Discussion Dragon King Slaying Magic

[Axiomus]

Man, if Natsu ends up using an FDK spell before he receives his next power-up...I will never let you guys hear the end of it.

FDK spells being named the same way as FDK
mode and Natsu saying that it was Igneel's flames suggests this.

How does Fire Dragon King spells being named the same way as Fire Dragon King mode prove that Igneel's power is required to use them? It just proves that Fire Dragon King spells and Fire Dragon King mode share a name...probably because they are the same. Here's the catch: Natsu can use Igneel's power without ever using Fire Dragon King's mode.

Natsu said it was the flames of the flame dragon king. Igneel was only mentioned in the subscipt of the kanji to give context. The words that are literally being said would be "This is the fire of the fire dragon king". In the chinese scans, Igneel's name is ommited altogether because they don't have the subscripts.

Yes. This is what I'm trying to show.

1) According to you, Natsu's final unnamed attack in FDK mode was an FDK spell. So, Natsu's unnamed attacks after unraveling the bandages could also be FDK spells. And they have the same level of scale as FDK spells.

2) None of Natsu's regular attacks come close to an FDK spell.

According to me, Natsu's final attack in FDK mode was an FDK spell. According to me, Natsu's unnamed attacks not in FDK mode were not FDK spells. I'm not really contradicting myself am I? It doesn't matter that the last attack was unnamed. The final attack was an FDK mode attack. I don't have to assume anything to say that it was an FDK mode attack. That's not the case with the attacks before this.

They were actually a lot smaller, it's just a bit hard to compare them without landscape markers. FDK roar was so big that none of the individual soldiers were visible, and it carved a massive hole in the ground. None of Natsu's regular attacks did much ground damage and the Alvarez soldiers were still visible, as well as some rock formations. It's pretty much the same size difference as between FDK fist vs regular fire attack on the god. A few orders of magnitude (e.g. 10-100x larger, if not more).

You can make out individual members off at the side in Natsu's FDK roar.

Spoiler

It looks pretty much the same as the punch.

Spoiler

Besides, not being able to make out the individual has more to do with the fact they are cuddled closer together and therefore harder to tell apart. In the image of Fire Dragon King's Demolition Fist, you can actually make out the individual members on the ground. They actually look smaller than Natsu's base punch.

Spoiler

To be sure, FDK spells are more destructive. I don't deny that. However, the difference isn't as huge as you're trying to make it out to be. Given how easy Natsu can throw huge explosive punches, I don't doubt at all that he can pull off a FDK spell if he more of his power.

This is purely your speculation. And Natsu wouldn't pay attention to information about the dragon that he was searching for...why?

It's not like knowing Natsu knowing Igneel was the king of fire dragons was going to help him find Igneel. It's not like Natsu ignored this bit of information either. He simply would have had no real reason to care about it. Besides, why would Natsu decide to call Igneel's power Fire Dragon King spells? The only thing closed to a named attack from Igneel was a mirror version of Natsu's iron dragon's iron fist. If anything, Natsu knew Igneel as the fire dragon way before ever finding out he was the fire dragon king.

Spoiler

I'm not even sure where you guys are going with this. It actually makes sense if Natsu decided renamed his attacks to fit Igneel's title as the Fire Dragon King, as opposed to the magic inside his arm randomly telling him the name of his spells.

Or perhaps the FDK spells are named that way because they used Igneel's power. LFD with Natsu's power is different, and actually supports FDK spells being Igneel's power. Remember that LFD attacks with Laxus's MP were much much stronger than Natsu's base attacks. Whereas Natsu's LFD attacks with his own power are only a bit stronger than his regular fire attacks.

Except Natsu doesn't use FDK spells right away even when using Igneel's power. Natsu's LFD with his own power were much stronger than anything else in his arsenal except for dragon force.

 

[Brandish μ]

So whether or not Natsu has been using Igneel's power for FDK problems is now becoming a debate about nomenclature?

I actually think the naming of the spells is the only reason why someone might assume that Natsu has been using Igneel's power, but even so this is a very small reason to me. What else would Natsu call a higher level spell from his fire dragon spells that are fire only? As far as I am concerned we have 2 ranks of fire dragons, a fire dragon and a fire dragon king. My opinion on this is that Natsu has never been able to use this level of spell because he's never been remotely close to Igneel in power, but now he can.

So if someone is thinking that Igneel's power has fueled Natsu's FDK roar/demolition fist due to naming only, they are ignoring the following:
- Zeref and Happy's statements. Zeref sensed a rise in magic power. Happy knows about BDKM.
- It has been stated that the mode is a one time move. Why use demolition fist when he did? Why use this power on fodder?
- We see his arm acting up against Spriggan's, meaning Natsu is likely considering using the power. Didn't see this happen against the war god, or the fodders he roared on; yet FDK moves were used.
- There is no reason to believe that Natsu cannot perform a FDK spell under his own power. The AoE of his fire dragon's roar and iron fist are enough to believe he can do FDK spells. However when Natsu used BDKM he was overwhelmingly more powerful.
- Like LFD, Natsu was able to use the spells after the MP Laxus gave him wore out. This time Natsu had Igneel's power sealed in his arm, and was able to use it when he wanted to. Zeref/Happy signify the start of this I believe.

Imo Natsu can do FDK spells under his own power, and the evidence is much in favour of this point of view.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 13, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 13, 2016 ---

Well, FDKM is the most power we have seen from a single individual yet and not only in terms of raw power but in its apparent ability to do the impossibility of killing zeref. Even if dragon force is stronger it wouldn't be weird if it is unable to kill zeref. Also worth noting is that if dragon force is stronger then FDKM as we saw it would be literally pointless. For the whole thing to make sense in the context of the story FDKM shouldn't merely be stronger than DF. It should be overwhelmingly more powerful, it should completely dwarf it. Which would make sense with natsu getting a bit of igneel's power considering that dragons should have a volume of power immensely greater than even the strongest humans.

I believe DF > BDKM, as I stated in another post in this thread.

If killing Zeref is your measuring stick are you also of the opinion BDKM Natsu > Acnologia? I say this because if Zeref really wanted to die, and BDKM Natsu was strong enough to possibly kill Zeref, then why doesn't Zeref go pick a fight with Acno? It's not like he hasn't met with the dragon before...

Zeref either believes Acnologia isn't strong enough, or that there is something about Natsu that can actually kill him (which we might find out later). I believe it's the latter, and it has something to do with his mentioning of dead power.

 

[iDooom]

Man, if Natsu ends up using an FDK spell before he receives his next power-up...I will never let you guys hear the end of it.

And if you are wrong?

How does Fire Dragon King spells being named the same way as Fire Dragon King mode prove that Igneel's power is required to use them? It just proves that Fire Dragon King spells and Fire Dragon King mode share a name...probably because they are the same. Here's the catch: Natsu can use Igneel's power without ever using Fire Dragon King's mode.

So what you're saying is that Natsu unlocked Igneel's power, and named FDK mode. And that he separately created stronger versions of his normal attacks, and just happened to name them the same way.

Natsu said it was the flames of the flame dragon king. Igneel was only mentioned in the subscipt of the kanji to give context. The words that are literally being said would be "This is the fire of the fire dragon king". In the chinese scans, Igneel's name is ommited altogether because they don't have the subscripts.

?? Every translation I have read has Igneel specifically mentioned. Including http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/434/14. And what are you even arguing?

According to me, Natsu's final attack in FDK mode was an FDK spell. According to me, Natsu's unnamed attacks not in FDK mode were not FDK spells. I'm not really contradicting myself am I? It doesn't matter that the last attack was unnamed. The final attack was an FDK mode attack. I don't have to assume anything to say that it was an FDK mode attack. That's not the case with the attacks before this.

You are assuming that his attacks before FDK mode with Igneel's power were not FDK attacks. Evidence?

To be sure, FDK spells are more destructive. I don't deny that. However, the difference isn't as huge as you're trying to make it out to be. Given how easy Natsu can throw huge explosive punches, I don't doubt at all that he can pull off a FDK spell if he more of his power.

I'm sick of arguing this. Just remember that volume is length times width times height. If an attack has 3x length, 3x width, 3x height as another attack that makes it 27 times as big.

It's not like knowing Natsu knowing Igneel was the king of fire dragons was going to help him find Igneel. It's not like Natsu ignored this bit of information either. He simply would have had no real reason to care about it. Besides, why would Natsu decide to call Igneel's power Fire Dragon King spells? The only thing closed to a named attack from Igneel was a mirror version of Natsu's iron dragon's iron fist. If anything, Natsu knew Igneel as the fire dragon way before ever finding out he was the fire dragon king.

I'm not even sure where you guys are going with this. It actually makes sense if Natsu decided renamed his attacks to fit Igneel's title as the Fire Dragon King, as opposed to the magic inside his arm randomly telling him the name of his spells.

This is more baseless speculation from you. Natsu wouldn't care about Igneel being the fire dragon king, just like he didn't care about Igneel failing to kill END. Which also doesn't help him find Igneel. And who (in Tartaros arc) told Natsu that Igneel was the Fire Dragon King?

What? The magic in his arm "randomly told" him that it was Igneel's power. So he named spells that use said power as Fire Dragon King spells, after the fire dragon king whose MP is powering the spells...

So whether or not Natsu has been using Igneel's power for FDK problems is now becoming a debate about nomenclature?

I actually think the naming of the spells is the only reason why someone might assume that Natsu has been using Igneel's power, but even so this is a very small reason to me. What else would Natsu call a higher level spell from his fire dragon spells that are fire only? As far as I am concerned we have 2 ranks of fire dragons, a fire dragon and a fire dragon king. My opinion on this is that Natsu has never been able to use this level of spell because he's never been remotely close to Igneel in power, but now he can.

He already has stronger fire attacks, and they are called Dragon Slayer Secret Arts...

So if someone is thinking that Igneel's power has fueled Natsu's FDK roar/demolition fist due to naming only, they are ignoring the following:
- Zeref and Happy's statements. Zeref sensed a rise in magic power. Happy knows about BDKM.
- It has been stated that the mode is a one time move. Why use demolition fist when he did? Why use this power on fodder?
- We see his arm acting up against Spriggan's, meaning Natsu is likely considering using the power. Didn't see this happen against the war god, or the fodders he roared on; yet FDK moves were used.
- There is no reason to believe that Natsu cannot perform a FDK spell under his own power. The AoE of his fire dragon's roar and iron fist are enough to believe he can do FDK spells. However when Natsu used BDKM he was overwhelmingly more powerful.
- Like LFD, Natsu was able to use the spells after the MP Laxus gave him wore out. This time Natsu had Igneel's power sealed in his arm, and was able to use it when he wanted to. Zeref/Happy signify the start of this I believe.

Imo Natsu can do FDK spells under his own power, and the evidence is much in favour of this point of view.

1) Natsu can control how much of Igneel's power he is using, as seen with his initial attacks against Zeref compared to FDK mode.
2) FDK mode is a one time thing. Also, Natsu stated that he said that because Igneel's power will not regenerate. FDK moves probably use a very small fraction of Igneel's power.
3) Fodders he roared on because he got annoyed and wanted Zeref to come out. War god he used FDK fist because Natsu's regular attack did nothing, and Arlock was trying to kill his own followers. Brandish didn't really do much against them and Makarov told them to run from Ajeel.
4) I'm not going to argue this anymore, but see above.
5) If it's like LFD, then FDK spells will be much weaker without Igneel's power.

 

[Axiomus]

And if you are wrong?



So what you're saying is that Natsu unlocked Igneel's power, and named FDK mode. And that he separately created stronger versions of his normal attacks, and just happened to name them the same way.



?? Every translation I have read has Igneel specifically mentioned. Including http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/434/14. And what are you even arguing?



You are assuming that his attacks before FDK mode with Igneel's power were not FDK attacks. Evidence?



I'm sick of arguing this. Just remember that volume is length times width times height. If an attack has 3x length, 3x width, 3x height as another attack that makes it 27 times as big.



This is more baseless speculation from you. Natsu wouldn't care about Igneel being the fire dragon king, just like he didn't care about Igneel failing to kill END. Which also doesn't help him find Igneel. And who (in Tartaros arc) told Natsu that Igneel was the Fire Dragon King?

What? The magic in his arm "randomly told" him that it was Igneel's power. So he named spells that use said power as Fire Dragon King spells, after the fire dragon king whose MP is powering the spells...



He already has stronger fire attacks, and they are called Dragon Slayer Secret Arts...


1) Natsu can control how much of Igneel's power he is using, as seen with his initial attacks against Zeref compared to FDK mode.
2) FDK mode is a one time thing. Also, Natsu stated that he said that because Igneel's power will not regenerate. FDK moves probably use a very small fraction of Igneel's power.
3) Fodders he roared on because he got annoyed and wanted Zeref to come out. War god he used FDK fist because Natsu's regular attack did nothing, and Arlock was trying to kill his own followers. Brandish didn't really do much against them and Makarov told them to run from Ajeel.
4) I'm not going to argue this anymore, but see above.
5) If it's like LFD, then FDK spells will be much weaker without Igneel's power.

What I'm saying Natsu named his most powerful spells after Igneel's status as a dragon king. I'm saying Igneel's magic power had nothing to do with FDK spells being named as such. They are just a set of powerful spells that Natsu developed and named after Igneel's rank. What makes more sense to you? That the magic power left in Natsu's arm somehow communicated to Natsu what it wanted to be named? Or that Natsu named his most powerfull spells to reflect Igneel's true status as the fire dragon king after he found out?

What I'm saying Igneel's power is Igneel's power. Natsu can use FDK mode with Igneel's power, but he doesn't have to. Nowhere did I ever say that Natsu unlocked Igneel's power and decided to name it FDK mode. In fact, I am arguing the exact opposite. Natsu has been shown to use Igneel's power without ever using FDK mode. On that same note, I don't really need evidence to say that attacks not done in FDK mode were not FDK spells. If an attack is not done in FDK mode, then there's no real reason to assume its an FDK spell unless it's a named FDK spell. This is the same reason we don't assume every attack not done in LFD mode is an LFD attack, unless its named as such. In fact, it's the exact opposite. It's actually you that need to provide some sort of evidence proving why the attacks not done in DFK mode should be considered DFK spells.

I'm referring to the Japanese raws. "炎竜王" is Fire Dragon King. That is what is being literally said. "イグニール" is Igneel, and that is only found in the subscript to give context. When you say the sentence, what is literally being said is 炎竜王 (en-ryu-ou). When it shows up in the anime, the line that will be spoken literally is "These are the flames of the fire dragon king".

Spoiler

Nowhere did I say that FDK roar has 3x the length, width and height. First of all, the roar couldn't possibly have been 3x as wide as the punch. The width of both attacks were limited by the valley. Secondly, the roar doesn't look anywhere close to being 3x as high as the explosion from the punch. At most, I would give it a 1.5x scale. That leaves only length, and sure that might be 3x the length. Overall, the roar would be 3x1x1.5.

 

[Brandish μ]

He already has stronger fire attacks, and they are called Dragon Slayer Secret Arts...

The secret techs are different moves. FDK spells are just another step up from Fire Dragon spells. We got Natsu's 2 most prolific spells upgraded - that is the fist and roar. We'll probably get FDK secret techs too.

1) Natsu can control how much of Igneel's power he is using, as seen with his initial attacks against Zeref compared to FDK mode.
2) FDK mode is a one time thing. Also, Natsu stated that he said that because Igneel's power will not regenerate. FDK moves probably use a very small fraction of Igneel's power.
3) Fodders he roared on because he got annoyed and wanted Zeref to come out. War god he used FDK fist because Natsu's regular attack did nothing, and Arlock was trying to kill his own followers. Brandish didn't really do much against them and Makarov told them to run from Ajeel.
4) I'm not going to argue this anymore, but see above.
5) If it's like LFD, then FDK spells will be much weaker without Igneel's power.

1) Edit: Going back thru the chapter there are really 2 pertinent moments in regards to Igneels power: The moment Zeref senses Igneel's power, and when Natsu fully unleashes BDKM. Imo this indicates the unsealing/initiation of Igneels power (Zeref moment), and the maximum output of Igneel's power (BDKM). I do see why you guys think that Natsu can selectively use Igneel's power (for FDK roar/fist), but I think this is unlikely given Happy's words, and the notion that this power is for one time use.
2) Yes FDK mode is one time, so why is this? I wonder... And the FDK spell part with fraction of Igneels power is speculation.
3) So why did Natsu use normal fire dragon spells in his attack on fodders? I do agree Natsu was plot protected from the Spriggan.
4) I tried looking for evidence in your posts but couldn't find them just something about 27 times bigger??? But here: FD roar FD fist FDK roar FDK fist There is not a move there that is 1/27th of another, nor are they on different scales. FDK spells are stronger and require more effort from Natsu.
5) Of course, if it actually true that Natsu was using Igneels power for FDK spells. Then how small would they become? Natsu can casually cast fire dragon spells that are huge already...

 

[Arjuna]

Natsu's FDK spells and FDKM are different.It goes against the Principal of One Time Use if it was continously used or Used a bit of it's power.
l Think Natsu was only using Igneel's power against Zeref, and not for anyone else.If he was using Igneel's power whenever he used firedragon king spells, why didn't Happy expressed his surprise when he used them against the Alvarez Army? Why would Natsu hold back against a Spriggan, but not against the War God or fodders? Against Zeref He used That.If it was power He could have used that against Ajeel.
Now, some people have said that he was using Igneel's flames when he used demolition fist against Ikusa-Tsunagi, but in the Japanese raws he only mentioned Igneel's name (イグニール ) in the subtext of Fire Dragon King (炎竜王). That's really just there to indicate that when Natsu says "Fire Dragon King" he's referring to Igneel's title. In the actual spoken words, he would have said "炎竜王". When we hear it from the anime, it's likely it will be "en-ryu-ou" as opposed to "Ig-ni-ru". The Imishihui Chinese translations neglect to put Igneel's name altogether. Instead, they just write 火龍王, which is just fire dragon king.