Discussion Emperors vs Admirals vs Commanders

john ellis

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yes i think current luffy could solo any admiral. Zoro and the new admirals are probably the bottom of the tier, ben beckmann is the outlier of the 1st yonko commanders based on hype, he's protrayed to be close to shanks power levels. Also the story makes it clear that whitebeard is the closest pirate to roger, however it does make not him ever equal. if they did fight to the death i cannot see a world where whitebeard actually wins. Like i think whitebeard is potenially tier 1, it's just i can't see him beating anyone in tier 1. Comapred to zoro beating the new admirals.

What makes you think an admiral could beat luffy? the admirals are at best low yonko tier, luffy would have defeated a mid yonko tier opponent by the end of this arc.

mid yonko tier luffy>low yonko tier admirals

Also before you mention yes whitebeard was whitebeards rival, but being a rival doesn't make them equal. Kidd is luffies rival. Yet luffy is clearly superior to kidd. Rocks and roger were considered rivals. Yet at the time of there final fight it's clear rocks>roger. Also when whitebeard was in his prime, rogers epithet was pirate king. i would rate "pirate king" > 'strongest man" in terms of epithet. If anything this is more prove of whitebeard not being on rogers level.
 
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Ramen

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"Mid Yonko Tier Luffy"

:cheez

Akainu and Aokiji > Any Yonko
 

XXGenesis

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Akainu is equal to or stronger all the Yonkou.
Other OG & Yonkou sit in the same tier, Some characters just sit at the top.

Roger, Prime WB & Garp I believe are stronger than Akainu. That’s OnePiece SSClass
 

Hibari Kyoya

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Akainu is equal to or stronger all the Yonkou.
I don't see how a fresh old-Whitebeard is weaker than Akainu. You could argue Akainu equals a Yonko (and that is tenuous) but stronger than the Yonko is a bit wild.

What reasons do you have for saying that Marineford Akainu is stronger than Marineford Whitebeard? The fact he blew away half Whitebeards face after he'd already been... stabbed through the chest, otherwise injured and used a lot of Haki? Whitebeard still took him out of the fight for a large period whilst half-dead with two blows if I remember rightly? Then you must consider that Whitebeard likely did not go off the chain with his Devil Fruit because of collateral damage, whereas Akainu gave no fucks about killing other marines with his magma. The reason that the Marines fear an alliance of Yonko is because it takes the entire Marine forces to contend with a single one and their crew.

I guess it's my opinion but,

1 Yonko > 1 Admiral
1 Yonko = 2 Admirals
1 Yonko < 3 Admirals

If the above weren't true, at a minimum, Yonko would simply be killed.
 

john ellis

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I think the OG admirals are atleast relative to the yonko. I don't think they would quite win 1 vs 1 besides akainu, who i think is on par to the yonko. But i do think 2 admirals would mid dif a yonko. Rocks is the only person i could see beating 2 admirals at once. Maybe absolute prime roger could aswell.... but i just don't see it. besides imu and joyboy, who are just unknowns with no scaling possible for them. But by narrative logic i could see imu and joyboy beating all 3 admirals at once, by pure narrative speculation.
 

kkck

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I still don't see where this notion that akainu is on par with any yonko can possibly come from. Literally the only reference we have of this is the several skirmishes between him and whitebeard during marineford and the fact is that akainu got consistently rag dolled by whitebeard. Granted he wasn't straight up one shoted but WB at the war was clearly old and past his prime. He was disconnected from the machines which he needed to maintain his health. He had a heart attack in the middle of the battle. A jackass like squard injured him (though he could actually be plenty strong, we have no reference of that). The idea that akainu was yonko level back then has literally zero ground to stand on, its ludicrous. The idea that akainu is today a yonko level figther is plausible, but still barely a crackpot theory.
 

M3J

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I still don't see where this notion that akainu is on par with any yonko can possibly come from. Literally the only reference we have of this is the several skirmishes between him and whitebeard during marineford and the fact is that akainu got consistently rag dolled by whitebeard. Granted he wasn't straight up one shoted but WB at the war was clearly old and past his prime. He was disconnected from the machines which he needed to maintain his health. He had a heart attack in the middle of the battle. A jackass like squard injured him (though he could actually be plenty strong, we have no reference of that). The idea that akainu was yonko level back then has literally zero ground to stand on, its ludicrous. The idea that akainu is today a yonko level figther is plausible, but still barely a crackpot theory.
However, Whitebeard could have been on a tier of his own, higher than the other Emperors, as he was always hyped up to be the strongest. It doesn't negate the claim that Akainu could be on par with the emperors unless he's fought one of the other three and lost, or if Whitebeard was actually around the same level as the other emperors in his old age. PLus, there's a good chance that after Whitebeard took him down, Akainu didn't get back up because he was more focused on taking out Luffy in whatever way he could.
 

Fox666

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However, Whitebeard could have been on a tier of his own, higher than the other Emperors, as he was always hyped up to be the strongest. It doesn't negate the claim that Akainu could be on par with the emperors unless he's fought one of the other three and lost, or if Whitebeard was actually around the same level as the other emperors in his old age. PLus, there's a good chance that after Whitebeard took him down, Akainu didn't get back up because he was more focused on taking out Luffy in whatever way he could.
I think the series implied that young Whitebeard and Roger would have a hard time against Kaido and Big Mom. The same would probably also be true for Shanks.

It doesn't mean they couldn't win... but their opponents have 90% or their strength, and their crews are also a close match.

The results would be disastrous for both sides, and they would be easy targets for another enemy or the Marines.
 

HereNThere

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We'll need to wait for more recent feats of course, but honestly, we have enough lip service in the series that implies that the Admirals are comparable, if not equal, to the Yonkou.

Looking at each individual confrontation with the Admirals and Whitebeard, they were never portrayed as being significantly inferior. As a matter of fact, before the fights could even really get going, the Commanders took over.

Akainu was the only one he had an extended bout with and the former wasn't even overwhelmed. WB only took him out when his guard was down, which is something all the top dogs can fall prey too. Big Mom has been caught of guard a number of times, yet she's always fine because of her inhuman durability. Guard up Akainu had no issues dealing with Quake infused blows before hand.

Old Beard was strong, but I'm starting to lean towards the idea that the Admirals were superior to him at that moment. Prime Beard is another story.
 

Hibari Kyoya

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WB only took him out when his guard was down
Why is this being used to disregard/downplay the feat? The very fact that Akainu 'let his guard down', if that is even what happened, doesn't detract from Whitebeard it detracts from Akainu. If his guard was down, that just means Akainu was being stupid in the middle of a war and Whitebeard had the skill to overcome admiral-level Kenbunshoku haki.

Also, I don't see how you can say Akainu wasn't overwhelmed? After Ace died and Whitebeard got angry, Akainu got taken out of the fight in two hits (the second of which he didn't have 'his guard down'). What would Whitebeard have to do to overwhelm Akainu in your opinion?

If Admiral = Yonko in your eyes, why did the Marines require the Shichibukai? It's stated throughout the series that the reason the balance of power works is the distrust amongst the Yonko; that's why the Marines fear a Yonko alliance so much. Why would they fear a Yonko alliance if the Marines have more Yonko-caliber fighters plus the Shichibukai & Garp/Sengoku? The fact the entire marines and the Shichibukai were assembled for just Whitebeard (who ultimately was killed by Blackbeard's crew not the Marines), and then gave up the fight when Shanks appeared says enough IMO. Yonko>Admiral>Commander is the only way the power structure can work rationally. If Admirals were equal to Yonko, Yonko would simply be taken out, and if Commander's were equal to Admirals then the Marines would be taken out.

I -do- think that Akainu is the strongest Admiral. But, I don't see him beating Whitebeard/Shanks/Kaidou/Big Mom in single combat from what we saw at Marineford.
 

XXGenesis

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Akainu is the strongest amongst the Admirals.
Admirals are easily a challenge for Yonkou

WB was supposed to be the strongest Yonkou …That reign pretty much was off screened and is only hype or historical. The WB we saw only has glimpse and moments….his stamina will not hold out in such a fight…As to why he was mostly injured during his clashes 1 on 1 with the admirals.
 

M3J

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I think the series implied that young Whitebeard and Roger would have a hard time against Kaido and Big Mom. The same would probably also be true for Shanks.

It doesn't mean they couldn't win... but their opponents have 90% or their strength, and their crews are also a close match.

The results would be disastrous for both sides, and they would be easy targets for another enemy or the Marines.
where did it imply that?
 

HereNThere

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Why is this being used to disregard/downplay the feat? The very fact that Akainu 'let his guard down', if that is even what happened, doesn't detract from Whitebeard it detracts from Akainu. If his guard was down, that just means Akainu was being stupid in the middle of a war and Whitebeard had the skill to overcome admiral-level Kenbunshoku haki.
I'm not downplaying the feat. My point is that top tiers all have the capabilities to do significant damage to one another when they aren't expecting it so that back and forth is not full confirmation that Yonkou as a whole are superior to Admirals.

CoO is the most inconsistent ability in the series which only works when the plot calls for. Despite it being a thing, distractions and tunnel vision happen all the time in the series. Same thing happened to Marco and Jozu a few chapters before. Even in this current arc, we have confirmed CoO users letting their guard down in clear combat situations and getting injured.


Also, I don't see how you can say Akainu wasn't overwhelmed? After Ace died and Whitebeard got angry, Akainu got taken out of the fight in two hits (the second of which he didn't have 'his guard down'). What would Whitebeard have to do to overwhelm Akainu in your opinion?
When the two were completely focused on one another, neither held the advantage. Akainu even parried WB's bisento with a kick and managed to hold it before having a small back and forth. When WB got sick, Akainu took advantage of that situation. Next time they met, it was WB getting his hits in return. Both only got their licks in when guards were dropped.

If Admiral = Yonko in your eyes, why did the Marines require the Shichibukai? It's stated throughout the series that the reason the balance of power works is the distrust amongst the Yonko; that's why the Marines fear a Yonko alliance so much. Why would they fear a Yonko alliance if the Marines have more Yonko-caliber fighters plus the Shichibukai & Garp/Sengoku? The fact the entire marines and the Shichibukai were assembled for just Whitebeard (who ultimately was killed by Blackbeard's crew not the Marines), and then gave up the fight when Shanks appeared says enough IMO.
Admirals rivaling the Yonkou Captains doesn't mean that the Marines as a whole is capable of going against a Yonkou crew and their numerous allies. Even if the Admirals can take on a Yonkou member comfortably, it's not like they can split up the entire Marine force to go after each individual member themselves.

Their role in the World Power concept makes no real sense, but The Shichibukai added extra manpower and reputation. They didn't help with anything in terms of going against Yonkou. Hell, most of them were allied with Yonkou. Nevermind that none of then even got near WB in Marineford. Bit of a tangent, but it'd make more sense if Shichibukai were Pirates on the front line against certain Yonkou or former crew members.

Two Yonkou meeting means that they have every single asset under a single banner. Crew, weapons, allies, the whole shebang. It's implied the Marines don't have the sheer manpower to match an alliance of that sort. That being said, while the fodder Marines are worried, the Admirals seem rather nonplussed. It's a situation, but they aren't scared. Kizaru was ready to jump up and head to Wano himself to handle things. And Akainu only stopped him, not because of the alliance, but because of the Samurai being an unknown variable.

As I said earlier, while the Admirals may be capable of going toe to toe with Yonkou Captains, there are just way too many allies and crew members in the way to get to that point. They beat WB and it cost them a lot of manpower and Marineford itself was on its last legs.

They didn't "give up". The Admirals probably could fight Shanks and most of his crew. Aokiji and Kizaru were still relatively fresh and I assume Akainu was salivating at the potential opportunity to fight more Pirates. But they stopped fighting because Sengoku agreed with Shanks that any more fighting would just lead to unnecessary casualties, especially after they accomplished what they gathered to do. Had they kept fighting, they would've been at a massive disadvantage in terms of manpower, especially with Hancock chasing Luffy Mihawk just bouncing, and just losing a ton of men.

The Admirals can equal the Yonkou, they just don't have the means to get into a direct 1v1 fight. Oda has recently began to mention them more and more within the same breath, implying Big Mom had the potential to be one and having Luffy state that he plans to take down the Yonkou and Admirals.
 

Fox666

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where did it imply that?
Kaido and Big Mom were active pirates during Roger's time, and they have not been defeated. Apparently Roger managed to read Big Mom's poneglyphs without confronting her.
 

M3J

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Kaido and Big Mom were active pirates during Roger's time, and they have not been defeated. Apparently Roger managed to read Big Mom's poneglyphs without confronting her.
I don't remember that ever being mentioned, but there's also a chance that Roger at least didn't fight Big Mom or Kaidou because it'd have been too risky and unnecessary. Plus there are different possibilities as to why he chose not to fight Big Mom, and it wouldn't necessarily have to do with her being too even with him in power.
 

john ellis

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the warlords are honestly not that powerful as a force anyway. Like who would win in a 1 on 1 fight kaido vs the warlords? I would argue the flying six are equal to high tier warlord fighters, like who's who vs jinbei kinda proved that. Even still Like kaido could probably beat or tie with mihawk at the very least. Then his commanders+flying 6 probably takes down the rest of the warlords. Even still you have his 20,000 fodders on top of that. Which kaido's fodders are probably around 70-200k bounties, with alot of DF. Like i just don't see the royal warlords being able to take down a single yonko crew, even if you make mihawk yonko tier. The marine forces, if collected would low to mid dif a yonko crew. Like look at the war probably the strongest yonko crew with alot of powerful sudden reinforcements still got stomped. The war was hopeless before luffy's reinforcements, and luffy brought hope to the battlefield and it still was a easy win for the marines. They killed Ace and whitebeard, got 0 important deaths on there side.
 

kkck

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I think the series implied that young Whitebeard and Roger would have a hard time against Kaido and Big Mom. The same would probably also be true for Shanks.

It doesn't mean they couldn't win... but their opponents have 90% or their strength, and their crews are also a close match.

The results would be disastrous for both sides, and they would be easy targets for another enemy or the Marines.
That bit got me thinking... I am actually not sure that that is the case. At least if we are comparing the roger and whitebeard pirates from back in the day with current yonko. We know for a fact that yonko are relatively recent phenomenon's. Post roger execution basically. As we saw through oden's flashback how divisions came to be (more or less). Now, it's absolutely true that roger's and whitebeard's crews from back in the day were monstrously powerful and made even more absurdly dangerous by the fact that they were lead by roger and whitebeard in their absolute primes. But modern day yonko crews are massive.

Post roger's death WB got to have 16 divisions lead by 16 commanders each of whom had 100 men under them. And then you have all the crews affiliated to WB. Compare that to the force which WB had during his last fight with roger...

Big mom has her 84 children (out of whom at least 10 are big players in the world and the rest are still relevant fighters), rooks, fighters, affiliated crews, armies... A heavily surveilled island. And thousands of homies. She has an actual country....

BB took over whitebeard's territory and has his ten titanic captain leading what seems to be a massive force. While probably still a baby yonko BB seems to live up to his title. Add to that the fact that they are devil fruit hunters and seem to have gathered a bunch of BS abilities.

Shanks... welp, we don't know much about him. Other than his executives being apparently a cut above those of other yonko and overall apparently being a comparable force to the other yonko in general. It'd make sense if he also has affiliated crews.

So basically, it's one thing to say prime Roger and WB would have a hard time against the current living yonko. But the claim that their crews from back in the day are comparable to crews that pretty much have a GDP... While strong, I don't think their crews are stronger than that of current yonko.
 

Fox666

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Shanks... welp, we don't know much about him. Other than his executives being apparently a cut above those of other yonko and overall apparently being a comparable force to the other yonko in general. It'd make sense if he also has affiliated crews.
Brannew said the Red-Haired Pirates have high-bounties on average, he didn't specify the commanders.

A crew with only 10 people is going to have average bounties higher than the other Emperors with thousand fodders...
 

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Shanks = Roger = Garp >= Sengoku = Prime WB >=admiral > Kaido,BM>= old WB .
Until now Shanks power have not been revealed .Sword skill alone Shanks can match up with the strongest swordman Mihawk . But Shanks is a pirate , he's not only have sword skill and a master of Haki user. Lost an arm and make guragura + yamiyami DF user shit of his pants . I think Shanks is the strongest pirate .
 
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FetherMan

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How you put the “Commanders” before the “Shichikubai”…?.
 
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