Discussion Estimating Characters PL

[T25]

Speed is useful because as long as you are far faster than your opponent, you can attack before his neurons could process of moving a muscle or preparing a spell or technique.

That is what blitzing means.

Those variables don't matter when you are as slow as a snail compared to a character who can move as an example in the speed of light.

Escanor indeed blitzed them, Mael clearly stated that he didn't even see him moving, he was outspeeded so badly that he didn't see anything.
Same for Meliodas in the One form.

Nope, Merlin is below anyone who can either outspeed her so badly that she can't react in time or makes her magic irrelevant. ( like Chandler or Meliodas with Full Counter )

You stated “speed is useful” which I agree with but then you defined the fastest person as being the only one that can win. Seems a bit more than just “useful” don’t you think?

 

[Shadowlord123]

So, what do you think is Mael's PL without his Grace? And Gowther Sr.'s.



Actually, no we don't know that. I understand why people think that, but it's not been confirmed that she split her power when she gave them the Graces at all.

Yeah, you're right, it hasn't been properly stated that he split her power just like the DK, but seeing how OP are those powers and Ludo saying that essentialy the Graces are the same as the Decrees, it's kinda implied. Besides that, I think you quoted the wrong thing

As for the power level thing, OG Gowther was kinda confident to fight Zel, even though he said that he would waste a lot of magic doing so, and Zel in my books is AA level. I won't go as far to say that OG Gowther's power level is like 90-100K, but he should be between 70-80K for me at least. Also, the feat of modifying everyone's memories of Mael tells me that magically he's a beast (even though he needed help).

Sariel and Tarmiel were completely shocked that Mael could have been taken out by someone with a 60K power level, which leads me to believe that Mael at night had a power level of 60-70K. However, that contradicts what the manga has said about him that he was a weakling who couldn't even kill a fly and was born without PoL until he got his Grace (possibly). Even when he growed up, he was still struggling to what seems to be Gray Demons whose power level is 3K. It's kinda confusing, but so far the manga seems to portray him as a weakling. We'll see in the next chapters I suppose.

 

[sobreno]

You stated “speed is useful” which I agree with but then you defined the fastest person as being the only one that can win. Seems a bit more than just “useful” don’t you think?

If the speed gap is too ridiculous ( like my speed of light example ), then he will win with low difficulty, there isn't a competition when you are fighting a snail who move in a slow mention or like a statue. ( compared to your perception )

 

[T25]

That's the thing. We don't know, but it happened for sure. We just have to wait and see.

I do not reject the possibility that it could have happened but I question whether it did happen. As I questioned before, what does the magic stat represent? For instance if it represented capacity, how would that look and what about potency? Zeldris 10000 Merlin 3540. Zeldris would have a much larger store of magic but less impact but merlin would be reversed therefore a direct magical collision would result in merlins upper hand. That would be a reason to justify the skeleton and gray road events and the like (other than the fact gray road put up no resistance)

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 4, 2018 ---

If the speed gap is too ridiculous ( like my speed of light example ), then he will win with low difficulty, there isn't a competition when you are fighting a snail who move in a slow mention or like a statue. ( compared to your perception )

What if Mr lightspeed cannot hit hard enough. Relying on his own ability to generate force as well as the enormous force generated from his speed, what if then it is not enough how would he win? Even with saying that the winner of a fight cannot be determined beforehand solely based on a singular aspect of both parties. That is nonsensical. It disregards any other aspect or situation. Has cleverness never overcome a significant difference in attribute?

 

[Demonspeed]

I do not reject the possibility that it could have happened but I question whether it did happen. As I questioned before, what does the magic stat represent? For instance if it represented capacity, how would that look and what about potency? Zeldris 10000 Merlin 3540. Zeldris would have a much larger store of magic but less impact but merlin would be reversed therefore a direct magical collision would result in merlins upper hand. That would be a reason to justify the skeleton and gray road events and the like (other than the fact gray road put up no resistance)

PLs are just rough estimations. It's about magic power overall, just like Strength is about physical abilities overall.

 

[T25]

PLs are just rough estimations. It's about magic power overall, just like Strength is about physical abilities overall.

Then how would that play into bypassing ones defense? You stated that Merlin needed a higher PL than what we were given to be able the defeat gray road, why is that? Why do u believe that 3000 was not enough?

 

[sobreno]

I do not reject the possibility that it could have happened but I question whether it did happen. As I questioned before, what does the magic stat represent? For instance if it represented capacity, how would that look and what about potency? Zeldris 10000 Merlin 3540. Zeldris would have a much larger store of magic but less impact but merlin would be reversed therefore a direct magical collision would result in merlins upper hand. That would be a reason to justify the skeleton and gray road events and the like (other than the fact gray road put up no resistance)

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 4, 2018 ---

What if Mr lightspeed cannot hit hard enough. Relying on his own ability to generate force as well as the enormous force generated from his speed, what if then it is not enough how would he win? Even with saying that the winner of a fight cannot be determined beforehand solely based on a singular aspect of both parties. That is nonsensical. It disregards any other aspect or situation. Has cleverness never overcome a significant difference in attribute?

He should have enough power if he hit at the speed of light lmao.

Even if he can't hurt his opponent at all, his opponent has no way to even touch or catch him at all either, he can't do anything, all he can do is praying that his durability is powerful enough to withstand as long as possible, like a real statue.

With the speed of light, he can fight and cook at the same time lmao.

Cleverness isn't a factor when your neurons can't process fast enough to keep up with your opponent. You never see a fight between 2 characters where one horribly outclass the other in speed? The fight doesn't last a single second lol.

 

[Demonspeed]

Then how would that play into bypassing ones defense? You stated that Merlin needed a higher PL than what we were given to be able the defeat gray road, why is that? Why do u believe that 3000 was not enough?

Because both Fraudrin and Gray Lord are strong enough to resist to attack of this level with ease?

 

[T25]

He should have enough power if he hit at the speed of light lmao.

Even if he can't hurt his opponent at all, his opponent has no way to even touch or catch him at all either, he can't do anything, all he can do is praying that his durability is powerful enough to withstand as long as possible, like a real statue.

With the speed of light, he can fight and cook at the same time lmao.

Cleverness isn't a factor when your neurons can't process fast enough to keep up with your opponent. You never see a fight between 2 characters where one horribly outclass the other in speed? The fight doesn't last a single second lol.

You gave me a situation in where a man can easily travel at the speed of light and asserted the claim that he would always win. Just like the insanity of being able to travel at light speed I gave you a situation in where a man, mr light speeds opponent, is impervious to insane amounts of force so much so that the force generated from light speed travels is not enough to bypass his defense. As the situation may result in a stalemate who wins?

There are various degrees at which speeds differ between two people. You asserted that the fastest would win. However you gave me examples that tweaked that notion to suit your claim I believe. You gave me examples in which one side was overwhelmingly faster than the other but not of ones who held a lesser degree of greater speed. Your assertions were absolute: fast wins. Am I wrong? That would include all degrees of “greater than” within that spectrum. So is it true that fast always wins despite other variables?

 

[Raiyan]

So, what do you think is Mael's PL without his Grace? And Gowther Sr.'s.

Can't say for sure but for me I'll go with low-tier Commandments like Galand/Fraudrin with 30-35k for Mael
And for Gowther he was confident enough to go against Zeldris with DK's borrowed power so I'll go with 70-80k.. for me I think he was the 2nd strongest Commandments among the Original 10C besides Meliodas

 

[T25]

Because both Fraudrin and Gray Lord are strong enough to resist to attack of this level with ease?

So do all of Merlin’s offensive spells hit just as hard as each other?

 

[Demonspeed]

So do all of Merlin’s offensive spells hit just as hard as each other?

No? Obviously spells have different levels of power.

 

[T25]

No? Obviously spells have different levels of power.

So isn’t it possible that with her previously given PL she was able to cast a spell powerful enough to affect them? It’s why the magic stat has always made me the most curious (spirit is just bizarre I think)

 

[Demonspeed]

So isn’t it possible that with her previously given PL she was able to cast a spell powerful enough to affect them? It’s why the magic stat has always made me the most curious (spirit is just bizarre I think)

No, the power gap is way too big. Why would Fraudrin, who was in the 30K find a simple ice spell incredibly powerful? It doesn't make sense.

 

[sobreno]

You gave me a situation in where a man can easily travel at the speed of light and asserted the claim that he would always win. Just like the insanity of being able to travel at light speed I gave you a situation in where a man, mr light speeds opponent, is impervious to insane amounts of force so much so that the force generated from light speed travels is not enough to bypass his defense. As the situation may result in a stalemate who wins?

There are various degrees at which speeds differ between two people. You asserted that the fastest would win. However you gave me examples that tweaked that notion to suit your claim I believe. You gave me examples in which one side was overwhelmingly faster than the other but not of ones who held a lesser degree of greater speed. Your assertions were absolute: fast wins. Am I wrong? That would include all degrees of “greater than” within that spectrum. So is it true that fast always wins despite other variables?

Not really, I gave you a scenario where one guy horribly outclasses his opponent in speed, the fastest speed known for man is the speed of light, that is why I take the mr light speed as the fastest here in my example.

I didn't suit my claim just because, I am coherent on my stance from the start about the fastest against the snail type of opponent. ( compared to him and his overwhelming speed )
What you are doing is semantics here because you are denying what it is obvious in that kind of scenario.
Let's say one character has a good firepower + speed of light ( aka the fastest ever ) against another character who also has a good firepower but the speed of sound ( like a snail compared to mr light speed guy ) + higher intellectual capacity overall.

Anyone will say that the Mr speed of light will win, even if he is as stupid as an animal.

The fastest has the highest chance of winning here and zero chance of losing since he is safe from any kind of attack due to his speed.
That speed overwhelms others variables, the opponent has no time to form a strategy against that type of opponent, can't hit with his best moves, can't do anything at all except taking hit again and again right in the face and body until he collapses.

 

[T25]

No, the power gap is way too big. Why would Fraudrin, who was in the 30K find a simple ice spell incredibly powerful? It doesn't make sense.

I think the gap between Meliodas and Merlin is bigger(shock stinger)

 

[Demonspeed]

I think the gap between Meliodas and Merlin is bigger(shock stinger)

Yes, but Meliodas was weakened and injured from the fight with Escanor.

 

[T25]

Not really, I gave you a scenario where one guy horribly outclasses his opponent in speed, the fastest speed known for man is the speed of light, that is why I take the mr light speed as the fastest here in my example.

I didn't suit my claim just because, I am coherent on my stance from the start about the fastest against the snail type of opponent. ( compared to him and his overwhelming speed )
What you are doing is semantics here because you are denying what it is obvious in that kind of scenario.
Let's say one character has a good firepower + speed of light ( aka the fastest ever ) against another character who also has a good firepower but the speed of sound ( like a snail compared to mr light speed guy ) + higher intellectual capacity overall.

Anyone will say that the Mr speed of light will win, even if he is as stupid as an animal.

The fastest has the highest chance of winning here and zero chance of losing since he is safe from any kind of attack due to his speed.
That speed overwhelms others variables, the opponent has no time to form a strategy against that type of opponent, can't hit with his best moves, can't do anything at all except taking hit again and again right in the face and body until he collapses.

You are right I do believe that you were adamant and consistent in your light speed vs snail comparison. But this conversation came in regards to Merlin and galan (the comparison between these two is not to such a degree) and from there we went on to the importance of speed in a fight in general to which I stated that the faster or fastest person isnt guaranteed to win.

I don't agree with this because the fastest person will blitz the hell out of a slower opponent,

You did not agree. My statement was general, you introduced an extreme.

I do like to dabble with semantics. I would think that it be important for clarities sake in a discussion right?

My statement encompasses all manners of degree in the difference of speed between two, great or small. You have not given me the same

 

[sobreno]

You are right I do believe that you were adamant and consistent in your light speed vs snail comparison. But this conversation came in regards to Merlin and galan (the comparison between these two is not to such a degree) and from there we went on to the importance of speed in a fight in general to which I stated that the faster or fastest person isnt guaranteed to win.
You did not agree. My statement was general, you introduced an extreme.

I do like to dabble with semantics. I would think that it be important for clarities sake in a discussion right?

My statement encompasses all manners of degree in the difference of speed between two, great or small. You have not given me the same

But she get horribly blitzed against Galand, he escaped even her teleportation range casually. It is clear in the manga.

It is the same thing lol. A character who overwhelmed another character thanks to his speed, she even tried to win some time by playing with words. ( aka saying a lie )

Playing with semantics isn't good and intelligent when the outcomes are clear from the start. ( like the extreme scenario that I presented to you, the lightspeed vs the snail one )

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 4, 2018 ---

Also what your statement encompasses doesn't matter, as long as the other side has an overwhelming speed in his pocket, he will blitz the hell out of the slower one, no question about that.

That is how fighting works, how physics works, how logic works.

 

[T25]

Yes, but Meliodas was weakened and injured from the fight with Escanor.

He didn’t look that injured when he shot back up. You believe he was weakened to the extent that Merlin was able to incapacitate him with a quick shot attack? His natural defense dropped far enough? I would imagine that it takes some amount of recovery before someone would wake up.