Discussion Emperors vs Admirals vs Commanders

[Fox666]

To be honest, I think the ideas of the past "primers" to be significantly stronger than current primers is completely wrong.

It's just "ahh the good old days" nostalgia talk.

As the author explained, in One Piece world old people don't loose their strength.

However, Whitebeard was sick. I don't think his destructive power decreased, but his reflexes did, as stated by Marco when he was stabbed by Squardo.

Compare it to when he managed to avoid Ace murder attempts during his sleep. I suppose for the same reason he failed to dodge Akainu's attack that burned half of his face.

He also had a heart attack during his first round against Akainu.

 

[albertwv]

But why didn't WB oneshot the admirals, then? Sick or not, he attacked Akainu with full killing intent, adrenaline and bloodlust and got some clean hits in with his DF on top of his haki.

Akainu was healthy enough after taking those to still absolutely dominate the likes of Jinbei and the whole WB crew.

Marco and Jozu's respective durabilities are really special cases. Especially Marco, since he just instantly heals every hit he takes, one cannot accumulate damage on him through normal means, and unlike logia, being attacked with haki doesn't counter his DF.


Of course the Marines had an advantage on Marineford, there's no denying that, but would the results really differ extremely? Let's think about it.

I'll start by ignoring the "healthy" WB premise, simply because "healthy WB" is not a thing. He aged poorly and he was constantly ill. We have zero information on how strong he was when he was young, but we know that he was still 100% a Yonko when he was sick, so it's fair to consider this form of him here. Otherwise I could also say "well, Garp was old" and go by the hype of his prime power.

Why do you want to take the Warlords away but still leave the allied pirate crews that are not part of WB crew (there were multiple pirate captains helping him on Marineford)? If we take away the external help, then there would also be many less pirates. Not only that but, as others pointed out, Warlords ended up being more of a help to WB than they were to the marines (1 switched sides, 2 attacked both sides, 2 didn't care, 1 was useless, so pretty much only Kuma was really an asset for the Marines) so taking them away is more of a nerf for the pirates side.

Other great fighters like Crocodile, Ivankov, Inazuma and Oars Jr. were not part of WB's crew so they would also not be there if this was just "plain fighting" between WBs crew and the marines. Lucky for Whitebeard, Squardo would also not be there. If Squardo was there, he would still betray Whitebeard in this new setting, because Akainu would still manipulate him behind the scenes.

The only big advantage from this new setting is not that Ace's free, but the change of location. In this new location, Sengoku can't lay traps so he can't shine as much as the strategist that he is, but of course he would still have at least a plan and all of the Pacifistas that they used to secretly surround the pirates would also be brought here together with the human marine troops.

What would really, really change in this setting?
This would still be decided by the top tiers in the end. Whitebeard can obliterate most if not all of the marine fodders just like Akainu can do the same for most of WB's crew.

WB, Marco, Jozu and Vista (4 people) are the only WB pirates that are worth mentioning in the matchup, and Sengoku, Garp, Akainu, Aokiji and Kizaru (5 people) are the only marines worth mentioning. I ignore Tsuru because we don't know anything about her actual battle potential. Sure, she is considered very strong and she started as the teammate of Garp and Sengoku, but for all we know she could be their Sakura. Ace is strong and had huge potential, sure, but he was oneshottable by Akainu so I don't even take him into account here. WB, however, cannot oneshot any of the marines I mentioned.

Did I forget anyone? Let's compare these guys.

- In the original MF fight, Garp let himself be punched out of the way by a mere G2 Luffy and was severely enraged by his fellow marine Akainu because he executed Ace. Shall we ignore Garp's dubvious loyalties and morals to make this "plain fighting" more fair? Then I can say for sure that at least Garp > Jozu, and it's also very likely that Garp > Marco.

Even if one cannot prove that Garp can "break" Jozu since we haven't seen the limits of Jozu's durability, Garp should be strong enough to punch him out of the island. Not in one shot, since Jozu also showed to be plenty strong and resilient, but Garp is enough to have him out of the game.

- Let's say that Kizaru is enough to either beat Marco or at least keep him in an eternal stalemate (if there's not "distraction" plotline), so let's say that they can both distract each other long enough from the main fight.

- Sengoku and Vista and pretty much wildcards here. Is Sengoku's physical strength comparable to Garp's since he was able of holding him down without using his fruit? One thing that's true is that Sengoku's buddah form took on all of the BB pirates together at the end of Marineford, so I'll say that he can take on Vista. We don't know the exact limits or abilities of any of the two characters, so who would you say that would win between the two? None of the two can oneshot the other, and none have shown what it takes to hurt them, so I will just say it's another stalemate (for lack of feats).

- WB ragdolled Akainu on Marineford, yes, but Akainu did not go down and as I mentioned earlier he still was healthy enough after all of that to still be a monster that the whole WB crew, Vista and Jozu included, considered they had no chance of beating him in that state. And while Akainu took those heavy hits from WB, WB got a hole in his stomach and lost half of his face, so it was not one-sided at all. If we take away Squardo's treason and plot, I'll take away WB's bloodlust from seeing Ace die before his eyes. I'll consider that WB engages Akainu while Ace is busy fighting elsewhere. WB would be a bit healthier but he would be less of a monster against Akainu.

And there is still one toptier, Aokiji in the examples I went for, that is left unengaged by any proper WB subordinate. By Jozu? Sure, then who blocks Garp? Ace didn't live enough to be on Garp's level and, wihle Marco may heal from any damage Garp deals on him, Garp can just swat him away while he goes engage WB.

The war would end up with, at least, a 2 vs 1, if not a 3 vs 1, top tiers vs Whitebeard, and while the commanders were strong enough to delay some of the admirals, they were constantly on inferiority and their defeat was a matter of time.

WB would lose is the likely result, and this is without considering that probably Akainu is able to kill him in a 1vs1. I consider that a fight between them can go either way, similar to Akainu vs Aokiji, but in this context, it wouldn't result in a 1vs1, so WB is screwed.

Healthy WB should be taken into account and YES we do have information on how strong Prime WB was during Roger's Era. He was equaled to Roger who was probably equaled to Garp. So Roger's Era: Roger=WB=Garp. Now this was 20+ years ago. WB and Garp became old and lost some of their strenght. Yet, WB was still thought to be the Strongest. The Marines didnt know WB was ill.

I meant the original WB Pirates (Marco, Ace, Jozu, Thatch, Vista) vs Marines. NO Warlords and NO pirate allies (ID prisoners or NW Pirates). Same amount of Pirates and Marines and a healthy WB.

Akainu would lose a 1v1.

Jozu a YC was able to make Aokiji bleed. Marco was able to tank 2 lazer beams (1 was healed by his Df and the other one wasnt because he had Seastone cuffs) from Kizaru.
Nobody was able to stop Akainu besides WB but Marco and Vista held him back for a second.

Doflamingo was scared shitless to face Kaido but he didnt mind disobeying Aokiji. Yes, ultimately he backd down from fighting Aokiji but he still tried attacking Smoker. Kaido wouldve knocked down Doflamingo in one or two hits. Aokiji wasnt able to.

The admirals may delay the Yonko but ultimately lose. They may cause heavy damage but will still lose.

 

[Nie Li]

Healthy WB should be taken into account and YES we do have information on how strong Prime WB was during Roger's Era. He was equaled to Roger who was probably equaled to Garp. So Roger's Era: Roger=WB=Garp. Now this was 20+ years ago. WB and Garp became old and lost some of their strenght. Yet, WB was still thought to be the Strongest. The Marines didnt know WB was ill.

Why should I take into account someone's strength from 20 years ago to debate the current status quo? There's no reason to do so and we should not.

I meant the original WB Pirates (Marco, Ace, Jozu, Thatch, Vista) vs Marines. NO Warlords and NO pirate allies (ID prisoners or NW Pirates). Same amount of Pirates and Marines and a healthy WB.

That means quite a lot less pirates, but okay.

Akainu would lose a 1v1.

Usually this kind of statement needs to be accompanied by either proof or a logical reasoning.

Jozu a YC was able to make Aokiji bleed. Marco was able to tank 2 lazer beams (1 was healed by his Df and the other one wasnt because he had Seastone cuffs) from Kizaru.

Both of the laser beams were healed. Once he transformed again because he had his cuffs removed, all of his damages were healed and he joined the fray again.

Jozu has haki and overpowered durability, there's nothing wrong with him making someone bleed. Kinemon has made Kaido bleed and he's clearly not on his level, or are you implying otherwise?

Nobody was able to stop Akainu besides WB but Marco and Vista held him back for a second.

Yes, for a second, literally for a single panel in the manga.

Doflamingo was scared shitless to face Kaido but he didnt mind disobeying Aokiji. Yes, ultimately he backd down from fighting Aokiji but he still tried attacking Smoker. Kaido wouldve knocked down Doflamingo in one or two hits. Aokiji wasnt able to.

Aokiji didn't try to, so this kind of statement is pointless. For him to "not be able" of doing something he should first try to do it, and he didn't.

We know that top tier commanders can clash both with Yonko and with Admirals and survive said clashes even if not win, and Doflamingo is pretty much top tier commander level (not on Katakuri level, but pretty strong regardless), so he wasn't scared shitless of a single man (Aokiji) who had already showed him that he was not looking to kill him there (because Aokiji himself would have risked making an enemy out of Kaido if he had been the one to kill Doflamingo).

Of course, Kaido, a yonko, with his full crew of monsters as his henchmen and nothing holding him back from killing Doflamingo if he became his enemy, scared Doflamingo more than Aokiji.

The admirals may delay the Yonko but ultimately lose. They may cause heavy damage but will still lose.

This is your opinion and it's nice of you to have it but it's not supported by the rest of your post.

WB may have defeated Akainu, but Akainu also showed that he had the ability and strength to solo WB. They were both very close in that exchange. WB was sick? Yes, but that's how he was a Yonko; being sick. And in this case, he was also blinded by rage and more aggressive than usual, and yet he didn't down Akainu despite his will of taking him down with him.

 

[Fox666]

Doflamingo was scared shitless to face Kaido but he didnt mind disobeying Aokiji. Yes, ultimately he backd down from fighting Aokiji but he still tried attacking Smoker. Kaido wouldve knocked down Doflamingo in one or two hits. Aokiji wasnt able to.

Doflamingo was frightened of fighting Kaido, while he laughed at Aokiji's face.

Doflamingo was never in serious danger against Aokiji. The later tried to freeze Doflamingo, but failed because of their respective abilities. Also Doflamingo can fly, and easily escape the battlefield. That wouldn't be possible against Kaido, who can also fly.

Doflamingo may have bluffed against Aokiji, since he almost always maintain keep his composure. It was Law who managed to screw him over.

Kaido is still the "strongest creature", and on theory stronger than anyone including Aokiji. Doflamingo was also under Kaido's protection, sort of.

Kaido and Aokiji have very different personalities. Kaido is violent, while Aokiji was politely asking Doflamingo to spare Smoker's life.

Doflamingo has blackmailed the Tenryuubito, and may have thought he could use it to manipulate a former Admiral to some extend.

 

[M3J]

Akainu would lose a 1v1.

Considering that no matter what Whitebeard did, Akainu would not stay down, I'd say you're wrong here. If an Emperor was clearly superior to an admiral, then Akainu wouldn't have had the chance to take out Ace or try to go after Luffy. Your insistence that Yonkou > admirals make no sense.

 

[albertwv]

Why should I take into account someone's strength from 20 years ago to debate the current status quo? There's no reason to do so and we should not.


That means quite a lot less pirates, but okay.


Usually this kind of statement needs to be accompanied by either proof or a logical reasoning.


Both of the laser beams were healed. Once he transformed again because he had his cuffs removed, all of his damages were healed and he joined the fray again.

Jozu has haki and overpowered durability, there's nothing wrong with him making someone bleed. Kinemon has made Kaido bleed and he's clearly not on his level, or are you implying otherwise?


Yes, for a second, literally for a single panel in the manga.


Aokiji didn't try to, so this kind of statement is pointless. For him to "not be able" of doing something he should first try to do it, and he didn't.

We know that top tier commanders can clash both with Yonko and with Admirals and survive said clashes even if not win, and Doflamingo is pretty much top tier commander level (not on Katakuri level, but pretty strong regardless), so he wasn't scared shitless of a single man (Aokiji) who had already showed him that he was not looking to kill him there (because Aokiji himself would have risked making an enemy out of Kaido if he had been the one to kill Doflamingo).

Of course, Kaido, a yonko, with his full crew of monsters as his henchmen and nothing holding him back from killing Doflamingo if he became his enemy, scared Doflamingo more than Aokiji.


This is your opinion and it's nice of you to have it but it's not supported by the rest of your post.

WB may have defeated Akainu, but Akainu also showed that he had the ability and strength to solo WB. They were both very close in that exchange. WB was sick? Yes, but that's how he was a Yonko; being sick. And in this case, he was also blinded by rage and more aggressive than usual, and yet he didn't down Akainu despite his will of taking him down with him.

I am pointing out that you said we had zero information on Prime WB but I showed you otherwise. I am not saying bring in Prime WB into MF War or vs Admirals Trio. I am pointing out that Prime WB was on par with Roger but due to age and sickness he became weaker than he used to be. But I stand by my claim that if Old WB was not sick, he wouldnt taken down Akainu easier, with some difficulty but not as much as you think. Especially thinking that WB= Akainu. That is nonsense.

Kaido, alone is more scarier than Aokiji, that is what frighten Doflamingo. Aokiji was obviously trying in his small skirmish, his friend Smoker was about to be killed and you think Aokiji didnt put in effort?! Doflamingo defied Aokiji for that moment but it is higly unlikely that he would've defied Kaido.

Akainu showed no ability to solo WB. Akainu did melt WB's face but that would most likely be anyone's face even maybe Roger's. It is quite hard to defend agaisnt MAGMA. As soon as WB got sick and got to his knees that was when Akainu got lucky and struck him. WB took Akainu down in 2-3 blows. Akainu lost that fight. But he was able to recover and keep chasing Luffy but if WB was there or if it was 1v1 and Akainu came back up to face WB, Akainu wouldve gotten crushed again and again.

IF Admirals > Yonko, then why didnt the Admirals take down Shanks when Shanks showed up to MF. That wouldve been easy for them right? hey another prey just landed in front of them perfect. Akainu didnt even try to attack Shanks again after Shanks blocked his attack.

Besides Old and Sick WB vs the Admirals at MF, what other proof do you guys have that Admirals >/= Yonko?? Since my posts make no sense.

 

[Nie Li]

I am pointing out that you said we had zero information on Prime WB but I showed you otherwise. I am not saying bring in Prime WB into MF War or vs Admirals Trio. I am pointing out that Prime WB was on par with Roger but due to age and sickness he became weaker than he used to be. But I stand by my claim that if Old WB was not sick, he wouldnt taken down Akainu easier, with some difficulty but not as much as you think. Especially thinking that WB= Akainu. That is nonsense.

Alright, there are some clues of what his strength used to be, but why is it relevant? Being old and sick was not a temporary state; Old WB was constantly sick, so that was his strength as a Yonko, nothing less and nothing more: no sense talking about what ifs in this specific discussion.

Kaido, alone is more scarier than Aokiji, that is what frighten Doflamingo. Aokiji was obviously trying in his small skirmish, his friend Smoker was about to be killed and you think Aokiji didnt put in effort?! Doflamingo defied Aokiji for that moment but it is higly unlikely that he would've defied Kaido.

What "effort"? Aokiji threatened Doflamingo but it was pretty much an empty thread. He would have killed Doflamingo if he was able to, but he wasn't, not because he wasn't strong enough, but because he would have made an enemy out of Kaido. Saving Smoker is really not worth that, and what little effort he put was enough to make Doflamingo go away in the end.

I already addressed why Doflamingo would have acted differently against Kaido on my previous post.

Akainu showed no ability to solo WB. Akainu did melt WB's face but that would most likely be anyone's face even maybe Roger's. It is quite hard to defend agaisnt MAGMA. As soon as WB got sick and got to his knees that was when Akainu got lucky and struck him. WB took Akainu down in 2-3 blows. Akainu lost that fight. But he was able to recover and keep chasing Luffy but if WB was there or if it was 1v1 and Akainu came back up to face WB, Akainu wouldve gotten crushed again and again.

Akainu never got knocked out, nor killed, and killing him was WB's intention, not "winning the fight", so WB failed at what he was trying to do, and while he was trying to do so he got damaged pretty badly (twice) by Akainu.

If that fight was 1v1, WB would not have gotten bloodlusted against Akainu from seeing him murder Ace and he would have fought differently against him, and him being sick is, again, pointless in this discussion: That was WB's natural state. This is like saying "Yeah, if Akainu hadn't eaten his DF he would be much weaker and he would not have destroyed half of WB's face": that's true, but that's from the distant past of the character and has nothing to do with the relevant status quo of the characters.

Also, yes, magma is pretty destructive, but don't use that as an excuse. If Akainu was weaker any real top tier like the Yonkous would be able of negating his power through stronger haki, but WB didn't have stronger haki than Akainu. His haki wasn't even strong enough to kill Akainu despite trying very hard to do it and getting a couple of finishers in.

IF Admirals > Yonko, then why didnt the Admirals take down Shanks when Shanks showed up to MF. That wouldve been easy for them right? hey another prey just landed in front of them perfect. Akainu didnt even try to attack Shanks again after Shanks blocked his attack.

This has been addressed and answered like three times already in this very thread.

It would not have been easy for them. They could have done it. Akainu was badly hurt but still on his feet, and Kizaru and Aokiji were still pretty much fresh. Even if we go by your theory of Yonko > Admirals, 2 vs 1 they could have killed Shanks and there were already Sengoku, Garp and plenty viceadmirals around to handle his crew's commanders.

That reminds me that you somehow keep forgetting that Kizaru and Aokiji didn't even really need to engage WB for WB to go down (yes, they exchanged a couple of attacks at the start but they didn't wound WB and neither did WB damage them with his attacks and that remained as a small skirmish. They never really ganged up on him and make it 2 Admirals vs 1 Yonko, and 2 of the admirals ended up perfectly fresh as a result despite a Yonko going down.

The question is not if they could take down Shanks at MF, it's at what cost. Having another admiral come out half dead from there? Beckman is supposedly even stronger than Marco and close to a Yonko as well, and Marco himself was still around and good to go. The marines took heavy loses against Whitebeard, no one's saying the battle was easy on their side, and the morale was low after the ending. Add to that the losses, not only of fodder but also of VA that would have piled after the battle.

Who would have defended places like Mariejoa if their top forces got dwindled down and Kaido or BM just decided to take advantage of that?

Besides Old and Sick WB vs the Admirals at MF, what other proof do you guys have that Admirals >/= Yonko?? Since my posts make no sense.

"Old and Sick" is still nothing more than an irrelevant excuse. "Old and Sick WB" was a Yonko, period. We're discussing if a Yonko is stronger or weaker than them. How strong the man was 20 years ago isn't important because he hadn't stopped being a Yonko.

WB got as much damage in and he got dealt back in a 1v1 with Akainu, despite his bloodlusted state. That is enough for Admirals = Yonko.

 

[albertwv]

Alright, there are some clues of what his strength used to be, but why is it relevant? Being old and sick was not a temporary state; Old WB was constantly sick, so that was his strength as a Yonko, nothing less and nothing more: no sense talking about what ifs in this specific discussion.


What "effort"? Aokiji threatened Doflamingo but it was pretty much an empty thread. He would have killed Doflamingo if he was able to, but he wasn't, not because he wasn't strong enough, but because he would have made an enemy out of Kaido. Saving Smoker is really not worth that, and what little effort he put was enough to make Doflamingo go away in the end.

I already addressed why Doflamingo would have acted differently against Kaido on my previous post.


Akainu never got knocked out, nor killed, and killing him was WB's intention, not "winning the fight", so WB failed at what he was trying to do, and while he was trying to do so he got damaged pretty badly (twice) by Akainu.

If that fight was 1v1, WB would not have gotten bloodlusted against Akainu from seeing him murder Ace and he would have fought differently against him, and him being sick is, again, pointless in this discussion: That was WB's natural state. This is like saying "Yeah, if Akainu hadn't eaten his DF he would be much weaker and he would not have destroyed half of WB's face": that's true, but that's from the distant past of the character and has nothing to do with the relevant status quo of the characters.

Also, yes, magma is pretty destructive, but don't use that as an excuse. If Akainu was weaker any real top tier like the Yonkous would be able of negating his power through stronger haki, but WB didn't have stronger haki than Akainu. His haki wasn't even strong enough to kill Akainu despite trying very hard to do it and getting a couple of finishers in.


This has been addressed and answered like three times already in this very thread.

It would not have been easy for them. They could have done it. Akainu was badly hurt but still on his feet, and Kizaru and Aokiji were still pretty much fresh. Even if we go by your theory of Yonko > Admirals, 2 vs 1 they could have killed Shanks and there were already Sengoku, Garp and plenty viceadmirals around to handle his crew's commanders.

That reminds me that you somehow keep forgetting that Kizaru and Aokiji didn't even really need to engage WB for WB to go down (yes, they exchanged a couple of attacks at the start but they didn't wound WB and neither did WB damage them with his attacks and that remained as a small skirmish. They never really ganged up on him and make it 2 Admirals vs 1 Yonko, and 2 of the admirals ended up perfectly fresh as a result despite a Yonko going down.

The question is not if they could take down Shanks at MF, it's at what cost. Having another admiral come out half dead from there? Beckman is supposedly even stronger than Marco and close to a Yonko as well, and Marco himself was still around and good to go. The marines took heavy loses against Whitebeard, no one's saying the battle was easy on their side, and the morale was low after the ending. Add to that the losses, not only of fodder but also of VA that would have piled after the battle.

Who would have defended places like Mariejoa if their top forces got dwindled down and Kaido or BM just decided to take advantage of that?


"Old and Sick" is still nothing more than an irrelevant excuse. "Old and Sick WB" was a Yonko, period. We're discussing if a Yonko is stronger or weaker than them. How strong the man was 20 years ago isn't important because he hadn't stopped being a Yonko.

WB got as much damage in and he got dealt back in a 1v1 with Akainu, despite his bloodlusted state. That is enough for Admirals = Yonko.

WB took down Akainu, he fell down into the earth crack. WB won that fight. It's like Doffy vs Sanji.. Doffy dominated Sanji but Sanji was saved by Law. Sanji was fine afterwards, does that mean he didnt lose the fight vs Doffy?
Or Law vs Smoker, Law removes Smoker's heart and Smoker faints.. later on we see Smoker in Tashigi's body apparently in good condition. Does that mean Smoker didnt lose the fight?
Or Queen vs Big Mom...Queen wakes up a bit later. Was that fight a tie?

You see the pattern? Akainu lost that fight against WB. Yes, Akainu got up afterwards and still chased after Luffy but he took a Lost agaisnt WB. I dont see any more proof of Admirals > Yonko. Show me proof outside of MF war that Admirals > Yonko

 

[Fox666]

WB took down Akainu, he fell down into the earth crack. WB won that fight. It's like Doffy vs Sanji.. Doffy dominated Sanji but Sanji was saved by Law. Sanji was fine afterwards, does that mean he didnt lose the fight vs Doffy?
Or Law vs Smoker, Law removes Smoker's heart and Smoker faints.. later on we see Smoker in Tashigi's body apparently in good condition. Does that mean Smoker didnt lose the fight?
Or Queen vs Big Mom...Queen wakes up a bit later. Was that fight a tie?

You see the pattern? Akainu lost that fight against WB. Yes, Akainu got up afterwards and still chased after Luffy but he took a Lost agaisnt WB. I dont see any more proof of Admirals > Yonko. Show me proof outside of MF war that Admirals > Yonko

Was Akainu knocked out? I thought he was digging a tunnel

 

[albertwv]

Was Akainu knocked out? I thought he was digging a tunnel

Is that what you were thinking when you saw him go down the ground? "Oh he's fine he'll probably dig a tunnel and resurface"
Was Queen knocked out? I thought he was taking a nap.

 

[Nie Li]

WB took down Akainu, he fell down into the earth crack. WB won that fight. It's like Doffy vs Sanji.. Doffy dominated Sanji but Sanji was saved by Law. Sanji was fine afterwards, does that mean he didnt lose the fight vs Doffy?
Or Law vs Smoker, Law removes Smoker's heart and Smoker faints.. later on we see Smoker in Tashigi's body apparently in good condition. Does that mean Smoker didnt lose the fight?
Or Queen vs Big Mom...Queen wakes up a bit later. Was that fight a tie?

You see the pattern? Akainu lost that fight against WB. Yes, Akainu got up afterwards and still chased after Luffy but he took a Lost agaisnt WB. I dont see any more proof of Admirals > Yonko. Show me proof outside of MF war that Admirals > Yonko

Oh, yes, in all of those examples, Doflamingo, Law and Big Mom received grievous injuries from an opponent that they failed to knock out, just like Whitebeard. What a great pattern.

And, once again: He failed at knocking out an opponent he was trying to absolutely destroy and murder with all his might. Not just some random fight in which he didn't care much about the result other than winning.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 4, 2020, Original Post Date: Nov 4, 2020 ---

I'll add another thing.

You diminished the fact that Akainu destroyed half of WB's face by saying "well that's because his DF is strong, anyone would lose half their face". I can diminish in exactly the same way the merit of WB making Akainu fall down a crack "well that crack was created by the power of his DF, anyone that can't fly would fall down there".

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 4, 2020 ---

That actually brings up another point about durability.

The point that "anyone would lose half of their face from magma" is similarly valid to "anyone would have their body destroyed, like that giant VA's face, by having a big earthquake summoned directly into their body, especially if it's a large-scale one, summoned by an enraged OP individual seeking to kill you and accompanied by a big-ass haki-imbued punch to the body", yet Akainu got up from that. He has the durability to tank the rage of the man who could destroy the world. Of course, not flawlessly, but his CoA should be similar to WB's to allow for that. On the other hand, his CoO was superior to YC's Marco and Vista, since he could dodge his attacks in a similar fashion to Katakuri.

And I have just noticed something that I had unwillingly ignored.

I dont see any more proof of Admirals > Yonko. Show me proof outside of MF war that Admirals > Yonko

Why are you asking for proof of that? What we have told you on this thread is that Admirals = Yonko, not Admirals > Yonko.

 

[albertwv]

Oh, yes, in all of those examples, Doflamingo, Law and Big Mom received grievous injuries from an opponent that they failed to knock out, just like Whitebeard. What a great pattern.

And, once again: He failed at knocking out an opponent he was trying to absolutely destroy and murder with all his might. Not just some random fight in which he didn't care much about the result other than winning.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 4, 2020, Original Post Date: Nov 4, 2020 ---

I'll add another thing.

You diminished the fact that Akainu destroyed half of WB's face by saying "well that's because his DF is strong, anyone would lose half their face". I can diminish in exactly the same way the merit of WB making Akainu fall down a crack "well that crack was created by the power of his DF, anyone that can't fly would fall down there".

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 4, 2020 ---

That actually brings up another point about durability.

The point that "anyone would lose half of their face from magma" is similarly valid to "anyone would have their body destroyed, like that giant VA's face, by having a big earthquake summoned directly into their body, especially if it's a large-scale one, summoned by an enraged OP individual seeking to kill you and accompanied by a big-ass haki-imbued punch to the body", yet Akainu got up from that. He has the durability to tank the rage of the man who could destroy the world. Of course, not flawlessly, but his CoA should be similar to WB's to allow for that. On the other hand, his CoO was superior to YC's Marco and Vista, since he could dodge his attacks in a similar fashion to Katakuri.

And I have just noticed something that I had unwillingly ignored.


Why are you asking for proof of that? What we have told you on this thread is that Admirals = Yonko, not Admirals > Yonko.

WB didnt fail to knock out Akainu. If you havent noticed in OP, characters dont kill each other, even though they claim they want to or are trying to. Once they defeat them, the fight ends and that's it. WB took down Akainu and by OP definition won the fight. You keep mentioning WB's Rage but fail to recognize Old and Sick WB.

Your retort on Akainu's magma vs WB's earthquake crack is pointless because you mention it yourself, "anyone that can't fly would fall down there," so that means there are people who can survive WB's earthquake crack, but is there someone out there whose face can survive a straight Magma punch? The answer is NO. Not even Roger's face can come unscathed. Roger himself could survive just like WB, but he will take damage. But it's not because it was Akainu who potentially damage his face but rather because it is MAGMA itself. If Roger or WB dunked their head in Volcano Magma they would most likely lose their head, duh. So, when Akainu damaged WB's face, it wasn't really Akainu's doing but rather his DF's dangerous natural properties. Now before you use the same argument regarding WB's earthquake punch, remember, BB survived a full head on Quake punch too, but do you think BB's face would survive Akainu's magma punch?

I got side tracked there.

The Admirals have great durability and COA and COO but regarding durability, 2 of the Yonko have been singled out more than any other character in the series. We never heard about how hard Akainu's skin is.

Let me correct myself, what proof is there to say Admirals = Emperors? Outside of MF War, is there any proof?

 

[Nie Li]

WB didnt fail to knock out Akainu. If you havent noticed in OP, characters dont kill each other, even though they claim they want to or are trying to. Once they defeat them, the fight ends and that's it. WB took down Akainu and by OP definition won the fight. You keep mentioning WB's Rage but fail to recognize Old and Sick WB.

That argument would work under different conditions. Different conditions = if Akainu hadn't just killed Ace right in front of WB, causing WB to really desire to do the same to Akainu.

I recognize that WB was old and sick, but I don't think it's important. If it was important: Being old and sick he was a Yonko. That's all there's to consider then to talk about the strength of a Yonko, not his past prime.

Your retort on Akainu's magma vs WB's earthquake crack is pointless because you mention it yourself, "anyone that can't fly would fall down there," so that means there are people who can survive WB's earthquake crack, but is there someone out there whose face can survive a straight Magma punch? The answer is NO. Not even Roger's face can come unscathed. Roger himself could survive just like WB, but he will take damage. But it's not because it was Akainu who potentially damage his face but rather because it is MAGMA itself. If Roger or WB dunked their head in Volcano Magma they would most likely lose their head, duh. So, when Akainu damaged WB's face, it wasn't really Akainu's doing but rather his DF's dangerous natural properties. Now before you use the same argument regarding WB's earthquake punch, remember, BB survived a full head on Quake punch too, but do you think BB's face would survive Akainu's magma punch?

No, but my argument is still valid because I think Roger too would fall if an earthquake opened beneath him. If you claim that Akainu's merit is all to his fruit, then so is the merit of WB's "victory".

The thing is, if Akainu's fruit was on the hands of a weaker person, it wouldn't matter if it was magma or the Saitama-Saitama no mi, WB would have tanked the damage through haki, but he didn't. The fruits are part of the characters: WB was so dangerous because of his fruit (on top of his haki and skills). He would not have been the man with the power to destroy the world without the gura gura, and the gura gura was part of the punches Akainu tanked, and it was the only reason the Earth cracked under Akainu, so diminishing Akainu's feats would also greatly diminish most of what WB did if we just go and say "It was the fruit".

I got side tracked there.

The Admirals have great durability and COA and COO but regarding durability, 2 of the Yonko have been singled out more than any other character in the series. We never heard about how hard Akainu's skin is.

Neither have we heard about how hard Shanks' skin is. In the past he lost an arm to a creature that was weaker than Luffy in literally chapter 1 of the series, back when Krieg was still a challenge for him.

Let me correct myself, what proof is there to say Admirals = Emperors? Outside of MF War, is there any proof?

I'm making more than one point for that throughout this conversation, yes.

Outside of MF, the admirals haven't done close to anything, so outside of MF you cannot prove that Admirals =/>/< Yonko, except for the hype. The hype of "Akainu as a pirate would become PK in a year" actually suggests that Admirals > Yonko, though I do not believe that.

 

[M3J]

Manga: Whitebeard vs. Akainu had no decisive winner, especially since Akainu was still fighting. Even against Aokiji Whitebeard couldn't take him down.

albert logic: THAT MEANS YONKOU >>> ADMIRALS EVEN THOUGH YONKOU COULDN'T BEAT ADMIRALS!!!1

I feel like it's a waste of time debating.

 

[LadyVados]

I think the Yonko are currently being overestimated because of the recency effect.

We saw the Yonkos recently and their awesome feats are still fresh in our minds. We forgot all the broken stuff the Admirals and other top tiers did.

In a few years when the Yonko are defeated and we see the admirals, the general consensus will be that the admirals would stomp the Yonko.

And then a few years after that when we will see Mihawk in effect, people will be like, how did we ever think the yonko and admirals stood any chance against this guy ?

 

[McNuss]

He's easily the best support.

Doctor, Navigator, Vice Captain... Marco is like a Swiss knife.

He even has the iconic cross on him.

 

[Aki1991]

They were always equally to me. I thought it would cost too many ressoruces to take a younkou down so another could take the chance to beat the marines. That's why it is called balance. A yonkou crew alone would lose to marines for sure. But two would be hard to beat and a third yonkou would take the chance to rule the world after that imo.

 

[FetherMan]

Roger was given title of "Pirate King" for his actions, not his strength over others. That was written by Oda, too by the way. Just saying and these battles are set up to drive the story first. I mean, Luffy has a hurdle of strong adversaries to overcome with this current battle against Kaido, Big Mom and their own crews of strong and powerful pirates.

For example, Ulti wasn't a mere pushover for Luffy, the main character, who he had to take serious in battle and that's why, Oda is a good writer and will not make it easy for Luffy to reach his goal. Neither his crew for that matter and that's why, I think, all of us stay tuned into the series. No matter how powerful you think the characters are, Oda can turn the situation around from right to left and it works, too. We don't really know how Wano will play out and if, some casualties will not be on both sides.

 

[albertwv]

That argument would work under different conditions. Different conditions = if Akainu hadn't just killed Ace right in front of WB, causing WB to really desire to do the same to Akainu.

I recognize that WB was old and sick, but I don't think it's important. If it was important: Being old and sick he was a Yonko. That's all there's to consider then to talk about the strength of a Yonko, not his past prime.


No, but my argument is still valid because I think Roger too would fall if an earthquake opened beneath him. If you claim that Akainu's merit is all to his fruit, then so is the merit of WB's "victory".

The thing is, if Akainu's fruit was on the hands of a weaker person, it wouldn't matter if it was magma or the Saitama-Saitama no mi, WB would have tanked the damage through haki, but he didn't. The fruits are part of the characters: WB was so dangerous because of his fruit (on top of his haki and skills). He would not have been the man with the power to destroy the world without the gura gura, and the gura gura was part of the punches Akainu tanked, and it was the only reason the Earth cracked under Akainu, so diminishing Akainu's feats would also greatly diminish most of what WB did if we just go and say "It was the fruit".


The Admirals have great durability and COA and COO but regarding durability, 2 of the Yonko have been singled out more than any other character in the series. We never heard about how hard Akainu's skin is.

Neither have we heard about how hard Shanks' skin is. In the past he lost an arm to a creature that was weaker than Luffy in literally chapter 1 of the series, back when Krieg was still a challenge for him.


I'm making more than one point for that throughout this conversation, yes.

Outside of MF, the admirals haven't done close to anything, so outside of MF you cannot prove that Admirals =/>/< Yonko, except for the hype. The hype of "Akainu as a pirate would become PK in a year" actually suggests that Admirals > Yonko, though I do not believe that.

You're basically saying only Angry WB was able to damage Akainu this much, yet you don't take into account that WB showed sickness in the middle of the battle field which let Akainu gained the upper hand. The world didnt know WB was sick, they only knew he was Old and weaker than his Prime, but now that he got sick that was an advantage for the Marines. WB himself said to take off the medical stuff on him so they won't pity him.

Anyone with the MAGMA DF can burn off ANYONE's face if they get close enough.
Shanks losing an arm was PLOT ARMOR. Plus he wasnt Yonko back then AND I never mentioned his durability, I said 2 of the Yonko (BM and Kaido) have the greatest durability shown in the Manga.

The hype that if Akainu was the PROTAGONIST of the manga, OP would end in a year. That is with Plot Armor just like Luffy. Imagine if Luffy started out in East Blue as strong as he was right now (YC1 Level). The manga would end sooner, it wouldnt take 20+ years. That's what Oda meant. If Kaido or big Mom were the protagonists of the story then the story would be much shorter too. Yes Akainu is extremely powerful, but not as powerful as Yonko.

IF Admirals = Yonko, there was 3-5 Admiral level Marines at MF and only 1 Yonko. Let's leave Garp and Sengoku out since they really didnt participate in the war. Why was Sengoku still scared that they might lose the war? Sengoku knows WB's strength and the admirals strength. Yet he still believed there was a chance they might lose. 3 Admirals should've easily overpowered WB and finished off the rest of the WB Pirates.

IF an Admiral = Yonko, then how do you think it would go down if WB was fighting Kaido + BM (as a team). WB would've been crushed right away. Yet he wasnt taken down by any of the Admirals. He was frozen by Aokiji, survived that, he was laser beam'd by Kizaru, he survived that, and his face was melted off by Akainu, he survived that and managed to knock down Akainu.

The manga shows WB superior to Akainu, WB didnt even take another glance at Akainu after he fell down the crack. WB was done with Akainu. The Yonko hype > Admiral hype.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 4, 2020, Original Post Date: Nov 4, 2020 ---

They were always equally to me. I thought it would cost too many ressoruces to take a younkou down so another could take the chance to beat the marines. That's why it is called balance. A yonkou crew alone would lose to marines for sure. But two would be hard to beat and a third yonkou would take the chance to rule the world after that imo.

There was the 3 Great Powers, Marines, Warlords, and Yonko
But it took the Marines to call the Warlords to get assistance to defeat only 1 Yonko.
Balance would be if Marines = Warlords = 4 Yonko, but its not that way.
1 Yonko vs Marines, would be devastating on the Marines and then if the other 3 Yonko wanted to attack, the Marines would be no more.

 

[McNuss]

@alberwv The thing is, if you burn away half of someone's face that person will die. That was a pyrrhic victory for Whitebeard at best.

You also ignore the fact that half of the Shishibukai weren't even fighting on the Marines side. Of those that were, two did not even bother much.