Discussion Crocodile Discussion Thread

Hannibal Psyche

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Rather than getting adjusted to me it makes a tad more sense that crocodile was sort of dumbed down when he faced luffy at alabasta. Basically, it was the first two battles with luffy that actually represent their difference in strength. Luffy had a chance to learn crocodile's moves and for plot reasons was able to continue fighting even after he was almost mummified.

As far as doflamingo offering crocodile a chance to be his henchmen, I am not sure that is an insult. Doflamingo did not even allow bellamy to be his henchman and the guy turned out to be respectably powerful in the end. In the end crocodile remains one of the more accomplished DF users we have seen even if his physical capacity is not top notch. His attacks conveniently do not need physical strength and would work the same on a toddler and on a shichibukai since he simply sucks water out.
It's not like Crocodile was so strong that even without his tangibility his speed and power were already proving problematic for Luffy. Neither did he get weakened once Luffy found a way around his intangibility or nerfed, he was just around the same power level as Luffy if not a tad higher.

The only thing Crocodile gets is he could have killed Luffy, but that was only because he was intangible which doesn't mean he was stronger than Luffy. It was just a circumstantial problem.

Crocodile didn't even show that he had any observation Haki and there's no proof that he complacent because once Luffy was able to hit him he also tried to kill Luffy. His DF control isn't top notch comparing to other Logias besides Smoker, he's just expected to be stronger than what we've seen because he has the sort of attitude that associated with being extremely powerful.
 

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Crocodile didn't even show that he had any observation Haki and there's no proof that he complacent because once Luffy was able to hit him he also tried to kill Luffy.
:derp Well he always tried to kill Luffy and the first part of the sentence, could have come from me reagarding someone else.

His DF control isn't top notch comparing to other Logias
His DF-Control IS top-notch.
 

Hannibal Psyche

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Croc vs. Luffy occurred in 3 rounds. What were the results?

  • Round 1: Croc one-shots Luffy.
  • Round 2: Luffy gets a few hits in before he gets one-shotted. Again.
  • Round 3: Croc is unconscious. Luff, on the other hand, is dying.

Croc had the upperhand against Luffy in all 3 fights. Luffy would probably win the rematch now because he knows how to beat Croc, but if you were to erase that knowledge, then Croc would win most fights.

Oda probably hadn't thought of Gear 2 and 3 when Luffy fought Croc. Same thing for Haki.

Who told you Crocodile can't use Haki? Granted, he has no confirmed usages of Haki, but Haki-less? Every high/top-tier at this point is confirmed to have Haki. Chances are good Croc has it too at this point in the story.

An example of inconsistent powerscaling is Smoker too. Smoker sent Luffy and crew fleeing whenever he stumbled upon them. He even stalemated Ace in Alabasta. What happened since then? Law had little trouble defeating him, and Luffy think he can at least stalemate Smoker in a fight. You'd think Smoker would be top-tier by now, but he's not. Far from it in fact.
If Luffy were as strong as Akainu, but couldn't touch him, then of course Akainu would have the advantage not because he's stronger but because he has the advantage of being untouchable.

Crocodile wasn't stronger than Luffy, he just had an advantage of being untouchable. Once Luffy had found an efficient method to bypass his intangibility, fact is it's at this point the fight became even. It's not like he received a power boost after making him tangible like against Moriah.

We know Whitebeard is strong, if he couldn't touch Logia he'd lose to any Logia no matter how weak they were. So rather in Luffy's case, Crocodile had an unfair advantage, he was still in the desert and he lost.

That's an excuse, it doesn't matter when Oda had thought of Gear 2 or 3, we don't know that. We do know he used CoC Haki in chapter 1. It's also likely that he already had Haki planned, how else were people like Smoker meant to be defeated who was introduced quite early on?

It's pretty much confirmed he can't use Haki, he didn't even use observation Haki like Enel. When Rayleigh introduced Haki to Luffy, he only remembered opponents with Haki he had faced and Crocodile wasn't there. Luffy never even had problems keeping up with Crocodile's speed or manoeuvres, so it's almost fact at this point that he doesn't possess it. He well may have it now after 2 years.

Smoker never fought Ace, Ace just stalled him so Luffy could escape. Ace's goal at that time was to deal with Teach and he had to leave the New World to do so. Smoker was the least of his problems. He never took Smoker as a serious opponent.

Smoker's only advantage over Luffy was the fact that Luffy couldn't touch him, he wasn't even a VA at the time which is a rank that explicitly requires Haki. It's unlikely Smoker had Haki at the time until after the time-skip.

Cases for Crocodile are just excuses as he got defeated fair and square; Gecko Moriah on the other hand wasn't defeated fair and square, Luffy had to borrow the powers of others in order to defeat him. This wasn't the case for Crocodile at all.
 

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It's not like Crocodile was so strong that even without his tangibility his speed and power were already proving problematic for Luffy. Neither did he get weakened once Luffy found a way around his intangibility or nerfed, he was just around the same power level as Luffy if not a tad higher.

The only thing Crocodile gets is he could have killed Luffy, but that was only because he was intangible which doesn't mean he was stronger than Luffy. It was just a circumstantial problem.

Crocodile didn't even show that he had any observation Haki and there's no proof that he complacent because once Luffy was able to hit him he also tried to kill Luffy. His DF control isn't top notch comparing to other Logias besides Smoker, he's just expected to be stronger than what we've seen because he has the sort of attitude that associated with being extremely powerful.
Well, luffy found a way around crocodile's intangibility the second time they fought through water luffy. Before that crocodile had evaded luffy's attacks even without his intangibility. And even with water luffy only got a single hit on crocodile. Granted crocodile bleed from it but in context thats irrelevant considering the same thing happened against BB whom we would would have wrecked luffy had the fight continued. If anything BB from back then would probably beat current luffy...

Anyways, during the third fight things went differently from the other 2 fights for literally no reason at all. Through the first and second fight crocodile had consistently avoided luffy's attacks with and without intangibility. He consistently whipped luffy. And then during the third fight where crocodile should have been mostly fine and about as vulnerable as he was during the second fight against luffy he lost. There is no logical explanation for the third fight to not have gone as the other two since luffy was presumably weaker than before while crocodile was about as fine as he always was. Crcodile did not even use his technique to turn everything into sand which would have wrecked luffy one way or the other. I am still not sure of why luffy was not affected by crocodile's poison either. It took effect later but we actually saw the thing melting stone...
 

Hannibal Psyche

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Well, luffy found a way around crocodile's intangibility the second time they fought through water luffy. Before that crocodile had evaded luffy's attacks even without his intangibility. And even with water luffy only got a single hit on crocodile. Granted crocodile bleed from it but in context thats irrelevant considering the same thing happened against BB whom we would would have wrecked luffy had the fight continued. If anything BB from back then would probably beat current luffy...

Anyways, during the third fight things went differently from the other 2 fights for literally no reason at all. Through the first and second fight crocodile had consistently avoided luffy's attacks with and without intangibility. He consistently whipped luffy. And then during the third fight where crocodile should have been mostly fine and about as vulnerable as he was during the second fight against luffy he lost. There is no logical explanation for the third fight to not have gone as the other two since luffy was presumably weaker than before while crocodile was about as fine as he always was. Crcodile did not even use his technique to turn everything into sand which would have wrecked luffy one way or the other. I am still not sure of why luffy was not affected by crocodile's poison either. It took effect later but we actually saw the thing melting stone...
Initially he didn't evade majority of Luffy's hits because he could maintain his intangibility.

Second fight, he had problems against Luffy and didn't expect Luffy to be able to touch him. He even though Luffy had Armament Haki, but it was all because of water. From that point onwards, he and Luffy were evading and hitting the other as much as the other and Crocodile still had the advantage of his poison weapon and ability to still absorb.

Last fight, Luffy made use of blood. They both knew what the other was capable and it was a battle of attrition. Luffy won because he was more determined so Crocodile wasn't nerfed.

Poison and ability to absorb aside, their combat abilities were clearly even, Crocodile really isn't as strong as he's being credited to be if he lost to Luffy fair and square after he lost his advantage after both knew each other's abilities.

I'd consider Crocodile losing based on luck if he predicament similar to that of Gecko Moriah, had Luffy not been given temporary power boost he'd definitely have lost. He even needed the help of his crew.
 
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We know Whitebeard is strong, if he couldn't touch Logia he'd lose to any Logia no matter how weak they were. So rather in Luffy's case, Crocodile had an unfair advantage, he was still in the desert and he lost.
Whitebeard would use vibration to prevent Crocodile grains from keeping a solid form. A bit tiresome, but possible.
 

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Whitebeard would use vibration to prevent Crocodile grains from keeping a solid form. A bit tiresome, but possible.
This sounds like it would help crocodile though.
 

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Whitebeard would use vibration to prevent Crocodile grains from keeping a solid form. A bit tiresome, but possible.
I do wonder if there's a time limit in which Logias like Crocodile, Aokiji, Smoker, Ace can remain or stay intangible. It seems to require some stamina? I'm sure if they were knocked out they wouldn't be able to be intangible? Well I wonder, can't say for sure lol.
 

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Crocodile is just above the average devil fruit users, I can see him wiping the floor with most of them, but the only logia he can beat is Caribou. As far as we know Crocodile don't use Haki, and his weakness is easy to discover by accident... as water is the most commont element, it's everywhere.

That said, his element is not as dangerous as ice, lava and fire, but it's pretty nasty. He can dehydrate something by touching it and turning it into sand, this can make building collapse without using phisical strenght. Crocodile still has potential to become a powerful fruit user, but there's more.

He has knowledge of the Ancient Weapons, and I suspect that he has knowledge of so much other things. Doflamingo wants him as a partner, and he choose only incredibly useful partners... and Doffy seems to seek only two things in them: devotion, or the burning desire to destroy the current world.



Plus, it's my theory and just that, but Crocodile is Whitebeard's son: someone adjusted his jaw many years ago but the eyes are the same, and he wanted to kill him because... yeah, the whole "I hate you, oh absent father" thing.

(When WB died he was 72 Years Old and Crocodile was 44 Years Old. When Crocodile was born Whitebeard was 28 Years Old. :) )
 

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Ignoring that Crocodile jaw wasn't very different as a child, I would say that the bottom of his head was transplanted given his scar.
 

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Plus, it's my theory and just that, but Crocodile is Whitebeard's son: someone adjusted his jaw many years ago but the eyes are the same, and he wanted to kill him because... yeah, the whole "I hate you, oh absent father" thing.

(When WB died he was 72 Years Old and Crocodile was 44 Years Old. When Crocodile was born Whitebeard was 28 Years Old. :) )
That's quite the theory. Given how their relationship was depicted in the war, I doubt that was the case though. Plus, given all the talk about sons during the war, I'm sure it would have come up. But now that you bring Whitebeard up, I am interested in their fight that took place in the past. Crocodile obviously had a good idea of Whitebeard's strength, so much that Marco himself agreed with his comment on Whitebeard's growing weakness.
 

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Ignoring that Crocodile jaw wasn't very different as a child, I would say that the bottom of his head was transplanted given his scar.
Oh well, even in real world adolescence can change the pretty little nose of a kid into SuperMario's nose. But I'm going off topic now... Hmm, maybe this deserves his own thread.
 

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I'm sure Crocodile was a girl as a child going by the pictures and what Ivankov has over him is that he changed him into a man. It's probably something he wants kept secret and it would make sense if WB is his father, he may have had a daughter and Crocodile became a man to please WB and to gain acceptance which explains WBs obsession with having a son.

Or it could just be aesthetic, Crocodile might just feels more comfortable as a man than as a woman, lol.
 

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Well, the picture of crocodile as a child at least does not rule out the possibility of having been a girl at some point. I don't think oda wouldn't go into too much depth with this though, as in making a case for transgenders or something. Even with the okamas and newkamas the manga just took them at face value so to speak. With that in mind what would make the most sense is that a potential female crocodile would want to be a man because it would be easier to move around pirates and make a name for himself. Its also plausible he just wanted to hide his identity for some very specific reason. Though him being more wanted than he already is would be strange. Or at least it would be strange to hide his identity only to become a extremely wanted person.

I doubt crocodile is related to WB. Or at least if he is then WB, or anyone else for that matter, would not know about it. A son of WB in this time and age would be seen as a son of dragon or roger, its not something the WG would be very keen about allowing if word got out.
 

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Recent Vol. 78 SBS revealed part of Crocodile's backstory

D: I have a question for Odacchi. In "The White City", chapter 762 of volume 76, during the scene where Law stabs Cora-san, I found Crocodile printed on the paper Cora-san was reading.

So what was that article about? P.N. Yamamoto・Sugiyama・Hori

O: Yes. I'm quite impressed you found this one~. As you've pointed out, if you look really closely, you can find Crocodile there.

This was from the time when Law was 10 and Doflamingo was 25; 16 years ago from now. Crocodile was 30 at the time.

Similar to Luffy, back when he was young, Crocodile's name spread across the seas with incredible momentum, but soon after he was admitted into the Shichibukai in his mid-20's, he tried to fight Whitebeard and was completely and utterly crushed by him.

Though he seemingly calmed down at this point, his eyes became set on the kingdom of Alabasta, and it happened to be precisely during this time period that he was being featured in the papers as a hero who hunted down pirates. In other words, that was an article reporting the acts of heroism by Crocodile at the time!
source:onepiecewiki
Seems like our predictions in that regard were correct.

Now about his powerlevel:

First off, let's take a look at the first fight between Crocodile and Luffy, and see what we learned from this fight. Luffy is fast enough to dodge Crocodile's attacks, and Luffy is strong enough to cause Crocodile pain if he manages to circumvent his intangibility. Losing this fight was in no way a shot against Luffy; Whitebeard would lose to Vista if he had no way to hit him, so this is in no way a huge point in Crocodile's favor either. Luffy actually managed to visibly agitate Crocodile twice during the fight due to his sheer persistence and forcing him into sand form, so if anything that's a point in Luffy's favor. Second Fight, Luffy continues to show that he can dodge Crocodile's techniques, and he also showed he was able to land powerful blows against Crocodile. Unfortunately, Luffy was still at a large disadvantage because he was dependent on an unreliable barrel of water to do damage, and water Luffy was also completely unreliable because Luffy had to shoot globs of water at a guy whose ability allows him to absorb water if he wanted to land a hit.

There were only three things different about the third fight with Crocodile.
1. Luffy had a reliable way to hit him
2. Luffy now had strong knowledge on his techniques
3. Crocodile finally decided to treat Luffy as though he was a true pirate
Aside from that Luffy dodged his techniques, connected powerful blows, used his ingenuity to catch him off guard, and finally overcame Crocodile due to his trademark perseverance and determination. Not a single panel of that fight was inconsistent with what we had seen during the previous two fights. Crocodile fans just don't want to admit Luffy's victory was legitimate because god forbid Crocodile looks any weaker than they hype him up to be.
Good analysis here. Anyone who doesn't acknowledges Luffy's clear victory disregards what's actually on paper. Even though it was a clear victory, it was still not an easy win, which is due to Crocodile's good reflexes, good stamina and the poison (which is cheap, but should still be considered).

Now let's talk about Crocodile's supposed retcon. First, the reason people claim he got a retcon was that he was "hanging with the big boys"... though you'll notice most everyone who plays up Crocodile's war performance conveniently fails to ever bring up the fact that Luffy straight up swatted away his assassination attempt at Whitebeard like he was a toddler caught reaching for the cookie jar. If Crocodile really became this tough badass capable of handling himself with the best the war had to offer, than he wouldn't have been thwarted like that by Luffy, the guy considered an ant in the war.

Let's take a look at the skirmishes he had at Marineford. Doflamingo, Mihawk, Akainu, and Jozu. Doflamingo wasn't serious at all throughout the course of that fight, if one thinks he was, than they have the reading comprehension of a tapeworm. There are really only three things we see from this skirmish; Doflamingo comes out unscathed from Crocodile's attack, Doflamingo attacked Crocodile without haki despite knowing he's a logia, and that Doflamingo can block Crocodile's hook with his foot. None of that implies he was at a level above his Alabasta self.

As for Mihawk, many people flaunt Crocodile saying he blocked Mihawk's attack. A clear look at the page makes it apparent that it was Mihawk blocking Crocodile. Look at the motion lines on Crocodile's hook, he flew in, swung his arm, and Mihawk blocked. But just to humor those who think Crocodile actually blocked an attack from Mihawk, I'm going to bring up the fact that Daz Bones accomplished the same exact thing a mere page earlier. In either case, neither is evidence he grew from Alabasta, and that's the last we see of it, so there's no reason to assume any additional skirmish happened between them after that.

People also praise Crocodile for cutting Akainu in half. Now cutting a top tier in half is an insanely impressive feat, if it weren't for one thing, the fact that Akainu was a logia. You know who else managed to break through a logia? Virtually everyone whose attacked one without haki or seastone. Nico Robin even managed to shatter Aokiji into dozens of pieces, and Luffy punched pieces of that mast through all three of them. Failing to damage a logia isn't an impressive feat, and it's certainly not something that he couldn't have done at Alabasta.

Now I'm going to get into the single most overplayed feat in the series, Crocodile surviving Jozu's attack. Because whoever is using this as proof is likely abiding by massive double standards. What do I mean when I say that? To start, how often do you see people claim Daz Bones got a massive retcon into high tier because he blocked Mihawk's attack? You don't see anyone saying that because then they would be written off as a troll, because people don't have their fan goggles on when it comes to discussing Bones. Then we have Luffy's performance throughout the war. Luffy got slammed into the ground by Blackbeard and bounced right back up, he got cut across the torso by Momonga, took a shigan from Dalmation, got kicked around by Kizaru, was pelted with lasers, got stabbed by Aokiji, took a clean punch from Buddha Sengoku, survived a slash from Mihawk as well as reacted to his attacks. Yet you'll hardly hear a single person claiming Luffy got a massive retcon during the war. Crocodile gets his head covered in blood after getting smashed by a Jozu he could hardly comprehend and suddenly there's a bandwagon of fans ready to milk that feat for all it's worth.
I don't think Crocodile has got a retcon either.
Crocodile wasn't stronger, however I do thing he was changed and that actually made him look stronger.

Taken into consideration the official backstory I posted above, we know that, just like Luffy, Crocodile once was a Super Rookie. His bounty didn't exceed the 100,000,000 but that is because he joined the Shishibukai before it could. We know from Oda that he is worth more.
So Crocodile had a lot of potential and high ambitions. Then he got crushed and decided to chill in Paradise. The same happened with Moria and both were the first Shishibukai Luffy defeated. They never had any real challenge in Paradise, so their growth stopped.

After Luffy freed him from prison his attitude changed. Trying to get a new chance to defeat one of the big shots, he threw himself against them whenever he had the chance. Because he has a big ego, he always looked super confident when doing this and that actually made him look stronger than he actually is.

If anything the war proved again that Crocodile has great reflexes and reaction speed, as he was always just in time. We already knew that before though, it was said during the Alabasta arc and proven again in an SBS in a question regarding how Luffy could fly into Smoker even though he's a Logia.

Also we don't know for sure if he really doesn't have Haki since he was introduced before Haki was, there was no visible indicator for Haki preskip and he always attacked with his Devil fruit and hook which work against Luffy anyway. It doesn't really matter as it wouldn't have changed his powerlevel. Even if we assume he did use (invisible) Haki on all his attacks, the results would still be the same and it would actually only imply that his Haki was weak. He will definitely have it now though.

I think powerwise preskip Crocodile is around Super Rookie strenght, whatever that means. He does have a lot of potential though and will come back a lot stronger.


I also have a cracky theory. Crocodile's ability to draw out water to turn things into sand is strikingly similar to Doflamingo's ability to turn things into strings and draw them out. Crocodile is the only Logia user shown with such a secondary power aside from the special Blackbeard.
Crocodile always boasted about his fruit mastery and he does know about awakening, so him having it doesn't sound too farfetched. This still doesn't make him any stonger than he really is, but it could be the reason why he was invited into the Shishibukai so early in his carreer.
 

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After Luffy freed him from prison his attitude changed. Trying to get a new chance to defeat one of the big shots, he threw himself against them whenever he had the chance. Because he has a big ego, he always looked super confident when doing this and that actually made him look stronger than he actually is.

If anything the war proved again that Crocodile has great reflexes and reaction speed, as he was always just in time. We already knew that before though, it was said during the Alabasta arc and proven again in an SBS in a question regarding how Luffy could fly into Smoker even though he's a Logia.

Also we don't know for sure if he really doesn't have Haki since he was introduced before Haki was, there was no visible indicator for Haki preskip and he always attacked with his Devil fruit and hook which work against Luffy anyway. It doesn't really matter as it wouldn't have changed his powerlevel. Even if we assume he did use (invisible) Haki on all his attacks, the results would still be the same and it would actually only imply that his Haki was weak. He will definitely have it now though.

I think powerwise preskip Crocodile is around Super Rookie strenght, whatever that means. He does have a lot of potential though and will come back a lot stronger.


I also have a cracky theory. Crocodile's ability to draw out water to turn things into sand is strikingly similar to Doflamingo's ability to turn things into strings and draw them out. Crocodile is the only Logia user shown with such a secondary power aside from the special Blackbeard.
Crocodile always boasted about his fruit mastery and he does know about awakening, so him having it doesn't sound too farfetched. This still doesn't make him any stonger than he really is, but it could be the reason why he was invited into the Shishibukai so early in his carreer.
That is the main reason he looks strong, he's like a dignified version of Usopp; he acts like he's a Yonko when he's actually not that powerful.

He definitely doesn't have haki; if he had Observation haki, Luffy would have thought about him when fighting Enel and if he had armament haki, it would have been obvious when he used it.

Crocodile isn't awakened for sure. Absorbing moisture is a given, he's sand. It's like Ace touching metal that spreads over a large distance, it's a given that he should be able to heat it up. If Crocodile were awakened, the buildings and everything around him would passively turn into sand instantly just like Doflamngo turned buildings into strings instantly and passively.
 

kkck

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Well, crocodile was able to make deserts at his convenience. Though it seemed like an application of his regular abilities... Maybe that also contributes to his strength, his ability to turn almost any area into his element.
 

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I agree, Crocodile didn't suddenly power-up during the War of Marineford. Still, I believe we'll see him vastly stronger after the 2 years timeskip, since he got his ambitions and dreams back (and we all know how important dreams and ambition are in the world, especially in the world of One Piece).
 
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