Yes, he could beat him if he received from the DK AS MUCH power AS Escanor/ Mael received from the SD. Mael was not the son of the SD, so without considering the graces/commandments, Zeldris has the advantage of possessing the royal blood (very high potential).
The commandments can be turned into raw power, that's what Meliodas is doing and Estarossa already did. Estarossa lied about being Meliodas while he had absorbed Truth. Why didn't he turn to stone then? Because the decree was no longer active, having been turned into power.
Galand's PL was 27,000. Estarossa gained 28,000 from Truth, Galand's decree. Are you telling me that Galand's original PL was -1,000?
I said that they give you boost when you absorb more than one. So with two, you get stronger, but the effects of the curse disappear. Estarossa is currently much stronger but Love, Truth and Reticence are no longer in effect. Derrierie, the Sins and other clearly hate him and they are not unable to attack.
OK. I get it. I was saying something similar.
Yeah right. Let's ignore that Monspiet said that Mel and Zel were geniuses while Estarossa was below average and a shame to his clan. Let's ignore that Zeldris has a second mark. I like Zeldris more than Estarossa but I am not the type of person who will deny that Estarossa is naturally stronger if you have good arguments.
Well, it doesn't work like that. If your PL are similar, nothing says that the one with the higher PL will win.
No guarantee? We saw him curse Merlin with Hellblaze. And Merlin only lasted this long because of her resistance to curses. Until proven otherwise, Escanor has no curse resistance or immunity so as long as the power gap is not too wide he could beat him with that move. You need Goddess tier magic to dispel it.
umm.. again. we are back to the old point.. why would absorbing two c will increase pl.. but one wont? all the commandments.. already absorbed one decree.. they already got a boost.. thats the only logical conclusion.. if it doesn't.. thats like saying.. even tho dk shared 50% of his power.. only 45% will work.. the other 5% wont incrase pl.. cause of.. reasons?
btw.. i was trying to say.. mael is anywhere above or equal to 60k..(wrote wrong )
umm. im not ignoring what mons said.. its just that.. im also not ignoring what chusak said.. you could make an argument that we got newer info from mons.. n chusaks was older.. n it could be true.. but it was still an info.. n if mons knows that much about esta.. it makes zero sense that chusak.. a master of one of the dk son.. doesnt know about it.. specially when mons said everyone except esta knows about him being a failure.. n yet chusak compared them.. my point is.. i wont ignore either of their hints.. n take one sides word more importantly.. besides.. we have more reasons to take chusak seriously than mons.. cause.. 1.chusak is regarded as more important person than mons.. 2.chusak is a senior demon.. and higher tier than mons.. 3.mons hellblaze was a joke even tho he was said to have one of the strongest hellblaze.. it didnt do anything to esta at all.. even still.. i could agree that their statements importance is equal.. to take mons moee seriously than chusak.. no.. sorry..
i never said if pl are similar.. one with higher one will win.. but if they are not similar.. n have considerable difference.. then the stronger one has always won uptil now.. so most likely the stronger one will win.. unless its ban merlin or gowther.. cause.. ban can steal.. merlin is the most haxed character uptil now id say.. potentially more haxed than chandler.. but in a straight uo fight.. she will lose.. also.. gowther could fuck up with ones mind.. which is also hax..
so.. my point was.. if pl are 60k and 61k.. it could go either way.. but if its 114k and 142k.. i think we all know where it went..
and merlin came out of it.. so it wasnt a hax that is on merlins level.. who literally left her own body.. created a box that can trap two people at the same time fighting each other whose power levels are 114k and 142k.. thats a next level shit.. besides.. we havent seen enough about zel to determine exactly how strong he really is.. for now.. he is below esta and meliodas..
umm.. again. we are back to the old point.. why would absorbing two c will increase pl.. but one wont? all the commandments.. already absorbed one decree.. they already got a boost.. thats the only logical conclusion.. if it doesn't.. thats like saying.. even tho dk shared 50% of his power.. only 45% will work.. the other 5% wont incrase pl.. cause of.. reasons?
Because the effects are different? I mentioned the loss of the curses' triggers for example. Estarossa has Truth, Love and Reticence but others can lie to him and hate him and it won't do anything.
umm. im not ignoring what mons said.. its just that.. im also not ignoring what chusak said.. you could make an argument that we got newer info from mons.. n chusaks was older.. n it could be true.. but it was still an info.. n if mons knows that much about esta.. it makes zero sense that chusak.. a master of one of the dk son.. doesnt know about it.. specially when mons said everyone except esta knows about him being a failure.. n yet chusak compared them.. my point is.. i wont ignore either of their hints.. n take one sides word more importantly.. besides.. we have more reasons to take chusak seriously than mons.. cause.. 1.chusak is regarded as more important person than mons.. 2.chusak is a senior demon.. and higher tier than mons.. 3.mons hellblaze was a joke even tho he was said to have one of the strongest hellblaze.. it didnt do anything to esta at all.. even still.. i could agree that their statements importance is equal.. to take mons moee seriously than chusak.. no.. sorry..
Cusack is not a Commandment, the DK revealed this to the Commandments, he was ashamed of Estarossa. Cusack doesn't know the source of his instability so it's clear he isn't informed. Also, as I said already we have the facts: Mel and Zel are the geniuses, Estarossa is not. Zel has a second mark, Estarossa doesn't. Zeldris is stronger, it is simple. Without Love Estarossa would not even have PoD.
i never said if pl are similar.. one with higher one will win.. but if they are not similar.. n have considerable difference.. then the stronger one has always won uptil now.. so most likely the stronger one will win.. unless its ban merlin or gowther.. cause.. ban can steal.. merlin is the most haxed character uptil now id say.. potentially more haxed than chandler.. but in a straight uo fight.. she will lose.. also.. gowther could fuck up with ones mind.. which is also hax.. so.. my point was.. if pl are 60k and 61k.. it could go either way.. but if its 114k and 142k.. i think we all know where it went..
If the difference is considerable? I agree then. But Magic and fighting styles always matter.
and merlin came out of it.. so it wasnt a hax that is on merlins level.. who literally left her own body.. created a box that can trap two people at the same time fighting each other whose power levels are 114k and 142k.. thats a next level shit.. besides.. we havent seen enough about zel to determine exactly how strong he really is.. for now.. he is below esta and meliodas..
Merlin came out of it, despite her blessings only because Elizabeth healed her. Without Elizabeth she would have died, her blessings made her resist to it longer and that is something Escanor doesn't have. We don't know how strong Zeldris is yes, but he is stronger than Estarossa, it is now obvious(I am not talking about the current Assault Mode Estarossa).
Because the effects are different? I mentioned the loss of the curses' triggers for example. Estarossa has Truth, Love and Reticence but others can lie to him and hate him and it won't do anything.
Cusack is not a Commandment, the DK revealed this to the Commandments, he was ashamed of Estarossa. Cusack doesn't know the source of his instability so it's clear he isn't informed. Also, as I said already we have the facts: Mel and Zel are the geniuses, Estarossa is not. Zel has a second mark, Estarossa doesn't. Zeldris is stronger, it is simple. Without Love Estarossa would not even have PoD.
If the difference is considerable? I agree then. But Magic and fighting styles always matter.
Merlin came out of it, despite her blessings only because Elizabeth healed her. Without Elizabeth she would have died, her blessings made her resist to it longer and that is something Escanor doesn't have. We don't know how strong Zeldris is yes, but he is stronger than Estarossa, it is now obvious(I am not talking about the current Assault Mode Estarossa).
uhh. no.. you have 0 prove that taking in one decree doesnt increase pl.. but its common sense if you get a boost by absorbing 2 decree(a fact) then you get a boost by absorbing 1 as well.. until its shown that it doesnt.. that theory doesn't make sense..
you are right chusak is not a commandment.. his position n is higher.. n also more respectable than a mere commandments lol.. they were said to be capable of fulfilling 8 missing commandments.. n they were teachers of dks sons! lol.. n those commandments were working under meliodas n zels.. idk how a worker will know so much but someone who is allowed to roam around with dks kids wont know.. sorry.. i dont agree at all that mons knew more than chusak.. ill just keep it at that until we get some solid proof that says otherwise!
of course fighting style n magic matters.. thats why i said merlin ban n gowther were different?! or did you miss the next sentence?! there was no need to tell me that when i said that in the next line..
umm you are missing the point.. merlin got affected after a very long time.. like a whole night/day.. if someone who's physically as weak as merlin could handle it for that long.. im pretty sure it wont do much on someone on estas level or higher like escanor xD.. even if it did.. not in the middle of a battle.. but you are free to disagree..
we dont know how strong zel is.. thats exactly why we cant assume he is stronger.. if you are gonna say he got a 2nd form.. esta also killed the strongest arch.. you could say he probably sneak attacked or bla bla.. but thats just assuming.. not only you are assuming zel is stronger than hes been shown by feats (tho i agree that assumption is most likely correct or was until he gave up his decree) but also assuming esta doesn't doesnt have any hidden powers (even tho he killed mael.. umm diesnt make sense.. seems like you are fanboying over zel.. which is not bad.. but putting other character down.. uhh sorry but thats something very childish.. not that im saying he obviously does have hidden powers.. but thats obviously a possibility) so yeah.. you are totally ignoring esta killed mael.. n yeah.. i wouldnt be so shitty as to bring current esta.. you obviously didnt mean that xD or i wouldn't even bother to explain at all!
uhh. no.. you have 0 prove that taking in one decree doesnt increase pl.. but its common sense if you get a boost by absorbing 2 decree(a fact) then you get a boost by absorbing 1 as well.. until its shown that it doesnt.. that theory doesn't make sense..
I am using your logic. Answer to my question then, 1 Commandment gives you the ability to curse people who trigger it, Estarossa has three so why don't they activate? He has three, right? So he must be able to curse people with the three Commandments.
you are right chusak is not a commandment.. his position n is higher.. n also more respectable than a mere commandments lol.. they were said to be capable of fulfilling 8 missing commandments.. n they were teachers of dks sons! lol.. n those commandments were working under meliodas n zels.. idk how a worker will know so much but someone who is allowed to roam around with dks kids wont know.. sorry.. i dont agree at all that mons knew more than chusak.. ill just keep it at that until we get some solid proof that says otherwise!
It's not been said that his position is higher. And even if he is it doesn't mean he has to know everything. Cusack himself is wondering why Estarossa is like that, he doesn't know.
umm you are missing the point.. merlin got affected after a very long time.. like a whole night/day.. if someone who's physically as weak as merlin could handle it for that long.. im pretty sure it wont do much on someone on estas level or higher like escanor xD.. even if it did.. not in the middle of a battle.. but you are free to disagree..
Physical ability has nothing to do with this, nothing. Merlin has the SD's blessing against Demon curses, she got cursed and she was still dying. It also didn't take a whole night, and I was not talking about Estarossa in particular but all the others who don't have Goddess healing and blessings. I mentioned Escanor because of the topic(Can Zeldris beat Escanor?) and I am saying that with this move Zeldris can kill him as long as their PLs are similar.
we dont know how strong zel is.. thats exactly why we cant assume he is stronger.. if you are gonna say he got a 2nd form.. esta also killed the strongest arch.. you could say he probably sneak attacked or bla bla.. but thats just assuming.. not only you are assuming zel is stronger than hes been shown by feats (tho i agree that assumption is most likely correct or was until he gave up his decree) but also assuming esta doesn't doesnt have any hidden powers (even tho he killed mael.. umm diesnt make sense.. seems like you are fanboying over zel.. which is not bad.. but putting other character down.. uhh sorry but thats something very childish.. not that im saying he obviously does have hidden powers.. but thats obviously a possibility) so yeah.. you are totally ignoring esta killed mael.. n yeah.. i wouldnt be so shitty as to bring current esta.. you obviously didnt mean that xD or i wouldn't even bother to explain at all!
Feels like you are biased towards Estarossa and are denying the obvious. We know he is stronger than Estarossa. Estarossa killed Mael and is weaker than the weakest Archangels, I am one of those who think he beat him fair and square but that Mael's PL was similar to Escanor at the beginning of their fight. Zeldris has some good feats even though he has yet to have a satisfying battle.
Zeldris's PL is 61K, Esta is 60K. Zeldris has a 2nd mark which raises his PL a lot. How can Estarossa hope to beat Zeldris when he is limited to 60K? He can't.
I am using your logic. Answer to my question then, 1 Commandment gives you the ability to curse people who trigger it, Estarossa has three so why don't they activate? He has three, right? So he must be able to curse people with the three Commandments.
It's not been said that his position is higher. And even if he is it doesn't mean he has to know everything. Cusack himself is wondering why Estarossa is like that, he doesn't know.
Physical ability has nothing to do with this, nothing. Merlin has the SD's blessing against Demon curses, she got cursed and she was still dying. It also didn't take a whole night, and I was not talking about Estarossa in particular but all the others who don't have Goddess healing and blessings. I mentioned Escanor because of this topic and I am saying that with this move Zeldris can kill him as long as their PLs are similar.
Feels like you are biased towards Estarossa and are denying the obvious. We know he is stronger than Estarossa. Estarossa killed Mael and is weaker than the weakest Archangels, I am one of those who think he beat him fair and square but that Mael's PL was similar to Escanor at the beginning of their fight. Zeldris has some good feats even though he has yet to have a satisfying battle.
Zeldris's PL is 61K, Esta is 60K. Zeldris has a 2nd mark which raises his PL a lot. How can Estarossa hope to beat Zeldris when he is limited to 60K? He can't.
sorry.. you are not using my logic.. also.. i dont know the answer.. because it was never explained? im not the author lol.. but it was shown that absorbing a decree gives boost.. so im also assuming absorbing a decree boost pl..
while do think physical ability has something to do with it . the better your physical abilities are.. the longer you can handle it.. but yeah.. you got a point.. my mind slipped for a second there.. merlin has resistance.. n it seems to be doing most of the works.. but question is will zel even be able to cast it upon escanor when he is on guard.. he even blitzed estarossa when he wasnt even at his top form.. if casting a magic on someone was so easy.. im pretty sure merlin wouldve ended the war.. but yeah.. i agree.. you got a valid point there..
umm.. no.. im not biased.. im only supporting esta this much cause you are putting esta down that much.. tho my choice of supporting esta is cause i like him.. but im being just as much biased thats needed to to counter you putting him down.. lol xD!
while it is possible.. that mael was on the same level escanor was.. but that still contradicts whats been shown.. the archangels are able to summon dimensions suitable for their grace.. unless its been shown that mael couldn't.. thats just an assumption that mael was that weak.. also.. that bold part is an assumption.. no need to bold your own assumption lol xD :v lmao!
umm.. because.. we dont know for sure that esta is limited to 60k? and exactly hoe much boost does zel get from his 2nd release? also.. fighting abilties loke you mentioned also matters?
i would like to mention that esta stopped an attack from meliodas that mons thought to be enoug to deal with all the commandments.. n said not again by the same man or something.. just before esta killed meli.. so.. yeah.. that feat alonr trumps anything zel has shown.. but its not a can esta beat zel discussion.. so i wont stretch it.. just that.. like you said.. fighting style matter..
back to the main discussion.. zel cant beat escanor.. his only chance is t become demon king.. or absorb most of the decrees.. n he wont even see let alone touch escanor in one of his top forms.. with his current power level.. even with his 2nd release.. his only chance is to take him out before sun rises.. because even at sunrise.. he is 50k..
i would like to mention that esta stopped an attack from meliodas that mons thought to be enoug to deal with all the commandments.. n said not again by the same man or something.. just before esta killed meli.. so.. yeah.. that feat alonr trumps anything zel has shown..
Umm it think it's really obvious that it was because of his commandment, or are you suggesting that Estarossa is stronger than all of the Commandments combined? From what we have seen in the manga i'm 100% sure it was because of the commandment, also they were against a 56k cursed Meliodas (cursed with Piety and Love at the very lest), and not vs a 142k+ Meliodas so it doesn't really count as a feat since he was stronger than Meliodas even without the curse activating (but not stronger than the Revenge Counter).
back to the main discussion.. zel cant beat escanor.. his only chance is t become demon king.. or absorb most of the decrees.. n he wont even see let alone touch escanor in one of his top forms.. with his current power level.. even with his 2nd release.. his only chance is to take him out before sun rises.. because even at sunrise.. he is 50k..
We don't know what "God" does, and let's assume the 2nd demon mark is 75-80k max. We know that Escanor is bad against really strong magic opponents and Zeldris is a lot more skilled than him, he can manage somehow unless it's 120-130k+ Escanor against him (11:58/59 Escanor). Also if "God" can seal Escanor's magic - AKA his grace then he will just go to night Escanor and it's gg for him, that said we don't know how strong Zeldris' magic seal is so maybe he can seal 50-60k Escanor but not 114k+, we don't know.
sorry.. you are not using my logic.. also.. i dont know the answer.. because it was never explained? im not the author lol.. but it was shown that absorbing a decree gives boost.. so im also assuming absorbing a decree boost pl..
It was shown that absorbing two gives a boost, not absorbing one. You can't explain why the curse doesn't work anymore but reject what I said and you have no proof that having only one gives a boost so, I will keep assuming that they don't when they have only one.
while do think physical ability has something to do with it . the better your physical abilities are.. the longer you can handle it.. but yeah.. you got a point.. my mind slipped for a second there.. merlin has resistance.. n it seems to be doing most of the works.. but question is will zel even be able to cast it upon escanor when he is on guard.. he even blitzed estarossa when he wasnt even at his top form.. if casting a magic on someone was so easy.. im pretty sure merlin wouldve ended the war.. but yeah.. i agree.. you got a valid point there..
I said the Escanor he fought at the beginning, who was not fast enough to blitz him. Hitting people with Magic is not that hard and Merlin is not that strong. Zeldris cursed her through Hellblaze. He can do the same to Escanor, as long as his PL is not much higher, hitting Escanor won't be difficult at all.
umm.. no.. im not biased.. im only supporting esta this much cause you are putting esta down that much.. tho my choice of supporting esta is cause i like him.. but im being just as much biased thats needed to to counter you putting him down.. lol xD!
while it is possible.. that mael was on the same level escanor was.. but that still contradicts whats been shown.. the archangels are able to summon dimensions suitable for their grace.. unless its been shown that mael couldn't.. thats just an assumption that mael was that weak.. also.. that bold part is an assumption.. no need to bold your own assumption lol xD :v lmao!
It's not as if I am saying all of this about Estarossa because I hate him or anything. It is simply a fact that he is inferior to his brothers, it has been said in the manga. He is weaker than both Meliodas and Zeldris.
umm.. because.. we dont know for sure that esta is limited to 60k? and exactly hoe much boost does zel get from his 2nd release? also.. fighting abilties loke you mentioned also matters?
What? We know. That's his PL and he has no second mark. We don't know how much Zeldris's second mark boosts him, but I think it's safe to say that it gives at least a 20K boost. Even if it's something like 10K, it is more than enough. Fighting abilities? Yeah, Zeldris doesn't seem inferior to his brother at all in that department. No matter how you slice it, you can't make Zeldris appear weaker than his brother here. Superior talent, higher PL, powerful Magic and 2nd mark. Zeldris is stronger.
i would like to mention that esta stopped an attack from meliodas that mons thought to be enoug to deal with all the commandments.. n said not again by the same man or something.. just before esta killed meli.. so.. yeah.. that feat alonr trumps anything zel has shown.. but its not a can esta beat zel discussion.. so i wont stretch it.. just that.. like you said.. fighting style matter..
It is pretty obvious that it was because of Love. You are not going to tell me that he was able to stop that, but he was somehow unable to stop much weaker attack? Sariel and Tarmiel can beat him easily 1 on 1.
Zeldris can't beat Escanor with a single commandment's power. Absorbing more commandments will give Zeldris more power and then he could beat Escanor. Meliodas and Zeldris are able to absorb more commandments without losing their sanity or having any after effects which seems to be the situation for Estarossa. Estarossa has become more crazy, and deranged.
Umm it think it's really obvious that it was because of his commandment, or are you suggesting that Estarossa is stronger than all of the Commandments combined? From what we have seen in the manga i'm 100% sure it was because of the commandment, also they were against a 56k cursed Meliodas (cursed with Piety and Love at the very lest), and not vs a 142k+ Meliodas so it doesn't really count as a feat since he was stronger than Meliodas even without the curse activating (but not stronger than the Revenge Counter).
We don't know what "God" does, and let's assume the 2nd demon mark is 75-80k max. We know that Escanor is bad against really strong magic opponents and Zeldris is a lot more skilled than him, he can manage somehow unless it's 120-130k+ Escanor against him (11:58/59 Escanor). Also if "God" can seal Escanor's magic - AKA his grace then he will just go to night Escanor and it's gg for him, that said we don't know how strong Zeldris' magic seal is so maybe he can seal 50-60k Escanor but not 114k+, we don't know.
umm.. i think we all knew what you said about estas commandment.. my point was.. just because it was HIS commandments.. doesnt make it not HIS feat.. i was simply saying that was a better feat than anything zel has done.. also.. zels decree only stops from retreating if i remember correctly.. it doesnt effect the flow of a fight when none is retreating.. also.. like i said before.. zel has nothing on that feat let alone estas other.. and if you are going to ignore estas feat cause it was his commandment.. are you going to ignore the archangels feats as well sinceit was their grace?! im pretty sure you wont..
lol i can feel that you are trying hard.. but ill say this.. there is a lot of assuming.. maybe.. and ifs.. in your opinion.. so yeah..
not only you assumed zels released state power level (which was a nice guess considering we dont know anything but he is not on meliodas level)
but you also assumed how his magic works (lol xD)
you also assumed that escanor.. who was going toe to toe with estarossa.. who has better physical stat that zel.. will give zel enough time to cast his magic.. should i meantion that esta had physical full counter.. so escanor was in a ver bad spotn still managed to be a great challenge.. or are you going to neglect that feat of his? zel is nothing.. xD! also.. escanor has decent magic n if it hits zel will go be knocked out cold.. even if we ignore escanors physical.. his greatest attribute.. n since zel doesnt have physical full counter he will in trouble just like he was when meliodas scared him with his revenge counter n he almost shit his pants xD
also.. esta wasnt even scratched by Elizabeth's ark and broke through it with his darkness.. which i mention.. blew the indura derieris arm.. who is stronger than normal derieri..
and he also survived monspeets hellblaze.. who was said to be one if the strongest Hellblaze user.. n came out without much trouble..
and escanor is equal if not above that esta even at his one of the weakest form.. so yeah.. (lets be honest.. if it was someone else other than esta.. or esta didnt have full counter.. it wouldve gone in escanors favor 7/10 times)
sorry to say.. i cant agree with your statement that escanor is bad against magic.. ill go to next point..
if zel couldve just as easily seal a 60k escanor.. he wouldve done that.. he didnt.. so if anything.. that assuming has counters directly from the manga.. all you could say against it.. is oh he didnt feel like doing so in a war even tho he is leading.. its not a big deal if he just messes around n lets the strongest fighter in front of him live.. while he watches the fight.. see what i did there? xD
also.. while we dont know how strong zel is.. we have a vogue idea.. according to chusak.. he is comparable to esta.. n he was zels master..
and according to mons.. zel n meli has equal potential.. n are the only ones who can absorb commandments other than their own without going nust..
let me clear one thing.. potential =/= how strong one is at the moment.. its how strong they can be.. if potential decided the outcome.. gohan would beat UI.. or at least ssb(since they said as a ssb that gohan still has the most potential in dbs)
thats my argument.. n since esta himself couldn't beat escanor.. who according to chusak.. equal to if not stronger than zel.. also.. mons hinted about how strong zel could be.. not how strong he is..
zel wont be beating escanor.. escanor is meliodas rival.. who could trash zel..
could zel beat escanor? sure.. when he is weaker than zel.. but i doubt the OP would want an answer likr that.. he/she probably wanted to know if zel can beat the escanor who beat estarossa or was getting beat by estarossa.. my answer is.. no he cant.
It was shown that absorbing two gives a boost, not absorbing one. You can't explain why the curse doesn't work anymore but reject what I said and you have no proof that having only one gives a boost so, I will keep assuming that they don't when they have only one.
I said the Escanor he fought at the beginning, who was not fast enough to blitz him. Hitting people with Magic is not that hard and Merlin is not that strong. Zeldris cursed her through Hellblaze. He can do the same to Escanor, as long as his PL is not much higher, hitting Escanor won't be difficult at all.
It's not as if I am saying all of this about Estarossa because I hate him or anything. It is simply a fact that he is inferior to his brothers, it has been said in the manga. He is weaker than both Meliodas and Zeldris.
What? We know. That's his PL and he has no second mark. We don't know how much Zeldris's second mark boosts him, but I think it's safe to say that it gives at least a 20K boost. Even if it's something like 10K, it is more than enough. Fighting abilities? Yeah, Zeldris doesn't seem inferior to his brother at all in that department. No matter how you slice it, you can't make Zeldris appear weaker than his brother here. Superior talent, higher PL, powerful Magic and 2nd mark. Zeldris is stronger.
It is pretty obvious that it was because of Love. You are not going to tell me that he was able to stop that, but he was somehow unable to stop much weaker attack? Sariel and Tarmiel can beat him easily 1 on 1.
lol the first part of your teply seems like a childish reply.. its called arguing for the sake of arguing.. so maybe you should tell all those who said that meliodas with 5 commandments is Stronger than esta the same thing? since we only saw.. absorbing 2 and 3 commandments give power boost.. not 5 xD let me know how they replies.. lmao
while i do agree that zel has chance against the escanor that didnt blitz.. but lol! you cant compare merlin with zel.. merlins reaction is fast as hell! the galand that trashed meliodas.. wasnt able to take down merlin.. she was fast enough to get out of her physical body even tho she couldn't move.. besides.. merlin has lived way longer than zel.. n she n meliodas has lived equal amount of time with the current info.. n since merlin is pure magic.. her casting speed has to be way faster than zel who we haven't even seen using his god magic yet.. n its ridiculous to even compare someone who was around for not even 300 years to someone who has been a pure mage for 3k+ years..
umm no.. it hasnt been said esta is weaker than zel n mel.. it was said that he WAS weaker as a child.. n it has been stated by chusak that esta is equal if not stronger than zel.. also.. mons talked about only zel n meli could handle other decrees than themselves.. thats what we call what they potentially could do.. not what they can do.. n if you are going to get stuck with that statement.. maybe we should say esta=meliodas.. since meliodas himself ssid to esta that he can be just like him one day? xD
read my answer to the other guy about the esta n meli thing..
also.. if you are gonna say that oh its only his commandment.. maybe you shouldve also said.. oh its only their graces.. when it came to the archs.. should i remind you that esta blitz both arch's before they started using their grace with only his base level? n cut both of them? n survived an ark from Elizabeth which was comparable to an arch (-grace).. means.. no.. they arent going to defeat esta as easily without their graces.. also.. should i remind you that.. estas decree was useless against the arch's as well? so.. if someone has the same power level as the archs doesn't guarantee their win against esta either.. since they will still be vulnerable against his commandment.. n if it is zel.. that means.. while estas c will can no effect.. means zel will be in the same situation as well..
also.. like i said.. assuming.. there too much you are assuming.. if we start assuming.. i could assume a lot too.. but most of what i said are facts.. notice.. i said most..
also.. esta killed mael.. we dont know about that anything yet.. so.. while you could assume zels power level.. its also just as fair to assume esta has hidded powers to take out the strongest arch.. so.. until wr get a confirmation.. assuming like this wont help you or me
at the end.. my answer to escanor vs zel is still the same.. as before.. zel doesnt stand a chance..
umm.. i think we all knew what you said about estas commandment.. my point was.. just because it was HIS commandments.. doesnt make it not HIS feat.. i was simply saying that was a better feat than anything zel has done.. also.. zels decree only stops from retreating if i remember correctly.. it doesnt effect the flow of a fight when none is retreating.. also.. like i said before.. zel has nothing on that feat let alone estas other.. and if you are going to ignore estas feat cause it was his commandment.. are you going to ignore the archangels feats as well sinceit was their grace?! im pretty sure you wont..
lol i can feel that you are trying hard.. but ill say this.. there is a lot of assuming.. maybe.. and ifs.. in your opinion.. so yeah..
not only you assumed zels released state power level (which was a nice guess considering we dont know anything but he is not o meliodas level)
but you also assumed what his magic does (lol xD)
you also assumed thta escanor.. who blitzed estarossa.. who has better physical stat that zel.. will let zel cast hus magic.. should i meantion that esta.. who had full counter didnt even see escanors attack comming? or are you going to neglect that feat of his? escanor blitzed one of the strongest physical based character.. zel is nothing.. xD
also.. esta was completely unaffected by mons(who wqs said to be one of te greatest gellblaze wielder) hellblaze that he obviously put everything in.. since it was his last attack before dying..
and wasnt even scratched by Elizabeth's ark and blasted through it with his darkness.. which i mention.. blew a indura derieris arm.. who is stringer than normal derieri..
so.. just because he got trashed by two of the strongest magic attacks we have seen so far(dimensions and whatever that attack was thats suppose to disintegrate a demon n leaves them unable to regenerate).. also.. it didnt do what it was suppose to anyways.. but i guess we could say that its because galands commandments?
if zel couldve just as easily seal a 60k esta.. he wouldve done that.. he didnt.. so if anything.. that assuming has counters directly from the manga..
also.. while we dont know how strong zel is.. we have a vogue idea.. according to chusak.. he is comparable to esta.. n he was zels master..
and according to mons.. zel n meli has equal potential.. n are the only ones who can absorb commandments other than their own without going nust..
let me clear one thing.. potential =/= how strong one is at the moment.. its how strong cmthey can be.. if potent a decided the outcome.. goha would beat UI.. or at leats ssb(since they saif as assb that gohan still has the most potential in dbs)
thats my argument.. n since esta himself couldn't beat escanor.. who according to chusak.. equal to if not stronger than zel.. also.. mons hinted about how strong zel could be.. not how strong he is..
zel wont be beating escanor.. escanor is meliodas rival.. who eoukd trash zel..
could zel beat escanor? sure.. when he is weaker than zel.. but i doubt the OP would want an answer likr that.. he/she probably wanted to know if zel can beat the escanor who beat estarossa or was getting beat by estarossa.. my answer is.. no he cant.
I count that as a feat but the point is that it's not because he's that strong, it's because of his commandment that's what i was trying to say.
Yes those are my opinions and i'm not trying hard xD it's actually fun to make walls of text but i usually skip that because people find it annoying to read.
No i did not assume what his magic does, his magic can seal other magic and that's the only thing we know, so he can probably do other things with "God".
Estarossa survived Monspiet's attack because he's really strong physically, and because of plot obviously.
Estarossa (base) is stronger and has a better physical stat than Zeldris only when Zeldris is in his base. He has a 2nd demon mark which logically should boost his strength stat to something like 60k or so, which is higher than Estarossa's.
Elizabeth blew up Derieri's hand when she wasn't an indura btw, also i'm not an Elizabeth fan or anything but i think the ark was there to move him away and not to hurt him as we've seen other ark's staying in one place and hurting the oponents rather than moving them away.
If it wasn't for the commandments, Estarossa would've been long gone by now. So the attack did what it was supposed to.
Zeldris has nothing to seal on base Estarossa because his magic is so bad compared to him, and he can definitely seal base Estarossa's magic just like he sealed Dolor's magic when it was 16k i think, while Estarossa has 3k.
Also i don't know where it's stated that Meliodas and Zeldris have the same potential. We only know that they are geniuses and they are the only demons who can absorb more than 1 commandment and not self-destruct.
I also doubt that Zeldris will beat 114k Escanor just like that because there's nothing hinting that Zeldris can boost himself up to 114k. Still we have no idea how strong his magic sealing is, for example if 114k Escanor has 10k in magic and Zeldris is shown to seal 16k+ magic opponents then Escanor is RIP, unless he kills Zeldris before he can seal his magic. And we don't know all the abilities of "God" so Nakaba can literally come up with anything.
There is nothing showing me that Estarossa is stronger than Zeldris in any way. One has a 2nd demon mark and "God" while the other has nothing except his own commandment (i'm not counting this Estarossa because this will end soon, and it's not his own power).
This got a bit off topic, we should stop with Estarossa related things
I count that as a feat but the point is that it's not because he's that strong, it's because of his commandment that's what i was trying to say.
Yes those are my opinions and i'm not trying hard xD it's actually fun to make walls of text but i usually skip that because people find it annoying to read.
No i did not assume what his magic does, his magic can seal other magic and that's the only thing we know, so he can probably do other things with "God".
Estarossa survived Monspiet's attack because he's really strong physically, and because of plot obviously.
Estarossa (base) is stronger and has a better physical stat than Zeldris only when Zeldris is in his base. He has a 2nd demon mark which logically should boost his strength stat to something like 60k or so, which is higher than Estarossa's.
Elizabeth blew up Derieri's hand when she wasn't an indura btw, also i'm not an Elizabeth fan or anything but i think the ark was there to move him away and not to hurt him as we've seen other ark's staying in one place and hurting the oponents rather than moving them away.
If it wasn't for the commandments, Estarossa would've been long gone by now. So the attack did what it was supposed to.
Zeldris has nothing to seal on base Estarossa because his magic is so bad compared to him, and he can definitely seal base Estarossa's magic just like he sealed Dolor's magic when it was 16k i think, while Estarossa has 3k.
Also i don't know where it's stated that Meliodas and Zeldris have the same potential. We only know that they are geniuses and they are the only demons who can absorb more than 1 commandment and not self-destruct.
I also doubt that Zeldris will beat 114k Escanor just like that because there's nothing hinting that Zeldris can boost himself up to 114k. Still we have no idea how strong his magic sealing is, for example if 114k Escanor has 10k in magic and Zeldris is shown to seal 16k+ magic opponents then Escanor is RIP, unless he kills Zeldris before he can seal his magic. And we don't know all the abilities of "God" so Nakaba can literally come up with anything.
There is nothing showing me that Estarossa is stronger than Zeldris in any way. One has a 2nd demon mark and "God" while the other has nothing except his own commandment (i'm not counting this Estarossa because this will end soon, and it's not his own power).
This got a bit off topic, we should stop with Estarossa related things
wait a minute.. i thought i edited my comment?! xD there are some problems o.O anyway.. lets go back to the argument..
its called hax.. if you dont count hax as feat.. then merlin is weak as hell.. n she has no feat.. xD also.. you might as well say.. it was the water n tornado.. if it wasnt for that.. esta wouldnt even be hurt.. again.. im gonna say.. love is a hax power.. in fact all commandments are haxed power.. you cant see its effects like you can see a dimension brought by a grace.. so yeah.. while i do understand where you are coming from.. it still goes to estas favor.. n like i said.. nothing zel did comes even close to that... hope that clears the first point..
plot or not.. estarossa only lost his shirt from that Hellblaze.. lol! (btw.. my point wasnt to let you know what esta did or not.. the whole point of mentioning it was.. esta took all that without much effort.. n escanor wouldve had upper against that same esta.. if he didnt have [physical full counter] full counter.. so anyone who doesnt have it.. even with the same strength as esta will be in trouble cause they dont have it.. that was the point.. xD)
i probably forgot to save.. but ill say again.. nothing suggests zel could do the same with escanor.. since escanors power increases every minute.. so even if zel manages to seal escanors magic.. within a minute.. it will appear again.. n i think zel will reach his limit first as sealing magic aint the only thing he is going to do.. n he cant effect the grace itself.. at least nothing sugests he can at the moment..
again.. the 60k is an assumption.. you are assuming that his released state boosts his physical stats.. it could also be his magic? so... unless we see it.. i cant really agree with that point..
oh lol sorry about that derieri thingy
again.. what you said abou Elizabeths arc is an assumption that contradicts what the manga says.. the archs clearly said it was impressive for anyone to come out of elis ark without any scratch.. i think if newbs like us can understand that it was just to push him away.. worriors like arch's (aka author san xD) wouldve noticed it too.. n they (again aka author san ) wouldnt say that it was impressive.. but they did.. so yeah.. i cant agree with what you said..
yes.. esta probably wouldve died without galands decree.. but no.. it didnt do what it was suppose to.. ill explain why..
1.it didnt even take out one eye or even a nail of esta let alone disintegrate him! lol..
2.the commandment added 28k to his base.. thats like 1/3 of his power (as 88k).. if 88k.. aka 3/3 comes out without any scratch.. i doubt 60k 2/3 will get disintegrated at all..!
3.it shouldve definitely disintegrated him even if he used 2 commandments.. since he was fighting against not one arch.. but two.. it wasn't the power of one dimension.. but two.. if one arch can disintegrate one commandment.. two should be able to do the same to two.. as well.. but it didnt.. so they over exaggerated.. n it didnt do what it was suppose to do.. or esta was really that OP..
i doubt zel will get the chance to seal estas magic that easily.. xD but thats just me.. i just dont think it will be a walk in the park like you make it sound like to be.. xD also.. if you are gonna say.. esta tanking mons without any scratch bull.. i could also say zel easily defeating drool king and trap king at the same time is also bull.. so going against the story will help neither..
by same potential i mean.. they are the only one who can become demon king.. as we know zel wanted to be dk.. n with his knowledge.. i dont think he wouldve said that if he didnt knew he could.. n so far.. zel n meli are the only candidate for dk.. n mons statement i suppose was to show that esta cant be dk like his brothers.. so.. i guess its safe to say zel n melis potential are same.. (by same i dont mean exactly equal.. but close.. melis own power will make a difference if they both hypothetically became dk) botom line is.. both can potentially become dk.. so it's safe to say their potential are same or at least close..
well.. i do agree.. characters tend to get stronger than expected even from the author because the plot demands it.. so god can be anything.. but so can be esta beating mael.. so.. we cant take what we dont know about.. it vould be useless.. or it could be game changer..
im pretty sure.. if esta.. with full counter (which is actually one of the best thing you could have against someone like escanor who depends on physical attacks.. what zel doesnt have) couldn't even see it coming.. let alone physically react.. even if by some miracle.. zel is like 5/10k above esta in strength in released state.. he still wont physically be able to react physically in time.. even if he somehow saw it.. so 114k it out of the question.. its a total defeat for zel even with a few(atleast 2) commandments +his own.. but the ladt part is only my opinion..
tbh.. i dont see zel winning against esta.. who killed the strongest arch.. (just like esta killing mael is hype.. zels god n release is also hype at the moment tbh) i just dont like to see one aspect n ignore the other..
yeah lol.. i didnt want to bring eta much.. but someone quoted my esta points.. n soon it became esta vs zel..
umm.. i think we all knew what you said about estas commandment.. my point was.. just because it was HIS commandments.. doesnt make it not HIS feat.. i was simply saying that was a better feat than anything zel has done.. also.. zels decree only stops from retreating if i remember correctly.. it doesnt effect the flow of a fight when none is retreating.. also.. like i said before.. zel has nothing on that feat let alone estas other.. and if you are going to ignore estas feat cause it was his commandment.. are you going to ignore the archangels feats as well sinceit was their grace?! im pretty sure you wont..
lol i can feel that you are trying hard.. but ill say this.. there is a lot of assuming.. maybe.. and ifs.. in your opinion.. so yeah..
not only you assumed zels released state power level (which was a nice guess considering we dont know anything but he is not on meliodas level)
but you also assumed how his magic works (lol xD)
you also assumed that escanor.. who was going toe to toe with estarossa.. who has better physical stat that zel.. will give zel enough time to cast his magic.. should i meantion that esta had physical full counter.. so escanor was in a ver bad spotn still managed to be a great challenge.. or are you going to neglect that feat of his? zel is nothing.. xD! also.. escanor has decent magic n if it hits zel will go be knocked out cold.. even if we ignore escanors physical.. his greatest attribute.. n since zel doesnt have physical full counter he will in trouble just like he was when meliodas scared him with his revenge counter n he almost shit his pants xD
also.. esta wasnt even scratched by Elizabeth's ark and broke through it with his darkness.. which i mention.. blew the indura derieris arm.. who is stronger than normal derieri..
and he also survived monspeets hellblaze.. who was said to be one if the strongest Hellblaze user.. n came out without much trouble..
and escanor is equal if not above that esta even at his one of the weakest form.. so yeah.. (lets be honest.. if it was someone else other than esta.. or esta didnt have full counter.. it wouldve gone in escanors favor 7/10 times)
sorry to say.. i cant agree with your statement that escanor is bad against magic.. ill go to next point..
if zel couldve just as easily seal a 60k escanor.. he wouldve done that.. he didnt.. so if anything.. that assuming has counters directly from the manga.. all you could say against it.. is oh he didnt feel like doing so in a war even tho he is leading.. its not a big deal if he just messes around n lets the strongest fighter in front of him live.. while he watches the fight.. see what i did there? xD
also.. while we dont know how strong zel is.. we have a vogue idea.. according to chusak.. he is comparable to esta.. n he was zels master..
and according to mons.. zel n meli has equal potential.. n are the only ones who can absorb commandments other than their own without going nust..
let me clear one thing.. potential =/= how strong one is at the moment.. its how strong they can be.. if potential decided the outcome.. gohan would beat UI.. or at least ssb(since they said as a ssb that gohan still has the most potential in dbs)
thats my argument.. n since esta himself couldn't beat escanor.. who according to chusak.. equal to if not stronger than zel.. also.. mons hinted about how strong zel could be.. not how strong he is..
zel wont be beating escanor.. escanor is meliodas rival.. who could trash zel..
could zel beat escanor? sure.. when he is weaker than zel.. but i doubt the OP would want an answer likr that.. he/she probably wanted to know if zel can beat the escanor who beat estarossa or was getting beat by estarossa.. my answer is.. no he cant.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
lol the first part of your teply seems like a childish reply.. its called arguing for the sake of arguing.. so maybe you should tell all those who said that meliodas with 5 commandments is Stronger than esta the same thing? since we only saw.. absorbing 2 and 3 commandments give power boost.. not 5 xD let me know how they replies.. lmao
while i do agree that zel has chance against the escanor that didnt blitz.. but lol! you cant compare merlin with zel.. merlins reaction is fast as hell! the galand that trashed meliodas.. wasnt able to take down merlin.. she was fast enough to get out of her physical body even tho she couldn't move.. besides.. merlin has lived way longer than zel.. n she n meliodas has lived equal amount of time with the current info.. n since merlin is pure magic.. her casting speed has to be way faster than zel who we haven't even seen using his god magic yet.. n its ridiculous to even compare someone who was around for not even 300 years to someone who has been a pure mage for 3k+ years..
umm no.. it hasnt been said esta is weaker than zel n mel.. it was said that he WAS weaker as a child.. n it has been stated by chusak that esta is equal if not stronger than zel.. also.. mons talked about only zel n meli could handle other decrees than themselves.. thats what we call what they potentially could do.. not what they can do.. n if you are going to get stuck with that statement.. maybe we should say esta=meliodas.. since meliodas himself ssid to esta that he can be just like him one day? xD
read my answer to the other guy about the esta n meli thing..
also.. if you are gonna say that oh its only his commandment.. maybe you shouldve also said.. oh its only their graces.. when it came to the archs.. should i remind you that esta blitz both arch's before they started using their grace with only his base level? n cut both of them? n survived an ark from Elizabeth which was comparable to an arch (-grace).. means.. no.. they arent going to defeat esta as easily without their graces.. also.. should i remind you that.. estas decree was useless against the arch's as well? so.. if someone has the same power level as the archs doesn't guarantee their win against esta either.. since they will still be vulnerable against his commandment.. n if it is zel.. that means.. while estas c will can no effect.. means zel will be in the same situation as well..
also.. like i said.. assuming.. there too much you are assuming.. if we start assuming.. i could assume a lot too.. but most of what i said are facts.. notice.. i said most..
also.. esta killed mael.. we dont know about that anything yet.. so.. while you could assume zels power level.. its also just as fair to assume esta has hidded powers to take out the strongest arch.. so.. until wr get a confirmation.. assuming like this wont help you or me
at the end.. my answer to escanor vs zel is still the same.. as before.. zel doesnt stand a chance..
This is simple. I posted my thoughts and explained why I believe Commandments don't make you stronger unless you absorb more than one. You are free to disagree. But don't say that it's been confirmed that a Commandment makes you stronger because it's not been stated.
Estarossa is weaker than Zeldris. He killed Mael yes but we saw his performance against Sariel and Tarmiel. Hidden power? We saw his limits. Saying he has something more his wishful thinking or/and denial. The Archangels were not at full powers in their hosts at the beginning. Your bias for Estarossa is quite obvious here. But as said above this thread is not about him. Zeldris's PL= 61K, Estarossa's PL=60K. With the 2nd mark Zeldris is obviously much stronger.
I don't see why you are acting as if hitting someone with an attack is so complicated? We agree that Zeldris can beat Escanor if their PL are similar? Then it's fine. We can drop this discussion.
This is simple. I posted my thoughts and explained why I believe Commandments don't make you stronger unless you absorb more than one. You are free to disagree. But don't say that it's been confirmed that a Commandment makes you stronger because it's not been stated.
Estarossa is weaker than Zeldris. He killed Mael yes but we saw his performance against Sariel and Tarmiel. Hidden power? We saw his limits. Saying he has something more his wishful thinking or/and denial. The Archangels were not at full powers in their hosts at the beginning. Your bias for Estarossa is quite obvious here. But as said above this thread is not about him. Zeldris's PL= 61K, Estarossa's PL=60K. With the 2nd mark Zeldris is obviously much stronger.
I don't see why you are acting as if hitting someone with an attack is so complicated? We agree that Zeldris can beat Escanor if their PL are similar? Then it's fine. We can drop this discussion.
actually.. it has been confirmed.. because dk shared his power.. if you even share a single drop.. that means you got stronger than you are originally.. so yeah its a fact.. you can disgree if you want..
lol. im biased? the archs said if they kept using their body.. it would cause the body to grow up or have other symptoms.. nothing has been stated that confirms they were holding back.. it limits how long they could use their power.. but they got destroyed when they were using their power.. so yeah.. i think you are the one being biased..
because.. hitting someone is complicated when they can redirect it back at you? so escanor had hard time against esta? i dont see whats so hard to understand.. esta has full counter.. zel doesnt.. estas strength>zels strength.. we dont know if his release puts him above esta in terms of physical ability.. so thats just your assumption.. n if escanor can go toe to toe with esta.. he can beat zel..
no we cant agree if their power level are same zel wins.. lol! its not that simple.. yes zel has better chance.. but you are saying like as if zel will 10/10 against escanor with similar power level.. ill still give it a zel 3/7 escanor.. n at best 5/5 due to zels hype.. thats all..
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