock out people.It is all based on a too literal use of the word "intimidating"
Like I said the purpose is to dominate others, if it is someone strong willed it won't work, but if it's someone with a weak will then he'll pass out, simple as that. The gap between CoC users needs to be pretty big if we want to see a CoC user faint, that's why it won't happen often, if not at all.
 
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Well that's the thing, we can't just rely on the wording. Remember this is a translated manga, that comes out originally in Japanese. Each team of translators uses a different wording to get the general meaning to the readers. Because the Japanese have a different way of saying things, it is virtually impossible to use a literal translation. That's why taking words as intimidate literally doesn't work, you have to put in into context, in this case the intimidation part is more like when Luffy and even Shanks used it on animals. The goal of CoC is to "dominate the will of others", and that means that someone with a strong will is able to bypass the will of another, and depending on how strong his will is, and how much there is of a difference in both, it could result in the weaker willed person to faint. Nothing else is implied, other than this. Either the person faints,or not.


This is all based on your assumption that CoC does something else other than knocking people up, that even if a person didn't faint, which means she can withstand CoC, she would suffer something else, and yet we haven't seen you explain what it is.


Flawed, since in Marineford the blackened effect of Haki wasn't show yet. And more importantly it simply could mean that Akainu's haki is stronger than theirs, and as we've seen with the Zoro vs Pica duel, the one with the strongest haki wins.

No he can't because CoC users aren't going to be as weak to be knocked out by CoC. In order for Luffy to do that the gap needs to be pretty big, when if anything it seemed their hakis were close.


No I don't assume, I KNOW that back then Armament Haki wasn't shown as black, there is no two sub-divisions in Haki, unless we're going to assume that offensive and defensive Haki can be seen as such. Stop making stuff up.


:fail the anime is rarely a valid canon source.


If we follow the logic of wanting to dominate others will, the Pirate King(there can be only one) is supposed to have the strongest CoC. Actually we had an exemple that showed us what happens when two CoC clash. Again it depends on the gap between the will of each one of them, It needs to be significantly big, which is why I doubt that we'll see something like CoC user being knocked out by another CoC.

LOL . I'm trying to imagine the Yonko cowering in fear and self doubting themselves when they see Luffy use his CoC. Yeah I really can't. Luffy will have to do more than use Haki to make them doubt themselves, even DD didn't doubt himself. Because it's an essential trope in this manga, that most of Luffy's opponents end up underestimating him. Besides what would be the point of making them fear him? He's going to beat their asses anyway, even Shanks.

She was intimidated by his killing intent most likely, the whole beast thing.

Well after reading all of your posts it seems apparent that there simply isn't a proof that CoC does more than simply knock out people.It is all based on a too literal use of the word "intimidating"
Like I said the purpose is to dominate others, if it is someone strong willed it won't work, but if it's someone with a weak will then he'll pass out, simple as that. The gap between CoC users needs to be pretty big if we want to see a CoC user faint, that's why it won't happen often, if not at all.
I've not made any of this up. In Black and white it states Conqueror's haki intimidates and I'm sure I don't need to point to the exact chapter or page because I've provided pictures in the spoiler and it's all there written in the manga.

When Luffy used haki in Amazon Lily, why did the Gorgon sisters do as he said?

We know they were trying to publicly disgrace Luffy to give males the image of being weak in comparison and to further take pride in being females.

The Gorgon sisters listened to what Luffy demanded, not request. That alone breaks a fundamental rule of the society they've created, taking orders from a man (of all beings) who they were just about to kill. They didn't even get Hancock's permission; how can such a scene be explained if it's not intimidation?

Also, Intimidation can be expressed in subtle ways. It doesn't have to be displayed in full-effect for one to be intimidated. Intimidation even in reality is psychological and depending on the degree to which it's imposed or felt, it can manifest physically.

I won't argue much, but I can assure you I'm not just making up things, lol. Every point I make is supported with reference of evidence, but each to their own.

When Shanks used CoC against the Sea-King? It didn't faint, but it retreated. How do you explain that? What purpose did CoC releasing serve if it didn't knock the Sea-king out?

None of them can be explained except using intimidation as the context for the resulting behaviour, but I can understand the scepticism.
 
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I've not made any of this up. In Black and white it states Conqueror's haki intimidates and I'm sure I don't need to point to the exact chapter or page because I've provided pictures in the spoiler and it's all there written in the manga.

When Luffy used haki in Amazon Lily, why did the Gorgon sisters do as he said?

We know they were trying to publicly disgrace Luffy to give males the image of being weak in comparison and to further take pride in being females.

The Gorgon sisters listened to what Luffy demanded, not request. That alone breaks a fundamental rule of the society they've created, taking orders from a man (of all beings) who they were just about to kill. They didn't even get Hancock's permission; how can such a scene be explained if it's not intimidation?

Also, Intimidation can be expressed in subtle ways. It doesn't have to be displayed in full-effect for one to be intimidated. Intimidation even in reality is psychological and depending on the degree to which it's imposed or felt, it can manifest physically.

I won't argue much, but I can assure you I'm not just making up things, lol. Every point I make is supported with reference of evidence, but each to their own.

When Shanks used CoC against the Sea-King? It didn't faint, but it retreated. How do you explain that? What purpose did CoC releasing serve if it didn't knock the Sea-king out?

None of them can be explained except using intimidation as the context for the resulting behaviour, but I can understand the scepticism.
Read my post, I explained the sea king part, as for the Gorgon sisters, with the exception of Boa herself, they don't have CoC. So of course they would be surprised and would thread carefully around someone who has it.
The most notable effect of CoC IS knocking down people, which in turn makes people who are too weak to withstand it respect that power. Because it is the disposition of a king, it is supposed to mirror the strength of will of its user, so it's a good indicator that the person is strong most of the time. And the fact it's rare and cannot be learned adds to that. So the intimidating part is just a wording, the CoC doesn't in itself induce fear or control that person, it's the fact that the person has it that may cause people to thread carefully. It's a good means of dissuasion, and unless I'm wrong chances are that strong people with CoC specifically won't be affected by it. When we have definite proof that along knocking people out it makes them also doubt themselves, then we could say it has another purpose than the one I mentioned. Also the goal here is not to have Luffy go around and make his enemies doubt themselves, at least the ones that matter (Shichibukai, Yonko etc). Anyone who is someone must be able to keep his cool after witnessing CoC, and more importantly it is NOT doubting themselves that makes them weak, in fact it can be argued that every enemy Luffy faced weren't intimidated by him and never run of a battle, despite losing. This can be said in particular about DD who despite having been beaten up to an inch of his life, he still stood up and was smiling, despite suffering multipe injuries and having his organs turned into jelly.He also continued to fight, until he was utterly defeated. Why didn't he run with his tail between his legs when Luffy used CoC? If it's supposed to intimidate someone then shouldn't it work on DD, since apparently it doesn't just knock out people? The fact is DD lost not because he was afraid, on the contrary he was overconfident, and it is apparent when both him and Luffy leapt into the sky. So really it cannot be said that he was intimidated even one bit.
Really the more I discuss this with you, the more I find that I really don't see your point. For the reasons I mentioned it's not actually proven that CoC has other effects than the one we saw, and it simply won't work against strong willed people. So it can't be a breakdown of CoC, the title is misleading. Also based on all the information we have, we actually have a good idea of what CoC is and what it can do, and the fact it's rare. Everything else is just assumption, we have yet to see a strong character being affected by it, unless you want to claim that the Gorgon sisters are strong...They're not weak, but you get my point, and if you don't then I really can't see what can be done.
 
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Read my post, I explained the sea king part, as for the Gorgon sisters, with the exception of Boa herself, they don't have CoC. So of course they would be surprised and would thread carefully around someone who has it.
The most notable effect of CoC IS knocking down people, which in turn makes people who are too weak to withstand it respect that power. Because it is the disposition of a king, it is supposed to mirror the strength of will of its user, so it's a good indicator that the person is strong most of the time. And the fact it's rare and cannot be learned adds to that. So the intimidating part is just a wording, the CoC doesn't in itself induce fear or control that person, it's the fact that the person has it that may cause people to thread carefully. It's a good means of dissuasion, and unless I'm wrong chances are that strong people with CoC specifically won't be affected by it. When we have definite proof that along knocking people out it makes them also doubt themselves, then we could say it has another purpose than the one I mentioned. Also the goal here is not to have Luffy go around and make his enemies doubt themselves, at least the ones that matter (Shichibukai, Yonko etc). Anyone who is someone must be able to keep his cool after witnessing CoC, and more importantly it is NOT doubting themselves that makes them weak, in fact it can be argued that every enemy Luffy faced weren't intimidated by him and never run of a battle, despite losing. This can be said in particular about DD who despite having been beaten up to an inch of his life, he still stood up and was smiling, despite suffering multipe injuries and having his organs turned into jelly.He also continued to fight, until he was utterly defeated. Why didn't he run with his tail between his legs when Luffy used CoC? If it's supposed to intimidate someone then shouldn't it work on DD, since apparently it doesn't just knock out people? The fact is DD lost not because he was afraid, on the contrary he was overconfident, and it is apparent when both him and Luffy leapt into the sky. So really it cannot be said that he was intimidated even one bit.
Really the more I discuss this with you, the more I find that there isn't really a purpose to this thread. For the reasons I mentioned it's not actually proven that CoC has other effects than the one we saw, and it simply won't work against strong willed people. So it can't be a breakdown of CoC, the title is misleading. Also based on all the information we have, we actually have a good idea of what CoC is and what it can do, and the fact it's rare. Everything else is just assumption, we have yet to see a strong character being affected by it, unless you want to claim that the Gorgon sisters are strong...They're not weak, but you get my point, and if you don't then I really can't see what can be done.
Lol, I guess there's no purpose for the thread as you've deemed it to be pointless. I'm fine with it being deleted, :).
 

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I'm just doubting that your analysis is accurate, I guess we can still keep it up, if someone wants to add something, or maybe when we get some indication that things are the way you say they are.
Also the fact that we already discussed CoC a great deal before this, this is why we prolly don't see how it can be used to intimidate people. We already know what it's used for, and I doubt it allowing Luffy to intimidate his opponents will be a game changer.
 
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