Discussion Evolution

[Demonspeed]

I have been thinking about the consequences of V's choices and a few other things lately:

Spoiler

I have never been one of the "Towerborns can defeat Irregulars" guys but doesn't all of this imply that some Towerborns will eventually be born with the potential to reach the level of Irregulars or counter them?

If that's true then the way I see this, Adori and Enne aren't such people. They are too old, we already know their status and no Towerborns can defeat a Family Head in a fight ATM. It's about the new generation.

It reminded me of Traumerei's experiments and his attempts to control Humans. In the Yasratcha flashback, they speculated that Wang Wang's ability to not be controlled was like an answer of nature to counter Traumerei's control(I don't remember the details or the chapter).

It could mean that Yama for example, who is the Slayer with Traumerei as target is such a person. He could be something like the Tower's answer to counter Traumerei specifically?

Other characters I can think of who would fit are the LPB Twins. Especially Shilial since she didn't need additional supplements to adapt to the Thread Snake and has a special Anima.

Possibly Yuri who is considered the most talented Ha, young and is far from her peak. A few Regulars among Baam's friends and some unknown etc.

Anyway, even if you don't believe that the ones I listed have such potential, do you believe that such a person will eventually be born?

 

[akio18]

There are beings in the tower who are stronger than some irregulars. The strongest possibly is Macseth, although it has not been stated if he is tower born or not. Others include Baek Ryun, the most talented wave controller in the tower although his potential could be higher than his ranking, I mean the guy was a hikikomori in a forest before Urek came. Molic is a dangerous tower born enough for Zahard to handle him personally, enne is sealed and a was active comparable to Yuris lifespan. An unknown quantity is our favorite hikikomori Repellista, who isn't even a regular but wields the Opera and I bet she didn't get it by favoritism. Repellista is talented enough to surpass Tu Perie but considering she's a bum that will never happen. Rak is a giant discussion theme. In s1 is stated that he lived someplace with many turtles, and yet he can read without the aid of a pocket. Why? Why would Rak be literate in mexes language? Siu has a lot in store for us, but for a regular to defeat a high ranker, ancient or not puts him as a towerborn on an a colision course with irregulars.

 

[King Dryst]

I have never been one of the "Towerborns can defeat Irregulars" guys

Considering recent events, why? I want to consider myself in that boat too, but SIU is definitely hacking away at the Irregulars this season.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

I have never been one of the "Towerborns can defeat Irregulars" guys but doesn't all of this imply that some Towerborns will eventually be born with the potential to reach the level of Irregulars or counter them?

I am in the same boat but have we ever seen a Towerborn doing revolution? I think not. When I was reading ToG at my earliest days, GoG mentioned Jahad kids did revs but I thought that was mistranslation. Again, seeing the lore on the lore of V chapter, I think they did. We have seen towerborns use their own named moves for eg, white, Karaka, yuri. We saw until bam found himself, he was using other people moves. So then the question begs did they do their revolution or they know who they are. Interestingly so far, only Ran use mas moves. So far, we haven't seen any regular use their name moves as far as I recall. So do they do only revolution after they become ranker? Is this one of the privileges they get after going to the top of the tower?

If that's true then the way I see this, Adori and Enne aren't such people. They are too old, we already know their status and no Towerborns can defeat a Family Head in a fight ATM. It's about the new generation.

SIU is such a sly to release that top 15 rankings. Well I can say at the moment, Anne, Adori or even Mirchea cannot defeat FLs and the king. But it can change the moment they join team bam. We have seen (growth or SIU obsession) with Khun and Rak. I don't believe Khun and Rak would have been this strong if bam never met them in FoT. Esp Khun he would be a HR just above ascensio, playing some schemes. They won't have such growth.

It reminded me of Traumerei's experiments and his attempts to control Humans. In the Yasratcha flashback, they speculated that Wang Wang's ability to not be controlled was like an answer of nature to counter Traumerei's control(I don't remember the details or the chapter).

It could mean that Yama for example, who is the Slayer with Traumerei as target is such a person. He could be something like the Tower's answer to counter Traumerei specifically?

It doesn't matter if some towerborns can counter FLs. They are insignificant for FLs at the moment. One disconnection all it takes to kill yama with his ancient, akrinark.

Anyway, even if you don't believe that the ones I listed have such potential, do you believe that such a person will eventually be born?

While I don't think any Towerborn will be born to defeat FLs, they are already born. In a sense, admins too are towerborns, they can defeat them. But if I have to say some towerborns will defeat FLs and the king in some areas not in fight, like Ja will be better king than Jahad in future. Khun might get his wish fulfilled to beat Edahn in LB. There's also that theory that giant ancient, (who could be like JB and Rak(Luffy) in OP) might be able to defeat some FLs. We don't know why J slaughtered ancients

 

[King Dryst]

Other characters I can think of who would fit are the LPB Twins. Especially Shilial since she didn't need additional supplements to adapt to the Thread Snake and has a special Anima.

Not within the time frame where we would ever find out. They're only Regulars, and not likely to ever be close enough to Baam to benefit from the things that happen around him the way Koon and Rak are (unfortunately) able to.

 

[kkck]

I have been thinking about the consequences of V's choices and a few other things lately:

Spoiler

I have never been one of the "Towerborns can defeat Irregulars" guys but doesn't all of this imply that some Towerborns will eventually be born with the potential to reach the level of Irregulars or counter them?

If that's true then the way I see this, Adori and Enne aren't such people. They are too old, we already know their status and no Towerborns can defeat a Family Head in a fight ATM. It's about the new generation.

It reminded me of Traumerei's experiments and his attempts to control Humans. In the Yasratcha flashback, they speculated that Wang Wang's ability to not be controlled was like an answer of nature to counter Traumerei's control(I don't remember the details or the chapter).

It could mean that Yama for example, who is the Slayer with Traumerei as target is such a person. He could be something like the Tower's answer to counter Traumerei specifically?

Other characters I can think of who would fit are the LPB Twins. Especially Shilial since she didn't need additional supplements to adapt to the Thread Snake and has a special Anima.

Possibly Yuri who is considered the most talented Ha, young and is far from her peak. A few Regulars among Baam's friends and some unknown etc.

Anyway, even if you don't believe that the ones I listed have such potential, do you believe that such a person will eventually be born?

If we go by the initial framing given in the series my answer would be no. What held the family head's power over time was their supreme skill in their areas paired with immortality contracts. With V and Arlen the context we had was that Arlen couldn't be killed, even by herself... Whereas V killed himself. But in recent chapters it's clear there are holes in this framing. Traumerei managed to kill Gustang and gustang revived thanks to the balance. Of course it's unclear if gustang's death would have stuck otherwise.

Outside of that there's the question of whether the immortality contract protects the family heads. Even if family heads can kill each other the most likely scenario is that the immortality contract they have does hold up to towerborn folk. If only because even enkido has a contract that prevents towerborn folk from killing him.

A final thing which irregulars lord over towerborn is shinwonryu. Which grants an overall pretty potent boost to the user along with something like traumerei's all creature and maybe gustang's library...

I don't think age is a much of a factor here. The time at which V released the blue flame on the tower was early in their climb... The effects of that blue flame have probably been active since. I don't think it's impossible for the tower to produce a being that can match the skill and power of the irregulars but if you factor transcendental beings being given immortality contracts and shinwonryu then it becomes a pretty unbridgeable gap unless the rules themselves change. Which thinking about it could be the role bam is meant to play going forward rather than merely defeating the great warriors.

 

[Demonspeed]

There are beings in the tower who are stronger than some irregulars. The strongest possibly is Macseth, although it has not been stated if he is tower born or not. Others include Baek Ryun, the most talented wave controller in the tower although his potential could be higher than his ranking, I mean the guy was a hikikomori in a forest before Urek came. Molic is a dangerous tower born enough for Zahard to handle him personally, enne is sealed and a was active comparable to Yuris lifespan. An unknown quantity is our favorite hikikomori Repellista, who isn't even a regular but wields the Opera and I bet she didn't get it by favoritism. Repellista is talented enough to surpass Tu Perie but considering she's a bum that will never happen. Rak is a giant discussion theme. In s1 is stated that he lived someplace with many turtles, and yet he can read without the aid of a pocket. Why? Why would Rak be literate in mexes language? Siu has a lot in store for us, but for a regular to defeat a high ranker, ancient or not puts him as a towerborn on an a colision course with irregulars.

All these guys are Towerborns.

Considering recent events, why? I want to consider myself in that boat too, but SIU is definitely hacking away at the Irregulars this season.

Because I still don't see anyone among the current strongest Towerborns able to do this. That's why the evolution mentioned in this chapter caught my eye.

As for the LPB Twins, I don't believe they'll be allies but I am expecting a timeskip sooner or later. Plus, they are tied to the Maschenny and Maria subplot. They can become long term antagonists. It's not about relevance anyway.

I am in the same boat but have we ever seen a Towerborn doing revolution? I think not. When I was reading ToG at my earliest days, GoG mentioned Jahad kids did revs but I thought that was mistranslation. Again, seeing the lore on the lore of V chapter, I think they did. We have seen towerborns use their own named moves for eg, white, Karaka, yuri. We saw until bam found himself, he was using other people moves. So then the question begs did they do their revolution or they know who they are. Interestingly so far, only Ran use mas moves. So far, we haven't seen any regular use their name moves as far as I recall. So do they do only revolution after they become ranker? Is this one of the privileges they get after going to the top of the tower?

Revolution is Irregular exclusive. But Thor said that people from the Tower will benefit from evolution thanks to that Revolution(which I guess is V's decision to share it with everyone after his awakening).

Shinsoo Techniques existed before Zahard's climb. What they didn't have were weapons.

SIU is such a sly to release that top 15 rankings. Well I can say at the moment, Anne, Adori or even Mirchea cannot defeat FLs and the king. But it can change the moment they join team bam. We have seen (growth or SIU obsession) with Khun and Rak. I don't believe Khun and Rak would have been this strong if bam never met them in FoT. Esp Khun he would be a HR just above ascensio, playing some schemes. They won't have such growth.

It's very unlikely that these guys will join Baam to begin with. Maybe Enne and Luslec is kind of an ally, but SIU is definitely going to focus on the new generation more.


It doesn't matter if some towerborns can counter FLs. They are insignificant for FLs at the moment. One disconnection all it takes to kill yama with his ancient, akrinark.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 31, 2024, Original Post Date: Jul 31, 2024 ---

In the bold, yeah the one who talk about that is akrinak when akrinak traps the entire LPB army on it ability and only wang wang that can surpass akrinak's ability.

On topic:
If Z and FH is consider as transcentdent being and archive it by climbing tower it can be the forgotten ones too (V and Arlene) is transcentdent being, and I think it can be Z and FH make unbalance condition in tower by indirect get rid of V (suicide) and arlene (run away to outside), then the tower invites enryu, phanta, urek, and baam.

I think it can be by the later irregular action's on the tower, it tried to make the inner condition of tower balance again even before the tower invites the later irregular the tower still tried balanced inner condition of tower because Z and FH make it unbalance by their sins for example wang wang's case (tower tried balance traum experiment to control "human"), traum now can control human too by mix it with his shinheuh, then make that "human" can be revived by him (so traum can stop "human dies" to return to shinshu and that is his current sin that make tower unbalance) or aria's immortality spell experiment (that baam can be cure/dispel) and it can be by invites enryu, phanta, urek, and baam that their action such counter to unbalance condition can be more countered so I think there is a chance that yeah some towerborn can countered some Z and FH as they are sinner's by their doing that make inner condition of tower unbalance to make the inner condition of tower balance again.

The FHs themselves don't make things fair for Towerborns. Alumik said before that the "Tower only accepts what it needs". If the Tower is trying to balance things, it shouldn't be via the Irregulars but more of what it has inside. Irregulars can do things that Regulars can't.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 31, 2024 ---

If we go by the initial framing given in the series my answer would be no. What held the family head's power over time was their supreme skill in their areas paired with immortality contracts. With V and Arlen the context we had was that Arlen couldn't be killed, even by herself... Whereas V killed himself. But in recent chapters it's clear there are holes in this framing. Traumerei managed to kill Gustang and gustang revived thanks to the balance. Of course it's unclear if gustang's death would have stuck otherwise.

Outside of that there's the question of whether the immortality contract protects the family heads. Even if family heads can kill each other the most likely scenario is that the immortality contract they have does hold up to towerborn folk. If only because even enkido has a contract that prevents towerborn folk from killing him.

A final thing which irregulars lord over towerborn is shinwonryu. Which grants an overall pretty potent boost to the user along with something like traumerei's all creature and maybe gustang's library...

I don't think age is a much of a factor here. The time at which V released the blue flame on the tower was early in their climb... The effects of that blue flame have probably been active since. I don't think it's impossible for the tower to produce a being that can match the skill and power of the irregulars but if you factor transcendental beings being given immortality contracts and shinwonryu then it becomes a pretty unbridgeable gap unless the rules themselves change. Which thinking about it could be the role bam is meant to play going forward rather than merely defeating the great warriors.

I think age matters because theoretically, beings in the Tower will get stronger over time if they keep evolving that way. Which would make the previous generation stronger than the latter overall? A genius like Adori was born and she is comparable to Enne in terms of talent.

Shinwonryu is a great asset but it's not an instant win button. It's implied that Urek doesn't even have it and he is the 2nd strongest Irregular at worst (among those in the Tower right now).

 

[King Dryst]

As for the LPB Twins, I don't believe they'll be allies but I am expecting a timeskip sooner or later. Plus, they are tied to the Maschenny and Maria subplot. They can become long term antagonists. It's not about relevance anyway.

I doubt even more that they'll be antagonists. Both of them know that Baam can make sport of High Rankers (his humiliating performance as of these most recent chapters notwithstanding) and have even seen him doing it. Even Lilial doesn't seem dumb enough to want to make an enemy of that. I just don't think they're going to become his companions either, at least not on a level closer than people like Ran and Novick.