Discussion Emperors vs Admirals vs Commanders

[Fox666]

The series has consistently shown that the Emperors and Marine Admirals are on equal footing, and capable of easily defeating the Commanders of an Emperor's crew.


Emperors vs Admirals (statements)


We were told a few times that in order to become the Pirate King, Luffy must defeat the Emperors and Admirals.

This implies these are the greatest powers in the world.

Spoiler

According to Mother Caramel, if Linlin joined the Marines, she could have become an Admiral or Fleet Admiral

Spoiler

Gol D. Roger asked the Marines to summon Garp or Sengoku to fight him (Sengoku was an Admiral at the time).

Spoiler

According to the author, if Akainu was the protagonist, the series would end within a year.

This implies that Akainu is someone capable of challenging the Emperors.

Interview between Oda and Yasutaka Nakata:

"When creating a protagonist, it is important not to make him too strong. For example, if Akainu becomes the protagonist, he is so strong that he can put an end to ONE PIECE within a year."


Emperors vs Admirals (combat)


Aokiji and Kizaru showed they were physically strong enough to stop Whitebeard's bisento.

Spoiler

Kizaru was unharmed after being cut by Whitebeard, possibly because his Haki is also on par with Whitebeard's.

Spoiler

Akainu in particular had a fierce fight with Whitebeard. The fight ended with Whitebeard loosing part of his head, while Akainu escaped underground.

Spoiler

Garp was said to have fought Gol D. Roger several times.

Sengoku was strong enough to stop Garp when he tried to attack Akainu.

Spoiler

It took Shanks to finally stop Akainu.

Spoiler

Emperors vs Commanders (statements)


Smoothie declared Big Mom would kill her and the entire crew after she was done with the Straw Hats.

Spoiler

Katakuri did't even consider the possibility of stopping Big Mom's rampage.

Spoiler

Queen said if Big Mom wakes up, she will kill him and everyone in Udon

Spoiler

Emperors vs Commanders (combat)


After being defeated by Whitebeard, Ace tried to kill him in several instances, including during his sleep, but failed every time.

Spoiler

Doflamingo was capable of easily stopping Jozu with his ability.

Doflamingo was frightened of hearing from Law that he would have to fight Kaido.

Spoiler

Judge was Snack's opponent at the end of the Whole Cake Island arc.

Nonetheless, Judge stood no chance against Big Mom.

Spoiler

Luffy had already defeated two of the Sweet Commanders, yet he was defeated by a single blow from Kaido.

Spoiler

Queen was hopeless against Big Mom.

Spoiler

Three of the Nine Red Scabbards fought evenly with Jack, and probably a few others could too.

Spoiler

Even so, Kaido was able to hold his own in a fight against all of the Scabbards.

This shows how a single Emperor is strong enough to fight against several Commanders.

Spoiler

Admirals vs Commanders (combat)


Marco and Vista attacked Akainu together, but it had no effect.

Spoiler

All of the Whitebeard Pirates joined together (plus Crocodile) against Akainu.

Spoiler

And was not enough to stop him.

Spoiler

Jinbe fought Ace to a standstill for five days.

Jinbe was easily defeated by Akainu.

Spoiler

Blackbeard defeated two of the Whitebeard Commanders

Spoiler

Despite Blackbeard acquiring even greater power, Sengoku got the better of his entire crew

Spoiler

The Blackbeard Pirates decided it would be better to run away instead of facing Akainu

Spoiler

 

[M3J]

A Yonko can def take down an admiral. They are not equal in strength.
Look at how scared Marine HQ or the WG were of waging war against WB.
They had to call the Warlords to come help out vs WB Pirates.

Also Kiku ? YC1? Nope.

And yet, Aokiji, Akainu, and Kizaru were still standing at the end, especially Akainu despite taking hits from Whitebeard. The Marines weren't scared of waging war against Whitebeard, but they know that going up against an Emperor would result in heavy losses, whether they won or lost. If a Yonkou could take down an admiral, then why hasn't any Emperor tried?

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

IMO, the Yonko have a very slight edge over any admiral in a one vs one situation.
If there was to be a fight to the death between one random Yonko and one random Admiral, I'd bet on a Yonko to come out on top in the end - without much doubt.
Both are the strongest individuals in their respective niche - pirates and marines - that's a fact.

 

[LadyVados]

Unpopular Opinion- The average Warlord > The average Yonko commander

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 31, 2020, Original Post Date: Oct 31, 2020 ---

Both are the strongest individuals in their respective niche - pirates and marines - that's a fact.

I’d say there are exceptions like Garp, Rayleigh, Mihawk, etc.

 

[Luke Beifong]

Just perfect your analysis about the strength of the Admirals and the Yonkos. I always see them as equals. They are the forces that balance the world after all. My only question is the Fleet Admiral. He is technically stronger than the others Admirals, so he is stronger than the Yonkos? Or the difference in power is so little that doesn’t matter in the end? What’s your opinion about it?

 

[Fox666]

Just perfect your analysis about the strength of the Admirals and the Yonkos. I always see them as equals. They are the forces that balance the world after all. My only question is the Fleet Admiral. He is technically stronger than the others Admirals, so he is stronger than the Yonkos? Or the difference in power is so little that doesn’t matter in the end? What’s your opinion about it?

I don't think I can answer that. There don't seem to be a big difference in strength between an Admiral and a Fleet Admiral. The Emperors aren't exact equals either.

 

[Silvers Horse]

@Fox666 What a nice analysis -> no headcanon just panels!

I have a few remarks: We must remember that WB was old and sick at Marine Ford. There is also the panel where Ben Beckman threatens Kizaru and Kizaru replies "scary" even though Kizaru still attacks Law's fleeing submarine after. It is also relevant that the Five Elders consider Marco a possible yonkou candidate. Rayleigh fought Kizaru one v one somewhat evenly.

I believe yonkou's in their prime (WB 10-20 years ago, Kaido now) are stronger that the admirals one v one. I believe the admirals are almost identical in power. And the power of the commanders vary a lot. Meaning that most commanders would get destroyed against a admiral or an yonkou one v one, but a few of them can stand their ground even though they'll still loose in the end. Like Marco, Rayleigh and maybe King.

I also don't think that the Fleet admiral is the strongest admiral by default. It is politics. Like when Akainu was backed by the celestial dragons and Aokiji was backed by Sengoku for the new FA position.

 

[Fox666]

I have a few remarks: We must remember that WB was old and sick at Marine Ford.

Whitebeard was sick, but I don't know how to quantify that. He was still considered the "strongest man" and an almost unstoppable force at Marineford.

There is also the panel where Ben Beckman threatens Kizaru and Kizaru replies "scary" even though Kizaru still attacks Law's fleeing submarine after.

I tried to avoid cases like that, or surprise attacks like Jozu hitting Aokiji and vice-versa, etc.

Also I didn't included examples that depends only on how Devil Fruits works such as Akainu killing Ace.

It is also relevant that the Five Elders consider Marco a possible yonkou candidate.

Not exactly. The Gorosei mentioned Marco as one of the forces that could stop Blackbeard. It wouldn't necessarily take an Emperor or Admiral to confront Blackbeard.

Rayleigh fought Kizaru one v one somewhat evenly.

I didn't included Rayleigh as a Commander because the hierarchy of the Roger Pirates is not clear. All the Emperors had Commanders, Executives, etc.

I also don't think that the Fleet admiral is the strongest admiral by default. It is politics. Like when Akainu was backed by the celestial dragons and Aokiji was backed by Sengoku for the new FA position.

In the end it was decided in a duel. Nonetheless, there never was much difference between Akainu and the others.

 

[albertwv]

The WG created the Warlords system to keep pirates like the Yonko at bay. They were needed to help fight the WB pirates. Sengoku himself said that, the Marines might lose the war because WB could destroy the world.
The only real Yonko vs Admirals evidence we have is from Old and sick WB vs the admirals taking advantage/capitalizing on his sickness.
But as soon as a healthy yonko shows up all the admirals calm down.

If the Marines or Admirals alone can take down the Yonko, why dont they already?

The WG/Marines are afraid of 2 Yonko joining alliances. Oda has stressed out the fact on Both Kaido and BM's durability, but never the admirals.

 

[Luke Beifong]

The WG created the Warlords system to keep pirates like the Yonko at bay. They were needed to help fight the WB pirates. Sengoku himself said that, the Marines might lose the war because WB could destroy the world.
The only real Yonko vs Admirals evidence we have is from Old and sick WB vs the admirals taking advantage/capitalizing on his sickness.
But as soon as a healthy yonko shows up all the admirals calm down.

If the Marines or Admirals alone can take down the Yonko, why dont they already?

The WG/Marines are afraid of 2 Yonko joining alliances. Oda has stressed out the fact on Both Kaido and BM's durability, but never the admirals.

The biggest problem in 2 Yonko joining forces is the military power they will have. Just imagine how many soldiers BM and Kaido have together? Even if a Admiral have the same strength of a Yonko, did the Marines alone have the same strength of 2 Yonko crew? And even if the Marines fight against 2 Yonko and won, they will just need absolutely everything they have in their sleeves to win. And with this, the balance of the world will be just destroyed. Because many pirates crew will try to conquer the Yonko territory, wars can be fought all around the world and the Marines will don’t have the power to fight back. That’s my interpretation.

And the Marines don’t attack the Yonko for a simple motive. Here in Brazil we have a saying that says “do not poke the Jaguar with a short stick”. That means, if the things are more or less in peace, why trigger a war? You need to be very confident in your power and in what you want with that war. The Marines think that killing Ace and WB they will put a stop in the Gold Age of Pirates, but turn that WB put everything in flames before he dies. In the end, the Marines kill Ace and WB, but they lost the war against the WB pirates. Anyway, going for that logic, what’s good can come by fighting BM or Kaido? Nothing.

 

[M3J]

The WG created the Warlords system to keep pirates like the Yonko at bay. They were needed to help fight the WB pirates. Sengoku himself said that, the Marines might lose the war because WB could destroy the world.
The only real Yonko vs Admirals evidence we have is from Old and sick WB vs the admirals taking advantage/capitalizing on his sickness.
But as soon as a healthy yonko shows up all the admirals calm down.

If the Marines or Admirals alone can take down the Yonko, why dont they already?

The WG/Marines are afraid of 2 Yonko joining alliances. Oda has stressed out the fact on Both Kaido and BM's durability, but never the admirals.

So basically, it was because of Whitebeard's devil fruit and not necessarily because of his emperor level strength that Sengoku said the Marines might lose the war.

If an Emperor alone can take down the Marines, why don't they already? Especially Kaidou, who wants to bring the world into chaos.

 

[The Prince of Darkness]

If an Emperor alone can take down the Marines, why don't they already

Totally agree with you on that but the same thing can be said for the Admirals. If an Admiral can take down an Emperor, why don't they already ?
That's what makes me believe Emperor>>Admiral cuz with someone who hate and want to eradicate Pirates so much Akainu if he had the power to the peak of piracy (Emperor) he'd go for them one by one, especially now that he controles all the Navy.

Also, can Marineford fights really be taken as exemples ? I mean, back then Oda didn't really have the rules about Hakis and it was hard to understand for must of it

 

[M3J]

I'm not saying an admiral can beat an emperor though, just that there's no way to conclude who's better, other than Whitebeard possibly being superior to almost anyone. And I doubt Akainu can take on an Emperor and their crew. The reason why there is a deadlock is because if any of the group started warring each other, even the winner would take heavy loss and be easy pickings for the next opponent.

Like, when the Marines fought the Whitebeard pirates, the Whitebeard pirates suffered heavy casualties that made them easy pickings for enemies like Blackbeard and Weevil whereas if Whitebeard and/or Ace were still alive, they could have kept their territories or minimize their losses.

 

[kkck]

I would agree in that admirals are ahead of top 3 commanders but by all appearances admirals are closer to the commanders than the yonko... Based on the marineford events, marco and jozu actually were problematic enemies for the admirals they faced. Jozu got defeated by aokiji of course but the series did add the context of this being due to jozu being distracted by what had just happened to WB. I do believe aokiji would have eventually won that fight of course but not nearly as fast as he did otherwise. Marco was rather consistently capable of pushing back admirals, more so than jozu.

So far the yonko have been shown so powerful than they even tower over their mightiest subordinates. Big mom was nigh invulnerable back at the whole cake island arc... Kaido one shot gear 4 luffy. And easily defeated drake and hawkins... WB was old and wounded and even then he was able to trash the admirals when they faced him directly. Oda did say akainu is so strong he could end the story within a year... but we also have to consider that he was nowhere near capable of going toe to toe with WB. And while he did injure WB, there is the consideration that WB was not only past his prime and sick but also full of holes from an insanely long battle. Had that been WB in his prime.... akainu would not have lasted at all.

Another consideration here is that the war was highly favorable towards the marines and by extension akainu while very unfavorable towards the WB pirates. The marines played defense through the first half and then tried to prevent the WB pirates from escaping. The WB pirates went through every bit of preparation the marines could muster and then back. It's just a fact that under these circumstances the WB pirates accumulated far more damage than the marines. Not only the marines had an important home advantage, they had far more soldiers and resources.

Roger did say the bit about bringing him sengoku and garp... But there is the consideration this was a different age where yonko weren't a thing. We don't really know how strong garp and sengoku were back in the day for that matter. It is entirely possible that at their primes both were well stronger than the contemporary admirals. So it is possible garp and sengoku were yonko level while the current admirals aren't. And it is also possible that akainu wasn't yonko level 2 years ago and is now.

Caramel did say big mom could become an admiral... But big mom was a child back then, caramel couldn't have possibly foreseen her becoming a force greater than an admiral. We shouldn't take this bit as the author saying admirals and yonko are equal.

If the admirals were as strong as a full powered yonko... WB's forces would have been easily foderised at marineford.

 

[HereNThere]

The Yonkou and Marines don't take each other out for the same reason Yonkou don't take each other out. The risk of loss is too high for a victory that isn't guranteed.

The Marines felt the need to stack victory as much in their favor as they could before proceeding with the execution. I don't think it was because the Admirals are weaker, but because they needed to mitigate their losses as much as they could as, even if they won without all of the prep, they would've been left in a vulnerable position afterward, leaving them open to other Yonkou attacks or even the Revolutionaries.

As for the Commanders and Admirals, that's a bit harder and I feel this comes down to certain characters. The war demonstrates that they can at least tangle with them for a period, but Marco in particular was the only major Commander who was able to keep trucking, even after his attention was split and he was injured. He didn't hold off Akainu, but it was shown he wasn't injured by either confrontation. They appeared to have been split up at some point.

If we assume that Sabo is comparable to, let's say, Katakuri and, maybe, King, then we can probably use his performance as a gauge. He was able to fight against Fujitora for a spell, but he was clearly on the wrong side of a beat down as he was the only one who scuffed up and injured. At the Reverie, those 4 Commanders clashed with 2 Admirals again and it doesn't seem like things turned out well for them, although they were able to injure Fujitora this time.

 

[XXGenesis]

Admirals & Yonkou are practically equal.
Yonkou have a giant dangerous crew, influence & territory.

While Admirals have a even bigger fleet slightly less dangerous, but more resources & territory. Also getting assistance from another Admiral isn’t a problem, while Yonkou’s won’t help each other unless dire circumstances or situations.

The Commanders are like a bandaid being placed on a gash that needs stitches....It’s not going to really help. We’ve seen Queen get K.O with brute strength, & Luffy recieved a real 1 hit k.o with a weapon & Haki. They are going to get thrashed one after another. After holding out slightly. YC1 may be able to take a few blows and recover with minimal vitality..but they can’t win.

3 Admirals & there are 4/5 Yonkou.....Last Admiral standing is going to be to worn out to win against their equal

 

[Fox666]

Could the Emperors take down the Marines?

A single Emperor alone doesn't have enough power to take down the Marines. To do so, the Emperors would have to form an alliance, but they don't trust each other. The likes of Kaido or Blackbeard would prefer to get rid of another Emperor instead of fighting the Marines.

Besides, why would the Emperors declare war against the Marines? The Emperors rule over the New World. It's not of the interest of pirates to fight unless under direct threat.

Could the Marines take down the Emperors?

The Marines don't have enough power to take down the combined power of all Emperors. They would have to attack one at a time, which would force the others to form an alliance. That would put the World Government sovereignty at risk.

And naturally the threat of pirates only gives the World Government more power. If pirates ceased to exist, nations would not have to pay the Heavenly Tribute.

 

[McNuss]

The WG created the Warlords system to keep pirates like the Yonko at bay. They were needed to help fight the WB pirates. Sengoku himself said that, the Marines might lose the war because WB could destroy the world.
The only real Yonko vs Admirals evidence we have is from Old and sick WB vs the admirals taking advantage/capitalizing on his sickness.
But as soon as a healthy yonko shows up all the admirals calm down.

If the Marines or Admirals alone can take down the Yonko, why dont they already?

The WG/Marines are afraid of 2 Yonko joining alliances. Oda has stressed out the fact on Both Kaido and BM's durability, but never the admirals.

Of the 7 Warlords called...

Two openly betrayed them.
One secretly betrayed them.
Two didn't bother much.

There were only two Warlords that actually aided the Marines with all their might, one a mindless robot, the other deemed as disposable trash afterwards.

Add to the facts that another just disposed Warlord aided the Pirates side, you can say that the Shishibukai system was more detrimental to the marines than useful.

 

[XXGenesis]

Could the Emperors take down the Marines?

A single Emperor alone doesn't have enough power to take down the Marines. To do so, the Emperors would have to form an alliance, but they don't trust each other. The likes of Kaido or Blackbeard would prefer to get rid of another Emperor instead of fighting the Marines.

Besides, why would the Emperors declare war against the Marines? The Emperors rule over the New World. It's not of the interest of pirates to fight unless under direct threat.

Could the Marines take down the Emperors?

The Marines don't have enough power to take down the combined power of all Emperors. They would have to attack one at a time, which would force the others to form an alliance. That would put the World Government sovereignty at risk.

And naturally the threat of pirates only gives the World Government more power. If pirates ceased to exist, nations would not have to pay the Heavenly Tribute.

They can take down 1 Yonkou. Not the entire class system. Without some ace up their sleeve. Like Pre-occupying another Yonkou’s or diverting their attention somewhere else.

We seen WBP vs Marines, WG didn’t even send in their super special forces that I’m sure are in Marijeois. Either Way WB has help from his friends also...Marines simply have too much resources and are better strategist with more territory.

The Commanders sadly are overpowered. They stand on the other side of the threshold or precipe. Beckman may be able to last longer than King, Katakuri & Marco. Either way everybody besides them gets clocked sooner or later. And if their opponents are serious they flat out die or sustain serious injury very quickly.

Admirals need to create one more spot and then they’ll be perfect match 1 v 1 Against the Yonkou.

 

[M3J]

One of the main advantages that the Marines had was being able to set up ambushes and plan well on their turf as they knew Whitebeard would be coming. Marco also benefited from his devil fruit power, which allowed him to recover from hits after hits. But all in all, the admirals did remarkably better than majority of the pirates, except for Luffy, Whitebeard, and Marco.