Contracts as spells - implications

[Ripcord]

In the beginning of ToG we had shinsoo and contracts. If you wanted to use shinsoo you needed a contract to do so- unless you were an irregular.

Then in Season 2 we learn about spells, that they don’t use shinsoo and have specific rules to them. Some of us here suspected contracts might be spells, such as@kkck I believe.

We also wondered if Bam was bound by the second floor contract or not. Sure the guardian gave it to him, BUT if the contract is a spell then I say it had zero effect whatsoever. Bam already had permission to use shinsoo as an irregular, so everyone would think the contract did it’s thing, so him not having it would make no difference.

In fact, Bam could go all the way up the tower making contracts with admins everywhere and they would have no effect on him, as we’ve seen he’s resistant to spells.

Take this a step further, Bam can break spells and if contracts are spells, then Bam can not only break the immortality contract of the family heads, he can also break Zahard’s king contract.

 

[toil]

I mostly like this theory since the first time I saw it, but there are a couple aspects I don’t like.

One is that if you think it through, it makes irregular status somewhat superfluous: we think only an irregular like Baam can kill Zahard—because, as an irregular, he can ignore a lot of tower rules—but under this theory that probably isn't quite right. The real situation would be "anyone can kill Zahard if they get access to strong-enough magic to cancel the relevant contracts, but—for some reason—Baam's the only known bearer of such magic (he's also an irregular, of course). SIU can address this easily, but until then it'd be reasonable to wonder "why didn't Arlene, like, crank out a ton of 'Arlene's Blessed +9000 needle of Contract Cancellation'-tier artifacts?"

The other is just a nagging sense that there's going to be a specific reason Arlene's diary explicitly discusses getting to a place without an administrator. I actually think this might work in favor of this theory—can't cast a stronger-than-admin-tier spell while the admin is around?—but it still feels weird due to the contract-cancellation aspect of the spell she cast on Baam...if she can cast a cancel-all spell, why can't she just cancel whatever holds her back? Feels off, somehow, but maybe not.

Despite this, I agree with the overall conclusion: if irregulars could just ignore contacts, any of the family heads could kill each other or Zahard, and, yet, they can't (Arlene can't even kill herself...right?). If Baam's going to wind up not subject to the contracts he's already made, then, either we need a new mechanism—spells could be that mechanism, and right now I'd bet they will be

 

[Echizen_Akira]

I'm not so sure about this. I mean the pocket said "contact complete" and the guardians statement about contracts being Baam's "shackles not strength" would be made redundant.

I would also be curious about how he breaks the contract. Would it be:
A: He touches the person who made the contract.
B: He touches the guardian who gave the contract.
C: A physical contract is created and he has to find and touch that.

If it's the same as spells "A" would be most likely, in which case wouldn't plenty of people have been rendered unable to use shinsoo after receiving one physical blow from Baam.

 

[toil]

On the one hand, wow, you’re right—it all you need is touch then Baam should be breaking contracts for everybody, and he hasn’t been (that we know of).

That said, FWIW I think SIU hasn’t thought through spells as carefully as he has a lot else—Levi is hilariously overpowered if you think about it, and it’s unusual for SIU to accidentally introduce someone with such a broken power (SIU’s power levels are blurry but “whoops, that guy is more powerful than I intended” isn’t a mistake he typically makes).

So I think spell-breaking is going to factor into Baam unshackling himself but there has to be more to it.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

In the beginning of ToG we had shinsoo and contracts. If you wanted to use shinsoo you needed a contract to do so- unless you were an irregular.

Then in Season 2 we learn about spells, that they don’t use shinsoo and have specific rules to them. Some of us here suspected contracts might be spells, such as@kkck I believe.

We also wondered if Bam was bound by the second floor contract or not. Sure the guardian gave it to him, BUT if the contract is a spell then I say it had zero effect whatsoever. Bam already had permission to use shinsoo as an irregular, so everyone would think the contract did it’s thing, so him not having it would make no difference.

In fact, Bam could go all the way up the tower making contracts with admins everywhere and they would have no effect on him, as we’ve seen he’s resistant to spells.

Take this a step further, Bam can break spells and if contracts are spells, then Bam can not only break the immortality contract of the family heads, he can also break Zahard’s king contract.

I agree with the theory but I have something hindering my Full support to It. It's that If contracts were spells, then It means everyone is more than capable of performing spells at a Basic level, and It doesn't seem to be the case. Also, If It was the other way around, and spells were contracts, then they would be restricted to the Floor where the Guardian that made the contract had authority. So It appears as they cannot be used interchangeably, they aren't the same in any way.

I do think they are similar tho. Whatever YHS did to Rak's size, the teleportation of YHS and Evankhell to Karakka's dimension, all feel similar to the spells' effects.

IF we consider that current contracts are actually Just one form of contract, 'guardian contracts', then It might be that spells are equivalent to a higher form of contract specifically, one independent of Guardians and inaccessible to everyone. But that opens up another problem: who is this contract setup with? The Tower itself? Have we heard of anything or anyone talking with the Tower as an actual entity?

The Tower does have a Will of its own apparently, its known that Guides get info straight from It, but is It conscious or able to comunicate with? Not saying It is Impossible, only that we have no solid basis for assuming It yet.

 

[Ripcord]

I agree with the theory but I have something hindering my Full support to It. It's that If contracts were spells, then It means everyone is more than capable of performing spells at a Basic level, and It doesn't seem to be the case. Also, If It was the other way around, and spells were contracts, then they would be restricted to the Floor where the Guardian that made the contract had authority. So It appears as they cannot be used interchangeably, they aren't the same in any way.

I do think they are similar tho. Whatever YHS did to Rak's size, the teleportation of YHS and Evankhell to Karakka's dimension, all feel similar to the spells' effects.

IF we consider that current contracts are actually Just one form of contract, 'guardian contracts', then It might be that spells are equivalent to a higher form of contract specifically, one independent of Guardians and inaccessible to everyone. But that opens up another problem: who is this contract setup with? The Tower itself? Have we heard of anything or anyone talking with the Tower as an actual entity?

The Tower does have a Will of its own apparently, its known that Guides get info straight from It, but is It conscious or able to comunicate with? Not saying It is Impossible, only that we have no solid basis for assuming It yet.

You make some good points. First, my thought was that the administrators were actually the ones performing the spell (to make the contract), but from what we know the person casting the spell and the medium to apply it are different beings. I wonder then who the medium was for Gustang’s spell on the souls on the FoD.

From White it seems that someone can cast a spell on themselves, so maybe you’re right and everyone can cast a basic spell with the help of the admins. We know that the pocket is required to make contracts with the admin, perhaps this enables the ability - similar time a shinsoo wand that was made with a contract, maybe pockets contain a spell that allow users to perform a basic spell to make contracts.