Discussion Elizabeth

[Gut's is the man]

Because something always interrupts her or makes sure she can't win.

Example:

-When she's without memories, she's extremely weak and due to her even more so kind nature, won't ever fight someone. Heck, the most she did in her memory-less self was push back Demon-Hendrickson (and the intention was to heal everyone else mainly) and to defend Zaratras from Derriere.

-Even with memories, she's still a fragile human and is not as powerful as her prime-self, so there are limitations to the people she can individually fight.

-At her strongest and most impressive feat, she was placed in a quite disadvantageous fight. For starters, she's fighting demons who just fodderized 3AA quite easily, and that wasn't even at their strongest form yet. Monspiet effortlessly burned through Tarmiel's and Sariel's defence (via graces) and Ludoshel's magic was unable to do any sort of damage against Derriere who wasn't even taking him seriously (LOL). These demons can individually fodderize all the archangels (besides Mael), and you're placing them in a 1v2 against Elizabeth? Especially when they still have a power-up that can resist her light? Yeah, that's a pretty difficult task, and I'm pretty sure even a Assault Meliodas would have mediocre difficulty against the Indura.

-She fought against the Gods... but yeah.. there's nothing she can do against them sadly, even with Meliodas at her side

Elizabeth has yet to have a full fight 1V1 against opponnents without having unfair circumstances. At her strongest, she fought a 1v2 and a 2v2 against the Gods LMAO - pretty unfair.



Tarmiel wasn't even being serious though.

He allowed Derriere to rack up over 50 combo hits on him for free, no resistance or anything.

It's like Arthur slicing through the masters, it only worked because he allowed Arthur to do that, its not because he was actually powerful enough to do so. Same with Galan and Tarmiel.



it doesn't matter that the Indura feat is a purification one, if her ''Let Her Be Light'' is THAT powerful (e.g illuminating the battlefield, blinding everyone, pushing everyone back, making the Indura's go ''oh shit fam'') then the rest of her magical abilities (ark) are just going to be as powerful, or on the same scale. Sure, this spell might be her most powerful, given the power and name of the technique, but the rest of her light magic abilities should be somewhere close to that level of strength, even those of her offensive nature, which I think is supported by the fact that a Elizabeth who didn't know what she was doing effortlessly significantly injured a high-tier commandment member.



That's completely different.

Gowther can take anybody down as long as their spirit stat is low enough.

Gowther could brainwash the Gods if their spirit stat was 0 LMAO



I think the Indura feat puts her in the range of Assault Meliodas.

I think she's around the 100-120k zone, and if it happens to be true, then it's not far off Meliodas level.

Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if Elizabeth's prime self is AM level, but she just holds herself back all the time



This is like me saying ''there is no way someone who got bruised by a weakened Elizabeth has what it takes to succeed the Demon King''.

I don't know why everyone emphasises this scenario? It means absolutely nothing, yet people beat on it all the time to argue she's weak

This scenario doesn't matter because:

-Elizabeth here isn't actually in battle, is she fighting Derriere? No, she's negotiating and merely looking out for the interest of peace for all clans. Heck, she was even taking more off-guard by the fact that Ludoshel just murdered innocent civilians and was trying to calm down Derriere. As @MrSchmitty7 emphasises heavily, PL's increase substantially in battle, so Elizabeth being ''one shot'' (it really isn't, she got up with no damage a few moments later) doesn't translate to the same happening in battle. Because for example, in battle, Elizabeth could and would: keep her distance, dodge or avoid attacks, defend herself with her magic (e.g ark bubbling herself), or just ark spam Derriere to death.

Elizabeth bruising a passive 142k Meliodas doesn't mean anything in the long term, because it would never happen in battle due to him being able to avoid it in numerous ways, yet the exact same situation happens to Elizabeth (she's off-guard this time and hit instead of Meliodas) and everyone tries to emphasise how this would happen in a battle situation as well? Stop with these double standard arguments please

-Just my opinion, but Nakaba clearly had to find a way to get Elizabeth out of the way so the angels and commandments can fight each other without being interrupted by the pacifist princess. Hence the whole ''let's knock her unconscious when she's trying to negotiate!'' and have the angels come in swearing revenge for their ''Lady Elizabeth'' . In the simple words of @MrSchmitty7 ''lol dramatic effect''



All he said was ''our perpetual reincarnation and eternal life will end'' which implies that once the curse lifts they will stop being immortal and reincarnating upon immediate death.

From my interpretation, they'll just go back to what they were before they were cursed and live out the rest of their original life span.

Plus, if Meliodas knew that releasing Elizabeth's curse means she will immediately die, then why do it?

Pretty sure the DK is not letting Meliodas become the next DK, to release his and Elizabeth's curse and then immediately die LMAO



Where did you get this idea from?

She's originally a Goddess. The angels can restore their former selves because they are inside human hosts and are not physically bound to them. Elizabeth on the other hand is bound to her human body through the curse, so once its lifted she should be able to return to her original form.

Nakaba better do this anyway, because:

-it's amazing.
-It makes her stronger.
-it's pleasing the fans
-would be an immediate sign of her being released from the curse.

half of those reason are pleasing just for you. Nakaba don't cater just to you.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Elizabeth wasn’t complelty off guard though.

Pretty sure she was considering her entire attitude changed from ''yes I will fight you now for meliodas-sama'' to '' please listen to me!''

She knew the situation was tense

So?

She said she was willing to fight

Yeah, before Ludoshel killed innocent demon civilians right before her and changed the situation completely.

She was ready to fight before that happened, but the second it happened she was more concerned about Derriere to listen to her rather than to fight.

And to top it off, she was looking right at Derieri when she got hit. It’s not like she got hit from the back. She’s in the same situation as all of them. They know there’s a fight, but they aren’t focused.

So? Meliodas was looking directly at Elizabeth and even had his arm on her wrist, doesn't mean he wasn't off-guard though?

And she did take damage. Just because there isn’t blood and bone sticking out doesn’t mean internal damage doesn’t exist. She was ko’ed, as in her brain bounced around in her skull. Getting burnt to death is much different than blunt trauma.

This is the problem though.

Elizabeth has taken worse hits and damage than what Derriere gave to her, yet she never went unconscious.

If it takes a mere 50k basic and normal punch from Derriere to put her down then how did Elizabeth not instantly die from the Gods, regardless of how much they were holding back? Explain that to me.

Sariel is in the same situation as Elizabeth, along with Tarmiel. Elizabeth wasn’t off guard, she just wasn’t taking the situation for what it should’ve been.

Huh? How was she not off-guard?

Sariel is fighting, Elizabeth is merely negotiating and gets hit.

It's not a battle feat what Derriere did, just like how Elizabeth bruising Meliodas would never fly in battle because it happened when he was passive.

Elizabeth getting knocked out would never happen in battle against the same type of attack from Derriere.

Also I’m not talking about harming indura. I’m taking about the damage that Ludo took. Damage has nothing to do with his grace.

His grace gives him speed. You commented that he didn't ''slow down''. Of course he doesn't slow down, his grace gives him immense speed, hence what I said.

As for being cocky, we’ve seen that power levels rise when things are taken seriously or with at least some care according to Gowther. Mel was just using Escanor for target practice.

Meliodas was still fighting and taking the situation seriously to some degree.

half of those reason are pleasing just for you. Nakaba don't cater just to you.

Which reasons?

And where are you and your fancy replies when the anti-elizabeth squad makes reasons that please them only? Because I never see you criticise them, just me even though they do the exact things or worse occassionally.

Yeah, if you have nothing constructive to say, or are just being biased then leave the thread where I can't be asked to read bias or hypocrisy please.

 

[T25]

Elizabeth wasn’t complelty off guard though.
She knew the situation was tense
She said she was willing to fight
And to top it off, she was looking right at Derieri when she got hit. It’s not like she got hit from the back. She’s in the same situation as all of them. They know there’s a fight, but they aren’t focused.

And she did take damage. Just because there isn’t blood and bone sticking out doesn’t mean internal damage doesn’t exist. She was ko’ed, as in her brain bounced around in her skull. Getting burnt to death is much different than blunt trauma.

Sariel is in the same situation as Elizabeth, along with Tarmiel. Elizabeth wasn’t off guard, she just wasn’t taking the situation for what it should’ve been.

Also I’m not talking about harming indura. I’m taking about the damage that Ludo took. Damage has nothing to do with his grace.

As for being cocky, we’ve seen that power levels rise when things are taken seriously or with at least some care according to Gowther. Mel was just using Escanor for target practice.

While I do agree on some of these points, I think your statement about eli’s guard is incorrect. She was trying to placate the situation before it got completely out of her hands. And was then punched. It was careless on Eli’s part but that directly means she was off guard.
You also pointed out that “she was looking right at Derieri when she got hit” as justification for her not being completely off guard but I’m curious if you hold the same sentiment for Mel who was slapped by Eli. Do you?

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Pretty sure she was considering her entire attitude changed from ''yes I will fight you now for meliodas-sama'' to '' please listen to me!''

But is she really that dumb that she'd drop her entire guard around the 10C?

Yeah, before Ludoshel killed innocent demon civilians right before her and changed the situation completely.

She was ready to fight before that happened, but the second it happened she was more concerned about Derriere to listen to her rather than to fight.

Same as the first, I don't think she is that stupid.

This is the problem though.

Elizabeth has taken worse hits and damage than what Derriere gave to her, yet she never went unconscious.

If it takes a mere 50k basic and normal punch from Derriere to put her down then how did Elizabeth not instantly die from the Gods, regardless of how much they were holding back? Explain that to me.

Because the gods can control their power. How is it that Mild has survived over 120K fights with the DK?

Huh? How was she not off-guard?

Sariel is fighting, Elizabeth is merely negotiating and gets hit.

It's not a battle feat what Derriere did, just like how Elizabeth bruising Meliodas would never fly in battle because it happened when he was passive.

Elizabeth getting knocked out would never happen in battle against the same type of attack from Derriere.

Again where is the proof though? We know it doesn't happen to Meliodas because he's taken similar abuse. Elizabeth hasn't and therefore we can only scale her to what her current feats show. You cant just make up durability because it doesn't make sense.

His grace gives him speed. You commented that he didn't ''slow down''. Of course he doesn't slow down, his grace gives him immense speed, hence what I said.

Not literally as in running, I meant that he didn't run out of steam. He got hit but kept getting back up.

Meliodas was still fighting and taking the situation seriously to some degree.

Not according to Diane. She basically said he was leading Escanor like a horse.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 20, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 20, 2018 ---

While I do agree on some of these points, I think your statement about eli’s guard is incorrect. She was trying to placate the situation before it got completely out of her hands. And was then punched. It was careless on Eli’s part but that directly means she was off guard.
You also pointed out that “she was looking right at Derieri when she got hit” as justification for her not being completely off guard but I’m curious if you hold the same sentiment for Mel who was slapped by Eli. Do you?

In my mind the only way she could've been more on guard was if Derieri literally said "I'm going to hit you right now." She was careless, but she knew things were tense and even had kept eye contact with Derieri. Virtually all the AA were careless and cocky, yet only Elizabeth was the one who got knocked out
Sariel didn't expect Derieri to break through tornado
Tarmiel didn't expect that her power would increase
Ludosehl didn't think the indura were serious at first.
All of these guys had their expecations broken, yet they still fought

As for Mel, my position is this: I don't think the slap is a super serious feat because
A. Even people on the Elizabeth side list excuses for why It doesn't always work
B. Mel was instantly dropped by the slap, yet not by Holy Sword Escanor.

 

[Seven777]

Because something always interrupts her or makes sure she can't win.

Example:

-When she's without memories, she's extremely weak and due to her even more so kind nature, won't ever fight someone. Heck, the most she did in her memory-less self was push back Demon-Hendrickson (and the intention was to heal everyone else mainly) and to defend Zaratras from Derriere.

-Even with memories, she's still a fragile human and is not as powerful as her prime-self, so there are limitations to the people she can individually fight.
So what? Obviously human Eli isnt gonna be winning any fights.
-At her strongest and most impressive feat, she was placed in a quite disadvantageous fight. For starters, she's fighting demons who just fodderized 3AA quite easily, and that wasn't even at their strongest form yet. Monspiet effortlessly burned through Tarmiel's and Sariel's defence (via graces) and Ludoshel's magic was unable to do any sort of damage against Derriere who wasn't even taking him seriously (LOL). These demons can individually fodderize all the archangels (besides Mael), and you're placing them in a 1v2 against Elizabeth? Especially when they still have a power-up that can resist her light? Yeah, that's a pretty difficult task, and I'm pretty sure even a Assault Meliodas would have mediocre difficulty against the Indura.

-She fought against the Gods... but yeah.. there's nothing she can do against them sadly, even with Meliodas at her side

Elizabeth has yet to have a full fight 1V1 against opponnents without having unfair circumstances. At her strongest, she fought a 1v2 and a 2v2 against the Gods LMAO - pretty unfair.

Looked pretty fair against Derriere when she got oneshot.

Tarmiel wasn't even being serious though.

He allowed Derriere to rack up over 50 combo hits on him for free, no resistance or anything.

It's like Arthur slicing through the masters, it only worked because he allowed Arthur to do that, its not because he was actually powerful enough to do so. Same with Galan and Tarmiel.

So? Its not like Meliodas or Derriere were trying against Elizabeth.

it doesn't matter that the Indura feat is a purification one, if her ''Let Her Be Light'' is THAT powerful (e.g illuminating the battlefield, blinding everyone, pushing everyone back, making the Indura's go ''oh shit fam'') then the rest of her magical abilities (ark) are just going to be as powerful, or on the same scale. Sure, this spell might be her most powerful, given the power and name of the technique, but the rest of her light magic abilities should be somewhere close to that level of strength, even those of her offensive nature, which I think is supported by the fact that a Elizabeth who didn't know what she was doing effortlessly significantly injured a high-tier commandment member.

But it does, because we've seen for ourselves that the rest of her abilities(her arks, her durability, her speed, etc) are not in fact on that level.

That's completely different.

Gowther can take anybody down as long as their spirit stat is low enough.

Gowther could brainwash the Gods if their spirit stat was 0 LMAO

So? I highly doubt Escanor's spirit is lower than Dreyfus', besides, he was just an example, it could be like Dreyfus' Break, Ban's Snatch, Pleides Judgement, Love Drive and Vain, Meluscula's Cocoon of Darkness or stealing souls, Merlins Perfect Cube, etc. Bottom line is that having an OP ability(an incredibly situational one at that) doesnt guarantee great strength in all other aspects.

I think the Indura feat puts her in the range of Assault Meliodas.

I think she's around the 100-120k zone, and if it happens to be true, then it's not far off Meliodas level.

Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if Elizabeth's prime self is AM level, but she just holds herself back all the time

I wouldnt be suprised if her prime self is AM tier either, but also i dont think she has ever reached her prime, and i dont think she ever will until she lets go of her pacifism. As for her being 100-120k, no way, that'd make her stronger than Ludo, and he's quite clearly top dog after Mael.

G.Elizabeth is at best, on par with full emotional Meliodas, and thats just talking about her PL, her actual combat capability would be significantly below that.

This is like me saying ''there is no way someone who got bruised by a weakened Elizabeth has what it takes to succeed the Demon King''.

It would be if Meliodas was knocked out, but unlike Elizabeth he was still conscious afterward.

I don't know why everyone emphasises this scenario? It means absolutely nothing, yet people beat on it all the time to argue she's weak

Because if it was Tarmiel or any other AA they wouldve walked it off and because it means that Elizabeth has terrible durability

This scenario doesn't matter because:

-Elizabeth here isn't actually in battle, is she fighting Derriere? No, she's negotiating and merely looking out for the interest of peace for all clans. Heck, she was even taking more off-guard by the fact that Ludoshel just murdered innocent civilians and was trying to calm down Derriere. As @MrSchmitty7 emphasises heavily, PL's increase substantially in battle, so Elizabeth being ''one shot'' (it really isn't, she got up with no damage a few moments later) doesn't translate to the same happening in battle.

So what if she's not in actual battle? She was looking right at Derriere when she got punched out, this wasnt a surprise attack. Elizabeth simply couldnt do anything. 1st mark Zeldris was shot in the back by Ludociel and you don't see him fainting afterwards.

Because for example, in battle, Elizabeth could and would: keep her distance, dodge or avoid attacks, defend herself with her magic (e.g ark bubbling herself), or just ark spam Derriere to death.

Would never happen, Elizabeth doesnt have the speed.

Elizabeth bruising a passive 142k Meliodas doesn't mean anything in the long term, because it would never happen in battle due to him being able to avoid it in numerous ways, yet the exact same situation happens to Elizabeth (she's off-guard this time and hit instead of Meliodas) and everyone tries to emphasise how this would happen in a battle situation as well? Stop with these double standard arguments please

Theres no double standard arguement, Meliodas could still fight after Eli's slap, Eli couldnt after Derriere's.

-Just my opinion, but Nakaba clearly had to find a way to get Elizabeth out of the way so the angels and commandments can fight each other without being interrupted by the pacifist princess. Hence the whole ''let's knock her unconscious when she's trying to negotiate!'' and have the angels come in swearing revenge for their ''Lady Elizabeth'' . In the simple words of @MrSchmitty7 ''lol dramatic effect''

There wouldve been better ways to do it that dont make a supposedly 100k+ character look like a chump

 

[T25]

In my mind the only way she could've been more on guard was if Derieri literally said "I'm going to hit you right now." She was careless, but she knew things were tense and even had kept eye contact with Derieri. Virtually all the AA were careless and cocky, yet only Elizabeth was the one who got knocked out
Sariel didn't expect Derieri to break through tornado
Tarmiel didn't expect that her power would increase
Ludosehl didn't think the indura were serious at first.
All of these guys had their expecations broken, yet they still fought

As for Mel, my position is this: I don't think the slap is a super serious feat because
A. Even people on the Elizabeth side list excuses for why It doesn't always work
B. Mel was instantly dropped by the slap, yet not by Holy Sword Escanor.

She did not see it coming. No matter how obvious to us as reader, she did not expect to be punched. That is off guard. It is because she did not have her guard up in that situation that we consider it careless. What does the aa being able to continue fighting despite being careless have to do with wether or not Eli was off guard? I would also like to ask why you think Arthur was able to perform the physical feats he did when he pulled Excalibur.

I did not ask whether or not you think the slap was a feat. I do not care. I asked wether or not you think Mel was on or off guard based on your statement that Eli was “looking right at derieri” when she was punched. May I ask for your answer?

 

[Seven777]

She did not see it coming. No matter how obvious to us as reader, she did not expect to be punched. That is off guard. It is because she did not have her guard up in that situation that we consider it careless. What does the aa being able to continue fighting despite being careless have to do with wether or not Eli was off guard? I would also like to ask why you think Arthur was able to perform the physical feats he did when he pulled Excalibur.

I did not ask whether or not you think the slap was a feat. I do not care. I asked wether or not you think Mel was on or off guard based on your statement that Eli was “looking right at derieri” when she was punched. May I ask for your answer?

Why would he be on guard against her? He literally told her to hit him.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

She did not see it coming. No matter how obvious to us as reader, she did not expect to be punched. That is off guard. It is because she did not have her guard up in that situation that we consider it careless. What does the aa being able to continue fighting despite being careless have to do with wether or not Eli was off guard? I would also like to ask why you think Arthur was able to perform the physical feats he did when he pulled Excalibur.

I did not ask whether or not you think the slap was a feat. I do not care. I asked wether or not you think Mel was on or off guard based on your statement that Eli was “looking right at derieri” when she was punched. May I ask for your answer?

No one expects to be punched though. It's not like Sarierl, Tarmiel, and Ludo woke up and went, I'm gonna get punched today, better be on my guard. You can try to be prepared for attacks, but realistically I don't think they willingly accepted that they would take damage that day. All four of those Goddesses were innatentive in one way shape or form, but Elizabeth was the only one knocked out. Even when she was looking directly at a visibly angry derieri.

As for the Mel thing, Mel is kinda the same as Elizabeth. Mel certainly wasn't braced or anything or acting like his life depended on it. He knew the situation could've resulted in an attack and like Elizabeth did nothing to prepare for it and basically carelessly allowed himself to get hit unbraced. So basically imo did Mel brace for the attack, no. Was he completely blindsided by it, no because he allowed it. Was Elizabeth braced for her attack, no. Was she blindsided by it, no. She saw Deri was mad, was looking directly at her, and knew the situation was bad. The only way I would really consider her being blindsided is if Deri tried to assassinate her.

 

[Gut's is the man]

Pretty sure she was considering her entire attitude changed from ''yes I will fight you now for meliodas-sama'' to '' please listen to me!''



So?



Yeah, before Ludoshel killed innocent demon civilians right before her and changed the situation completely.

She was ready to fight before that happened, but the second it happened she was more concerned about Derriere to listen to her rather than to fight.



So? Meliodas was looking directly at Elizabeth and even had his arm on her wrist, doesn't mean he wasn't off-guard though?



This is the problem though.

Elizabeth has taken worse hits and damage than what Derriere gave to her, yet she never went unconscious.

If it takes a mere 50k basic and normal punch from Derriere to put her down then how did Elizabeth not instantly die from the Gods, regardless of how much they were holding back? Explain that to me.



Huh? How was she not off-guard?

Sariel is fighting, Elizabeth is merely negotiating and gets hit.

It's not a battle feat what Derriere did, just like how Elizabeth bruising Meliodas would never fly in battle because it happened when he was passive.

Elizabeth getting knocked out would never happen in battle against the same type of attack from Derriere.



His grace gives him speed. You commented that he didn't ''slow down''. Of course he doesn't slow down, his grace gives him immense speed, hence what I said.



Meliodas was still fighting and taking the situation seriously to some degree.



Which reasons?

And where are you and your fancy replies when the anti-elizabeth squad makes reasons that please them only? Because I never see you criticise them, just me even though they do the exact things or worse occassionally.

Yeah, if you have nothing constructive to say, or are just being biased then leave the thread where I can't be asked to read bias or hypocrisy please.

-it's amazing.
-it's pleasing the fans

Also i'm less anti-elizabeth. (honestly I don't give a fuck about her as a character. The only other major cast member I care less for is Diane.) and more hopeful for a bittersweet ending. (Mel's death would occur as well which the very fact you overlooked I stated that would happen as well just make it sound like you are defensive of liz to the point of overlooking other statements.)

 

[T25]

No one expects to be punched though. It's not like Sarierl, Tarmiel, and Ludo woke up and went, I'm gonna get punched today, better be on my guard. You can try to be prepared for attacks, but realistically I don't think anyone goes through a preparation process for getting hit. All four of those Goddesses were innatentive in one way shape or form, but Elizabeth was the only one knocked out. Even when she was looking directly at a visibly angry derieri.

As for the Mel thing, Mel is kinda the same as Elizabeth. Mel certainly wasn't braced or anything or acting like his life depended on it. He knew the situation could've resulted in an attack and like Elizabeth did nothing to prepare for it and basically carelessly allowed himself to get hit unbraced.

The aa were ready to fight and to defend, they were cocky. That reduces their guard it does not negate it. Eli however had no guard whatsoever. I do not deny that Eli’s physicality is lacking to them. But to say that she was knocked out despite being in the same defensive position as the aa is not something I find true.

You initially said that Eli had some level of guard meaning she braced herself to some degree but was still knocked out. Here you say mel was kind of the same as Eli and used the word “unbraced.” Derieri was shaking in anger. After Eli pleaded for her to listen, deri threw an untelegraphed punch to the face. Unexpected. Mel on the otherhand told Eli to slap him if it made her feel better. To which she raised her hand created an ark , to which Mel stared up at, then brought it down. Was that unguarded? The same unguarded? Eli did not expect. Mel did.

-it's amazing.
-it's pleasing the fans

Also i'm less anti-elizabeth. (honestly I don't give a fuck about her as a character. The only other major cast member I care less for is Diane.) and more hopeful for a bittersweet ending. (Mel's death would occur as well which the very fact you overlooked I stated that would happen as well just make it sound like you are defensive of liz to the point of overlooking other statements.)

Doesn’t that mean you have a much more negative outlook on her actions? Since you put your disinterest in her so bluntly. She hasn’t done anything to gain your interest of her. Therefore the things she does won’t interest you and instead it is easier to see her failures. You say you don’t care about her character but comment on this thread for her regarding what you believe to be undue credit. Therefore I would imagine you don’t like her getting undue credit correct? Is it not true that a persons intrrest in a character would affect there perception of the character? What then do you think about this character in terms of power, potential and personality?

 

[MrSchmitty7]

The aa were ready to fight and to defend, they were cocky. That reduces their guard it does not negate it. Eli however had no guard whatsoever. I do not deny that Eli’s physicality is lacking to them. But to say that she was knocked out despite being in the same defensive position as the aa is not something I find true.

You initially said that Eli had some level of guard meaning she braced herself to some degree but was still knocked out. Here you say mel was kind of the same as Eli and used the word “unbraced.” Derieri was shaking in anger. After Eli pleaded for her to listen, deri threw an untelegraphed punch to the face. Unexpected. Mel on the otherhand told Eli to slap him if it made her feel better. To which she raised her hand created an ark , to which Mel stared up at, then brought it down. Was that unguarded? The same unguarded? Eli did not expect. Mel did.

Doesn’t that mean you have a much more negative outlook on her actions? Since you put your disinterest in her so bluntly. She hasn’t done anything to gain your interest of her. Therefore the things she does won’t interest you and instead it is easier to see her failures. You say you don’t care about her character but comment on this thread for her regarding what you believe to be undue credit. Therefore I would imagine you don’t like her getting undue credit correct? Is it not true that a persons intrrest in a character would affect there perception of the character? What then do you think about this character in terms of power, potential and personality?

But in order to say Elizabeth had no “guard”, she would literally have to had been in a peaceful and serene scene with no signs of threat.

Elizabeth knew the situation was tense
Elizabeth knew that she could have to fight
Elizabeth knew that Deri was mad.

Even if Elizabeth doesn’t think to herself “I’m in trouble” her body, mind, and emotions would definitely tense up and let her know that something was wrong. Your guard isn’t up once a fight starts, it’s up once things get bad. Hence fight or flight.

As for my usage of the word guard, that’s probably because the word can be interchangeable at times, so for now I’ll use these two terms just to clarify.
Guard: you are blocking/ prepared for an attack
Aware: you know the situation is bad, but aren’t necessarily braced/ guarding yourself.

In that instance Elizabeth wasn’t on her guard but she was aware that the situation was bad. Same with Mel. He was not braced, but he knew what Elizabeth was up to and even told her to hit him.

Sariel knew he was in a fight, yet kept his eyes closed and didn’t bother to check if anything could happen.
Tarmiel didn’t even bother to try and stop Deri from punching him
Ludo didn’t take the indura seriously or even attempt to move at first.

 

[Gut's is the man]

The aa were ready to fight and to defend, they were cocky. That reduces their guard it does not negate it. Eli however had no guard whatsoever. I do not deny that Eli’s physicality is lacking to them. But to say that she was knocked out despite being in the same defensive position as the aa is not something I find true.

You initially said that Eli had some level of guard meaning she braced herself to some degree but was still knocked out. Here you say mel was kind of the same as Eli and used the word “unbraced.” Derieri was shaking in anger. After Eli pleaded for her to listen, deri threw an untelegraphed punch to the face. Unexpected. Mel on the otherhand told Eli to slap him if it made her feel better. To which she raised her hand created an ark , to which Mel stared up at, then brought it down. Was that unguarded? The same unguarded? Eli did not expect. Mel did.

Doesn’t that mean you have a much more negative outlook on her actions? Since you put your disinterest in her so bluntly. She hasn’t done anything to gain your interest of her. Therefore the things she does won’t interest you and instead it is easier to see her failures. You say you don’t care about her character but comment on this thread for her regarding what you believe to be undue credit. Therefore I would imagine you don’t like her getting undue credit correct? Is it not true that a persons intrrest in a character would affect there perception of the character? What then do you think about this character in terms of power, potential and personality?

power- aside from indura she doesn't seem anything special compared to the other AA. And far below her equivalents in the demon clan, (mel or Zel) inspite of being the same age as mel and likely twice as old as zeldris.

potential - seemingly a mixed bag. She should be able to succeed her mother. But there no implication that she is a worthy heir, heck Mael A non royal seems to have more potential.

personality- just okay. Lacks the interesting personalty traits of Zel, mel, mael or any of the other AA. I'd say she might be my second least favorite female characte rin terms of personalty. (Diane who doesn't really have munch of a character. Heck I consider Guila more then either of them.) She feel's too munch of a supporting character and I find her action against mel becoming demon hypocritical and dis logical. She has made no implication or idea of finding a alternate way to undo the curse and aside from the real life reference and context of it obviously going to be lifted. (which if the biggest reason to support a character action is a out of universe principle and not anything mentioned in story. Then you have already failed) I enjoyed her pacifistic nature and philosophy but it feels as though thats been brushed to the side unless it benefits her. (derieri leaving the demons, which veers too closely to a trope I absolutely despise in just about any medium of story telling. A former villain leaving the other side to good guys. Since it is almost always too convenient for the heroes and the same never happens to heroes who fall and end up on the enimies side. I hated it when Gloxina and drole left the demons only to die in a heroic sacrifice instead of serving as a challenge King and DIane had to overcome to prove themselves as rulers of their respective clans.)

overall Liz is better then you typical female dualtagonist in shonen since she does have character and a interesting backstory. But the bets aspects of her are what she is, her connections to other characters.

 

[T25]

But in order to say Elizabeth had no “guard”, she would literally have to had been in a peaceful and serene scene with no signs of threat.

Elizabeth knew the situation was tense
Elizabeth knew that she could have to fight
Elizabeth knew that Deri was mad.

Even if Elizabeth doesn’t think to herself “I’m in trouble” her body, mind, and emotions would definitely tense up and let her know that something was wrong. Your guard isn’t up once a fight starts, it’s up once things get bad. Hence fight or flight.

As for my usage of the word guard, that’s probably because the word can be interchangeable at times, so for now I’ll use these two terms just to clarify.
Guard: you are blocking/ prepared for an attack
Aware: you know the situation is bad, but aren’t necessarily braced/ guarding yourself.

In that instance Elizabeth wasn’t on her guard but she was aware that the situation was bad. Same with Mel. He was not braced, but he knew what Elizabeth was up to and even told her to hit him.

Sariel knew he was in a fight, yet kept his eyes closed and didn’t bother to check if anything could happen.
Tarmiel didn’t even bother to try and stop Deri from punching him
Ludo didn’t take the indura seriously or even attempt to move at first.

Very true however you continue to compare Eli’s situation with the aa as if they were the same. I believe this is faulty. You spoke of all four of them being “aware” that the situation was headed to a violent result and that despite this only Eli was unconscious when taking a hit unlike the aa who met with the same circumstance. You also speak of adrenaline. However I think it’s these things that make their situations very different.

To start with, the aa and higher ranked members of stigma enacted a plan unbeknownst to Eli. A violent plan. A plan to lure and annhilate. When the bait they threw caught its prey, before the prey fell into their cage Eli stopped them. Being completely unaware of this plan, eli only had protecting and appeasing the prey on her mind. However ludo, in this moment took advantage and used her, casting the net and cage that thusly also held Eli. Without warning, Eli’s efforts and actions were flipped on its head against her. Stuck in a cage and still wishing to help the prey she desperately tried to communicate. She failed and was knocked unconscious.

The aa plan went accordingly. Eli’s was flipped on its head with little time to react effectively. This creates very different conditions I believe. The aa went in fully aware of a battle and confident. Their arrogance was a result of their confidence in their plan and power. It created optimal bodily conditions that suffered set backs due to an over abundance of confidence. But not enough to render them out. Eli on the other hand went in with only the desire to protect and defend. However she was used and the confidence or preparation she had was largely destroyed.

Based on this, the awareness of danger they all had and it’s effects were not the same. The aa went in with over confidence. A state of readiness that gave them optimal bodily conditions that were only knocked down a peg. They went in ready to dish out and be dished out to. Eli went in with assurance and had it destroyed and flipped on her. The adrenaline you speak of was not self preservation that enables a person to perform effectively on occasion I believe. It was panic. On one hand you have a condition where you are able to perform above your norm and hyper sense of awareness. On the other hand you have a condition that impedes you and renders you unable to perform to the norm. For instance you can vomit, have headaches and feel weak. Your sense of awareness would decrease and you’d become sensitive to motion, touch or sound. Those are on opposite poles of the spectrum. The question is how much in what direction. Thus Eli would have been on the panic side and suffered it effects unlike the aa.

What do you think?

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 20, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 20, 2018 ---

power- aside from indura she doesn't seem anything special compared to the other AA. And far below her equivalents in the demon clan, (mel or Zel) inspite of being the same age as mel and likely twice as old as zeldris.

potential - seemingly a mixed bag. She should be able to succeed her mother. But there no implication that she is a worthy heir, heck Mael A non royal seems to have more potential.

personality- just okay. Lacks the interesting personalty traits of Zel, mel, mael or any of the other AA. I'd say she might be my second least favorite female characte rin terms of personalty. (Diane who doesn't really have munch of a character. Heck I consider Guila more then either of them.) She feel's too munch of a supporting character and I find her action against mel becoming demon hypocritical and dis logical. She has made no implication or idea of finding a alternate way to undo the curse and aside from the real life reference and context of it obviously going to be lifted. (which if the biggest reason to support a character action is a out of universe principle and not anything mentioned in story. Then you have already failed) I enjoyed her pacifistic nature and philosophy but it feels as though thats been brushed to the side unless it benefits her. (derieri leaving the demons, which veers too closely to a trope I absolutely despise in just about any medium of story telling. A former villain leaving the other side to good guys. Since it is almost always too convenient for the heroes and the same never happens to heroes who fall and end up on the enimies side. I hated it when Gloxina and drole left the demons only to die in a heroic sacrifice instead of serving as a challenge King and DIane had to overcome to prove themselves as rulers of their respective clans.)

overall Liz is better then you typical female dualtagonist in shonen since she does have character and a interesting backstory. But the bets aspects of her are what she is, her connections to other characters.

Respectable. As for the parting with Mel part, I have a semblance of agreement in that she has not shown much in regards to how to solve the issue. But my outlook on it is that she knows the goal but is searching/pondering for a method. Before I comment on the hypocrite part I would like to ask for you to define what you mean by it?

 

[Gut's is the man]

Very true however you continue to compare Eli’s situation with the aa as if they were the same. I believe this is faulty. You spoke of all four of them being “aware” that the situation was headed to a violent result and that despite this only Eli was unconscious when taking a hit unlike the aa who met with the same circumstance. You also speak of adrenaline. However I think it’s these things that make their situations very different.

To start with, the aa and higher ranked members of stigma enacted a plan unbeknownst to Eli. A violent plan. A plan to lure and annhilate. When the bait they threw caught its prey, before the prey fell into their cage Eli stopped them. Being completely unaware of this plan, eli only had protecting and appeasing the prey on her mind. However ludo, in this moment took advantage and used her, casting the net and cage that thusly also held Eli. Without warning, Eli’s efforts and actions were flipped on its head against her. Stuck in a cage and still wishing to help the prey she desperately tried to communicate. She failed and was knocked unconscious.

The aa plan went accordingly. Eli’s was flipped on its head with little time to react effectively. This creates very different conditions I believe. The aa went in fully aware of a battle and confident. Their arrogance was a result of their confidence in their plan and power. It created optimal bodily conditions that suffered set backs due to an over abundance of confidence. But not enough to render them out. Eli on the other hand went in with only the desire to protect and defend. However she was used and the confidence or preparation she had was largely destroyed.

Based on this, the awareness of danger they all had and it’s effects were not the same. The aa went in with over confidence. A state of readiness that gave them optimal bodily conditions that were only knocked down a peg. They went in ready to dish out and be dished out to. Eli went in with assurance and had it destroyed and flipped on her. The adrenaline you speak of was not self preservation that enables a person to perform effectively on occasion I believe. It was panic. On one hand you have a condition where you are able to perform above your norm and hyper sense of awareness. On the other hand you have a condition that impedes you and renders you unable to perform to the norm. For instance you can vomit, have headaches and feel weak. Your sense of awareness would decrease and you’d become sensitive to motion, touch or sound. Those are on opposite poles of the spectrum. The question is how much in what direction. Thus Eli would have been on the panic side and suffered it effects unlike the aa.

What do you think?

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 20, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 20, 2018 ---

Respectable. As for the parting with Mel part, I have a semblance of agreement in that she has not shown much in regards to how to solve the issue. But my outlook on it is that she knows the goal but is searching/pondering for a method. Before I comment on the hypocrite part I would like to ask for you to define what you mean by it?

She specificly asked Mel to lift the curse no matter what and made him promise before she even told him about the curse. It really doesn't make her come off well. I could forgive ehr turning against Mel to find another way if their was any forshadowing about one.

 

[Commanderaxe]

power- aside from indura she doesn't seem anything special compared to the other AA. And far below her equivalents in the demon clan, (mel or Zel) inspite of being the same age as mel and likely twice as old as zeldris.

potential - seemingly a mixed bag. She should be able to succeed her mother. But there no implication that she is a worthy heir, heck Mael A non royal seems to have more potential.

personality- just okay. Lacks the interesting personalty traits of Zel, mel, mael or any of the other AA. I'd say she might be my second least favorite female characte rin terms of personalty. (Diane who doesn't really have munch of a character. Heck I consider Guila more then either of them.) She feel's too munch of a supporting character and I find her action against mel becoming demon hypocritical and dis logical. She has made no implication or idea of finding a alternate way to undo the curse and aside from the real life reference and context of it obviously going to be lifted. (which if the biggest reason to support a character action is a out of universe principle and not anything mentioned in story. Then you have already failed) I enjoyed her pacifistic nature and philosophy but it feels as though thats been brushed to the side unless it benefits her. (derieri leaving the demons, which veers too closely to a trope I absolutely despise in just about any medium of story telling. A former villain leaving the other side to good guys. Since it is almost always too convenient for the heroes and the same never happens to heroes who fall and end up on the enimies side. I hated it when Gloxina and drole left the demons only to die in a heroic sacrifice instead of serving as a challenge King and DIane had to overcome to prove themselves as rulers of their respective clans.)

overall Liz is better then you typical female dualtagonist in shonen since she does have character and a interesting backstory. But the bets aspects of her are what she is, her connections to other characters.

I honestly do think Nakaba should've gave her a more warrior/healer hybrid type personality. Sorta like Sakura(lol yea i'm actually mentioning Sakura). Problem is, Sakura's personality is trash, Elizabeth isn't...well, the worst. Her personality is dry, yes, but not a complete disaster. If Nakaba basically took Derriere's personality, and sprinkled a tad of Elizabeth's mercy and benevolence, we'd have a perfect ass female lead. But nope, we have this. Funny enough it's her very personality that has led to her fan's being so blue balled. Everytime they go "ooh shes finally gonna fight woooo yeaaa boiii!" Elizabeth ends up either getting kidnapped, saved, or just purifying. Shit's hilarious

 

[T25]

She specificly asked Mel to lift the curse no matter what and made him promise before she even told him about the curse. It really doesn't make her come off well. I could forgive ehr turning against Mel to find another way if their was any forshadowing about one.

Ah I see. Hmm if I were put in a situation where I had told someone to do whatever means necessary for their sake, as I do not believe she said that for her own sake, I would not be pleased if they went and did something against their morals. Even if I do understand that there is a level of hypocrisy in that.

I do not understand what you would consider foreshadowing. The fact that she did not approve of the change in his demeanor was foreshadow enough by definition of cause and effect and progression, no?

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 20, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 20, 2018 ---

I honestly do think Nakaba should've gave her a more warrior/healer hybrid type personality. Sorta like Sakura(lol yea i'm actually mentioning Sakura). Problem is, Sakura's personality is trash, Elizabeth isn't...well, the worst. Her personality is dry, yes, but not a complete disaster. If Nakaba basically took Derriere's personality, and sprinkled a tad of Elizabeth's mercy and benevolence, we'd have a perfect ass female lead. But nope, we have this. Funny enough it's her very personality that has led to her fan's being so blue balled. Everytime they go "ooh shes finally gonna fight woooo yeaaa boiii!" Elizabeth ends up either getting kidnapped, saved, or just purifying. Shit's hilarious

But see that’s a preference in personality and doesn’t justify why a character is a good character or bad one. A good character and a bad one would by defined by their level of inconsistency don’t you think? I think that a particular type of character would be cool to but I wouldn’t say that the authors character is not good because of that.

 

[OtakuFreak]

But is she really that dumb that she'd drop her entire guard around the 10C?

Same as the first, I don't think she is that stupid.

Her pacifist nature takes advantage of her.

She was that concerned of Derriere, her own safety went out of the window.

Hell, Elizabeth without memories is incapable of healing herself because she was THAT concerned about everyone else that her healing would only work on others. Just one example of how altruistic she is.

Because the gods can control their power. How is it that Mild has survived over 120K fights with the DK?

So you're saying to me that two Gods together can reduce their power below 50k? And with that level of strength end up overpowering Meliodas in his AA tier form and end up getting through to Elizabeth as well? LOL?

And Mild is a mysterious creature from purgatory, he's special + the Demon King is weaker than his 50% there.

And its against 1 God rather than Elizabeth being against the both of them.

Again where is the proof though? We know it doesn't happen to Meliodas because he's taken similar abuse. Elizabeth hasn't and therefore we can only scale her to what her current feats show. You cant just make up durability because it doesn't make sense.

Her getting knocked out by Derriere makes no sense, literally.

Elizabeth as a human can resist her throat being crushed by a Demon who is twice as strong as Derriere

Elizabeth as a human without memories or being aware of it, can neutralise or out-heal poison in her system THAT should kill any normal human.

Elizabeth as a human was also thrown around by holy knights and smacked on the head consistently yet she never fainted immediately.

Elizabeth at her strongest can stand in front of the two characters in the series who can fodderize anyone, and not be instantly deleted by their first attack, regardless of how much they were holding back.

If that isn't enough for you, let me ask you this:

Why are you taking this moment so seriously? This isn't a battle feat against Elizabeth. She was off-guard. It's obviously easier to knock someone unconscious if they aren't expecting it, plus, Elizabeth basically took no damage from it, so in a real battle it would never knock her out completely.

Not literally as in running, I meant that he didn't run out of steam. He got hit but kept getting back up.

Wasn't he half-bent over in pain or discomfort though?

Not according to Diane. She basically said he was leading Escanor like a horse.

Source or chapter?

Looked pretty fair against Derriere when she got oneshot.

She was off-guard. How is it fair?

So? Its not like Meliodas or Derriere were trying against Elizabeth.

And was she trying against them?

Not when she wasn't at her prime and strongest self, and used basic ark against them.

But it does, because we've seen for ourselves that the rest of her abilities(her arks, her durability, her speed, etc) are not in fact on that level.

I wouldnt be suprised if her prime self is AM tier either, but also i dont think she has ever reached her prime, and i dont think she ever will until she lets go of her pacifism. As for her being 100-120k, no way, that'd make her stronger than Ludo, and he's quite clearly top dog after Mael.

G.Elizabeth is at best, on par with full emotional Meliodas, and thats just talking about her PL, her actual combat capability would be significantly below that.

Because if it was Tarmiel or any other AA they wouldve walked it off and because it means that Elizabeth has terrible durability

So what if she's not in actual battle? She was looking right at Derriere when she got punched out, this wasnt a surprise attack. Elizabeth simply couldnt do anything. 1st mark Zeldris was shot in the back by Ludociel and you don't see him fainting afterwards.

LOL? You're trying to gauge Elizabeth's battle capabilities from a moment of where she was off-guard and not in battle? You do realise that makes no sense right?

That's like me saying Meliodas couldn't react to a human speed slap in battle because Elizabeth was able to make contact without resistance, yet you're ignoring the context of him being off-guard as well.

Sure, Elizabeth fainted but at least Zeldris was half-prepared to take an ark blast from Ludoshel, unlike Elizabeth who was 100% passive and in the mindset of trying to calm down Derriere rather than fight.

Would never happen, Elizabeth doesnt have the speed.

Where did you get that impression from?

She has wings, she can fly.

And she effortlessly kept up with Gloxinia and Meliodas when they were flying at high speeds.

God, can people stop thinking she's some turtle who can get blitzed by every character in the series?

Hell, you would all bitch and moan that she would get blitzed by fucking Hawk when there's evidence she's fairly nimble herself.

Theres no double standard arguement, Meliodas could still fight after Eli's slap, Eli couldnt after Derriere's.

Yes there is a double standard.

*Meliodas gets hit off-guard by Elizabeth*

Fandom: Doesn't matter, its not a battle feat and wouldn't happen in battle, and tbh its a comedy effect rather than anything factual.

*Elizabeth gets hit off-guard by Derriere*

Fandom: lol she's so weak. god this fodder bitch is so weak, even guila could one shot her.

It's the exact same situation, but with Elizabeth everyone jumps on the bandwagon of putting her down. Hell, you try to praise Elizabeth for passively hurting a 142k demon and the demon fanboys get salty and come up with the most pathetic arguments of ''LOL lover's arguments don't count'' or ''lol comedy effect''.

People are always harsher and stricter on Elizabeth. Anything she does receives less praise and more criticism than the majority of other characters in the series, even if they have parallel situations. Example? Ludoshel minimally hurts a off-guard Zeldris and he gets praise and accepted for that. Elizabeth does the same to Meliodas? Has to be comedy effect LOL and is outright rejected without thought.

There wouldve been better ways to do it that dont make a supposedly 100k+ character look like a chump

Well by that comparison Zeldris looks like a chump considering he's been stomped and bamboozled too many times in this manga, yet everyone takes his power seriously.

She specificly asked Mel to lift the curse no matter what and made him promise before she even told him about the curse. It really doesn't make her come off well. I could forgive ehr turning against Mel to find another way if their was any forshadowing about one.

Yeah, that's a acceptable flaw of Elizabeth's character.

She basically begged Meliodas to accept a promise that forces him to become Demon King, then she turns around and says he cannot become Demon King because she doesn't want it

She's a hypocrite in that standard, but so is Meliodas.

The cursed lovers have their issues

Everytime they go "ooh shes finally gonna fight woooo yeaaa boiii!" Elizabeth ends up either getting kidnapped, saved, or just purifying. Shit's hilarious

I mean purifying still proves how powerful her magic is overall with ark, it just doesn't show what would happen in a 1v1 regarding the physical aspects of her character.

You don't even need to see Elizabeth fighting. Just having a backstory on her powers, confirmation on her prime PL and on other aspects of her magic/character is enough for the majority of the fandom. Granted, I would love to see her fight at least once in this manga as a Goddess in a 1v1 to the death, but as long as she gets confirmation on her PL I'm happy with her staying as the first and foremost purification mage.

 

[Commanderaxe]

But see that’s a preference in personality and doesn’t justify why a character is a good character or bad one. A good character and a bad one would by defined by their level of inconsistency don’t you think? I think that a particular type of character would be cool to but I wouldn’t say that the authors character is not good because of that.

Well it does in terms of your target audience. In a shounen where the main target audience are teens to young adult males, Elizabeth CERTAINLY does not appeal to them. It's why the majority of their favorite females happen to be Derriere, Merlin, or Diane. And it's why overall, our favorite characters are Escanor and Meliodas. It's just the preference of that specific demographic. Now of course he has every right to make his character how he wishes, i'm just saying he could've easily pleased both demographics( the females AND the much larger male audience) by sprinkling in some aspects they both desire. It's why we all love Hinata so much from Naruto. She's practically Elizabeth in personality, but at the same time, isnt afraid to give a thorough badass ass whooping hence why she has much less haters than Sakura. Sakura is badass but her overall personality is terrible. Both are important

You don't even need to see Elizabeth fighting. Just having a backstory on her powers, confirmation on her prime PL and on other aspects of her magic/character is enough for the majority of the fandom. Granted, I would love to see her fight at least once in this manga as a Goddess in a 1v1 to the death, but as long as she gets confirmation on her PL I'm happy with her staying as the first and foremost purification mage.

Well for the PL thing, I wouldn't mind that, granted the problem with that is that it wouldn't answer the many other questions we have regarding her combat ability such as combat speed, reaction speed, and durability. It would just show what she's fully capable of magic wise.

 

[Gut's is the man]

Her pacifist nature takes advantage of her.

She was that concerned of Derriere, her own safety went out of the window.

Hell, Elizabeth without memories is incapable of healing herself because she was THAT concerned about everyone else that her healing would only work on others. Just one example of how altruistic she is.



So you're saying to me that two Gods together can reduce their power below 50k? And with that level of strength end up overpowering Meliodas in his AA tier form and end up getting through to Elizabeth as well? LOL?

And Mild is a mysterious creature from purgatory, he's special + the Demon King is weaker than his 50% there.

And its against 1 God rather than Elizabeth being against the both of them.



Her getting knocked out by Derriere makes no sense, literally.

Elizabeth as a human can resist her throat being crushed by a Demon who is twice as strong as Derriere

Elizabeth as a human without memories or being aware of it, can neutralise or out-heal poison in her system THAT should kill any normal human.

Elizabeth as a human was also thrown around by holy knights and smacked on the head consistently yet she never fainted immediately.

Elizabeth at her strongest can stand in front of the two characters in the series who can fodderize anyone, and not be instantly deleted by their first attack, regardless of how much they were holding back.

If that isn't enough for you, let me ask you this:

Why are you taking this moment so seriously? This isn't a battle feat against Elizabeth. She was off-guard. It's obviously easier to knock someone unconscious if they aren't expecting it, plus, Elizabeth basically took no damage from it, so in a real battle it would never knock her out completely.







Wasn't he half-bent over in pain or discomfort though?



Source or chapter?



She was off-guard. How is it fair?



And was she trying against them?

Not when she wasn't at her prime and strongest self, and used basic ark against them.











LOL? You're trying to gauge Elizabeth's battle capabilities from a moment of where she was off-guard and not in battle? You do realise that makes no sense right?

That's like me saying Meliodas couldn't react to a human speed slap in battle because Elizabeth was able to make contact without resistance, yet you're ignoring the context of him being off-guard as well.

Sure, Elizabeth fainted but at least Zeldris was half-prepared to take an ark blast from Ludoshel, unlike Elizabeth who was 100% passive and in the mindset of trying to calm down Derriere rather than fight.




Where did you get that impression from?

She has wings, she can fly.

And she effortlessly kept up with Gloxinia and Meliodas when they were flying at high speeds.

God, can people stop thinking she's some turtle who can get blitzed by every character in the series?

Hell, you would all bitch and moan that she would get blitzed by fucking Hawk when there's evidence she's fairly nimble herself.



Yes there is a double standard.

*Meliodas gets hit off-guard by Elizabeth*

Fandom: Doesn't matter, its not a battle feat and wouldn't happen in battle, and tbh its a comedy effect rather than anything factual.

*Elizabeth gets hit off-guard by Derriere*

Fandom: lol she's so weak. god this fodder bitch is so weak, even guila could one shot her.

It's the exact same situation, but with Elizabeth everyone jumps on the bandwagon of putting her down. Hell, you try to praise Elizabeth for passively hurting a 142k demon and the demon fanboys get salty and come up with the most pathetic arguments of ''LOL lover's arguments don't count'' or ''lol comedy effect''.

People are always harsher and stricter on Elizabeth. Anything she does receives less praise and more criticism than the majority of other characters in the series, even if they have parallel situations. Example? Ludoshel minimally hurts a off-guard Zeldris and he gets praise and accepted for that. Elizabeth does the same to Meliodas? Has to be comedy effect LOL and is outright rejected without thought.







Well by that comparison Zeldris looks like a chump considering he's been stomped and bamboozled too many times in this manga, yet everyone takes his power seriously.



Yeah, that's a acceptable flaw of Elizabeth's character.

She basically begged Meliodas to accept a promise that forces him to become Demon King, then she turns around and says he cannot become Demon King because she doesn't want it

She's a hypocrite in that standard, but so is Meliodas.

The cursed lovers have their issues



I mean purifying still proves how powerful her magic is overall with ark, it just doesn't show what would happen in a 1v1 regarding the physical aspects of her character.

You don't even need to see Elizabeth fighting. Just having a backstory on her powers, confirmation on her prime PL and on other aspects of her magic/character is enough for the majority of the fandom. Granted, I would love to see her fight at least once in this manga as a Goddess in a 1v1 to the death, but as long as she gets confirmation on her PL I'm happy with her staying as the first and foremost purification mage.

How is mel a hypocrite in that scenario.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 20, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 20, 2018 ---

Ah I see. Hmm if I were put in a situation where I had told someone to do whatever means necessary for their sake, as I do not believe she said that for her own sake, I would not be pleased if they went and did something against their morals. Even if I do understand that there is a level of hypocrisy in that.

I do not understand what you would consider foreshadowing. The fact that she did not approve of the change in his demeanor was foreshadow enough by definition of cause and effect and progression, no?

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 20, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 20, 2018 ---

But see that’s a preference in personality and doesn’t justify why a character is a good character or bad one. A good character and a bad one would by defined by their level of inconsistency don’t you think? I think that a particular type of character would be cool to but I wouldn’t say that the authors character is not good because of that.

It was more a promise for both their sakes. It also would have helped if instead of Elizabeth just telling Mel no it won't happen and he mustn't without trying to pursade him. (aside from not seeing his friends again we have no reason for why Mel shouldn't become DK. Heck the fact he left and betrayed his friends among the demons kinda makes leaving his friends and lover for her and his sake actually kind of karmic in a twisted way.) She seemed controlling and forceful. If the gender were switched the whole situation would be far more uncomfortable. Not helping is the sins choose to combat him and fight instead of trying to learn what he'll do and what being demon king would entail. It makes the Sins and Elizabeth come off as selfish and foolish.

 

[Seven777]

She was off-guard. How is it fair?

Elizabeth was looking right at her, it wasnt a sneak attack and she didnt get anyone else's help to do it, its as fair as any standard 1v1.

And was she trying against them?

Not when she wasn't at her prime and strongest self, and used basic ark against them.

Her not being in her prime isnt really the point, not mine anyway. My point is, low PL characters like Galand can cleave Tarmiel in half, serious or not, Elizabeth dealing comparatively minor injuries to her betters isnt any more surprising.

LOL? You're trying to gauge Elizabeth's battle capabilities from a moment of where she was off-guard and not in battle? You do realise that makes no sense right?

An enemy that Elizabeth was looking right at knocked her out in one blow, judging her by that makes perfect sense.

That's like me saying Meliodas couldn't react to a human speed slap in battle because Elizabeth was able to make contact without resistance, yet you're ignoring the context of him being off-guard as well.

He wasnt off guard either, he simply chose to let her hit him.

Sure, Elizabeth fainted but at least Zeldris was half-prepared to take an ark blast from Ludoshel, unlike Elizabeth who was 100% passive and in the mindset of trying to calm down Derriere rather than fight.

Not prepared enough to dodge it apparently, besides, like with Gowther, Zeldris was just an example, did Mael get K.O'd when King cheap shotted him from behind while he was"off-guard"? And Elizabeth not being fast enough to react to an attack coming from right in front of her is at least as bad.

Where did you get that impression from?

Her not avoiding the attack Derriere threw at her in the actual manga.

She has wings, she can fly.

So does and can Derriere.

And she effortlessly kept up with Gloxinia and Meliodas when they were flying at high speeds.

Derriere is more powerful than Gloxinia

God, can people stop thinking she's some turtle who can get blitzed by every character in the series?

Sure, when she learns to dodge.

Hell, you would all bitch and moan that she would get blitzed by fucking Hawk when there's evidence she's fairly nimble herself.

What evidence?

Yes there is a double standard.

*Meliodas gets hit off-guard by Elizabeth*

Fandom: Doesn't matter, its not a battle feat and wouldn't happen in battle, and tbh its a comedy effect rather than anything factual.

*Elizabeth gets hit off-guard by Derriere*

Fandom: lol she's so weak. god this fodder bitch is so weak, even guila could one shot her.

It's the exact same situation, but with Elizabeth everyone jumps on the bandwagon of putting her down. Hell, you try to praise Elizabeth for passively hurting a 142k demon and the demon fanboys get salty and come up with the most pathetic arguments of ''LOL lover's arguments don't count'' or ''lol comedy effect''.

I never said the first part, so its not a double standard.

People are always harsher and stricter on Elizabeth. Anything she does receives less praise and more criticism than the majority of other characters in the series, even if they have parallel situations. Example? Ludoshel minimally hurts a off-guard Zeldris and he gets praise and accepted for that. Elizabeth does the same to Meliodas? Has to be comedy effect LOL and is outright rejected without thought.

I dont particularly care about "people" or how they judge Elizabeth, though i will say that it probably has to do with her being a damsel in distress all the time. If a character is portrayed in a certain way, people will judge them by that, nothing strange about it.

Well by that comparison Zeldris looks like a chump considering he's been stomped and bamboozled too many times in this manga, yet everyone takes his power seriously.

I dont ever remember Zeldris getting oneshot