Current Vaam in Base vs Adori

[maverickframe_19]

I think we are getting to a point where bam's overall durability is sort of beginning to catch up to the rest of his specks (which is not to say his body is specifically durable like kallavan's though). Normally when bam goes all out he keeps thing at mid range, mostly bombarding the enemy with shinsoo blasts. But against dumas, who is probably stronger than everyone bam fought in the past combined, he actually engaged in CQC even when dumas was in his purple mode. Bam meant to paralyze dumas with a floral butterfly and reverse flow control to land his shot but it's still a significant deviation from how he goes about fights. It could be because the leviathan has significant defensive properties but it adds up to the same, bam's CQC capacity has shown astounding growth.

Very good point to be fair. You have to say his durability is top-tier. He has been constantly fighting since the nest started—the different calibre of opponents, every one a step above. Dumas was the only one who handed his ass to him and that is a regent. All the more reason now to believe his training with V will be about refinement and specific techniques in his arsenal to land critical hits with maximum efficiency and minimum effort.

 

[kkck]

Very good point to be fair. You have to say his durability is top-tier. He has been constantly fighting since the nest started—the different calibre of opponents, every one a step above. Dumas was the only one who handed his ass to him and that is a regent. All the more reason now to believe his training with V will be about refinement and specific techniques in his arsenal to land critical hits with maximum efficiency and minimum effort.

I wouldn't go as far as saying top tier but it's gotten pretty good at least. I framed this as his durability beginning to catch up to the rest of his specks because I didn't want to get specific enough for this to be contentious and at times stats and specks seem fungible.

Hmmm, I am not sure of what to think in regard's to V teaching bam. Something about the framing presented here bothers me a bit but I can't quite put my finger on it. V's techniques, which bam was taught, are the floral butterfly (along with the implied reverse flow control) and the water dragon (which implies V used the shinsoo loop I think). Add to that multiple depictions of V using a needle and the black march being black and a needle. Most of these are close range stuff. Bam's primary shinsoo attribute in turn is an orb but it doesn't seem like V is an orb user yet. Obviously there's overlap but I don't think bam and V are carbon copies of each other speck wise unless V is also an orb user.

 

[maverickframe_19]

I wouldn't go as far as saying top tier but it's gotten pretty good at least. I framed this as his durability beginning to catch up to the rest of his specks because I didn't want to get specific enough for this to be contentious and at times stats and specks seem fungible.

Hmmm, I am not sure of what to think in regard's to V teaching bam. Something about the framing presented here bothers me a bit but I can't quite put my finger on it. V's techniques, which bam was taught, are the floral butterfly (along with the implied reverse flow control) and the water dragon (which implies V used the shinsoo loop I think). Add to that multiple depictions of V using a needle and the black march being black and a needle. Most of these are close range stuff. Bam's primary shinsoo attribute in turn is an orb but it doesn't seem like V is an orb user yet. Obviously there's overlap but I don't think bam and V are carbon copies of each other speck wise unless V is also an orb user.

When I say techniques, the FUG techniques, FBP is his go-through move. The water dragon is the same. Every other technique taught to him by HSY is an extension of what I think V originally passed on to certain slayers or Luslec in FUG. Also, V is teaching him about shinshoo, its use, and flow control. The implications of this are on everything Bam does martial arts or wave controller moves. If you get my point.

Not a carbon copy but pretty god damn close. His tension is what he inherited innit?

When you say Orb remember, orbs can be small like a rasengan or big like we have already seen in the series. The smaller the orb, the greater the tension in it and the more release of power. Maybe that's the way forward for Bam.

 

[Vali x lucifer]

I think we are getting to a point where bam's overall durability is sort of beginning to catch up to the rest of his specks (which is not to say his body is specifically durable like kallavan's though). Normally when bam goes all out he keeps thing at mid range, mostly bombarding the enemy with shinsoo blasts. But against dumas, who is probably stronger than everyone bam fought in the past combined, he actually engaged in CQC even when dumas was in his purple mode. Bam meant to paralyze dumas with a floral butterfly and reverse flow control to land his shot but it's still a significant deviation from how he goes about fights. It could be because the leviathan has significant defensive properties but it adds up to the same, bam's CQC capacity has shown astounding growth.

Baam might be durable enough for his own specks, but V is clearly being "bottlenecked" by his body. He can work around it for a while just because he is still one of the most skilled/talented beings in the history of the Tower, otherwise he would have no buisness in facing a 100% serious Adori with his current body.

 

[kkck]

When I say techniques, the FUG techniques, FBP is his go-through move. The water dragon is the same. Every other technique taught to him by HSY is an extension of what I think V originally passed on to certain slayers or Luslec in FUG. Also, V is teaching him about shinshoo, its use, and flow control. The implications of this are on everything Bam does martial arts or wave controller moves. If you get my point.

Not a carbon copy but pretty god damn close. His tension is what he inherited innit?

When you say Orb remember, orbs can be small like a rasengan or big like we have already seen in the series. The smaller the orb, the greater the tension in it and the more release of power. Maybe that's the way forward for Bam.

Both are talented at tension but that's a pretty generic facet of shinsoo combat. V had the highest tension among the great warriors but blossom was outright stated to be the best wave controller among them. Being skilled at tension ultimately means the user is more skilled compressing more shinsoo into bangs basically but it's not an end all measure of power. Bang's are also measured in terms of quantity, size and the control so even if there's a difference in tension specifically you can potentially make up the difference with bang size or quality or even simply with more control.

V and fug look like they have an interest in bam learning V's techniques but his actual talents might not be 100% aligned with him even if they are close. The orb is a bit of a white elephant there IMO. Bam also probably got some of arlen's own talents and it's entirely feasible the orb comes from there.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 23, 2024, Original Post Date: Dec 23, 2024 ---

Baam might be durable enough for his own specks, but V is clearly being "bottlenecked" by his body. He can work around it for a while just because he is still one of the most skilled/talented beings in the history of the Tower, otherwise he would have no buisness in facing a 100% serious Adori with his current body.

That's absolutely the case, there's no way bam can do anything against adori yet. Even if gustang wasn't expecting it it's incredible that she managed to destroy the PB ship through proust's defenses like it was nothing. She is easily miles ahead of the regent types we have seen so far. The most power bam has shown so far is just barely in the ballpark of nerfed dumas.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 24, 2024 ---

Thinking about it, maybe it would make sense if the shinsoo blessing had a more direct connection to tension. Since we are talking about folk either losing or retaining control as they use greater amounts of shinsoo them perhaps tension is potentially a measure of how blessed someone is. Of course this would be adjusted to the floor/tier a character is in.

 

[Demonspeed]

I think we are getting to a point where bam's overall durability is sort of beginning to catch up to the rest of his specks (which is not to say his body is specifically durable like kallavan's though). Normally when bam goes all out he keeps thing at mid range, mostly bombarding the enemy with shinsoo blasts. But against dumas, who is probably stronger than everyone bam fought in the past combined, he actually engaged in CQC even when dumas was in his purple mode. Bam meant to paralyze dumas with a floral butterfly and reverse flow control to land his shot but it's still a significant deviation from how he goes about fights. It could be because the leviathan has significant defensive properties but it adds up to the same, bam's CQC capacity has shown astounding growth.

That's not because Baam's body, it's because of the Mimesis in question, that form is rather good for him to use at close range and long range(bow) due to how it works.

Also, while Baam has always been good at CQC but resorts to his true Wave Controller style against big threats, these threats are usually Fishermen. Dumas is strong but he isn't a Fisherman, he is a Spear Bearer. His case is kinda similar to Baam.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 24, 2024, Original Post Date: Dec 24, 2024 ---

Baam might be durable enough for his own specks, but V is clearly being "bottlenecked" by his body. He can work around it for a while just because he is still one of the most skilled/talented beings in the history of the Tower, otherwise he would have no buisness in facing a 100% serious Adori with his current body.

V is kinda nerfed in Baam's body for now, but it's only because he isn't used to it yet. Baam clearly became stronger once he took control due to V's Shinsoo. His body is also stronger, because he became taller and more muscular. It's an adult body now.

 

[Vali x lucifer]

V is kinda nerfed in Baam's body for now, but it's only because he isn't used to it yet. Baam clearly became stronger once he took control due to V's Shinsoo. His body is also stronger, because he became taller and more muscular. It's an adult body now.

I expect Baam to have become quite a bit stronger now after V unleashed an enourmous amount of power using that body, probably enough to beat Dumas at full power in a real fight to the death, but i don't expect Baam's body to be comparable to Luslec's or Adori's yet, that is unless V reinforces it himself, and only temporarily for now.

 

[Shadowlord123]

I'd say Vaam, but I wouldn't be surprised if Adori can put up a challenge. I don't think this version of V is quite fully up there with the FHs yet.

 

[Demonspeed]

I have been wondering, what do you think is V's talent? Hon has his swordsmanship, Traumerei is Anima skill etc. We know Arlen's talent excels at Spells, but what do you think V's is?

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 24, 2024, Original Post Date: Dec 24, 2024 ---

I'd say Vaam, but I wouldn't be surprised if Adori can put up a challenge. I don't think this version of V is quite fully up there with the FHs yet.

Even though he can crack Gustang's shield and has attacks strong enough to kill Traumerei? (albeit weakened) I am sure he would lose to any FH but he has enough raw power at the very least.

 

[kkck]

I don't get the impression V is an orb user. And his techniques so far are reverse flow control bases and possibly the loop. If i had to guess the most likely scenario would be a needle. maybe even specifically a needle with the black shinsoo bam sometimes uses. In a zahards opposite kind of way.

 

[Demonspeed]

I don't get the impression V is an orb user. And his techniques so far are reverse flow control bases and possibly the loop. If i had to guess the most likely scenario would be a needle. maybe even specifically a needle with the black shinsoo bam sometimes uses. In a zahards opposite kind of way.

Aris are the Needle specialists though. I think V is an Orb user but he uses it internally.

 

[kkck]

Aris are the Needle specialists though. I think V is an Orb user but he uses it internally.

I am not even sure of what that would even look like. In theory attributes that are attached to a shape are based on things that exist. I don't think if you have a real physical orb you can simply swallow it like heart medication for internal quality shinsoo control. It's not what the orb is for. I suppose the logic can be different for an orb made out of shinsoo but... it really shouldn't. Eduan uses internal quality shinsoo control but he doesn't absorb his spear, he uses one of his lightning bangs. zahard did it with one of his gold bangs in turn.

There's also plenty of room for overlap attribute wise, not every family head is necessarily known for a grossly OP attribute. Eduan specifically made the case that his attributes were exceptional among his teammates. The needle is the most common and probably versatile weapon in the tower so it's not that strange that multiple family heads could have it. Add to that, zahard is also a needle user (specifically a golden needle with a weird gold like element). We can't be sure of what traumerei's attribute was or even what gustang's was...

 

[Demonspeed]

I am not even sure of what that would even look like. In theory attributes that are attached to a shape are based on things that exist. I don't think if you have a real physical orb you can simply swallow it like heart medication for internal quality shinsoo control. It's not what the orb is for. I suppose the logic can be different for an orb made out of shinsoo but... it really shouldn't. Eduan uses internal quality shinsoo control but he doesn't absorb his spear, he uses one of his lightning bangs. zahard did it with one of his gold bangs in turn.

There's also plenty of room for overlap attribute wise, not every family head is necessarily known for a grossly OP attribute. Eduan specifically made the case that his attributes were exceptional among his teammates. The needle is the most common and probably versatile weapon in the tower so it's not that strange that multiple family heads could have it. Add to that, zahard is also a needle user (specifically a golden needle with a weird gold like element). We can't be sure of what traumerei's attribute was or even what gustang's was...

Has something like this been confirmed? Many do, but I don't think it's the case for all of them. Take Miseng's for example.

What has been said is that weapons have been modeled after real ones from outside of the Tower. Zahard uses his Shinwonryu internally unlike Baam who uses it externally, since Zahard said that only those with outstanding Tension have an Orb Attribute, I am expecting V to have it as well. Data Zahard also said he had never seen someone uses his Orb the same way Baam does, so V has to use it differently assuming he is also an Orb user.

I wasn't specifically talking about Attributes but skills or abilities which make them stand out and became common inheritable traits.

1. Zahard and Yurin: Superior physical abilities even compared to the others.
2. Hon: Great with swords, Arie Swordmanship.
3. Eduan: Great with spears, Lightning Shinsoo(the most common inherited power through his bloodline and his main element).
4. Traumerei: Anima.
5. Gustang and Blosom: Talented Wave Controllers(not that the LPB Family have been a great example in the recent arcs).
6. Han: Good with Needles.
7. Arlen: Spells.
8. Hendo Lok: Superior Durability, talented Defenders.
9. Yirang: Fire Shinsoo.
10. Tperie: I suppose they are good Light Bearers? Not sure if anything has been confirmed.

Nothing specific has been said about V other than that he has great Tension. We don't know his Position either(must be Fisherman, Scout, WC or hybrid of one of these two) but he was the 3rd WC at best since Blossom and Gustang.

 

[Shadowlord123]

Even though he can crack Gustang's shield and has attacks strong enough to kill Traumerei? (albeit weakened) I am sure he would lose to any FH but he has enough raw power at the very least.

Well, I do think he is a threat under adequate circumstances. He's certainly not a scrub to them; the feats you listed show it. That said, I don't think he has much of a chance against any properly powered FH right now ("properly powered" being key).

Gustang didn't seem to think he was *that* dangerous as of now, only that he would eventually be if he continued to grow like this. V also expressed a degree of concern about Traumerei recovering his energy and coming back for his life (despite Traum being significantly beneath his theoretical peak without Leviathan and the rest of the BH Shinheuh).

There's not super definite proof, but I personally don't think he's fully FH Tier yet. He is not very far from it either though.

 

[kkck]

Has something like this been confirmed? Many do, but I don't think it's the case for all of them. Take Miseng's for example.

What has been said is that weapons have been modeled after real ones from outside of the Tower. Zahard uses his Shinwonryu internally unlike Baam who uses it externally, since Zahard said that only those with outstanding Tension have an Orb Attribute, I am expecting V to have it as well. Data Zahard also said he had never seen someone uses his Orb the same way Baam does, so V has to use it differently assuming he is also an Orb user.

I wasn't specifically talking about Attributes but skills or abilities which make them stand out and became common inheritable traits.

1. Zahard and Yurin: Superior physical abilities even compared to the others.
2. Hon: Great with swords, Arie Swordmanship.
3. Eduan: Great with spears, Lightning Shinsoo(the most common inherited power through his bloodline and his main element).
4. Traumerei: Anima.
5. Gustang and Blosom: Talented Wave Controllers(not that the LPB Family have been a great example in the recent arcs).
6. Han: Good with Needles.
7. Arlen: Spells.
8. Hendo Lok: Superior Durability, talented Defenders.
9. Yirang: Fire Shinsoo.
10. Tperie: I suppose they are good Light Bearers? Not sure if anything has been confirmed.

Nothing specific has been said about V other than that he has great Tension. We don't know his Position either(must be Fisherman, Scout, WC or hybrid of one of these two) but he was the 3rd WC at best since Blossom and Gustang.

Misengs attribute is just reinforcement but bams is based on an orb, an item that exists and functions in a certain way. When eduan trained bam he mentioned how the orb should be used. Do you think a physical orb can be used for internal quality control? I suppose a way around this would be to use the orb to make a massive bang and use that for internal quality control.

 

[Vali x lucifer]

I have been wondering, what do you think is V's talent? Hon has his swordsmanship, Traumerei is Anima skill etc. We know Arlen's talent excels at Spells, but what do you think V's is?

I could see V being particularly talented at piercing and getting through even the thoughest defenses. So striking very fast and precisily, arrows or needles could be his best weapons imo. So a wave controller capable of destruction on the level of Blossom flame, but with the key difference that he retains control over his power, and while Blossom would be more prone to go "wide", he is better at concentrating his power, so capable of more single target damage but maybe with a bit less AoE than her theoretical peak.

 

[Demonspeed]

Misengs attribute is just reinforcement but bams is based on an orb, an item that exists and functions in a certain way. When eduan trained bam he mentioned how the orb should be used. Do you think a physical orb can be used for internal quality control? I suppose a way around this would be to use the orb to make a massive bang and use that for internal quality control.

I was more thinking about how Baam is using Orb + Shinwonryu. I don't believe that V uses a physical Orb, but I think he uses Shinsoo Orb + Shinwonryu and absorbs it.

 

[Jackjohsnon]

Any opinion depends on whether or not you believe Adori is a threat to a Family Head. Because V. even in his weakened state, is a threat.

 

[Vali x lucifer]

Any opinion depends on whether or not you believe Adori is a threat to a Family Head. Because V. even in his weakened state, is a threat.

Adori would run face first into the admin contract even if she was as strong as V

 

[Jackjohsnon]

Adori would run face first into the admin contract even if she was as strong as V

Of course, I mean in a scenary where there is no contract.