Discussion Elizabeth

[T25]

There’s been an argument going around that “since Elizabeth has wings comparable to Ludo, she is Ludo level”

The problem with that argument though is that wing sizes are inconsistent, especially since fodder Goddesses have wing sizes comparable to Ludo. So to use this as an argument for Elizabeth seems inadequate to me

I don’t believe we’ve seen “fodder” with two pairs the size of ludo. The flashback before Mel’s death showed one with two small pairs. Regardless, it is a fair statement to make that Eli is high ranked. That is undeniable. But there is no way to justify she is at AA level of combat ability because we have not seen wether she is or not. Magic on the other hand, given what has been shown, does provide us with speculation as to wether she is superior or not. That’s how I see it and I believe that is a fair and logical way to see it. Not assuming definitives that have not been defined. This is a progressing story, an incomplete work. You cannot logically make a statement and say it is fact on things so utterly easy to be disproven by the author himself.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

I don’t believe we’ve seen “fodder” with two pairs the size of ludo. The flashback before Mel’s death showed one with two small pairs. Regardless, it is a fair statement to make that Eli is high ranked. That is undeniable. But there is no way to justify she is at AA level of combat ability because we have not seen wether she is or not. Magic on the other hand, given what has been shown, does provide us with speculation as to wether she is superior or not. That’s how I see it and I believe that is a fair and logical way to see it. Not assuming definitives that have not been defined. This is a progressing story, an incomplete work. You cannot logically make a statement and say it is fact on things so utterly easy to be disproven by the author himself.

I don’t deny that she’s high ranked, but I wouldn’t consider her Ludo level of power because of wing size.

 

[T25]

I don’t deny that she’s high ranked, but I wouldn’t consider her Ludo level of power because of wing size.

That in and of itself is justified. It doesn’t make sense to say that she is just as all around strong as him because she has big things on her back just like him. However it does make sense to say that those big things on her back, just like his, coupled with the magic ability she’s shown may mean she has magic comparable to him.

And if she has magic stronger than them or near them than she is “on their level” or “above their level” even “below their level” even if she does not hold combat experience any wear near them. Stronger, better, more skillful, tier, they are all subjective terms.

 

[Inuhanyou123]

I'd say Elizabeth parallels Meliodas, she's meant to be the SD's successor, but as long as she holds all her peaceful emotions she'll be too weak to take in all 4 graces. If Elizabeth were to give up her emotions though, she might gain the same kind of the strength Meliodas did and become a worthy successor. Although imo the SD isnt as interested in seeing Elizabeth succeed her as the DK is in seeing Meliodas succeed him, SD feels like the final villain to me.

I dont think the emotions she has dictates whether she can take in 4 graces. But rather her mother didnt want her because she didn't want to kill

Also, if we're actually taking the "wing = power" thing into consideration, Elizabeth unlocking 8 wings like her mom when she accesses her power against the two indura should possibly be taken into consideration too regarding her potential no? Considering we've never had any goddess doing such a thing outside of her, archangel or no

 

[Gut's is the man]

I dont think the emotions she has dictates whether she can take in 4 graces. But rather her mother didnt want her because she didn't want to kill

Also, if we're actually taking the "wing = power" thing into consideration, Elizabeth unlocking 8 wings like her mom when she accesses her power against the two indura should possibly be taken into consideration too regarding her potential no? Considering we've never had any goddess doing such a thing outside of her, archangel or no

the SD has 10 to 12 wings. (we haven't seen her face and it wouldn't be surprising if Nakaba has the whole small wings on head look.)

 

[OtakuFreak]

the SD has 10 to 12 wings. (we haven't seen her face and it wouldn't be surprising if Nakaba has the whole small wings on head look.)

Pretty sure she only has 10 massive wings and not 12.

10 wings Supreme Goddess = 50% of her strength.

20 wings when she's full power?

 

[Gut's is the man]

Pretty sure she only has 10 massive wings and not 12.

10 wings Supreme Goddess = 50% of her strength.

20 wings when she's full power?

We haven't seen her face. (also in myth the mightiest of angels. Whether that be lucifer, Satan, or Michael have 12 wings.)

 

[Tragicdeath]

Im just curious why you guys talking about wings where in fact she currently doesnt have one. Who knows she wont have it anymore even shes frees from her curse. My point is we should discuss that shes powerful after we see her wings. For now Id say shes just an average jane, she doesnt have wings.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Im just curious why you guys talking about wings where in fact she currently doesnt have one. Who knows she wont have it anymore even shes frees from her curse. My point is we should discuss that shes powerful after we see her wings. For now Id say shes just an average jane, she doesnt have wings.

That's why you talk about Elizabeth in her prime, when she was a Goddess and had wings (e.g my profile picture).

Its not exactly fair to criticise Elizabeth's strength when she's weakened heavily at the moment because of her curse. Would you judge Meliodas strength when Merlin took his power and reduced him to a 3K PL? No, you judge his power when at his strongest, which is currently 142k,

Plus, once the curse is released, she should return to being a full-fledged Goddess since that is her original form.

 

[Gut's is the man]

That's why you talk about Elizabeth in her prime, when she was a Goddess and had wings (e.g my profile picture).

Its not exactly fair to criticise Elizabeth's strength when she's weakened heavily at the moment because of her curse. Would you judge Meliodas strength when Merlin took his power and reduced him to a 3K PL? No, you judge his power when at his strongest, which is currently 142k,

Plus, once the curse is released, she should return to being a full-fledged Goddess since that is her original form.

No the curse is just perpetual reincarnation, once it's released both her and Mel die.

 

[Bøjan]

No the curse is just perpetual reincarnation, once it's released both her and Mel die.

We have no confirmation that they will die instantly. I'm leaning more towards the option of them living the remaining 500 years and then die. (I assume they are 500 or so).

 

[OtakuFreak]

No the curse is just perpetual reincarnation, once it's released both her and Mel die.

They aren't going to die. Nothing suggests that.

Elizabeth will stop reincarnating and Meliodas won't be immortal anymore.

We have no confirmation that they will die instantly. I'm leaning more towards the option of them living the remaining 500 years and then die. (I assume they are 500 or so).

This. I assume once the curses are lifted they'll return to their original forms and live out the rest of their natural life-span.

 

[Seven777]

I dont think the emotions she has dictates whether she can take in 4 graces. But rather her mother didnt want her because she didn't want to kill

Also, if we're actually taking the "wing = power" thing into consideration, Elizabeth unlocking 8 wings like her mom when she accesses her power against the two indura should possibly be taken into consideration too regarding her potential no? Considering we've never had any goddess doing such a thing outside of her, archangel or no

I cant imagine she is anywhere close to powerful enough as she is now though. If Elizabeth's emotions or perhaps her pacifist ideals arent holding her back the same way they were holding back Meliodas before he returned to AM, then i doubt she has what it takes to succeed the SD.

 

[OtakuFreak]

I cant imagine she is anywhere close to powerful enough as she is now though. If Elizabeth's emotions or perhaps her pacifist ideals arent holding her back the same way they were holding back Meliodas before he returned to AM, then i doubt she has what it takes to succeed the SD.

Her pacifist ideals and kind nature holds her back quite a lot to be honest, but:

When we see Elizabeth go on the offensive without holding back, she does damage. Hell, she:

-Roasted Derriere's hand pretty much effortlessly without memories. A 50k+ demon who is largely physical strength had her hand melted quite easily.

-Bruised a passive 142k demon who didn't put up a defense whilst she wasn't at her strongest.

-Can end up being on the edge of purifying Indura's in a 1v2 who ended up fodderizing 3 angels.

Elizabeth merely heals and purifies a lot because it's suited to her pacifist nature, and so when she does try to hurt people, she generally does it whilst holding back, but when she doesn't hold back she does some significant damage.

 

[Seven777]

Her pacifist ideals and kind nature holds her back quite a lot to be honest, but:

When we see Elizabeth go on the offensive without holding back, she does damage. Hell, she:

-Roasted Derriere's hand pretty much effortlessly without memories. A 50k+ demon who is largely physical strength had her hand melted quite easily.

-Bruised a passive 142k demon who didn't put up a defense whilst she wasn't at her strongest.

-Can end up being on the edge of purifying Indura's in a 1v2 who ended up fodderizing 3 angels.

Elizabeth merely heals and purifies a lot because it's suited to her pacifist nature, and so when she does try to hurt people, she generally does it whilst holding back, but when she doesn't hold back she does some significant damage.

She doesnt actually beat anyone in a fight though, just give a few injuries, even Galan, a lowly 27k demon, sliced Tarmiel in half. Its usually pretty easy to cause apparent injury to characters who have regen, cause they always come back from it. Purifying the Indura was the most impressive thing Elizabeth has done thus far, but even thats not really an offensive technique she can use on anyone, seems more like Gowther taking down Escanor with Blackout Arrow. But anyway, none of that is anywhere close to AM Meliodas level, which is where i think Elizabeth would be at if she were to fully realize her potential, plus there is no way someone who got oneshot by Derriere has what it takes to succeed the SD.

 

[Gut's is the man]

They aren't going to die. Nothing suggests that.

Elizabeth will stop reincarnating and Meliodas won't be immortal anymore.



This. I assume once the curses are lifted they'll return to their original forms and live out the rest of their natural life-span.

Meliodas sure as shit implied it.

also doesn't matter anyway. If the ucrse is lifted liz will likely just turn into a ordinary human.

 

[OtakuFreak]

She doesnt actually beat anyone in a fight though

Because something always interrupts her or makes sure she can't win.

Example:

-When she's without memories, she's extremely weak and due to her even more so kind nature, won't ever fight someone. Heck, the most she did in her memory-less self was push back Demon-Hendrickson (and the intention was to heal everyone else mainly) and to defend Zaratras from Derriere.

-Even with memories, she's still a fragile human and is not as powerful as her prime-self, so there are limitations to the people she can individually fight.

-At her strongest and most impressive feat, she was placed in a quite disadvantageous fight. For starters, she's fighting demons who just fodderized 3AA quite easily, and that wasn't even at their strongest form yet. Monspiet effortlessly burned through Tarmiel's and Sariel's defence (via graces) and Ludoshel's magic was unable to do any sort of damage against Derriere who wasn't even taking him seriously (LOL). These demons can individually fodderize all the archangels (besides Mael), and you're placing them in a 1v2 against Elizabeth? Especially when they still have a power-up that can resist her light? Yeah, that's a pretty difficult task, and I'm pretty sure even a Assault Meliodas would have mediocre difficulty against the Indura.

-She fought against the Gods... but yeah.. there's nothing she can do against them sadly, even with Meliodas at her side

Elizabeth has yet to have a full fight 1V1 against opponnents without having unfair circumstances. At her strongest, she fought a 1v2 and a 2v2 against the Gods LMAO - pretty unfair.

just give a few injuries, even Galan, a lowly 27k demon, sliced Tarmiel in half. Its usually pretty easy to cause apparent injury to characters who have regen, cause they always come back from it.

Tarmiel wasn't even being serious though.

He allowed Derriere to rack up over 50 combo hits on him for free, no resistance or anything.

It's like Arthur slicing through the masters, it only worked because he allowed Arthur to do that, its not because he was actually powerful enough to do so. Same with Galan and Tarmiel.

Purifying the Indura was the most impressive thing Elizabeth has done thus far, but even thats not really an offensive technique she can use on anyone,

it doesn't matter that the Indura feat is a purification one, if her ''Let Her Be Light'' is THAT powerful (e.g illuminating the battlefield, blinding everyone, pushing everyone back, making the Indura's go ''oh shit fam'') then the rest of her magical abilities (ark) are just going to be as powerful, or on the same scale. Sure, this spell might be her most powerful, given the power and name of the technique, but the rest of her light magic abilities should be somewhere close to that level of strength, even those of her offensive nature, which I think is supported by the fact that a Elizabeth who didn't know what she was doing effortlessly significantly injured a high-tier commandment member.

seems more like Gowther taking down Escanor with Blackout Arrow.

That's completely different.

Gowther can take anybody down as long as their spirit stat is low enough.

Gowther could brainwash the Gods if their spirit stat was 0 LMAO

But anyway, none of that is anywhere close to AM Meliodas level, which is where i think Elizabeth would be at if she were to fully realize her potential,

I think the Indura feat puts her in the range of Assault Meliodas.

I think she's around the 100-120k zone, and if it happens to be true, then it's not far off Meliodas level.

Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if Elizabeth's prime self is AM level, but she just holds herself back all the time

plus there is no way someone who got oneshot by Derriere has what it takes to succeed the SD.

This is like me saying ''there is no way someone who got bruised by a weakened Elizabeth has what it takes to succeed the Demon King''.

I don't know why everyone emphasises this scenario? It means absolutely nothing, yet people beat on it all the time to argue she's weak

This scenario doesn't matter because:

-Elizabeth here isn't actually in battle, is she fighting Derriere? No, she's negotiating and merely looking out for the interest of peace for all clans. Heck, she was even taking more off-guard by the fact that Ludoshel just murdered innocent civilians and was trying to calm down Derriere. As @MrSchmitty7 emphasises heavily, PL's increase substantially in battle, so Elizabeth being ''one shot'' (it really isn't, she got up with no damage a few moments later) doesn't translate to the same happening in battle. Because for example, in battle, Elizabeth could and would: keep her distance, dodge or avoid attacks, defend herself with her magic (e.g ark bubbling herself), or just ark spam Derriere to death.

Elizabeth bruising a passive 142k Meliodas doesn't mean anything in the long term, because it would never happen in battle due to him being able to avoid it in numerous ways, yet the exact same situation happens to Elizabeth (she's off-guard this time and hit instead of Meliodas) and everyone tries to emphasise how this would happen in a battle situation as well? Stop with these double standard arguments please

-Just my opinion, but Nakaba clearly had to find a way to get Elizabeth out of the way so the angels and commandments can fight each other without being interrupted by the pacifist princess. Hence the whole ''let's knock her unconscious when she's trying to negotiate!'' and have the angels come in swearing revenge for their ''Lady Elizabeth'' . In the simple words of @MrSchmitty7 ''lol dramatic effect''

Meliodas sure as shit implied it.

All he said was ''our perpetual reincarnation and eternal life will end'' which implies that once the curse lifts they will stop being immortal and reincarnating upon immediate death.

From my interpretation, they'll just go back to what they were before they were cursed and live out the rest of their original life span.

Plus, if Meliodas knew that releasing Elizabeth's curse means she will immediately die, then why do it?

Pretty sure the DK is not letting Meliodas become the next DK, to release his and Elizabeth's curse and then immediately die LMAO

also doesn't matter anyway. If the ucrse is lifted liz will likely just turn into a ordinary human.

Where did you get this idea from?

She's originally a Goddess. The angels can restore their former selves because they are inside human hosts and are not physically bound to them. Elizabeth on the other hand is bound to her human body through the curse, so once its lifted she should be able to return to her original form.

Nakaba better do this anyway, because:

-it's amazing.
-It makes her stronger.
-it's pleasing the fans
-would be an immediate sign of her being released from the curse.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Elizabeth here isn't actually in battle, is she fighting Derriere? No, she's negotiating and merely looking out for the interest of peace for all clans. Heck, she was even taking more off-guard by the fact that Ludoshel just murdered innocent civilians and was trying to calm down Derriere. As @MrSchmitty7 emphasises heavily, PL's increase substantially in battle, so Elizabeth being ''one shot'' (it really isn't, she got up with no damage a few moments later) doesn't translate to the same happening in battle. Because for example, in battle, Elizabeth could and would: keep her distance, dodge or avoid attacks, defend herself with her magic (e.g ark bubbling herself), or just ark spam Derriere to death.

Elizabeth bruising a passive 142k Meliodas doesn't mean anything in the long term, because it would never happen in battle due to him being able to avoid it in numerous ways, yet the exact same situation happens to Elizabeth (she's off-guard this time and hit instead of Meliodas) and everyone tries to emphasise how this would happen in a battle situation as well? Stop with these double standard arguments please

-Just my opinion, but Nakaba clearly had to find a way to get Elizabeth out of the way so the angels and commandments can fight each other without being interrupted by the pacifist princess. Hence the whole ''let's knock her unconscious when she's trying to negotiate!'' and have the angels come in swearing revenge for their ''Lady Elizabeth'' . In the simple words of @MrSchmitty7 ''lol dramatic effect''

Yeah but the problem with that is and what I also bring up is Elizabeth would have an excuse if Sar, Tar, and Ludo wouldn’t have taken even more abuse than her while also not being attentive to the fight.

Elizabeth is inattentive: gets ko’ed for the entire thing
Sariel is inattentive and has his eyes closed: proceeds to get stabbed through the eye, but gets up like nothing happened.
Tarmiel is literally talking casually while getting punched: tanks 50+ hits and then regenerates like nothing
Ludoshel starts talking shit about the indura for the entire time and gets his ass kicked: doesn’t even get slowed down for more than a second.

Had the other AA not been screwing around I’d give Elizabeth some slack. But I really can’t think of an excuse as to why they were inattentive, yet still able to fight, but Elizabeth in the same situation gets put down for the entire thing.

Even Mel, who got cocky against 114K plus Escanor wasn’t even knocked off his feet by the punch.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Elizabeth is inattentive: gets ko’ed for the entire thing

She was completely off-guard and not in her battle-mind set.

And the punch did like no damage. Or if it did, was healed in a few seconds.

So if this ''one hit KO'' is serious, why does she take virtually no damage?

Gloxinia basically got one shot by Escanor and almost died, Elizabeth gets ''one shot'' and takes virtually no damage... only reason I can think of is so Nakaba can conveniently move the plot forward smoothly and emphasise the dramatic effect of the chapter (of how Elizabeth is sorry for not stopping the war etc).

Sariel is inattentive and has his eyes closed: proceeds to get stabbed through the eye, but gets up like nothing happened.

Sariel is at least taking the fight somewhat seriously, not 100% seriously but he's still going at it unlike Elizabeth who got completely caught off guard.

Tarmiel is literally talking casually while getting punched: tanks 50+ hits and then regenerates like nothing

I mean... Tarmiel literally has a God's power that lets him regenerate.

Can't really compare lmao

Ludoshel starts talking shit about the indura for the entire time and gets his ass kicked: doesn’t even get slowed down for more than a second.

Because Flash gives him speed.

Once again, unfair comparison since they literally have a power of a God.

If you look at Ludoshel individually and not at his grace, he couldn't harm the Indura, and was getting tossed around like a doll.

Had the other AA not been screwing around I’d give Elizabeth some slack. But I really can’t think of an excuse as to why they were inattentive, yet still able to fight, but Elizabeth in the same situation gets put down for the entire thing.

Because Nakaba had to conveniently remove her from the situation so the angels and commandments can fight.. then indura happens.. then someone comes in and saves them.

This whole ''Elizabeth gets one hit KO'' is just the same as Elizabeth bruising Meliodas. It really doesn't matter since it would never happen in a actual fair battle for multiple reasons.

Even Mel, who got cocky against 114K plus Escanor wasn’t even knocked off his feet by the punch.

Cocky doesn't mean he wasn't taking it seriously though?

 

[MrSchmitty7]

She was completely off-guard and not in her battle-mind set.

And the punch did like no damage. Or if it did, was healed in a few seconds.

So if this ''one hit KO'' is serious, why does she take virtually no damage?

Gloxinia basically got one shot by Escanor and almost died, Elizabeth gets ''one shot'' and takes virtually no damage... only reason I can think of is so Nakaba can conveniently move the plot forward smoothly and emphasise the dramatic effect of the chapter (of how Elizabeth is sorry for not stopping the war etc).

Elizabeth wasn’t complelty off guard though.
She knew the situation was tense
She said she was willing to fight
And to top it off, she was looking right at Derieri when she got hit. It’s not like she got hit from the back. She’s in the same situation as all of them. They know there’s a fight, but they aren’t focused.

And she did take damage. Just because there isn’t blood and bone sticking out doesn’t mean internal damage doesn’t exist. She was ko’ed, as in her brain bounced around in her skull. Getting burnt to death is much different than blunt trauma.

Sariel is in the same situation as Elizabeth, along with Tarmiel. Elizabeth wasn’t off guard, she just wasn’t taking the situation for what it should’ve been.

Also I’m not talking about harming indura. I’m taking about the damage that Ludo took. Damage has nothing to do with his grace.

As for being cocky, we’ve seen that power levels rise when things are taken seriously or with at least some care according to Gowther. Mel was just using Escanor for target practice.