Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[Seven777]

Which never happened. Even if Natsu was forced to make the choice between dragon and demon, he probably wouldn't choose to be a demon anyways. The only way for END's power to activate to a noticeable point was for Natsu to be emotional.

The full potential of FDK should be comparable to an attack from Igneel. Not every spell has the same potential, so you're going to have to convince me that every spell can reach Igneel level.

POF doesn't give Natsu infinite MP. When Natsu fought Zeref, he was still using a finite amount of MP. The MP was able to generate FDK flames hot enough to burn time and magic, but it was still a finite amount of MP. I believe I've pointed this out before, but Ignia's flames were probably just as hot. We know this because they too burned Natsu's hands, and the temperatures required to burn Natsu's hands was at the temperatures required to burn Zeref's time magic. They also wiped out Mercphobia's MP for the foreseeable future, which is par for the course for what we should expect from something on the level of savage flames.

Natsu's not getting a power-up from someone else. Nor is what he is doing really similar to Fairy Sphere, which requires a bunch of people to literally link hands and share their magic. What Natsu is doing is simply tapping into POF. Even if you say that he was tapping into the guild's bonds and whatnot, this is still just POF. POF generally involves "connecting hearts" with your friends and loved ones, and getting a power-up from that.

Spoiler

I didn't say it did, and sure, Natsu wouldn't choose demon.
It's not the only way, it's just the most likely way.

Alright, there are currently 6 characters in the manga that all use different magic that are Igneel level, 7 if you rank FH Zeref around there. There is also Igneel's physical attacks that have absolutely no flames, and they are Igneel level. If a purely physical attack can reach Igneel level, I don't see why normal spells can't.

Have you? Not to me as far as I can recall. Doesn't matter either way, that power was equivalent to magic power granted by an Acno tier, give that level of power to start of the series Natsu and he still decimates all easily, including his Alvarez self. The power Ignia gave Natsu was greater than all of team Natsu combined, so start of the story Natsu would have power greater than the entirety of team Natsu, minus current Natsu, plus start of series Natsu.

You don't know that, there is no explanation for what Natsu did other than him turning the guilds bonds into flames and it being savagely emotional. We have no idea what circumstances are required for him to do that feat. For all we know he can only harness the guilds power in the guild hall. For all we know he can only do it when faced with Fairy Heart, the guilds weapon. For all we know he can only do it when he has members of the guild thinking of him. etc, etc. What we do know is that it is not Natsu's baseline strength, it's a power up, a powerup that dwarfs Dragon Force, END, FDKM and Igneel's power combined.

 

[Axiomus]

I didn't say it did, and sure, Natsu wouldn't choose demon.
It's not the only way, it's just the most likely way.

Alright, there are currently 6 characters in the manga that all use different magic that are Igneel level, 7 if you rank FH Zeref around there. There is also Igneel's physical attacks that have absolutely no flames, and they are Igneel level. If a purely physical attack can reach Igneel level, I don't see why normal spells can't.

Have you? Not to me as far as I can recall. Doesn't matter either way, that power was equivalent to magic power granted by an Acno tier, give that level of power to start of the series Natsu and he still decimates all easily, including his Alvarez self. The power Ignia gave Natsu was greater than all of team Natsu combined, so start of the story Natsu would have power greater than the entirety of team Natsu, minus current Natsu, plus start of series Natsu.

You don't know that, there is no explanation for what Natsu did other than him turning the guilds bonds into flames and it being savagely emotional. We have no idea what circumstances are required for him to do that feat. For all we know he can only harness the guilds power in the guild hall. For all we know he can only do it when faced with Fairy Heart, the guilds weapon. For all we know he can only do it when he has members of the guild thinking of him. etc, etc. What we do know is that it is not Natsu's baseline strength, it's a power up, a powerup that dwarfs Dragon Force, END, FDKM and Igneel's power combined.

Natsu being in a rage was the only time we saw END's power do anything. Sure, it's possible that if he goes into his heart and chooses the demon seed, he might be able to use END's power while he's emotionless. I tend to think the seed will just send him into a rage, because of the way Porlyusica described it. Either way, it's not something I think too much about.

I don't understand what you're trying to say with Igneel's physical strength. Igneel's strength comes from his dragon body, enhanced by his magic power. If you're arguing that Igneel's physical attacks are as strong as his fire, I simply disagree. But more importantly, it's missing the point. No version of Natsu has Igneel's level of physical strength. Natsu didn't beat Zeref by out-muscling him. He beat Zeref by generating flames hot enough to burn away his magic. My argument is that those flames were FDK flames. Yes, Natsu needs to have major POF or be boosted by an God Dragon in order to make FDK flames that strong. That's true. My argument is that using FDK with God Dragon levels of MP is pretty much the way it was meant to be used in the first place.

Oh, I don't mean to imply that POF boosts from before was as powerful as the POF boost when he fought Zeref. I'm just saying it's POF. Turning your bonds into power and being savagely emotional is pretty much how POF operates. Just because POF granted Natsu a huge boost doesn't mean it's not still POF. I don't really see the point of assuming a bunch of conditions for it either. I just assume that it's Natsu POF at it's strongest.

 

[Seven777]

Natsu being in a rage was the only time we saw END's power do anything. Sure, it's possible that if he goes into his heart and chooses the demon seed, he might be able to use END's power while he's emotionless. I tend to think the seed will just send him into a rage, because of the way Porlyusica described it. Either way, it's not something I think too much about.

I don't understand what you're trying to say with Igneel's physical strength. Igneel's strength comes from his dragon body, enhanced by his magic power. If you're arguing that Igneel's physical attacks are as strong as his fire, I simply disagree. But more importantly, it's missing the point. No version of Natsu has Igneel's level of physical strength. Natsu didn't beat Zeref by out-muscling him. He beat Zeref by generating flames hot enough to burn away his magic. My argument is that those flames were FDK flames. Yes, Natsu needs to have major POF or be boosted by an God Dragon in order to make FDK flames that strong. That's true. My argument is that using FDK with God Dragon levels of MP is pretty much the way it was meant to be used in the first place.

Oh, I don't mean to imply that POF boosts from before was as powerful as the POF boost when he fought Zeref. I'm just saying it's POF. Turning your bonds into power and being savagely emotional is pretty much how POF operates. Just because POF granted Natsu a huge boost doesn't mean it's not still POF. I don't really see the point of assuming a bunch of conditions for it either. I just assume that it's Natsu POF at it's strongest.

Could be.

Igneel's physical attacks ripped of Acnologia's arm, I find it highly unlike his fire is above that. As for his dragon body, unless you believe Zirconis and every other dragon has physical power on par with Igneel, it's his enormous power that makes Igneel's strength what it is. Point is, god tier fighters have god tier strength, it's their baseline power that makes them powerful, not the type of magic they're using, and the same is true for Savage Natsu.

How PoF works is as much a mystery as Savage Emotions, so I disagree on it simply being "how PoF operates". You can call Savage Flames PoF if you like, but that doesn't really change my main point, it's an outside powerup that's out of Natsu's control.
As for me assuming a bunch of conditions, I mention them because it's the same thing you're doing. You're assuming the way PoF operates and what it can do, the reality is when the chips are down, PoF doesn't always help, when characters are incredibly emotional it doesn't always grant power, we have no idea what the requirements are for PoF to work, or what kind of power it will provide when it does. Me assuming a bunch of random conditions is more logical than you assuming there are none given the colossal inconsistency in it's application.

 

[Biri Biri]

1. I never claimed Gildarts was serious against Historia Serena. My claim of Serena = Gildarts was from portrayal, Serena
2. Historia Serena still tussled with Gildarts for a while and managed to give him some injuries. While Kyria failed to put even a scratch on Laxus
3. As for Gildarts testing Natsu, it was clearly different. Natsu still couldn't do jackshit to casual Gildarts, where he didn't even move an inch from his spot until the last moment. He actually battled with Serena and they matched in physical combat. So much force emanated from their clash that even Natsu and Gray were pushed back. Surely you should be able to see the difference.
4. All this was by Historia Serena, if his Historia could do all this, why should I suspect that his full power couldn't be a threat to serious Gildarts?

You may say this isn't conclusive evidence to put Serena on Gildarts tier, but you don't have conclusive evidence to put him below as well. Him no diffing Jura + 3 mages tiers above him at least proves that he's far above the average Spriggan in STATS (in before you respond, note the key word stats here. Jura is Makarov tier, and Makarov would be above half the Spriggans in stats). I use this, as was as Gildarts statements to assess he would be Gildarts tier at full power

I guess that's the fundamental difference between our opinions then. I tend to place greater stock on feats.

I also think the characters' mentality matters in a fight more than I've seen people bringing it up. If you read back the fight again, Gildarts was constantly drawn by Mashima to sport a smug smirk across his face while he was tussling with historia Serena.

Spoiler

Until Gildarts finally decided to stop playing around and used Itten to send Serena flying, that smirk didn't leave his face once. And as we can see in the panels, Natsu and Gray were never pushed back. Wendy and Charle, however were. Gildarts also didn't sustain any injury that you speak of. Unless you call specks of dust/dirt as an injury, Gildarts look unaffected while barely trying. Mashima gave a warm-up session for Gildarts before his real fight with August. Take a look at the fight with August, and how different Gildarts behaved throughout. He came flying at August and threw the kitchen sink at him. He fought August with the desperation of protecting Cana. He fought Serena while complaining that he was hungry lol

Spoiler

Serious Gildarts beat Historia Serena with one hit. Serious Gildarts would probably beat prime Serena with medium difficulty at most. POF Gildarts that fought August would still beat prime Serena with one hit.

 

[WoWfan]

Actually we saw that Historia GS did draw some blood from Gildarts by his lips in when he was about to send GS flying

 

[Ramen]

God Serena is mad overrated.

"poTrAyAl"

 

[WoWfan]

I still would like to know what the 3 other elements though, which would show more of the character's capabilities

 

[Kenneth Latorre]

God Serena is mad overrated.

"poTrAyAl"

He’s not overrated, he just fought the worst possible opponent. Of course anyone is gonna look like fodder to the strongest character in the original series.

it doesn’t help that his fight later on was with fucking Gildarts Of all people, while he was nerfed.

 

[Ramen]

He’s not overrated, he just fought the worst possible opponent. Of course anyone is gonna look like fodder to the strongest character in the original series.

it doesn’t help that his fight later on was with fucking Gildarts Of all people, while he was nerfed.

That doesn't mean he's not overrated. People saying Gildarts wouldn't stand a chance and GS is "special" spriggan is overrating him.

GS isn't a top 5 Spriggan.

Welp, him getting terrible writing sucks but it's what happened.

 

[Axiomus]

Could be.

Igneel's physical attacks ripped of Acnologia's arm, I find it highly unlike his fire is above that. As for his dragon body, unless you believe Zirconis and every other dragon has physical power on par with Igneel, it's his enormous power that makes Igneel's strength what it is. Point is, god tier fighters have god tier strength, it's their baseline power that makes them powerful, not the type of magic they're using, and the same is true for Savage Natsu.

How PoF works is as much a mystery as Savage Emotions, so I disagree on it simply being "how PoF operates". You can call Savage Flames PoF if you like, but that doesn't really change my main point, it's an outside powerup that's out of Natsu's control.
As for me assuming a bunch of conditions, I mention them because it's the same thing you're doing. You're assuming the way PoF operates and what it can do, the reality is when the chips are down, PoF doesn't always help, when characters are incredibly emotional it doesn't always grant power, we have no idea what the requirements are for PoF to work, or what kind of power it will provide when it does. Me assuming a bunch of random conditions is more logical than you assuming there are none given the colossal inconsistency in it's application.

I don't believe that all dragons are equally physically strong, no. Their MP probably enhances their physical strength the same way humans do. I do believe, however, that Igneel's strongest attacks are with his flames. Same way Natsu's strongest attacks are with his flames. Acnologia was immune to magic so most of Igneel's fire was reduced in effectiveness. The type of magic makes a difference. Against Aldoron, Natsu was stronger with his hybrid fire than he is with pure FDK, and he was stronger with FDK than he was with regular fire DS attacks.

Is POF really such a mystery? Characters get stronger the more emotional they are. Sometimes their "hearts connect", and they begin hearing the voices of their loved ones. This happened with Natsu against Zero, all the dragon slayers in the time rift, with Erza against Azuma. I believe we also saw this in action when Natsu fought Aldoron, because Lucy all of a sudden started sensing Natsu. This, in a nutshell, is how we've seen POF operate throughout the series. I mean, it's called "power of emotion" and "Flames of Savage emotions" is a power that involves emotions.... I don't claim to know every detail about POF (though I really don't think it's that complicated either, and that we can tell more or less when it's at play). I'm just saying that it's different from eating something for a powerup.

 

[grey matter]

I guess that's the fundamental difference between our opinions then. I tend to place greater stock on feats.

I also think the characters' mentality matters in a fight more than I've seen people bringing it up. If you read back the fight again, Gildarts was constantly drawn by Mashima to sport a smug smirk across his face while he was tussling with historia Serena.

Spoiler

Until Gildarts finally decided to stop playing around and used Itten to send Serena flying, that smirk didn't leave his face once. And as we can see in the panels, Natsu and Gray were never pushed back. Wendy and Charle, however were. Gildarts also didn't sustain any injury that you speak of. Unless you call specks of dust/dirt as an injury, Gildarts look unaffected while barely trying. Mashima gave a warm-up session for Gildarts before his real fight with August. Take a look at the fight with August, and how different Gildarts behaved throughout. He came flying at August and threw the kitchen sink at him. He fought August with the desperation of protecting Cana. He fought Serena while complaining that he was hungry lol

Spoiler

Serious Gildarts beat Historia Serena with one hit. Serious Gildarts would probably beat prime Serena with medium difficulty at most. POF Gildarts that fought August would still beat prime Serena with one hit.

I go by portrayal/hype in absence of feats. If there are feats that CONTRADICT the hype/portrayal/statements, I'll gladly take the feats over them. Fact is, we never got full power Serena against Gildarts. He was severely nerfed, and still managed to hold his own for a while. He also briefly overwhelmed team Natsu, but that is similar to the way Ajeel overwhelmed team Natsu and we know Ajeel would've got rekt if they were serious. Still, the fact that he managed this all
Gildarts used his 2nd strongest attack to defeat Historia Serena, that's his finishing move. He did the same against Bluenote. Historia Serena vs Gildarts was closer to Gildarts vs Bluenote (done off screen), than to a straight up one shot. Yea, he did get some minor injuries lol, it wasn't just some dust.

Why are you bringing August vs Gildarts lol. If it's to argue seriousness, I already agree Gildarts was way more serious against August. Nobody even contested this. If your argument is that, if Gildarts had the same seriousness, he would've finished the fight sooner, I'll agree to that also (tho if you're arguing he could've straight up one shot from the start, I disagree. Opportunities for those moves need to present itself,, there is a reason character never go for their finishing moves the moment a fight starts). I don't think this contradict anything I say though.

Again, even if you don't want to take portrayal seriously; consider Jura + GOI (who are tiers above Jura) getting no diff'd by Serena in his base, and again in his DS mode.
You may argue that other Spriggans could do the same as Serena did as well. But remember, Serena did this with raw power, not with some cheat hax. But when their broken haxes. If we go by stats, I doubt half the Spriggans can even beat Jura, who's Makarov tier (who, while weakened, from Natsu's own words, needed FDK punch from x793 Natsu to defeat. x792 FDK punch defeated Jacob and it would defeat half the Spriggans as well)
i.e, for eg, restrict timestop and see how Dimaria fares against Jura.
This shows us that Serena is a beast in raw stats. Again, you may argue "this doesn't prove he's Gildarts tier in stats" , and I have no way of proving so. But the fact that he no diff'd them purely by his raw stats does work in my favour, when you consider the portrayal as well (I'd argue portrayal is important as well, because it's necessary to compare most characters in the series since they don't have feats that allow direct comparison. Ignoring it all together would make power scaling impossible).

Let me ask you this. What feat does Serena have, that shows him in a shitty way? Him getting one shot by Acno, who can one shot anyone in the Alverass arc? When he one shotted Serena, not even August, arguably the strongest character apart from Acno and FH Zeref, could even react to it. He looked straight while Acno ploughed through Serena and reached like 50m behind him
Him going down to one of Gildarts strongest move, while being severely nerfed?

 

[Ramen]

If we go by stats, I doubt half the Spriggans can even beat Jura,

What does this even mean? In a straight up fist-fight? That's how far you have to go to prove GS and his legitimacy?

Again, you may argue "this doesn't prove he's Gildarts tier in stats" , and I have no way of proving so. But the fact that he no diff'd them purely by his raw stats does work in my favour, when you consider the portrayal as well (I'd argue portrayal is important as well, because it's necessary to compare most characters in the series since they don't have feats that allow direct comparison. Ignoring it all together would make power scaling impossible).

What does stats have to do with anything? Stats =/= strength.

Let me ask you this. What feat does Serena have, that shows him in a shitty way?

He doesn't have any special feats. Nor does he have any special portrayal. He's average.

Him going down to one of Gildarts strongest move, while being severely nerfed?

Gildarts only has like 3 named attacks so I could easily say it's his weakest. Actually from what we saw, it is his weakest.

I go by portrayal/hype in absence of feats. If there are feats that CONTRADICT the hype/portrayal/statements, I'll gladly take the feats over them. Fact is, we never got full power Serena against Gildarts.

But you make assumptions. There is not hype or portrayal for him other than being a spriggan He didn't even have special hype. Even Gajeel was like meh, I'll take him on.

He also briefly overwhelmed team Natsu

No he didn't. He just caught them off guard. Ajeel overwhelmed them

Still, the fact that he managed this all
Gildarts used his 2nd strongest attack to defeat Historia Serena, that's his finishing move.

Prove this. Prove it.

Yea, he did get some minor injuries lol, it wasn't just some dust.

One bloody lip.

(who, while weakened, from Natsu's own words, needed FDK punch from x793 Natsu to defeat. x792 FDK punch defeated Jacob and it would defeat half the Spriggans as well)

Actually Natsu never said he needed a FDK punch. Clearly it was overkill. He wanted to end the fight quickly.

Serena did this with raw power, not with some cheat hax.

Nobody would need hax to solo them. Unless their magic itself is hax.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 24, 2020 ---

God Serena at best is the 6th strongest spriggan. You can make the argument that he's 7th too.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2020 ---

1) August
2) Irene
3) Larcade
4) Dimaria
5) Invel
6) Bloodman
7) God Serena
8) Wahl
9) Ajeel
10) Brandish
11) Neinhart
12) Jacob

 

[Seven777]

I don't believe that all dragons are equally physically strong, no. Their MP probably enhances their physical strength the same way humans do. I do believe, however, that Igneel's strongest attacks are with his flames. Same way Natsu's strongest attacks are with his flames. Acnologia was immune to magic so most of Igneel's fire was reduced in effectiveness. The type of magic makes a difference. Against Aldoron, Natsu was stronger with his hybrid fire than he is with pure FDK, and he was stronger with FDK than he was with regular fire DS attacks.

Is POF really such a mystery? Characters get stronger the more emotional they are. Sometimes their "hearts connect", and they begin hearing the voices of their loved ones. This happened with Natsu against Zero, all the dragon slayers in the time rift, with Erza against Azuma. I believe we also saw this in action when Natsu fought Aldoron, because Lucy all of a sudden started sensing Natsu. This, in a nutshell, is how we've seen POF operate throughout the series. I mean, it's called "power of emotion" and "Flames of Savage emotions" is a power that involves emotions.... I don't claim to know every detail about POF (though I really don't think it's that complicated either, and that we can tell more or less when it's at play). I'm just saying that it's different from eating something for a powerup.

And that's exactly why I don't think Igneel's fire is significantly above his physical attacks, Igneel fought Acno entirely without magic, that means if Igneel's fire is stronger he is overwhelmingly more powerful offensively than Acnologia, though I guess you could say Acno's Dragon Slaying magic killed him in the first place. But sure Igneel's fire prob is the greater attack, but that still doesn't change my overall point, god tiers are god tiers because of their baseline strength, not the type of magic they use, Igneel would still be Acno tier if he were using water dragon magic or whatever, just like Merc and the other Dragon Gods are.
And sure, certain magic is stronger than other magic, I've never disagreed with this, that doesn't put FDK above END though.

Yes, it's effects are entirely unknown, as is how it works. PoF could increase offense, it could increase defense, it could grant physical strength, it could boost magic power, it could simply refill your magic gauge, we have no idea what it does or at what point it even activates. Was Natsu PoF against Jellal after he killed SImon? He certainly should have been, and yet it seemed like it was Etherion and Dragon Force doing the work, not a magic power buff or a defensive buff or whatever it is you think PoF does. Same with Erza vs Azuma, was it PoF? Or did Tenrou literally grant it's strength to her? Same with Savage Natsu using guild flames.
So you can say "oh it's just emotion, nothing complicated about it" but I disagree, emphatically, because other characters don't get nearly the same kind of power, and even when it's the same character, the power they get is far from consistent. Warrod, a supposedly powerful wizard, begging in his heart to see Mavis again and protect the guild, couldn't muster the strength to even provide a challenge to God Serena. Erza against Jellal, after Simon died saving her and Natsu, couldn't muster the strength to battle Jellal. Jellal vs Midnight, couldn't get up to save literally the only person who mattered to him. Even Natsu against Rogue, after Rogue killed her right in front of his very eyes, even when he declared, literally crying, that he'd protect Lucy's future, he couldn't muster the strength to defeat Rogue.

This kind of inconsistency is why I generally never consider PoF in power ranking, it's power is no different than luckily finding an element you can eat, in fact it's actually far less reliable.

 

[Raven]

DF Natsu
POF Natsu
FDKM Natsu
END
LDM Natsu
God flame mode Natsu

 

[Ramen]

POF Natsu

I wouldn't consider this a mode tbh.

God flame mode Natsu

What is this? Ignia?

 

[Raven]

I wouldn't consider this a mode tbh.



What is this? Ignia?

It's not a mode but Mashima treat it as one. We never saw Natsu tap into DF Natsu with POF boost for example

Zancrow's flame.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 24, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 24, 2020 ---

I don't think Igniatsu flame will appear again so i didn't add it in my list

 

[Ramen]

It's not a mode but Mashima treat it as one. We never saw Natsu tap into DF Natsu with POF boost for example

Yea we have. Against Zeref.

Zancrow's flame.

Ah. But that's irrelevant now.

 

[Raven]

Yea we have. Against Zeref.

Nope, He first fought Zeref with his DF then he run out of magic, with pof applied he should have unlimited magic power hence it wasn't applied. It was heavily applied when Natsu was in base the second time.

Ah. But that's irrelevant now.

Nope, He first fought Zeref with his DF then he run out of magic, with pof applied he should have unlimited magic power hence it wasn't applied. It was heavily applied when Natsu was in base the second time.

It's relevant to me since i like it

 

[Ramen]

Nope, He first fought Zeref with his DF then he run out of magic, with pof applied he should have unlimited magic power hence it wasn't applied. It was heavily applied when Natsu was in base the second time.

Nowhere does it say PoF has unlimited magic. We've seen on multiple occasions even with PoF, Natsu runs out of magic.

When Natsu saw Mavis go down, he got even angrier.

It's relevant to me since i like it

Cool.

 

[Raven]

Nowhere does it say PoF has unlimited magic. We've seen on multiple occasions even with PoF, Natsu runs out of magic.

When Natsu saw Mavis go down, he got even angrier.



Cool.

Yes it is, It compete with unlimited magic aka FH. Hence it's unlimited boost of magic boost