E.S Hody vs Rob Lucci

[BlackHair]

And Lucci's Rokugan blast through Hodi's body, bypassing his "Tankness"

[...] IMO That's the reason why Luffy couldn't finish Hodi in a more timely manner, he just isn't doing the right kind of damage.

I sure can't follow the train of thoughts here. Hody doesn't have Tekkai or any metallic skin. The reason he could tank all those hits was due to his pills. The pills boosted his power, as well worked like painkillers. Thats why he ate them like crazy after Zoros slash and RedHawk. So Luccis skills won't do any shit. It's like in TB arc, the Zombies couldn't feel any pain but the damage still build up. Hodys case is similar. He feels pain, however after taking the pills he is over them.

So what if Rouguken blast through the skin? That doesn't change anything. So what if he is a master Rokushiki user? His damage output is by faaaaaar inferior than that of Luffys. He (Luffy) commented several times that he is tough and tanks damage like crazy. But I can't remember him ever saying his skin is hard (like in the fights with PX or CP9). So I rly fail to see the logic behind ur reasoning. Correct me If im wrong.

 

[rymy0630]

Hody doesn't have Tekkai or any metallic skin. The reason he could tank all those hits was due to his pills. The pills boosted his power, as well worked like painkillers. [...] It's like in TB arc, the Zombies couldn't feel any pain but the damage still build up.

[...] His damage output is by faaaaaar inferior than that of Luffys. He (Luffy) commented several times that he is tough and tanks damage like crazy.

You're not wrong in saying many of the things that you did, but I think we're talking about slightly different things. You are right to say that Hodi doesn't have tekkai or metal skin, so a flying shigan or a rankyaku hyoubi from Lucci would be able to puncture his skin causing damage (Though you are right in pointing out that he would be able to ignore much of the damage that is done to him). Regardless of how strong or how incredibly high Hodi's pain tolerance may be though, he will not be able to keep fighting when his body is poked full of holes and there are giant cuts on every part of his body, and as you said, regardless of whether or not Hodi can feel pain the damage will build up over time and he will eventually be put down.

Oh and you are also correct when you say that Luffy right now can cause more damage than Lucci could ever imagine doing, that's not something that I would attempt to deny in any way. I don't think that that really matters though, Lucci can take as long as he wants slowly picking Hodi apart, this isn't a speed game where he would need to finish off Hodi faster than Luffy can or anything like that... It wouldn't be a quick or easy fight for Lucci but I can't see Lucci losing to Hodi unless the fight takes place in or around water... Again, that's just my opinion..

 

[kkck]

^That would assume hodi is in itself incapable of responding or countering lucci's attacks at all though. Why wouldn't hodi be able to counter? I honestly cannot imagine an scenario where hodi is completely incapable of countering lucci. More so, does it make sense plotwise for the strawhats to encounter a final boss who is that weaker than the previous one? Hodi might not have had mastery over fishman karate but he was by no means a simple brawler in battle, he was in fact a trained soldier with actual battle skills. We know that at least before his transformation he was strong enough for the strawhats to think arlong would have been nothing to him (oda did say arlong would have been worth 80 million if he did not pay the marines). I honestly would not be surprised if hodi was actually a match for lucci even before his transformation.

 

[rymy0630]

What would he really be able to counter with though? All long range attacks (The incredible 3 he used) were projectiles made of, or attacks that manipulated, water. And since this fight is taking place on land I figure we might as well just take his long range attacks out of the equation (Though if I'm forgetting any long range attacks that he did without using water please tell me). So if you take those away from him, what's he left with? Since I can't come up with anything the only thing I could imagine him doing then is being an absolute beast in close range combat, but with Lucci being as fast as he is I just don't see him getting close enough to utilize the incredible strength that the ES gave him.

I understand that it doesn't really make sense to have a weaker character appear later in the story to act as the boss for that area, but it's not that Hodi is weaker than Lucci or anything like that. I think it all has to do really with the places that the fights are taking place in. As we all know Hodi was fighting with Luffy in the water, and I'll be the first to say that Hodi would dominate everyone that Luffy has fought if the fight took place in the water, but I just don't see Hodi being that big a threat when he's deprived of the thing that gave him such a big advantage in the first place..

 

[Schabrak]

I love how water is almost always excluded from the fight in the discussion. It's not or did Jinbe/Hody have a water fountain come out of their rear whenever they used FK techniques? Ultramarine may need a huge amount of water, the rest didn't. Oda even used a chapter to show us the secret about FK, enabling the user to fight any opponent with water within them. Also it seems like Hody's skill with the trident seems to be forgotten too.

If you can take water out of the equation, let's take Luccis huge advantage of airspace away too and confine them into a square room without no way to increase the space. And as mentioned by kkck, why do people nearly always describe Hody as someone unable to fight or counter-attack, that's ridiculous and has stopped to make sense a long time ago.

 

[RezzieThaRapper]

Well, I haven't excluded any of Hodi's attacks... I just said none of them could hit Lucci... Imo

 

[rymy0630]

I love how water is almost always excluded from the fight in the discussion. It's not or did Jinbe/Hody have a water fountain come out of their rear whenever they used FK techniques?

That's exactly why I'm taking water out of the discussion. Hodi has no way of using his water manipulating FK while he is on dry land (Unless we find the fountain hidden in his rear as you mentioned). Jinbe is the only Fishman thus far to have shown the ability to manipulate the water in the atmosphere and use it to attack enemies from long range. I mean Hodi has been able to extract a single droplet of water from his arm (though I don't know how long he'll be able to keep doing that) but that's all we've seen him do and we don't even know if he can get any more out after that initial one.

Also it seems like Hody's skill with the trident seems to be forgotten too.

His skills with a trident? What skills with a trident? He has done nothing at all with it this entire arc besides hold it. If you can show me where he displayed some jaw-dropping moves that made him seem as if he was in a league of his own while wielding a trident then go right ahead and show me and I will quickly apologize for this statement, until that time however, I don't think we can really factor in his trident skills. Plus, with Lucci's speed he wouldn't be fighting up close and personal (Especially when he sees the size of Hodi, dude looks like a Blue Hulk with crazy shark teeth), it would be Lucci throwing countless flying Shigans and rankyakus from high in the air or from a considerable distance. I mean... Hodi can throw his trident I guess? But then that's the only use he'll get out of it, and other than that use right there, when would a trident really come into play in long-range combat? Shall we now start including his rifle in this fight? If you wanna do that then go right ahead, that'd be the only long range weapon that Hodi has that he has shown some skills with. And with limited ammo it isn't going to be a factor in the fight for very long.

If you can take water out of the equation, let's take Luccis huge advantage of airspace away too and confine them into a square room without no way to increase the space.

As I said before, I take water out of the fight because this fight is taking place on land. If it were taking place in a lake or right next to a river, I wouldn't have picked Lucci to win the fight. But Naruffy said that this fight is taking place on land and didn't list anything that would help out Hodi at all in his initial description of the setting for this fight. Just as you can see no reason for me attempting to omit water from this fight, I see no reason for why you insist on having it come into it..

Why do people nearly always describe Hody as someone unable to fight or counter-attack, that's ridiculous and has stopped to make sense a long time ago.

Tell me what attacks (besides the single attack that Hodi used with the droplet of water that he extracted from his arm, and the single shot he used to kill Queen Otohime from his rifle) that Hodi can use to attack Lucci from a distance. Then again, if you think that Hodi is as fast on land as Lucci was (Lucci was able to dodge several of Luffy's Gear 2nd attacks with his Soru, and if Lucci so desired he could just jump up in the air and chill there with Geppou) then once again please let me see a moment when he may have displayed this speed and I will gladly apologize for these statements.

 

[ocajavati]

In term of sheer power, Hody wins.

Unfortunately, Lucci seems to be much more analytical than his counterpart. Unless Hody's range attack can effectively catch up to Lucci on land, I would give this fight to Lucci for the vast arsenal of skills at his disposal.

On another note, I don't really think Lucci actually lost to Luffy. Oda sort of just pulled that win out of his rear.

 

[kkck]

How about all the times hodi used his water shot and arrow on land? how can we possibly discount that?

 

[rymy0630]

How about all the times hodi used his water shot and arrow on land? how can we possibly discount that?

I went back to reread the chapters. I apologize, and feel like an ass. ='(

Now that I reread them though I think this'll definitely be a harder fight for Lucci to win, but still a fight that he can win. Now it's basically a long-ranged fight since Lucci would know he can't win up close. Though I think Lucci's long distance attacks are much more devastating than Hodi's. For example, Lucci's Rankyaku Gaicho can cut steel, it'd have the same effect on Hodi as Zoro's swords did. Hodi's watershot was enough to go through many mountains, but it'll be like Lucci's shigan. Lucci can accurately fire Shigan while flying through the air, so it won't be an easy shot for Hodi to make since he'd have to aim at a quick moving aerial target that is firing many attacks at him as well.

So yeah, despite the fact that this will definitely be a closer fight than I had though before, I still give this to Lucci.


And I really am sorry about missing Hodi's ability to fire quite a few of those watershots. =(

 

[ish3]

Now something that I don't quite understand if many of you just re-read the FI arc clearly Hodi before his hair turns white isn't a threat. However with massive amounts of E.S. it's as if attacks that would have definitely knocked him out in one hit before just pile up. There was probably a lot of external and internal damage from tanking attacks by Luffy. If he'd of kept going he would of died standing. On topic Lucci from two years ago vs Hodi before E.S. I could see a clear argument but after he took them it's a clear cut obvious win. Rob Lucci too me is close to fodder as Luffy was in the war of Marineford. RL would be taken out in one punch same as the pacifista (prior to two years time skip). Hodi who's able to withstand at least 5 to 6 more of these 3-4 he was on land (while the other 2-3) were under water (something like 10% of his normal strength to 30 (assumption). So I don't think we've truly seen how strong luffy or the crew is and in fact as we go thru the new world for the next 2 to 3 arcs at the end of one saga we'll see a true struggle but they'll have learned a lot and gotten stronger. If this was a Rob Lucci contest of vs Hodi no pills then I would agree Lucci would be the winner but I'm just not seeing it. I see none of his attacks having any effect excluding in his zoan form and even that seems like it wouldn't change much. I can see Hodi intentionally tanking a rokugan for instance and in the process grabbing Lucci and putting them both into the ocean if the fight was on land for instance. Either way whichever said you're on you can't deny Hodi's defense makes Lucci's offensive look like nothing.

 

[kkck]

As far as the no pills part, I don't think hodi actually took any pills after his transformation until the last moment he fought luffy on noah. In this regard hodi's transformation did make him massively stronger. At least according to ussop (which should mean something nowadays) hodi was massively stronger than arlong without any pills whatsoever and we did kinda see his frip alone doing quite some damage to the building. Even dozun (the hammerhead shark) was shown to be quite strong when he used a lone pill to regain his strength (if he used it to regain his strength then I would assume the boost would have been larger if he had been in a better condition to begin with) he showed considerably more strength than what zoro showed in alabasta (he easily threw a building with his hammer while zoro back then seemed to have some trouble with a similar sized building). Even without the pills I would argue the new fishmen pirates would have been a decent match (no pills) to the pre time skip strawhats as they were. At least to me the arc as a whole makes far more sense if we assume the new fishman pirates were to begin with at a level comparable to the strawhats before the timeskip. That would indeed show how massively stronger each member is compared to what they were 2 years ago.

 

[BlackHair]

You're not wrong in saying many of the things that you did, but I think we're talking about slightly different things. [...]

Sry for my late reply. Back then I was quoting both of ur posts, so I didn't focus on ur arguments, rather on those u both shared. Sry for that, didn't meant to be rude, just wanted to save time xD

I didn't reread this thread, but as far as I remember and plz correct me if Im wrong, ur main logic is that Lucci with his swords would do the right damage on a human like body than Luffy with his fists. Basically its like comparing cuts (Rankyaku) with dents (haki imbued fists).

In case Im correct, then I do get ur reasoning and it makes perfect sense. However I believe you are either picturing Luffys fists smaller or Luccis cuts bigger than they are. Just picture a wall getting crushed by a demolition ball half of its size and compare it to be cut by a regular kitchen knife. I mean that Luffys fists even if its not the right damage, would be more effective than Luccis cuts, since there is a huge gap in size (=strength) between them.

I understand that a knife even if its small would let a human body bleed out due to several cuts and thus it would be optimal to beat a non-hard skin opponent. However Luffys fists are like getting hit by a car, which force would smash the organs without trouble. Thats the difference in strength between EN Lucci and FI Luffy. To determine that, Im still using the defence of a PX.

btw we can't go with a blood loss scenario, since it is up to the plot and Oda to make that happen. In all the fights in the entire manga, despite loosing huge amount of bloods, there was never a issue, beside on FI.

 

[RezzieThaRapper]

Sry for my late reply. Back then I was quoting both of ur posts, so I didn't focus on ur arguments, rather on those u both shared. Sry for that, didn't meant to be rude, just wanted to save time xD

I didn't reread this thread, but as far as I remember and plz correct me if Im wrong, ur main logic is that Lucci with his swords would do the right damage on a human like body than Luffy with his fists. Basically its like comparing cuts (Rankyaku) with dents (haki imbued fists).

In case Im correct, then I do get ur reasoning and it makes perfect sense. However I believe you are either picturing Luffys fists smaller or Luccis cuts bigger than they are. Just picture a wall getting crushed by a demolition ball half of its size and compare it to be cut by a regular kitchen knife. I mean that Luffys fists even if its not the right damage, would be more effective than Luccis cuts, since there is a huge gap in size (=strength) between them.

I understand that a knife even if its small would let a human body bleed out due to several cuts and thus it would be optimal to beat a non-hard skin opponent. However Luffys fists are like getting hit by a car, which force would smash the organs without trouble. Thats the difference in strength between EN Lucci and FI Luffy. To determine that, Im still using the defence of a PX.

btw we can't go with a blood loss scenario, since it is up to the plot and Oda to make that happen. In all the fights in the entire manga, despite loosing huge amount of bloods, there was never a issue, beside on FI.

Here's my 2 cents again...


Lucci has a Rankyaku that can slice steel and nearly split a battle ship... any your saying that is comparible to a little kitten.. I don't see how you can say Hodi has a chance on someone who can rain down steel slicing attacks like that without breaking a sweat...

And most people saying Lucci would be fodder in the WB war as an argument to why can't beat Hodi... lol, not even taking in account Luffy's accumalated damage, I doubt Hody would make it past A SINGLE GIANT... lol

 

[Zehahaha]

Here's my 2 cents again...


Lucci has a Rankyaku that can slice steel and nearly split a battle ship... any your saying that is comparible to a little kitten.. I don't see how you can say Hodi has a chance on someone who can rain down steel slicing attacks like that without breaking a sweat...

And most people saying Lucci would be fodder in the WB war as an argument to why can't beat Hodi... lol, not even taking in account Luffy's accumalated damage, I doubt Hody would make it past A SINGLE GIANT... lol

Steel has been irrelevant in OP since Mr 1 defeat lol
But I get your point tho, Cuts are different from Punches that's for sure, but as BlackHair said, the difference between junkie Hody and Lucci is too great, I don't think that he will defeat him no matter how you put it.

 

[BlackHair]

Lucci has a Rankyaku that can slice steel and nearly split a battle ship... any your saying that is comparible to a little kitten.. I don't see how you can say Hodi has a chance on someone who can rain down steel slicing attacks like that without breaking a sweat...

1. Feats shown on material things are irrelevant. As Zehahaha pointed out
2. I was comparing Luccis attacks with Luffys. If you don't like kitchen knife, give him a guillotine the size of a battleship, doesn't matter, whereas Luffys fists would be still x10 his strength.
3. Since Hody doesn't feel pain, except from strong blows, I don't see him standing still without counter attacking on Luccis attack. Yet again you are neglecting Hodys offensive abilities.

Another thing which just came to my mind, I don't know if any Hody supporter has mentioned this, Luccis tekkai might be useless, since Fishman karate bypasses the skin and external defence. So in the end Lucci might have just his speed as a defence.

And most people saying Lucci would be fodder in the WB war as an argument to why can't beat Hodi... lol, not even taking in account Luffy's accumalated damage, I doubt Hody would make it past A SINGLE GIANT... lol

I believe both Hody and Lucci would be fodder. Though with Hodys high defence, he would definitely survive much longer. Not that it matters though.

btw on that battlefield except maybe John, every Giant was a fodder. And I believe Hodi would indeed pass through that idiot giant who was taken down by Luffy. Do not underestimate Hodis physical strength.

 

[RezzieThaRapper]

Are you saying cutting steel is irrelavent... I'm pretty sure it was even a plot point for Zoro's growth... Lion's Song was one of Zoro's most powerful moves pre-timeskip... now another move which cuts steel is irrelavent...

Hodi's Body isn't made of steel, I highly doubt it's uncuttable...

And yea, they both would be fodder in the WB War... because they are at the same level...

Hodi's long range attack is dodged by Lucci's high speed, or he uses Kami-E to dodge up close... then slices Hodi in half diagonally...

.............

I don't see why it has to be so hard to face facts that Luffy's first real fight of the TimeSkip was weaker than someone he had to go all out on pre-timeskip...

.............

Hodi has no answer for soru

Hodi has no answer for the steel cutting Rankakyu

Hodi has no answer for Madara Shigan

Hodi has no answer for Rokugan

Hodi has no answer for Geppou

....................................................
He may be able to break tekkai... that's a plus, but if he can't hit him whats the point
.....................................................

Lucci has an answer for the Water Arrows - Kami-E

Lucci has an answer for the brute strength - Geppou/Rankakyu Combo

Lucci has an answer for the tank properties - Rokugan/Rankakyu/Madara Shigan
.............................................

 

[Zehahaha]

Did Zoro ever used Soru ? No, but that didn't stop him from being able to react to Kaku's speed, why wouldn't Hodi be able to do that too ?
Did Zoro ever used Geppou ? No, but that didn't stop him from being able to react to it, same with Luffy. Why not Hodi ?

And yes steel is irrelevant, when you have something harder than steel (aka the metal of which Pacifistas are made) then yeah it is completely irrelevant in this world, any shitty pirate can do it nowadays.

And why he doesn't have an answer for Shigan or Rankyaku, you think he's gonna sit there and let Lucci hit him or what ?

 

[kkck]

All of those points you make assume that for some reason anything hodi tries against lucci will be utterly useless and everything lucci tries on hodi will work. You assume there is a difference of speed which not only cannot be reasonably proven but borderlines on the absurd. Why would lucci even have an easy time dodging the water bullets? The bullets are in fact fast and strong, we saw that much. Even luffy used haki to dodged them. Given how the attack works (hodi swinging his arm with all his strength) clearly it is not a calculated attack, the water bullets come out of hodi's hand or arm randomly. So how exactly would hodi dodged every one of them? He does not have the means to predict every one of them given that he does not have haki meaning that dodging them has to be done by seeing them and reacting accordingly as soon as he can. So really, how does lucci, who has massively inferior speed to luffy to boot, would hope to dodge all of them? It makes no sense for the most past. If it was one water bullet I could believe that he would dodge them but dodging a barrage of them seems unlikely at best. We have seen plenty of attacks which can cut steel and yet when they have come in contact with the gang they have failed to cause mortal wounds. The strawhats took plenty of steel cutting rankyaku during their fights against CP9 and not one of them was mutilated to the extent which such an attack would suggest. Not even vaguely close actually. So why in the hell would the attack be so much more effective against a freak of nature like hodi? I see no logical reason to believe lucci is so much faster than lucci either. Why would we think that? Ultimately it is obvious you like lucci and dislike hodi.

 

[RezzieThaRapper]

lol... now I have to be biased...

how about you actually list counters to what I listed...

and Hodi was obviously shown not to be gear 2nd speed on land...

From what Hodi has shown he has no plausible way of winning... and you all keep dismissing it as "Oh he must like Lucci and hate Hodi" wow...