Discussion Emperors vs Admirals vs Commanders

[Ramen]

It's pretty much canon that the Yonko and Admirals are the greatest powers.

 

[thedude]

I think Emperors >= Admirals > Warlords. The first two are very close, whether that's Garp (admiral level) being near equal to Roger, and the two of them being able to crush the Rox pirates, or Akainu taking off half of WB's face, etc. But Warlords never showed that level in any arc, save for the very temporary warlord Blackbeard.

A warlord could potentially be as strong, like the Blackbeard example, but in general, the current warlords seems a step below. Even Doflamingo was seemingly no match for ex Admiral Aokiji.

 

[Fox666]

I would agree in that admirals are ahead of top 3 commanders but by all appearances admirals are closer to the commanders than the yonko... Based on the marineford events, marco and jozu actually were problematic enemies for the admirals they faced. Jozu got defeated by aokiji of course but the series did add the context of this being due to jozu being distracted by what had just happened to WB. I do believe aokiji would have eventually won that fight of course but not nearly as fast as he did otherwise. Marco was rather consistently capable of pushing back admirals, more so than jozu.

I avoided including some more questionable situations.

Jozu managed to hit Aokiji, however he caught Aokiji off-guard when he was distracted fighting Whitebeard. Also I presume that due to Jozu's Devil Fruit, there's barely anyone in the world who can take a diamond jab. The same goes when Jozu was defeated, he was distracted and couldn't handle Aokiji's ability.

Marco was also mostly using his Devil Fruit to his advantage. His regeneration ability is similar to a Logia, plus he can fly. While he landed hits (with Haki) on the 3 Admirals, but he didn't left damage on any of them. His most impressive feats was blocking Kizaru and Akainu attacks. However, when he protected Whitebeard from Kizaru's lasers, his body was destroyed but he regenerated. In Akainu's case, it's because the temperature of his blue flames are above Ace's.

The same goes for when Ace blocked Aokiji's ability, or was killed by Akainu. It's all about how their Devil Fruits interact.

 

[kkck]

I avoided including some more questionable situations.

Jozu managed to hit Aokiji, however he caught Aokiji off-guard when he was distracted fighting Whitebeard. Also I presume that due to Jozu's Devil Fruit, there's barely anyone in the world who can take a diamond jab. The same goes when Jozu was defeated, he was distracted and couldn't handle Aokiji's ability.

Marco was also mostly using his Devil Fruit to his advantage. His regeneration ability is similar to a Logia, plus he can fly. While he landed hits (with Haki) on the 3 Admirals, but he didn't left damage on any of them. His most impressive feats was blocking Kizaru and Akainu attacks. However, when he protected Whitebeard from Kizaru's lasers, his body was destroyed but he regenerated. In Akainu's case, it's because the temperature of his blue flames are above Ace's.

The same goes for when Ace blocked Aokiji's ability, or was killed by Akainu. It's all about how their Devil Fruits interact.

Yeah, but it is worth noting that by all appearances jozu was handling himself well until WB was attacked and got distracted.

I would argue that any framing in which marco's ability is compared to a logias is wrong. Kinda like how comparing buggy to a logia would be wrong. The mechanics behind logia intangibility and marco's regeneration have nothing in common. When stuff go through marco... His body actually took damage. As in, there was an actual wound in his body that got immediately healed. When something goes through a logia the user's body took zero damage. There simply was no interaction between the logias body and the thing that went through. Also worth noting, marco did more than block kizaru, he also kicked him back a fair distance.

Akainu's not really sure of what akainu's temperature and ace's have to do with marco. We don't even know if marco's flames are hot or if they can even be used to burn stuff (so far marco has used them solely for healing). And marco would probably just heal from akainu's attack. Unless he gets wholy burned to a crisp.... Marco would easily survive the attack that killed ace, it'd take a fair bit more effort to finish marco off.

 

[albertwv]

Like I mentioned before, the greatest examples and maybe only we have of Yonko vs Admirals are Old and Sick WB in Marineford (enemy territory that was well guarded and prepared for his arrival) vs fresh Admirals in their home territory.

The WBP lost at MF due to being in enemy territory, numbers, Warlords, not all key members of WBP present to fight (Thatch and Ace), WB holding back from destroying the island because Ace was chained up and deception by their own (Squardo).
Now let's switch scenarios. Punk hazard being the arena, same amount of Pirates and Marines. All key members of the WBP (Thatch and Ace), healthy WB, no deception among ranks, no Warlords, and no rescue mission just plain fighting. The results would differ extremely.

IF the admirals were the same as Yonko, as we seen with BM and Kaido on how they handled YC level pirates (G4 Luffy and Queen), then why didnt the admirals one shotted the WB YCs? Such as Marco, Jozu and Ace (Aokiji vs Ace). Even Garp who maybe as strong or slightly stronger than Akainu, punched Marco but didnt knock him out. If that was Kaido or BM, Marco couldve gone down and not gotten up as quickly.

Jozu and Marco only got injured when they lost focus because WB got sick, that is when the admirals took the opportunity and dealt major damage to the YCs. If WB wasnt sick, Jozu vs Aokiji wouldve taken longer and ultimately, Aokiji winning but with high difficulty.

The Emperor's dont go take down the Admirals because that's not their job to do so or goal in reality. It is actually the opposite, the Admirals should be going hunting down the Emperors, that is literally their job. Criminals don't go after cops, its the opposite, cops go after criminals. Unless they are terrorists or in OP verse, Revolutionaries. So it doesnt make sense for an Emperor to go fight off an Admiral, if the Admirals really wanted to get rid of the Emperors then they would go after them.

Yonko > Garp/Sengoku/Rayleigh >/= Admirals (Trio) > YCs > Warlords > Yonko Executives >/= VAs

 

[Nie Li]

IF the admirals were the same as Yonko, as we seen with BM and Kaido on how they handled YC level pirates (G4 Luffy and Queen), then why didnt the admirals one shotted the WB YCs? Such as Marco, Jozu and Ace (Aokiji vs Ace). Even Garp who maybe as strong or slightly stronger than Akainu, punched Marco but didnt knock him out. If that was Kaido or BM, Marco couldve gone down and not gotten up as quickly.

Jozu and Marco only got injured when they lost focus because WB got sick, that is when the admirals took the opportunity and dealt major damage to the YCs. If WB wasnt sick, Jozu vs Aokiji wouldve taken longer and ultimately, Aokiji winning but with high difficulty.

But why didn't WB oneshot the admirals, then? Sick or not, he attacked Akainu with full killing intent, adrenaline and bloodlust and got some clean hits in with his DF on top of his haki.

Akainu was healthy enough after taking those to still absolutely dominate the likes of Jinbei and the whole WB crew.

Marco and Jozu's respective durabilities are really special cases. Especially Marco, since he just instantly heals every hit he takes, one cannot accumulate damage on him through normal means, and unlike logia, being attacked with haki doesn't counter his DF.

Now let's switch scenarios. Punk hazard being the arena, same amount of Pirates and Marines. All key members of the WBP (Thatch and Ace), healthy WB, no deception among ranks, no Warlords, and no rescue mission just plain fighting. The results would differ extremely.

Of course the Marines had an advantage on Marineford, there's no denying that, but would the results really differ extremely? Let's think about it.

I'll start by ignoring the "healthy" WB premise, simply because "healthy WB" is not a thing. He aged poorly and he was constantly ill. We have zero information on how strong he was when he was young, but we know that he was still 100% a Yonko when he was sick, so it's fair to consider this form of him here. Otherwise I could also say "well, Garp was old" and go by the hype of his prime power.

Why do you want to take the Warlords away but still leave the allied pirate crews that are not part of WB crew (there were multiple pirate captains helping him on Marineford)? If we take away the external help, then there would also be many less pirates. Not only that but, as others pointed out, Warlords ended up being more of a help to WB than they were to the marines (1 switched sides, 2 attacked both sides, 2 didn't care, 1 was useless, so pretty much only Kuma was really an asset for the Marines) so taking them away is more of a nerf for the pirates side.

Other great fighters like Crocodile, Ivankov, Inazuma and Oars Jr. were not part of WB's crew so they would also not be there if this was just "plain fighting" between WBs crew and the marines. Lucky for Whitebeard, Squardo would also not be there. If Squardo was there, he would still betray Whitebeard in this new setting, because Akainu would still manipulate him behind the scenes.

The only big advantage from this new setting is not that Ace's free, but the change of location. In this new location, Sengoku can't lay traps so he can't shine as much as the strategist that he is, but of course he would still have at least a plan and all of the Pacifistas that they used to secretly surround the pirates would also be brought here together with the human marine troops.

What would really, really change in this setting?
This would still be decided by the top tiers in the end. Whitebeard can obliterate most if not all of the marine fodders just like Akainu can do the same for most of WB's crew.

WB, Marco, Jozu and Vista (4 people) are the only WB pirates that are worth mentioning in the matchup, and Sengoku, Garp, Akainu, Aokiji and Kizaru (5 people) are the only marines worth mentioning. I ignore Tsuru because we don't know anything about her actual battle potential. Sure, she is considered very strong and she started as the teammate of Garp and Sengoku, but for all we know she could be their Sakura. Ace is strong and had huge potential, sure, but he was oneshottable by Akainu so I don't even take him into account here. WB, however, cannot oneshot any of the marines I mentioned.

Did I forget anyone? Let's compare these guys.

- In the original MF fight, Garp let himself be punched out of the way by a mere G2 Luffy and was severely enraged by his fellow marine Akainu because he executed Ace. Shall we ignore Garp's dubvious loyalties and morals to make this "plain fighting" more fair? Then I can say for sure that at least Garp > Jozu, and it's also very likely that Garp > Marco.

Even if one cannot prove that Garp can "break" Jozu since we haven't seen the limits of Jozu's durability, Garp should be strong enough to punch him out of the island. Not in one shot, since Jozu also showed to be plenty strong and resilient, but Garp is enough to have him out of the game.

- Let's say that Kizaru is enough to either beat Marco or at least keep him in an eternal stalemate (if there's not "distraction" plotline), so let's say that they can both distract each other long enough from the main fight.

- Sengoku and Vista and pretty much wildcards here. Is Sengoku's physical strength comparable to Garp's since he was able of holding him down without using his fruit? One thing that's true is that Sengoku's buddah form took on all of the BB pirates together at the end of Marineford, so I'll say that he can take on Vista. We don't know the exact limits or abilities of any of the two characters, so who would you say that would win between the two? None of the two can oneshot the other, and none have shown what it takes to hurt them, so I will just say it's another stalemate (for lack of feats).

- WB ragdolled Akainu on Marineford, yes, but Akainu did not go down and as I mentioned earlier he still was healthy enough after all of that to still be a monster that the whole WB crew, Vista and Jozu included, considered they had no chance of beating him in that state. And while Akainu took those heavy hits from WB, WB got a hole in his stomach and lost half of his face, so it was not one-sided at all. If we take away Squardo's treason and plot, I'll take away WB's bloodlust from seeing Ace die before his eyes. I'll consider that WB engages Akainu while Ace is busy fighting elsewhere. WB would be a bit healthier but he would be less of a monster against Akainu.

And there is still one toptier, Aokiji in the examples I went for, that is left unengaged by any proper WB subordinate. By Jozu? Sure, then who blocks Garp? Ace didn't live enough to be on Garp's level and, wihle Marco may heal from any damage Garp deals on him, Garp can just swat him away while he goes engage WB.

The war would end up with, at least, a 2 vs 1, if not a 3 vs 1, top tiers vs Whitebeard, and while the commanders were strong enough to delay some of the admirals, they were constantly on inferiority and their defeat was a matter of time.

WB would lose is the likely result, and this is without considering that probably Akainu is able to kill him in a 1vs1. I consider that a fight between them can go either way, similar to Akainu vs Aokiji, but in this context, it wouldn't result in a 1vs1, so WB is screwed.

 

[M3J]

Logic's not making sense.

Healthy Whitebeard would have likely lasted longer and won, but even sick Whitebeard was a force, and he couldn't take down any of the admirals. You simply cannot conclude that the Emperors are superior to the admirals, especially when Whitebeard was touted as the strongest of the Emperors even in his old age and still couldn't take any top name down.

Queen and Luffy are Paramecia, and haki was probably not as fleshed out as it was when those two got rocked, while Ace was logia, Marco has regenerative abilities, and Jozu has a diamond body. Garp didn't even seem to use hardened haki on Marco?

The Emperors don't go to take down admirals because they can't do that without a Pyrrhic victory. Taking down the Marines would actually help them because it'd mean less enemies to deal with. Admirals also know they can't just go after Emperors because again, either side would take too much damage and be easy pickings for the next opponent.

Yonko = Yonkou = Marines > warlords

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2020 ---

But why didn't WB oneshot the admirals, then? Sick or not, he attacked Akainu with full killing intent, adrenaline and bloodlust and got some clean hits in with his DF on top of his haki.

Akainu was healthy enough after taking those to still absolutely dominate the likes of Jinbei and the whole WB crew.

Marco and Jozu's respective durabilities are really special cases. Especially Marco, since he just instantly heals every hit he takes, one cannot accumulate damage on him through normal means, and unlike logia, being attacked with haki doesn't counter his DF.


Of course the Marines had an advantage on Marineford, there's no denying that, but would the results really differ extremely? Let's think about it.

I'll start by ignoring the "healthy" WB premise, simply because "healthy WB" is not a thing. He aged poorly and he was constantly ill. We have zero information on how strong he was when he was young, but we know that he was still 100% a Yonko when he was sick, so it's fair to consider this form of him here. Otherwise I could also say "well, Garp was old" and go by the hype of his prime power.

Why do you want to take the Warlords away but still leave the allied pirate crews that are not part of WB crew (there were multiple pirate captains helping him on Marineford)? If we take away the external help, then there would also be many less pirates. Not only that but, as others pointed out, Warlords ended up being more of a help to WB than they were to the marines (1 switched sides, 2 attacked both sides, 2 didn't care, 1 was useless, so pretty much only Kuma was really an asset for the Marines) so taking them away is more of a nerf for the pirates side.

Other great fighters like Crocodile, Ivankov, Inazuma and Oars Jr. were not part of WB's crew so they would also not be there if this was just "plain fighting" between WBs crew and the marines. Lucky for Whitebeard, Squardo would also not be there. If Squardo was there, he would still betray Whitebeard in this new setting, because Akainu would still manipulate him behind the scenes.

The only big advantage from this new setting is not that Ace's free, but the change of location. In this new location, Sengoku can't lay traps so he can't shine as much as the strategist that he is, but of course he would still have at least a plan and all of the Pacifistas that they used to secretly surround the pirates would also be brought here together with the human marine troops.

What would really, really change in this setting?
This would still be decided by the top tiers in the end. Whitebeard can obliterate most if not all of the marine fodders just like Akainu can do the same for most of WB's crew.

WB, Marco, Jozu and Vista (4 people) are the only WB pirates that are worth mentioning in the matchup, and Sengoku, Garp, Akainu, Aokiji and Kizaru (5 people) are the only marines worth mentioning. I ignore Tsuru because we don't know anything about her actual battle potential. Sure, she is considered very strong and she started as the teammate of Garp and Sengoku, but for all we know she could be their Sakura. Ace is strong and had huge potential, sure, but he was oneshottable by Akainu so I don't even take him into account here. WB, however, cannot oneshot any of the marines I mentioned.

Did I forget anyone? Let's compare these guys.

- In the original MF fight, Garp let himself be punched out of the way by a mere G2 Luffy and was severely enraged by his fellow marine Akainu because he executed Ace. Shall we ignore Garp's dubvious loyalties and morals to make this "plain fighting" more fair? Then I can say for sure that at least Garp > Jozu, and it's also very likely that Garp > Marco.

Even if one cannot prove that Garp can "break" Jozu since we haven't seen the limits of Jozu's durability, Garp should be strong enough to punch him out of the island. Not in one shot, since Jozu also showed to be plenty strong and resilient, but Garp is enough to have him out of the game.

- Let's say that Kizaru is enough to either beat Marco or at least keep him in an eternal stalemate (if there's not "distraction" plotline), so let's say that they can both distract each other long enough from the main fight.

- Sengoku and Vista and pretty much wildcards here. Is Sengoku's physical strength comparable to Garp's since he was able of holding him down without using his fruit? One thing that's true is that Sengoku's buddah form took on all of the BB pirates together at the end of Marineford, so I'll say that he can take on Vista. We don't know the exact limits or abilities of any of the two characters, so who would you say that would win between the two? None of the two can oneshot the other, and none have shown what it takes to hurt them, so I will just say it's another stalemate (for lack of feats).

- WB ragdolled Akainu on Marineford, yes, but Akainu did not go down and as I mentioned earlier he still was healthy enough after all of that to still be a monster that the whole WB crew, Vista and Jozu included, considered they had no chance of beating him in that state. And while Akainu took those heavy hits from WB, WB got a hole in his stomach and lost half of his face, so it was not one-sided at all. If we take away Squardo's treason and plot, I'll take away WB's bloodlust from seeing Ace die before his eyes. I'll consider that WB engages Akainu while Ace is busy fighting elsewhere. WB would be a bit healthier but he would be less of a monster against Akainu.

And there is still one toptier, Aokiji in the examples I went for, that is left unengaged by any proper WB subordinate. By Jozu? Sure, then who blocks Garp? Ace didn't live enough to be on Garp's level and, wihle Marco may heal from any damage Garp deals on him, Garp can just swat him away while he goes engage WB.

The war would end up with, at least, a 2 vs 1, if not a 3 vs 1, top tiers vs Whitebeard, and while the commanders were strong enough to delay some of the admirals, they were constantly on inferiority and their defeat was a matter of time.

WB would lose is the likely result, and this is without considering that probably Akainu is able to kill him in a 1vs1. I consider that a fight between them can go either way, similar to Akainu vs Aokiji, but in this context, it wouldn't result in a 1vs1, so WB is screwed.

to add to this dauntingly long post, wasn't the war mostly in the Marines' favor until Luffy joined the fray? You pointed out Croc and Iva, but I think it was Luffy who changed the tide of the war, and without him, I don't think the Whitebeard pirates would have had an easier time getting to Ace as they did.

Aokiji and Akainu are definitely top tier, and possibly able to deal with Whitebeard.

 

[Nie Li]

Queen and Luffy are Paramecia, and haki was probably not as fleshed out as it was when those two got rocked, while Ace was logia, Marco has regenerative abilities, and Jozu has a diamond body. Garp didn't even seem to use hardened haki on Marco?

Queen?

 

[LadyVados]

I remember back around 2012 there were people who had Marco higher than Big Mom...

On that note, how well do you think Marco will do against BM, could he push her to high diff, stalemate.....

.......win ?

 

[kkck]

But why didn't WB oneshot the admirals, then? Sick or not, he attacked Akainu with full killing intent, adrenaline and bloodlust and got some clean hits in with his DF on top of his haki.

Akainu was healthy enough after taking those to still absolutely dominate the likes of Jinbei and the whole WB crew.

Marco and Jozu's respective durabilities are really special cases. Especially Marco, since he just instantly heals every hit he takes, one cannot accumulate damage on him through normal means, and unlike logia, being attacked with haki doesn't counter his DF.


Of course the Marines had an advantage on Marineford, there's no denying that, but would the results really differ extremely? Let's think about it.

I'll start by ignoring the "healthy" WB premise, simply because "healthy WB" is not a thing. He aged poorly and he was constantly ill. We have zero information on how strong he was when he was young, but we know that he was still 100% a Yonko when he was sick, so it's fair to consider this form of him here. Otherwise I could also say "well, Garp was old" and go by the hype of his prime power.

Why do you want to take the Warlords away but still leave the allied pirate crews that are not part of WB crew (there were multiple pirate captains helping him on Marineford)? If we take away the external help, then there would also be many less pirates. Not only that but, as others pointed out, Warlords ended up being more of a help to WB than they were to the marines (1 switched sides, 2 attacked both sides, 2 didn't care, 1 was useless, so pretty much only Kuma was really an asset for the Marines) so taking them away is more of a nerf for the pirates side.

Other great fighters like Crocodile, Ivankov, Inazuma and Oars Jr. were not part of WB's crew so they would also not be there if this was just "plain fighting" between WBs crew and the marines. Lucky for Whitebeard, Squardo would also not be there. If Squardo was there, he would still betray Whitebeard in this new setting, because Akainu would still manipulate him behind the scenes.

The only big advantage from this new setting is not that Ace's free, but the change of location. In this new location, Sengoku can't lay traps so he can't shine as much as the strategist that he is, but of course he would still have at least a plan and all of the Pacifistas that they used to secretly surround the pirates would also be brought here together with the human marine troops.

What would really, really change in this setting?
This would still be decided by the top tiers in the end. Whitebeard can obliterate most if not all of the marine fodders just like Akainu can do the same for most of WB's crew.

WB, Marco, Jozu and Vista (4 people) are the only WB pirates that are worth mentioning in the matchup, and Sengoku, Garp, Akainu, Aokiji and Kizaru (5 people) are the only marines worth mentioning. I ignore Tsuru because we don't know anything about her actual battle potential. Sure, she is considered very strong and she started as the teammate of Garp and Sengoku, but for all we know she could be their Sakura. Ace is strong and had huge potential, sure, but he was oneshottable by Akainu so I don't even take him into account here. WB, however, cannot oneshot any of the marines I mentioned.

Did I forget anyone? Let's compare these guys.

- In the original MF fight, Garp let himself be punched out of the way by a mere G2 Luffy and was severely enraged by his fellow marine Akainu because he executed Ace. Shall we ignore Garp's dubvious loyalties and morals to make this "plain fighting" more fair? Then I can say for sure that at least Garp > Jozu, and it's also very likely that Garp > Marco.

Even if one cannot prove that Garp can "break" Jozu since we haven't seen the limits of Jozu's durability, Garp should be strong enough to punch him out of the island. Not in one shot, since Jozu also showed to be plenty strong and resilient, but Garp is enough to have him out of the game.

- Let's say that Kizaru is enough to either beat Marco or at least keep him in an eternal stalemate (if there's not "distraction" plotline), so let's say that they can both distract each other long enough from the main fight.

- Sengoku and Vista and pretty much wildcards here. Is Sengoku's physical strength comparable to Garp's since he was able of holding him down without using his fruit? One thing that's true is that Sengoku's buddah form took on all of the BB pirates together at the end of Marineford, so I'll say that he can take on Vista. We don't know the exact limits or abilities of any of the two characters, so who would you say that would win between the two? None of the two can oneshot the other, and none have shown what it takes to hurt them, so I will just say it's another stalemate (for lack of feats).

- WB ragdolled Akainu on Marineford, yes, but Akainu did not go down and as I mentioned earlier he still was healthy enough after all of that to still be a monster that the whole WB crew, Vista and Jozu included, considered they had no chance of beating him in that state. And while Akainu took those heavy hits from WB, WB got a hole in his stomach and lost half of his face, so it was not one-sided at all. If we take away Squardo's treason and plot, I'll take away WB's bloodlust from seeing Ace die before his eyes. I'll consider that WB engages Akainu while Ace is busy fighting elsewhere. WB would be a bit healthier but he would be less of a monster against Akainu.

And there is still one toptier, Aokiji in the examples I went for, that is left unengaged by any proper WB subordinate. By Jozu? Sure, then who blocks Garp? Ace didn't live enough to be on Garp's level and, wihle Marco may heal from any damage Garp deals on him, Garp can just swat him away while he goes engage WB.

The war would end up with, at least, a 2 vs 1, if not a 3 vs 1, top tiers vs Whitebeard, and while the commanders were strong enough to delay some of the admirals, they were constantly on inferiority and their defeat was a matter of time.

WB would lose is the likely result, and this is without considering that probably Akainu is able to kill him in a 1vs1. I consider that a fight between them can go either way, similar to Akainu vs Aokiji, but in this context, it wouldn't result in a 1vs1, so WB is screwed.

There is a pretty good that that WB was enough past his prime to simply not longer have the capacity to one shoot YC1-3-admiral class enemies. During the war a lot of people commented on WB not dodging squall's attack even under those unfavorable circumstances... Something which he would have done easily some time back. As immensely powerful as WB was, I don't think he was anywhere near his prime in general. And odds are that current big mom and kaido surpass marineford WB... At least that would be my bet.

I think this vastly oversimplifies things on the WB front. And to be fair, the punk hazard scenario in question is not exactly a flip on the marineford situation. You are changing a situation where the WB pirates had a massive disadvantage with one where they would be presumably even.

If we go by the marineford arc its fairly clear that Wb's top commanders were marco, jozu and vista... But I would also make the case that based on relatively newer developments several of the commanders perhaps should be regarded as high tiers, except they simply weren't showcased. We saw WB's crew went toe to toe with roger's... But at the time marco and jozu were still basically rookies. WB's more veteran commanders at the time were, as far as I can tell, fossa, rakuyo... and a couple others. Vista was older than marco and jozu though I am not sure if enough to be one of the crew's heavy hitters. And now, even izo has shown at a minimum enough to be with the scabbards against kaido. The crew might just end up having enough heavy hitters to actually counter most of the people you mention (even if some are past their prime).

 

[Nie Li]

There is a pretty good that that WB was enough past his prime to simply not longer have the capacity to one shoot YC1-3-admiral class enemies. During the war a lot of people commented on WB not dodging squall's attack even under those unfavorable circumstances... Something which he would have done easily some time back. As immensely powerful as WB was, I don't think he was anywhere near his prime in general. And odds are that current big mom and kaido surpass marineford WB... At least that would be my bet.

I think this vastly oversimplifies things on the WB front. And to be fair, the punk hazard scenario in question is not exactly a flip on the marineford situation. You are changing a situation where the WB pirates had a massive disadvantage with one where they would be presumably even.

If we go by the marineford arc its fairly clear that Wb's top commanders were marco, jozu and vista... But I would also make the case that based on relatively newer developments several of the commanders perhaps should be regarded as high tiers, except they simply weren't showcased. We saw WB's crew went toe to toe with roger's... But at the time marco and jozu were still basically rookies. WB's more veteran commanders at the time were, as far as I can tell, fossa, rakuyo... and a couple others. Vista was older than marco and jozu though I am not sure if enough to be one of the crew's heavy hitters. And now, even izo has shown at a minimum enough to be with the scabbards against kaido. The crew might just end up having enough heavy hitters to actually counter most of the people you mention (even if some are past their prime).

You can take into account other WB commanders, but most were fodder when compared to Akainu and can likely be countered by marines like Momonga or Tsuru who I also left out.

It's implied that younger/healthier WB was stronger, but "younger/healthier WB" simply does not exist. He was a yonko as a sick and old man. As I said, if we want to magically consider his strength from 20 years ago, then let's also consider young Garp and young Sengoku, and we know that young Garp together with Rogers' crew took down Xebec (WB, BM and Kaido included) so it's better for WB's side if we don't consider their past selves (not saying Prime Garp necessarily is stronger than Prime WB, but Prime Garp + Akainu is).

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2020 ---

Whether this means that BM or Kaido are stronger than Marineford WB I don't know, it's possible, but my whole post was especifically about the WB vs Marines scenario.

I don't think that it would be all that different with BM or Kaido or they would have challenged and brought down the marine headquarters years ago.

 

[M3J]

Queen?

dunno, I keep thinking about his ability to poison for some reason.

Prime Whitebeard I think would be unmatched by anyone except for maybe Garp, Sengoku, Roger, Rox, and Shiki. His goal also doesn't seem to be evil, so it's possible he had the potential to take out other Emperors but chose not to. I wouldn't even be surprised if WHitebeard was superior to Roger but liked him too much to really hurt or kill him.

 

[Nie Li]

dunno, I keep thinking about his ability to poison for some reason.

Yeah but Queen is Kaido's diplodocus, I'm guessing now you meant Magellan.

Prime Whitebeard I think would be unmatched by anyone except for maybe Garp, Sengoku, Roger, Rox, and Shiki. His goal also doesn't seem to be evil, so it's possible he had the potential to take out other Emperors but chose not to. I wouldn't even be surprised if WHitebeard was superior to Roger but liked him too much to really hurt or kill him.

I've always considered Roger and Whitebeard equals, but any of the two may turn out to have been stronger. We know just too little about all those events. Whitebeard may have simply defected from Xebec at God Valley.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2020 ---

I remember back around 2012 there were people who had Marco higher than Big Mom...

On that note, how well do you think Marco will do against BM, could he push her to high diff, stalemate.....

.......win ?

I think BM would kill Marco mid to high diff and that's only if I take Marco's hype seriously.

We don't know the limits of Marco's regenerative powers but it's possible that Prometheus can just burn him faster than he heals.

Or, simplier than that: BM steals his soul.

 

[M3J]

Yeah but Queen is Kaido's diplodocus, I'm guessing now you meant Magellan.


I've always considered Roger and Whitebeard equals, but any of the two may turn out to have been stronger. We know just too little about all those events. Whitebeard may have simply defected from Xebec at God Valley.

No, I meant Queen. Just didn't/don't remember his abilities.

Agreed about knowing too little, but we do know that WHitebeard and Roger had a cordial relationship, cordial enough that Roger had no problem telling Whitebeard how to get to Raftel and told him information. I do hope we get more on this though, and especially on Whitebeard's prime. Signs do point to prime Whitebeard being able to take out any of the Emperor except for maybe Shanks, though, like how his crew thought Whitebeard's health was extremely bad just because he couldn't dodge Squardo's attack.

 

[Fox666]

Yeah, but it is worth noting that by all appearances jozu was handling himself well until WB was attacked and got distracted.

I don't really see why assume Jozu and Aokiji were sticking to the same opponent when nobody was. Kizaru also happened to get Marco distracted, despite the two fighting other enemies in-between.

I wouldn't make assumptions based on an off-paneled fight either. It was probably a very short period, Jozu hit Aokiji, the next chapter Aokiji got his revenge, and the chapter after that he froze him whole.

 

[McNuss]

To be honest, I think the ideas of the past "primers" to be significantly stronger than current primers is completely wrong.

It's just "ahh the good old days" nostalgia talk.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2020, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2020 ---

Like, we have to ask ourselves, what does Prime even mean?

When was Roger's prime?

When he became Pirate King? But he was already mortally ill at that time.

When he defeated Xebec together with Garp? They defeated him together and the very nature of this thread points out how small the differences at the top are. The idea that Xebec is stronger than Prime Roger and Prime Garp combined is absolutely ridiculous. Nature-defying.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2020 ---

For example, can anyone provide actual arguments why Prime Garp should be above Akainu (who during Marineford arc, was close to his prime), and who is said to be capable of finding One Piece in a year if he were the protagonist?

It's just that Garp, Roger and Whitebeard are community favorites, whereas Akainu is loathed and most other Admirals create more indifferent feelings.

Why is Prime Big Mom never brought up? Current Big Mom is said to be more mentally deranged than ever, a clear indication that she is past her prime, but nonetheless she has has never been properly injured as of yet...

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2020 ---

You also have to consider that 2/4 of Roger becoming Pirate King was sheer luck. He was gifted the Wano and Zou Poneglyphs with the permission of these countries leaders.

The Fishman Poneglyph wasn't hidden, so it was never a challenge.

Roger's only feat for becoming Pirate King is stealing Big Mom's. He never beat her though.

Meeting Oden was luck, too.

Luffy saved Robin's life to make her consider joining, while Roger just had a friendly sparring match with his drinking buddy.

Oden said that Whitebeard is a great man but Roger has no comparison. Both Roger and Whitebeard tied their fight, so Oden wasn't referring to Roger's strenght.

I am placing a bet here: The way they are and the way they fight, I think Shanks has Roger's moveset and his trademark move will be Aversion to Divinity. Given that Blackbeard appears to be the successor of Xebec and that Shanks, the successor of Roger, and Blackbeard are implied to have a confrontation soon, I postulate
Prime Roger ≈ Current Shanks.

 

[fcToho]

IF the admirals were the same as Yonko, as we seen with BM and Kaido on how they handled YC level pirates (G4 Luffy and Queen), then why didnt the admirals one shotted the WB YCs?

But why didn't WB oneshot the admirals, then? Sick or not, he attacked Akainu with full killing intent, adrenaline and bloodlust and got some clean hits in with his DF on top of his haki.

Because for me it's displayed as Yonkou > Admiral > YC
And to take some inspiration from HxH: A lower tier can beat a higher tier if both have a good/bad day. So good day Marco could beat bad day Aokiji for example and good day Akainu could beat bad day Whitebeard. Latter example actually represents Marineford imo.

For me it's just this: If you replace the 3 admirals at Marineford with Kaido, Big Mom and Shanks I think they would tear through the Whitebeard Alliance.

edit: To add to this, I think the gap between Yonkou and Admiral is smaller than between Admiral and YC. Nevertheless I think there is still a gap.

 

[Ramen]

I remember back around 2012 there were people who had Marco higher than Big Mom...

On that note, how well do you think Marco will do against BM, could he push her to high diff, stalemate.....

.......win ?

Lol he wouldn't stand a chance. Even Queen was getting thrown around.

 

[McNuss]

Lol he wouldn't stand a chance. Even Queen was getting thrown around.

The Soul Drain does not work on a fearless one and Marco can't be injured.

He really is a cheat. The thing that really prevents Marco from being the strongest character in the series is that he is not good at dealing damage at all

He essentially has chicken feet as his main source of attacks and failed to really injure anyone so far.

 

[Ramen]

The Soul Drain does not work on a fearless one and Marco can't be injured.

He really is a cheat. The thing that really prevents Marco from being the strongest character in the series is that he is not good at dealing damage at all

He essentially has chicken feet as his main source of attacks and failed to really injure anyone so far.

He's easily the best support.