Depends on the extravagance of the power-up, but if it had lore to support it then it would be more acceptable.
But from the lore we currently have, if Elizabeth was to pull out some hidden magical power that makes her able to defeat her mother easily then it rectons the whole ''there was nothing we could do against our parents'' moment etc
While I would not support the ease at which they would win should they win with such ease, picture this: we know Eli does not support her mothers actions and ideology. There’s a basis to believe she has been punished before. Is it valid if one such punishment was the stripping of her power? How about another scenario where it was completely locked up just the same as arthur? Execution rather than extravagance is what I find more important no?
I'm still waiting for more info on Eli's light wings, looks like it sorta parallels Mel's true magic, them both being visual representations of their magic and all, rather than just unique abilities or attacks like most people have. Could Eli have temporarily accessed some of her OG magic before?
Personally, I've always seen these light wings as an angelic counterpart to the ''second demonic mark'' that Meliodas, Zeldris & presumably the Demon King have. We already know that the demonic mark of a demon can signify the strength of an individual (prime example being Meliodas and his having multiple stages when regressing) and this is the same for the Goddess Clan when it comes to the expression of wings.
We've only seen the demonic princes use the second demon marks and Elizabeth use light wings, so I assume these powers are hereditary and are a temporary boost in power and actually have nothing to do when it comes to each child's core ''OG magic'' (I.E Zel has ON, Mel has his OG magic and Elizabeth realistically should have her own OG magic with light wings as another ability).
If these light wings actually did temporarily increase Elizabeth's PL dramatically to a higher level, then it could explain why there was such a dramatic difference in performance between Elizabeth's ark and Ludoshel's ark against the Indura despite them being fairly comparable even if Elizabeth is the stronger magician.
Maybe this is the equivalent of Meliodas ''assault mode'' for Elizabeth instead of a ''second demonic mark'' - but either way it seems to undeniably push her PL/magic to a much higher level than when she isn't using it.
Meliodas has seen to double his PL (from 32k to 60k?) when he used his demonic mark and Zeldris has been able to use his to increase the strength of Ominous Nebula.. if Elizabeth's base is comparable/equal to Ludoshel's then these light wings/power-up mode could possibly push her PL to an extreme of 300,000+ (complete speculation of course) since her base seems to vary between 250,000-200,000.
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But yeah, with all the statements of comparability between Ludoshel & Elizabeth with the former having a weakened PL of 200,000 (I.E in a vessel) I believe her PL's are:
If light wings form is a mode that gives power up then I'll put Elizabeth at the 350k mark the fact that she was struggling against the induras and the same indueas who were beating ludo though serious ludo would have killed them.
So I'll put Light wings mode Elizabeth at the same level of Late afternoon noon mael (current) at max.
Also she isn't AA tier without those light wings mode
Personally, I've always seen these light wings as an angelic counterpart to the ''second demonic mark'' that Meliodas, Zeldris & presumably the Demon King have. We already know that the demonic mark of a demon can signify the strength of an individual (prime example being Meliodas and his having multiple stages when regressing) and this is the same for the Goddess Clan when it comes to the expression of wings.
We've only seen the demonic princes use the second demon marks and Elizabeth use light wings, so I assume these powers are hereditary and are a temporary boost in power and actually have nothing to do when it comes to each child's core ''OG magic'' (I.E Zel has ON, Mel has his OG magic and Elizabeth realistically should have her own OG magic with light wings as another ability).
If these light wings actually did temporarily increase Elizabeth's PL dramatically to a higher level, then it could explain why there was such a dramatic difference in performance between Elizabeth's ark and Ludoshel's ark against the Indura despite them being fairly comparable even if Elizabeth is the stronger magician.
Maybe this is the equivalent of Meliodas ''assault mode'' for Elizabeth instead of a ''second demonic mark'' - but either way it seems to undeniably push her PL/magic to a much higher level than when she isn't using it.
Meliodas has seen to double his PL (from 32k to 60k?) when he used his demonic mark and Zeldris has been able to use his to increase the strength of Ominous Nebula.. if Elizabeth's base is comparable/equal to Ludoshel's then these light wings/power-up mode could possibly push her PL to an extreme of 300,000+ (complete speculation of course) since her base seems to vary between 250,000-200,000.
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But yeah, with all the statements of comparability between Ludoshel & Elizabeth with the former having a weakened PL of 200,000 (I.E in a vessel) I believe her PL's are:
I used to think the same, until recently, remember Mel's demon mark is part of his true magic, it disappears from his head onto his torso.
Elizabeth's light wings are the only aspect of Elizabeth that foreshadows there being more to her abilities, so if the light wings are indeed just a demon mark-esque power up, then I don't think she will obtain a true magic. After all, we don't really have the time left for two powerups from Elizabeth and even if we did, the light wings would be better suited to being her OG magic. They've been present in the manga for ages, ever since the Hendrikson arc, for them to have no more depth than being a measly demon mark-type powerup would be lame as fuck.
No one has said that Elizabeth's base is equal to Mael and Ludociel, just that she is on their level as a whole. If we go by your explanation of the light wings Eli's base is likely similar to Meliodas' base, around 60k, which explains why Derriere could oneshot her. And when Eli and Mel activate their powerups they jump into the higher ends of AA tier.
No one has said that Elizabeth's base is equal to Mael and Ludociel, just that she is on their level as a whole. If we go by your explanation of the light wings Eli's base is likely similar to Meliodas' base, around 60k, which explains why Derriere could oneshot her. And when Eli and Mel activate their powerups they jump into the higher ends of AA tier.
Derieri ''one-shotted her'' because Nakaba wanted to remove Elizabeth from the situation and create dramatic tension between her and Meliodas. It's no different than how Human Elizabeth was able to land a physical hit on Meliodas at his regressed state in Assault Mode, because he wanted to create dramatic effect in their relationship whilst removing Elizabeth from the situation and back into the alliance's side - or are you going to tell me that a average female human has the capabilities to outmanoeuvre a top tier demon whilst he's directly looking at her?
This casual punch from Derieri is inconsistent given how Goddess Elizabeth has survived much more powerful physical & magical attacks from her mother and the Demon King, thus supporting my point.
It doesn't make sense for Elizabeth & Meliodas base to be much lower than the AA's and in the realm of the 60's considering these ''power-ups'' only exist for a short-term and are not permanent. Plus, Elizabeth's wings (her real ones) are directly equal looking to Ludoshel's and Mael's (outside of sun) which Nakaba has confirmed is an expression of strength for a Goddess.
Nakaba's already made it pretty clear through multiple interactions with the characters in this story and statements by himself that Elizabeth is on the same level of power as Ludoshel & Mael in her base. I'm just baffled why people are this stubborn to not accepting it?
Derieri ''one-shotted her'' because Nakaba wanted to remove Elizabeth from the situation and create dramatic tension between her and Meliodas.
This casual punch from Derieri is inconsistent given how Goddess Elizabeth has survived much more powerful physical & magical attacks from her mother and the Demon King, thus supporting my point.
It doesn't make sense for Elizabeth & Meliodas base to be much lower than the AA's and in the realm of the 60's considering these ''power-ups'' only exist for a short-term and are not permanent. Plus, Elizabeth's wings (her real ones) are directly equal looking to Ludoshel's and Mael's (outside of sun) which Nakaba has confirmed is an expression of strength for a Goddess.
Nakaba's already made it pretty clear through multiple interactions with the characters in this story and statements by himself that Elizabeth is on the same level of power as Ludoshel & Mael in her base. I'm just baffled why people are this stubborn to not accepting it?Nakaba literally confirmed that she's AA tier
The attacks the DK and SD used are unknown, and for all you know Eli had her light wings up when tanking them. It'd be ridiculous for her not to fight them at full power, unless her light wings aren't actually a powerup.
Mel's demon mark can be maintained for as long as he's capable of fighting, if Eli's light wings are the same as you theorized then this is true for her too. As for wing size, as I understand it the wings are a expression of position, not power. If I recall correctly Demonspeed brought up the actual quote from Nakaba a while ago that clarified this. Besides, all AA wings are more or less the same anyway, sure Sariel's are a little smaller but that's normal given his height and Tarmiel has 6. Mael's also didn't grow at all with Sun powering him, so we can safely say that wings don't get bigger with more and more power, you have to be a whole rank above for any kind of difference.
Nakaba confirmed that she as a whole is AA tier, her being able to power up beyond would be contradicting what Nakaba said, it's like saying Meliodas without his demon mark is on par with Ludo.
If Elizabeth's base is around ludo level then the light wings stuff is nothing but just for show or only gives a very little power up because we saw in her light wings mode she was able to over power the phase 1 indura but struggled against phase 2 indura and need sar and tar help and I'm sure that a serious Ludociel would have definitely killed the phase 1 induras and may have struggled against the phase 2.
So it's clear that Elizabeth with light wings mode is equal to Ludociel.
Base Elizabeth should be as strong as sar or tar
Sure, but Meliodas told us himself that there was nothing they could do, suggesting that they were so far beyond what Eliz/Mel could handle.
Elizabeth can handle the Gods throwing shit at her but can't take a single casual punch from Derieri? Totally inconsistent unless it's actually dramatic effect or to move the plot forward (I.E Get Elizabeth out of the way and have the AA's fight the 10C's).
Don't give me ''but the Gods were holding back'' since Derieri's single casual punch without combo star can be considered as ''holding back'' as well.
and for all you know Eli had her light wings up when tanking them. It'd be ridiculous for her not to fight them at full power, unless her light wings aren't actually a powerup.
From both instances where we have seen Elizabeth use her light wings they seem to directly influence the power of her magic only, not her physical strength.
If Nakaba wanted to imply that Elizabeth had used these wings during the battle, then he would've had them drawn on the final page of 223 where we see them both pissed with Meliodas mark active. I assume Elizabeth never used them due to the great difference in power or did and miserably failed.
Mel's demon mark can be maintained for as long as he's capable of fighting, if Eli's light wings are the same as you theorized then this is true for her too. As for wing size, as I understand it the wings are a expression of position, not power.
Would you like to explain how Child Mael who had no position of authority among the clan had four wings whilst Divine Lance Corporals like Jelamet whom have higher authority than a child only have two? He wasn't apart of the AA's as a child and his wings expressed his power/potential, not rank.
Also, if wings are truly about clan position then why doesn't Ludoshel have bigger wings than Mael? Since he's the AA leader, or actually why don't Mael, Sariel & Tarmiel have equal wings since Nakaba said the AA's (except Ludoshel) have equal rank? Why does the Goddess Princess only have four wings whom are comparable to the AA's despite being royalty which is usually regarded as a higher authority above all else? Why does the Supreme Deity have 10 wings? Why not 8? Why not 6, 5?
I'm sure you get the point but the argument that these wings are an expression of ''position'' is illogical and is directly contradicted by how Nakaba has layed out the power hierarchy in the Goddess Clan (SD > Mael > Ludoshel/Elizabeth > Sariel/Tarmiel > Lance Corporals > fodder) which is coincidental with the fact that the more power someone has, the bigger wings they have.
Besides, all AA wings are more or less the same anyway, sure Sariel's are a little smaller but that's normal given his height and Tarmiel has 6. Mael's also didn't grow at all with Sun powering him, so we can safely say that wings don't get bigger with more and more power, you have to be a whole rank above for any kind of difference.
Not really, Mael & Ludoshel are comparable but directly outshadow Sariel's & Tarmiel's.
Mael's wings did get bigger unless Nakaba's drawing is inconsistent. I believe there was a panel where he used sun near noon and his wings looked much bigger than Ludoshel's but then when we see him without the grace his wings are comparable to Elizabeth's.
Nakaba confirmed that she as a whole is AA tier, her being able to power up beyond would be contradicting what Nakaba said, it's like saying Meliodas without his demon mark is on par with Ludo.
Why would it contradict that? He never said ''Elizabeth's maximum power is AA tier only'' but rather ''Elizabeth's power is comparable to the AA with unknown limits''.
Sure, but Meliodas told us himself that there was nothing they could do, suggesting that they were so far beyond what Eliz/Mel could handle.
Elizabeth can handle the Gods throwing shit at her but can't take a single casual punch from Derieri? Totally inconsistent unless it's actually dramatic effect or to move the plot forward (I.E Get Elizabeth out of the way and have the AA's fight the 10C's).
Don't give me ''but the Gods were holding back'' since Derieri's single casual punch without combo star can be considered as ''holding back'' as well.
Sorry, but holding back is still a valid excuse. The DK and SD can make there attacks as strong or weak as they want, they can make their attacks Gilthunder tier if they want, or they can make them strong enough to bring their children to the brink of death, it's their choice, Emo Mel survived when he was still fodder.
From both instances where we have seen Elizabeth use her light wings they seem to directly influence the power of her magic only, not her physical strength.
If Nakaba wanted to imply that Elizabeth had used these wings during the battle, then he would've had them drawn on the final page of 223 where we see them both pissed with Meliodas mark active. I assume Elizabeth never used them due to the great difference in power or did and miserably failed.
The first time we saw Elizabeth's light wings she used it to repel Hendrickson's attack, could have used it the same way against the gods.
Not necessarily, it is likely that Nakaba considers Elizabeth's light wings as part of her overall power, so even without drawing her light wings it may have been this overall power that was the reason he thought it acceptable for Elizabeth to survive against the gods off panel.
Would you like to explain how Child Mael who had no position of authority among the clan had four wings whilst Divine Lance Corporals like Jelamet whom have higher authority than a child only have two? He wasn't apart of the AA's as a child and his wings expressed his power/potential, not rank.
Also, if wings are truly about clan position then why doesn't Ludoshel have bigger wings than Mael? Since he's the AA leader, or actually why don't Mael, Sariel & Tarmiel have equal wings since Nakaba said the AA's (except Ludoshel) have equal rank? Why does the Goddess Princess only have four wings whom are comparable to the AA's despite being royalty which is usually regarded as a higher authority above all else? Why does the Supreme Deity have 10 wings? Why not 8? Why not 6, 5?
I'm sure you get the point but the argument that these wings are an expression of ''position'' is illogical and is directly contradicted by how Nakaba has layed out the power hierarchy in the Goddess Clan (SD > Mael > Ludoshel/Elizabeth > Sariel/Tarmiel > Lance Corporals > fodder) which is coincidental with the fact that the more power someone has, the bigger wings they have.
Sure, because he was Ludo's brother. We also don't know he wasn't an AA at that time.
Ludociel is the same rank as the rest of the AA, he only calls himself leader, confirmed in a Q/A.
As for Elizabeth, while she has respect as the SD's daughter, her authority is minimal at best, certainly not above any AA.
Not really, Mael & Ludoshel are comparable but directly outshadow Sariel's & Tarmiel's.
Mael's wings did get bigger unless Nakaba's drawing is inconsistent. I believe there was a panel where he used sun near noon and his wings looked much bigger than Ludoshel's but then when we see him without the grace his wings are comparable to Elizabeth's.
Just a proportion thing, Sariel is smaller so giving him massive Ludo size wings would look weird.
Nah, Mael's wings were the same as when Gowther first freed him from the commandments, they've always been around the same. Though speaking of Mael, he had 6 wings with 4 Commandments. Is 4C Mael a cut above Eli, Ludo and Sun Mael? I guess he could be, but that would mean none of them break 300k. It would also mean King massacres any of them, though thats likely the case either way.
Why would it contradict that? He never said ''Elizabeth's maximum power is AA tier only'' but rather ''Elizabeth's power is comparable to the AA with unknown limits''.
This seems correct
Finally someone who understands One mode escanor is stronger than late afternoon mael and king and is as strong as ban though I would say king is 400k
This seems correct
Finally someone who understands One mode escanor is stronger than late afternoon mael and king and is as strong as ban though I would say king is 400k
This'll be an argument that Commandments and Graces do indeed grant PL, even when only one is used by a person.
First of all, Commandments are said to be the demon king splitting half his power into ten parts after giving it to one person failed. This implies that giving power is not a problem, simply concentrating it in one person is. Clearly, even if he boosts someone by 20k or 30k, they are no threat to him individually. Moreover, granting PL to your suboordinates is highly effective in winning a war if you almost never fight, and if their main enemies are immune to commandment curses, even more so. So, the Demon King has both good motive to do so and a good method to do so. We have also seen commandments directly grant PL when absorbed, so there is certainly a power source there to be harnessed. Both Mael and Meliodas show this. And of course, nobody ever says anything contrary.
Graces also clearly boost PL, escanor proves this easily. Remember, even 6PM escanor is massively increased in power compared to a normal human, so it is clear Sunshine's positives at day are not fully balanced out by its nighttime weakness. Compare that Escanor to normal 40yr old man Escanor who would be weak anyways. Even Dreyfus, one of the strongest humans, is 3K max at all times, while even at midnight, Escanor can achieve a 20K tier attack with a mental image of Sunshine that invokes the grace's power. Therefore, Sunshine is undeniably a massive net boost to his effective PL. No reason the same shouldn't go for any other grace or commandment, all graces would possess the same total amount of energy inside them. That is how sunshine boosts power, external time of day just mediates how powerfully it can release its energy. His ability to use it at night clearly demonstrates this. All commandments and graces would use the same principle, drawing on their energy for power, this is what explains their power boosts in the first place.
Not too sure. We know that he is at least as strong as them at 50% since he can break the curses (the only reason the curse on Eli is still active is because the DK is constantly recreating it). We need more feats to give an appropiate answer. For now, until new feats and info, I'd say he is weaker than them at Full Power.
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