Discussion Estimating Characters PL

[OtakuFreak]

This'll be an argument that Commandments and Graces do indeed grant PL, even when only one is used by a person.

First of all, Commandments are said to be the demon king splitting half his power into ten parts after giving it to one person failed. This implies that giving power is not a problem, simply concentrating it in one person is. Clearly, even if he boosts someone by 20k or 30k, they are no threat to him individually. Moreover, granting PL to your suboordinates is highly effective in winning a war if you almost never fight, and if their main enemies are immune to commandment curses, even more so. So, the Demon King has both good motive to do so and a good method to do so. We have also seen commandments directly grant PL when absorbed, so there is certainly a power source there to be harnessed. Both Mael and Meliodas show this. And of course, nobody ever says anything contrary.

Graces also clearly boost PL, escanor proves this easily. Remember, even 6PM escanor is massively increased in power compared to a normal human, so it is clear Sunshine's positives at day are not fully balanced out by its nighttime weakness. Compare that Escanor to normal 40yr old man Escanor who would be weak anyways. Even Dreyfus, one of the strongest humans, is 3K max at all times, while even at midnight, Escanor can achieve a 20K tier attack with a mental image of Sunshine that invokes the grace's power. Therefore, Sunshine is undeniably a massive net boost to his effective PL. No reason the same shouldn't go for any other grace or commandment, all graces would possess the same total amount of energy inside them. That is how sunshine boosts power, external time of day just mediates how powerfully it can release its energy. His ability to use it at night clearly demonstrates this. All commandments and graces would use the same principle, drawing on their energy for power, this is what explains their power boosts in the first place.

The only god given power which boosts PL is sun, all others are merely just additional abilities that have no impact on the individual's PL.

They only increase PL if directly absorbed which intern makes the user lose the specific abilities they were granted (I.E Estarossa's love commandment wasn't in effect anymore).

 

[Arjuna]

The only god given power which boosts PL is sun, all others are merely just additional abilities that have no impact on the individual's PL.

They only increase PL if directly absorbed which intern makes the user lose the specific abilities they were granted (I.E Estarossa's love commandment wasn't in effect anymore).

He used the ability of Silent commandment though while he had absorbed it.

 

[OtakuFreak]

He used the ability of Silent commandment though while he had absorbed it.

Which was entirely different in how it performed:

-The commandments are curses which activate only when a specific set of conditions are achieved, which contradicts how Mael summoned the silence ability at will.

-The curses don't even need physical contact, just being in there presence will force you under their conditions, unlike when Mael had to actually hit King/Diane to silence them.

-These curses have so far only been able to be dispelled or broken through the Supreme Deity's power (I.E Merlin's blessing, AA's divine protection etc) yet we saw Elizabeth in her human body capable of breaking the silence effect on Diane after a little bit of struggle. Unless Elizabeth is an exception to the above rule of them being absolute outside of the SD's influence, then the only way to explain how she dispelled it is if the silence effect was significantly weaker when directly absorbed.

Perhaps I worded it wrong, but the commandment ability isn't lost when absorbed, it just seems to become significantly weaker and trash compared to its former state, which makes sense. After all, why absorb the commandment if just holding it grants you a stronger ability + PL?

TL.DR:

-Holding a commandment doesn't directly grant PL, but merely gives you a powerful curse ability which cannot be refuted in normal circumstances.

-Absorbing the commandment will directly grant you a PL boost, but in return you'll lose the powerful curse ability and have a trash version of it instead.

Pretty sound if you think about it, do you absorb the god-given power for a PL boost or merely hold it for a ''hax'' power which is OP? Pros VS Cons and I assume this applies to the graces as well.

Mael's attack arsenal was pretty trash despite having four commandments absorbed, hopefully that supports my argument.

 

[Merlin918]

The only god given power which boosts PL is sun, all others are merely just additional abilities that have no impact on the individual's PL.

They only increase PL if directly absorbed which intern makes the user lose the specific abilities they were granted (I.E Estarossa's love commandment wasn't in effect anymore).

First of all it has been stated nowhere that this is the case, this is just fan headcanon, while the manga heavily implies that commandments and graces do give PL. See the example of the Sinner, the commandments are just stated to be this powerup but split up. And we see "One of us Archangels is equal to two of you commandments" spelled out really clearly. If that's not "Grace=2.5 Commandments" it is a huge and rather unlikely coincidence which just happens to fit the theory perfectly.

I simply can't agree with this entire idea on a basic logical level, as it would make Commandments totally useless against the AAs who are immune. Kind of defeats the whole point of donating power if it does not actually make someone stronger against the people who it matters the most against. A few like Piety and Love are often useful against fodders, while many others are gimmicky(Repose, Purity, Silence, etc), but all of them would not work for fighting the AAs. Same goes with a Grace just granting a new ability. What's the point if you can already use "Ark" at the same level of potency? It might offer a few more options but that's just nowhere near as good as if it gave a PL boost too. And we already know it can based on the Sinner. The only person who tried to argue otherwise was Seven777 who said that somehow it would be impossible to grant pure PL to demons with a commandment due to his speculation that it might drive them mad in pure PL form, which has no evidence at all of being actually true.

I know you said this in response to someone else but it still seems important to respond to:

Perhaps I worded it wrong, but the commandment ability isn't lost when absorbed, it just seems to become significantly weaker and trash compared to its former state, which makes sense. After all, why absorb the commandment if just holding it grants you a stronger ability + PL?"

Everyone who uses a commandment absorbs it. Even Mael does, he just absorbs it improperly, unlike the 'proper' absorption that Meliodas describes. There's never been any line saying that Commandments and AA's are just holding their commandments/graces, and it seems much more logical that they do actually absorb them to take possession of them. Same goes with nobody ever saying anything of the sort that "Commandments vanish when absorbed". The only argument I remember anyone proposing to try to prove this is that they must not be there because Ban wasn't affected by Love. Which is not valid, as he ignored Love before against Estarossa during 10C vs Mel, and Estarossa undeniably had it active no matter what your interpretation of commandments is. Nakaba just forgot about it both times.

 

[Meliodaf]

Elizabeth has one of the highest power levels in the manga.

Some of you were so wrong.

 

[Shadowlord123]

Tbh, the last Q/A didn't come as a big surprise for me. I always thought Goddess Elizabeth was comparable to Ludo and Mael (this last one depending on the time of the day). First of all, she is the daughter of a God. Second, her wings are bigger than those of Sar/Tar and comparable to Ludo and Mael (Nakaba already stated that the size and number of wings are an indication of a Goddess's power). And the last things: the Indura feat, her standing and lasting just as long as 2nd DM Mel against the Gods and Mael's statement. It was obvious all along and this Q/A just confirms the obvious again.

Like I said, I don't doubt that Goddess Eli's raw power is comparable to Ludo and Mael and potentially higher, but what I don't have any clue of is how good are her battle skills (durability, speed, endurance...). As to why she hasn't fought yet, it is because she's in a weak human body and thus weakened. Hopefully we can see Goddess Eli again showcasing new feats and doing something besides healing.

 

[Ger]

Prime mel>>>>Elizabeth

 

[sobreno]

Prime mel>>>>Elizabeth

Well yeah, that is not even a contest as Meliodas is anti magic hax and a worst match up for someone who is focused on magic only attack.

let's see:

Magic? Let's forgot that his OG power exists as it is a horrible mismatch for anyone in the verse when it was revealed that it made him literally a God tier and the Demon Lord himself.

So, his magic power and ability would be Full Counter as it was the case 3000 years ago and in the Holy War.

Meliodas's Full Counter is basically a " lol no u " at anything she could throw at him, she will get it back with more than double the Original power.
Meliodas can also vanish any of her attack if he wishes with Vanish Counter. Basically, any of her Ark and magic attack is useless on Meliodas which is 100% of her offensive arsenal in battle.

Physical capabilities?

Again, no contest here, Meliodas destroys her if we talk about pure fighting brawl with no magic, just your body capabilities.

Conclusion, in a direct fight, 2nd Demon Mark Holy War Meliodas overwhelms her by having better hax to No U her magic attack and better physical stats to punch her around and we saw what a single punch from Derrierie did to her lol.

Also that 2nd Demon Mark Holy War Meliodas made Ludo wary to face him alone and called assistant to finish off Meliodas and Meliodas had no problem in the idea of facing him with Sar and Tar.

And that isn't Prime TC Demon Mark Meliodas, the one that made Mael run away from the heavenly sky.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Time to revive this thread given it has been a few months and the power-scaling has jumped....

Here are my new predictions, although they're vague and as we know, PL isn't everything. Lower end generally means if the individual doesn't use their sacred treasure or go all out.

Chaos - Immeasurable? Easily in the millions but inferior to the combined PL of the DK & SD supposedly.

SD & DK & Sacred Tree (100%) - 1,500,000-2,000.000

SD/DK at 50% (with Meliodas) - 750,000 - 1,000,000.

Noon Mael - 800,000 - 1,000,000

Noon Escanor - 600,000 - 750,000 (higher end being ultimate)

Ban - 500,000 - 600,000

Prime Meliodas - 400,000 - 500,000

Goddess Elizabeth - 400,000 - 500,000

King - 350,000 - 450,000.

Indura of Favour - 350,000 - 400,000

Ludoshel/Base Mael - 300,000 - 350,000

Original Demon - 300,000 - 341,000 (assuming he's the total of Cusack & Chandler's PL)

4C Mael - 200,000 - 250,000.

Sariel & Tarmiel - 200,000

Zeldris - 150,000 - 200,000.

Merlin - 100,000+

Now... dare to disagree with me, filthy mortals.

 

[Shadowlord123]

IMO, it's something like this:

4C Mael - 235.000

The Sinner - 280.000 + (up to 300.000 with Crisis)

Induras of Favour - 285.000+ (can evolve)

Ludoshel (OG Body)/Elizabeth (OG Body) - 305.000

Zeldris (God+Ominous Nebula+2nd DM) - 310.000

Meliodas (2nd DM, Prime) - 330.000

Mael (Sun Grace, not Noon) - 330.000+ (up to maybe 400.000 just before Noon)

Meliodas (AM, Prime) - 370.000

King (Fully Grown Wings) / Ban (Post-Purgatory, with ST) / Meliodas (Post-Purgatory, DM) - 470.000

Demon King (Possessing Meliodas, vessel not fully assimilated) - 500.000

Mael (Noon) / Escanor (The One) - 530.000

Escanor (The One Ultimate) - 690.000

Demon King (Possessing Zeldris, 1st stage) - 325.000

Demon King (Possessing Zeldris, 2nd stage) - 415.000

Demon King (Possessing Britannia) - 700.000

Demon King/Supreme Deity (50%) - 750.000-850.000

Meliodas (OG Magic) - 1.000.000

Demon King/Supreme Deity/Sacred Tree (Full Power, assuming the DK was only at 50% during the final fight) - 1.500.000

Chaos - 2.000.000+

Feel free to agree/disagree.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 7, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 7, 2020 ---

Time to revive this thread given it has been a few months and the power-scaling has jumped....

Here are my new predictions, although they're vague and as we know, PL isn't everything. Lower end generally means if the individual doesn't use their sacred treasure or go all out.

Chaos - Immeasurable? Easily in the millions but inferior to the combined PL of the DK & SD supposedly.

SD & DK & Sacred Tree (100%) - 1,500,000-2,000.000

SD/DK at 50% (with Meliodas) - 750,000 - 1,000,000.

Noon Mael - 800,000 - 1,000,000

Noon Escanor - 600,000 - 750,000 (higher end being ultimate)

Ban - 500,000 - 600,000

Prime Meliodas - 400,000 - 500,000

Goddess Elizabeth - 400,000 - 500,000

King - 350,000 - 450,000.

Indura of Favour - 350,000 - 400,000

Ludoshel/Base Mael - 300,000 - 350,000

Original Demon - 300,000 - 341,000 (assuming he's the total of Cusack & Chandler's PL)

4C Mael - 200,000 - 250,000.

Sariel & Tarmiel - 200,000

Zeldris - 150,000 - 200,000.

Merlin - 100,000+

Now... dare to disagree with me, filthy mortals.

Noon Mael is massively overrated, with that kind of PL the dude would melt the whole demon race with his presence baring the DK during that one minute

 

[OtakuFreak]

Noon Mael is massively overrated, with that kind of PL the dude would melt the whole demon race with his presence baring the DK during that one minute

Well the entire clan killed themselves in the war once he died, he has to be powerful enough to warrant such a response.

 

[Aceinthehole]

IMO, it's something like this:

4C Mael - 235.000

The Sinner - 280.000 + (up to 300.000 with Crisis)

Induras of Favour - 285.000+ (can evolve)

Ludoshel (OG Body)/Elizabeth (OG Body) - 305.000

Zeldris (God+Ominous Nebula+2nd DM) - 310.000

Meliodas (2nd DM, Prime) - 330.000

Mael (Sun Grace, not Noon) - 330.000+ (up to maybe 400.000 just before Noon)

Meliodas (AM, Prime) - 370.000

King (Fully Grown Wings) / Ban (Post-Purgatory, with ST) / Meliodas (Post-Purgatory, DM) - 470.000

Demon King (Possessing Meliodas, vessel not fully assimilated) - 500.000

Mael (Noon) / Escanor (The One) - 530.000

Escanor (The One Ultimate) - 690.000

Demon King (Possessing Zeldris, 1st stage) - 325.000

Demon King (Possessing Zeldris, 2nd stage) - 415.000

Demon King (Possessing Britannia) - 700.000

Demon King/Supreme Deity (50%) - 750.000-850.000

Meliodas (OG Magic) - 1.000.000

Demon King/Supreme Deity/Sacred Tree (Full Power, assuming the DK was only at 50% during the final fight) - 1.500.000

Chaos - 2.000.000+

Feel free to agree/disagree.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 7, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 7, 2020 ---

Noon Mael is massively overrated, with that kind of PL the dude would melt the whole demon race with his presence baring the DK during that one minute

Wouldn’t the dk possessing zeldris be stronger than land dk? The dk only went land form as a last resort when he was kicked out of zeldris body. Ideally an actual capable vessel such as meliodas or zeldris body would have been better suited for the dk which is why the dk waited for either brother to absorb the Ten Commandments instead taking over the land right away. Also zeldris body had time to integrate with the Ten Commandments which is why the dk was able to access more strength than when he was in meliodas body. The land Took in the Ten Commandments right away and didn’t have time to integrate fully imo.

merlin even mocked him by saying his “body is broken down” and how it was a spur of the moment substitute.

 

[Samael Morningstar]

IMO, it's something like this:

4C Mael - 235.000

The Sinner - 280.000 + (up to 300.000 with Crisis)

Induras of Favour - 285.000+ (can evolve)

Ludoshel (OG Body)/Elizabeth (OG Body) - 305.000

Zeldris (God+Ominous Nebula+2nd DM) - 310.000

Meliodas (2nd DM, Prime) - 330.000

Mael (Sun Grace, not Noon) - 330.000+ (up to maybe 400.000 just before Noon)

Meliodas (AM, Prime) - 370.000

King (Fully Grown Wings) / Ban (Post-Purgatory, with ST) / Meliodas (Post-Purgatory, DM) - 470.000

Demon King (Possessing Meliodas, vessel not fully assimilated) - 500.000

Mael (Noon) / Escanor (The One) - 530.000

Escanor (The One Ultimate) - 690.000

Demon King (Possessing Zeldris, 1st stage) - 325.000

Demon King (Possessing Zeldris, 2nd stage) - 415.000

Demon King (Possessing Britannia) - 700.000

Demon King/Supreme Deity (50%) - 750.000-850.000

Meliodas (OG Magic) - 1.000.000

Demon King/Supreme Deity/Sacred Tree (Full Power, assuming the DK was only at 50% during the final fight) - 1.500.000

Chaos - 2.000.000+

Feel free to agree/disagree.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 7, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 7, 2020 ---

Noon Mael is massively overrated, with that kind of PL the dude would melt the whole demon race with his presence baring the DK during that one minute

yeah why can't, I mean basically a late afternoon mael managed to melt ON, and vaporized all the clouds of Britannia just by his presence so I won't be surprised if he manages to melt the entire DC by his presence at Noon. Tho I won't be so sure of this but just by going by what shown

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 8, 2020 ---

Time to revive this thread given it has been a few months and the power-scaling has jumped....

Here are my new predictions, although they're vague and as we know, PL isn't everything. Lower end generally means if the individual doesn't use their sacred treasure or go all out.

Chaos - Immeasurable? Easily in the millions but inferior to the combined PL of the DK & SD supposedly.

SD & DK & Sacred Tree (100%) - 1,500,000-2,000.000

SD/DK at 50% (with Meliodas) - 750,000 - 1,000,000.

Noon Mael - 800,000 - 1,000,000

Noon Escanor - 600,000 - 750,000 (higher end being ultimate)

Ban - 500,000 - 600,000

Prime Meliodas - 400,000 - 500,000

Goddess Elizabeth - 400,000 - 500,000

King - 350,000 - 450,000.

Indura of Favour - 350,000 - 400,000

Ludoshel/Base Mael - 300,000 - 350,000

Original Demon - 300,000 - 341,000 (assuming he's the total of Cusack & Chandler's PL)

4C Mael - 200,000 - 250,000.

Sariel & Tarmiel - 200,000

Zeldris - 150,000 - 200,000.

Merlin - 100,000+

Now... dare to disagree with me, filthy mortals.

Noon Mael should be 700k-800k cause he isn't as strong as One ultimate Escanor. Also noon mael isn't nearly as strong as OG magic Mel

 

[Shadowlord123]

Wouldn’t the dk possessing zeldris be stronger than land dk? The dk only went land form as a last resort when he was kicked out of zeldris body. Ideally an actual capable vessel such as meliodas or zeldris body would have been better suited for the dk which is why the dk waited for either brother to absorb the Ten Commandments instead taking over the land right away. Also zeldris body had time to integrate with the Ten Commandments which is why the dk was able to access more strength than when he was in meliodas body. The land Took in the Ten Commandments right away and didn’t have time to integrate fully imo.

merlin even mocked him by saying his “body is broken down” and how it was a spur of the moment substitute.

Yeah, DK Zeldris in his final stage is stronger than the DK possessing Britannia. Wait, I see the confusion here. I rated DK Zel in his 1st and 2nd stage but not in his final stage. DK Zel in his final stage should be around 750.000-850.000 too. Old 50% DK is probably on the lower end of those numbers (750.000-780.000) and this DK is probably on the higher end (820.000-850.000) considering he has recovered his youth. The SD is probably in the middle or in the higher end too if I had to guess.

yeah why can't, I mean basically a late afternoon mael managed to melt ON, and vaporized all the clouds of Britannia just by his presence so I won't be surprised if he manages to melt the entire DC by his presence at Noon. Tho I won't be so sure of this but just by going by what shown

He melted Zel's sword which is not ON in itself. Plus, him melting the whole clan minus the DK implies that he would be able to melt Prime AM Mel with his mere presence, which tbh is a thing that it's impossible to see in my eyes. Maybe he would be able to melt some of the Ten Commandments but the top warriors of the clan (Zel, Mel and The Sinner)? I just don't see it.

 

[Samael Morningstar]

Yeah, DK Zeldris in his final stage is stronger than the DK possessing Britannia. Wait, I see the confusion here. I rated DK Zel in his 1st and 2nd stage but not in his final stage. DK Zel in his final stage should be around 750.000-850.000 too. Old 50% DK is probably on the lower end of those numbers (750.000-780.000) and this DK is probably on the higher end (820.000-850.000) considering he has recovered his youth. The SD is probably in the middle or in the higher end too if I had to guess.



He melted Zel's sword which is not ON in itself. Plus, him melting the whole clan minus the DK implies that he would be able to melt Prime AM Mel with his mere presence, which tbh is a thing that it's impossible to see in my eyes. Maybe he would be able to melt some of the Ten Commandments but the top warriors of the clan (Zel, Mel and The Sinner)? I just don't see it.

Dinner, mel, zel, and DK will survive, but should be able to easily beat the first three other than DK. But he did cancel ON tho with his presence

 

[Shadowlord123]

Dinner, mel, zel, and DK will survive, but should be able to easily beat the first three other than DK. But he did cancel ON tho with his presence

You must be hungry asf when typing this aren't you?

 

[Eiyuu Yami]

Chaos

Meliodas

Gods

Rest

 

[Jdmp53]

ELizabeth should be in range of 190k-210k right?..I mean ludo has 201k in human body vessel...and they were comparable when they had their OG body..

 

[OtakuFreak]

ELizabeth should be in range of 190k-210k right?..I mean ludo has 201k in human body vessel...and they were comparable when they had their OG body..

Ludoshel was in a vessel which restricts his power considerably. Despite his PL being higher than Cusack's, he is unable to hurt him in human form.

Assuming the original demon is the combined PL of Cusack/Chandler, then Ludoshel showed us he was relatively capable of taking on the 341,000 PL pony despite being unable to use his grace. He's probably around this PL and maybe a maximum of 400,000.

I think Elizabeth's overall PL is higher since her magic is insane, but they're pretty comparable in fighting skills I assume, from what we have seen.

Maybe Elizabeth is approximately 200,000 PL in her human body, given Ludoshel is, but as a Goddess I think she could easily surpass 400,000.

 

[Shadowlord123]

Yeah, no way Ludo is 201K in his OG Body, even if we assume he couldn't use that full 201K in his human body. Ludo initially overwhelmed the Sinner, and while I don't think the Sinner's PL was as high as 341K, it seems impossible to believe that a fusion between two 170K characters would result in something that is below 200K, so Ludo has to be much higher than that in his OG Body. Around 300K or a little more would me my guess, but with Nakaba you never know. PL's have stopped making sense since a long time now.