Politics Do you think Wikileaks should be stopped?

AnkorSVK

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Re: Congratulations Wikileaks...

lol they showed how imperfect the system is. The more amusing part is to put all the responsibility to one person( they dont know the identity of the other founders XD )and they are not prepared to take also responsibility.

Most pissing part 52 years/ death sentence just for showing a "Bug". Modzilla and google gives money for it not death sentence :D
The best example of incompetence.:D
 

Imperium

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In regards to Assanges arrest warrant and criminal charges, his lawyer said this:

"It is quite bizarre, because the chief prosecutor in Sweden dropped the entire case against him, saying there was absolutely nothing for him to find back in September, and then a few weeks later on – after the intervention of a Swedish politician – a new prosecutor, not in Stockholm where Julian and these women had been, but in Gothenburg, began a new case which has resulted in these warrants and the Interpol Red Notice being put out."

He added: "It does seem to be a political stunt."
 

Alterno

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WikiLeaks should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Law, if they can do it so can someone else. I know the world wants to know the truth but revealing top secret information on the internet only creates additional problems. :(
Depends on what class of top secret information revealed, I would never agree if Wikileaks released nuclear codes or missile codes.... but I do agree they release every top secret information that they have released so far, Crimes of war, lies of all the countries. From your point of view is like we are assuming that wikileaks is the one putting in danger our troops and that's not true, the fact the same day they were sent to war they were in danger of death to begin with and the actions and inactions of our officers in many aspects are endangering our troops.

At the beginning of the war, before press coerced itself, we knew about rapes and killing no only from American soldiers on Iraqi women and children, but after the 2nd year the press got auto coerced themselves. Wikileaks is doing the journalism we need.. I'm sorry to say this but all the big media repoters and achors could learn a few things from people like Alicia Ortega (American born anchorwoman, reporter and investigator) and from Nuria Piera (Dominican Born), these two women and their teams risks their lives on daily basis to get the news out in this country and even beyond by revealing international narcotrafic networks or mafias.

American press just got too used to get the news, not to search for the news and I hope wikileaks could change that, because God knows we need press to be brave, to be willing to risk to win.
 

kkck

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Well, after giving things some though I don't think wikileaks is something which should be allowed to go on in the long run. In the short run they can have a big impact and perhaps even inspire a long term change in how international politics are carried out and a change in how USA deals with things but having a guy constantly hack into classified documents is not something to be taken lightly. The long run importance of wikileaks is not in itself the information released but rather the change in can bring into the transparency of how nations deal with other nations.
 

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Actually Reporters without Borders stated two mentionable things:

-It's a matter of the courts to possibly hunt Wikileaks or not, not of politicians who often showed very agressive behavior in the last time.
-The publishing of these documents by Wikileaks was not an illegal act according to US constitution.

@kkck: It's not really predictable what will happen, in best case nations start to be more transparent. After all, "the west" kinda has the claim of acting morally justified, don't you think? Human rights, democracy, constitutional state.
This would mean that transparent acting based on a moral and legal justification should be a good state and not a bad thing.
The secrecy wouldn't really be necessary for so many stuff which are beeing kept secret. Some things are worth beeing kept secret, for example to protect informers who work in dicatorships and would be in danger otherwise. But a lot of other stuff just isn't. It's just beeing kept secret to hide own sins. Ok, such things happen in politics and it doesn't surprise me that they are beeing kept secret. But then people shouldn't throw accusations at the ones revealing it, but accepz and admit their mistakes.
 
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kkck

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Isn't the publishing of that information illegal? I thought it was given the classified nature of the information although I could be wrong about that. Even if that is not illegal hacking into the US government to steal that information can't be legal in the least.
 

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Isn't the publishing of that information illegal? I thought it was given the classified nature of the information although I could be wrong about that. Even if that is not illegal hacking into the US government to steal that information can't be legal in the least.
They didn't hack anything, someone who doesn't belong to the organisation sent them that data.

Wikileaks is only a platform which offers people to publish secret data for them, to protect these peoples' identity. Other people send them the data and they only make it accessible to journalists and the internet.

It's like: You have access to secret data as part of your job in a government or company. In these secret data there is some interesting stuff, like protocols that the company knows that subcompanies of them force children to work for them in poor countries. Or, in case of the Iraq files, someone from the army thought the public deserved to know the truth about how the war goes.
So, how to publish these data?
1. Nobody might listen to you, so you need a way to publish it where everyone sees it - Wikileaks is such a way.
2. You need to have a plausible confirmation that the data is real and no fake - Wikileaks does so and sends it to journalists of major news magazines, who will do so as well.
3. You don't want to get punished for leaking the data probably, so you gotta stay anonoymous - Wikileaks makes sure you do.

By the way I love this slogan/quote which wikileaks has on their homepage for years already:
"Could become as important a journalistic tool as the Freedom of Information Act." - Time Magazine
Wow they were quite right, only a few people wouldn't agree that Wikileaks has become meaningful and important these days.


By the way: I got a laughing fit. The iranian politicians are responsible for it, with their "creative" statement:
Iranian Official Responds to Wikileaks
"The United States Is Behind This Deliberate Leak"
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,733060,00.html

And a comment by a Wikileaks journalist:
http://www.indexoncensorship.org/2010/12/wikileaks-internet-censorship-united-states/
"As hundreds of mirror sites circumvent attempts at internet censorship of the Cablegate documents, Wikileaks journalist James Ball calls on the US remember its principles on internet freedom"
 
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kkck

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I was going through the newspaper and I think this guy has put into words my opinion on wikileaks.

Mario Vargas Llosa said:
"On one hand, I think the transparency is wonderful, that everything is brought out into the light. This protects us from intrigue, ploys and lies," the Peruvian author said, just days before he is to receive his Nobel Prize at a ceremony in the Swedish capital on Friday.

"On the other hand, if everything comes out into the light, if all forms of confidentiality, of privacy, disappear, I do not know how a state could function," he added.
As great as the truth coming out is, he has a point. States need confidentiality to work, the indiscriminate release of classified documents has its drawbacks too. The current leaks should work as a drive to generate change and more transparency but some time from now such things should be stopped.

On the other hand, I think Assange(or someone else in wikileaks, who knows) said there were going to be revelations about banks, pharmaceutical companies and whatnot. It'd be very interesting to see what kind of classified information those guys have. Everyone always speculates the most outright evil stuff about them but rarely there has been proof.
 
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Roflkopt3r

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State of our companies these days:
4.14pm: Charles Arthur, the Guardian's technology editor, points out that while MasterCard and Visa have cut WikiLeaks off you can still use those cards to donate to overtly racist organisations such as the Knights Party, which is supported by the Ku Klux Klan.

The Ku Klux Klan website directs users to a site called Christian Concepts. It takes Visa and MasterCard donations for users willing to state that they are "white and not of racially mixed descent. I am not married to a non-white. I do not date non-whites nor do I have non-white dependents. I believe in the ideals of western Christian civilisation and profess my belief in Jesus Christ as the son of God."
No further comment required, it speaks for itself.
 

AnkorSVK

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Shutting it down is nonsense.
The USA were the ones who broke down ZSSR (high probability that "someone " gave a "small" present to make it happen -same now by trying to shut WL) saying that it hurts human rights. Well when i look now on how much they care about my rights in capitalism.... ->no money = no rights.

You complain about something ,write a letter they dont even bother to give a stupid answer they got it-asking them to read it would mean for them you want to work them to death.

The more pissing part is that in ZSSR everyone had at last a job and could make a living and everyone was monitored but now homeless / poor and law-breakers spread like cancer.

About freedom of traveling well in the former soviet block all ppl at last had money to travel even though not to every corner like they wanted (this freedom is one point that gives terrorism a nourishment) and sure retirement. Now only thing what is sure you gonna die (well at last if you have money for it ).

So go Wikileaks and kick the capitalist bal*s.:)
 

Roflkopt3r

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Shutting it down is nonsense.
The USA were the ones who broke down ZSSR (high probability that "someone " gave a "small" present to make it happen -same now by trying to shut WL) saying that it hurts human rights. Well when i look now on how much they care about my rights in capitalism.... ->no money = no rights.
Oh I don't think that the USA would give away presents to companies for shutting down servers, they're rather the blackmailing type -threatening them with something- imo :oh
 

kkck

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USA is hardly the type to do bribes. It's a cultural thing mostly, people there feel extremely uncomfortable with them in comparison to the rest of the world (not saying it has never been done before though). Blackmail is also not perhaps the word to use here and it is not usually done much... USA usually goes more along the lines of making a public statement or private statement about them taking measures against them if they don't stop (for some perspectives it might be a form of coercion but from another it is seen as enforcing the law-very convenient lol).
 

Roflkopt3r

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USA is hardly the type to do bribes. It's a cultural thing mostly, people there feel extremely uncomfortable with them in comparison to the rest of the world (not saying it has never been done before though). Blackmail is also not perhaps the word to use here and it is not usually done much... USA usually goes more along the lines of making a public statement or private statement about them taking measures against them if they don't stop (for some perspectives it might be a form of coercion but from another it is seen as enforcing the law-very convenient lol).
It's NOT enforcing the law.

1. Neither government nor companies enforce the law, courts do. Seperation of powers is an important factor of modern democracies.
2. Wikileaks has not been declared illegal by any court yet.

The first statement of Mastercard about their ban of Wikileaks but not the Ku-Klux Klan side organisation was (not an actual quote, just displaying the content from a German article):
"It might be that some partners are morally questionable, but our rules prohibit working together with illegal organisations or criminals. Thus, as long as the Knights Party (Ku Klux Klan political party) is not legally illegal, Mastercard and Visa do not have a reason of not working with them."

The issue with those points: Not a single court in the world did ever declare Wikileaks to be an illegal organisation nor found them guilty of anything. They are neither illegal nor criminal. Don't forget that the presumption of innocence is one of the very basics of states of law! As long as they aren't found guilty, they're absolutely legal and innocent.

"Meanwhile Mastercard seems to have noticed this as well and distanced from their original statement.
[...]
By now the German press officer of Mastercard has to struggle hard to justify their action without using the word "illegal". According to their new offical version, they only "suspended" their business contacts to Wikileaks "until the situation is clarified." What they actually mean with that, the press officer cannot explain. Visa uses a similar phrasing, speaking of an "inspection of the business relation"."
(by Süddeutsche Zeitung - translated extract from a German article)


"Operation: Payback"
4Chan - I guess most of you will know it, the most freaked out anonymous web forum there is, responsible for all kinds of sudden internet hypes, internet vote manipulation et cetera (afaik Pedobear came from it, they managed to bring "North Korea" up to #1 for Justin Bieber's "where shall the next tour be?" vote and voted "Pedobear" as the offical Miley Cyrus #1 Fan) declared to attack all companies which bow their heads to governments in the Wikileaks affair.
On Tueday the webpage of the suisse "PostFinance" which shutted down a Wikileaks bank account, was offline for some hours due to a "Denial of Service" hacker attack.
On late wednesday morning, the MasterCard webpage went down. 4Chan (or rather their members) is suspected to be the attacker here as well.
(for me it still is down, 16:08 here)


Edit:
Spy, Journalist, High-Tech Terrorist?
The search for the right paragraph: The US courts consider a charge against Julian Assange - Jet they've no idea what to charge him for. Every shady move seems an option for the investigators: They even think about charging him for the injury of copyrights.
Headline of a new article on Sueddeutsche.de
So, even the US courts don't have an idea what possible crime Wikileaks/Assange could've permitted, yet they want to charge him...
This is totally out of control. This is not what a legal state is supposed to do. A state of law is supposed to investigate after a crime has been done and then try to find a fair sentence in a just process. Here no crime has been permitted, but the courts try to punish him nonetheless.

These are not the methods of a democracy and state of law anymore. These are the methods used in the GDR and Soviet Russia: "Oh, he's against us; Let's find something we can charge him for, it's totally irrelevant what we're punishing him for, but he has to be punished!"
 
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kkck

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I didn't say the law was actually broken, I just said it was their perception or at least the idea they were trying to sell(I should have been clearer about that bit)....
 

Roflkopt3r

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I didn't say the law was actually broken, I just said it was their perception or at least the idea they were trying to sell(I should have been clearer about that bit)....
That's not a sufficient base for a state of law to take actions against a person. A state of law reacts on crimes with criminal prosecution by the judicial system.

Pursuing a person who did not permit a crime but much rather looking for possible crimes this person might've commited only to come to a judgement negative for that person are the ways of despotism. It's exactly what happened in the GDR for example.
There is a german quote which is said to come from a Stasi chief: "Everyone is guilty on something. When someone thinks he was innocent, he just doesn't know what he's guilty of yet."

That's the way the dictatorship pursued those who opposed: Capture them, imprison them, and then come up with a reason to do so.
To avoid such circumstances, the state of law requires a commited crime and a reasonable suspicion against the possible criminal. Afterwards, a fair process is to be held.
But we don't even have a crime beeing commited, and yet the USA already have someone who they consider guilty. It's not constitutional anymore.

Operation Payback: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Payback
 

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Re: Congratulations Wikileaks...

Impossible to stop the truth, is great that citizens of the world have more brains than their leaders. Wikileaks is now mirrored over 507 sites and growing.

http://www.wikileaks.ch/mirrors

Viva la libertad.


Julian Assange has been arrested (he went to the police as far as we know so far) and Wikileaks is currently mirrored on 748 sites (updated 2010-12-07 08:33 GMT).


http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/08/paypal-wikileaks/

Paypal exec, says they shut down paypal accounts because state department said it was ilegal, since when the state department decides what is illegal or not?

I'm canceling my paypal account today... oh and mastercard.com has gone down.


Well I cancel it after operation payback finishes. paypal is now under ddos attacks.
 
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AnkorSVK

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Re: Congratulations Wikileaks...

Impossible to stop the truth, is great that citizens of the world have more brains than their leaders. Wikileaks is now mirrored over 507 sites and growing.

http://www.wikileaks.ch/mirrors

Viva la libertad.
<hr noshade size="1">
Julian Assange has been arrested (he went to the police as far as we know so far) and Wikileaks is currently mirrored on 748 sites (updated 2010-12-07 08:33 GMT).
<hr noshade size="1">
http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/08/paypal-wikileaks/

Paypal exec, says they shut down paypal accounts because state department said it was ilegal, since when the state department decides what is illegal or not?

I'm canceling my paypal account today... oh and mastercard.com has gone down.
<hr noshade size="1">
Well I cancel it after operation payback finishes. paypal is now under ddos attacks.
1st the size of the file is small so its easy to spread and store so it will spread faster than they can take it down. There are also countries who like this data so they will allow to spread it from their territories (USA has way to much enemies in the world- count rising) :D

2nd power of money it would be extremely nice if someone could 'leak' the information who and what he did to make them deny WL :tem

The DDoS are form my point a way of revange and i doubt they will stop before they stop blocking Wikileaks.
 

AnkorSVK

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These are not the methods of a democracy and state of law anymore. These are the methods used in the GDR and Soviet Russia: "Oh, he's against us; Let's find something we can charge him for, it's totally irrelevant what we're punishing him for, but he has to be punished!"
Im not quite sure if what you wrote is 100% correct. Im not sure if you know the meaning of the saying :"Victors write the history." From my opinion its nothing new. They were using the same taktics as KGB since the beggining.The only difference is that Kommunist fell and the Victors made them selves prettyer than they were/are and the ppl in the ZSSR more less cared better what happened to their neighbour :D.

Few days i saw a reportage on phoenix (german TV) about a sociology professor who was several years observed (hmm not sure ifhe had at last freedom by shi**ing or if they also had a cammera hidden in his toilet.
Thr reason was he "used " few words 2 were mentioned that may have been used by a terrorist.
After i think 2 years observing they kicked his doorand took him in prisson. There was the first moment he was told that he is suspicios and was "closely" observed.
Till now its 2 years sine the arestment and he still cant be sure they stopped folowing him. Sad something like this to happen in the #2or 3in the development world ranking.


From my point in the 2 decades since fall of kommunism we reached a point where the bad points of kapitalism and kommunism formaly merege leaving the advantages way behind.
 

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Re: Congratulations Wikileaks...

1st the size of the file is small so its easy to spread and store so it will spread faster than they can take it down. There are also countries who like this data so they will allow to spread it from their territories (USA has way to much enemies in the world- count rising) :D
Yeah because my country is so, good. I'm american born citizen and I grateful of the benefits that the U.S. offers me, but I'm not grateful of endangering my life and the rest of the citizens of our country with these abominable actions.

The DDoS are form my point a way of revenge and i doubt they will stop before they stop blocking Wikileaks.
They just created a bigger monster by trying to stop wikileaks, Wikileaks is currently mirrored on 1559 sites (updated 2010-12-10 08:50 GMT)
 

Roflkopt3r

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Re: Congratulations Wikileaks...

I wonder if anyone here might even be running LOIC?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOIC
"Operation Avenge Assange"

Managed to bring down the Mastercard webpage for quite a while.
 
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