Wall said he couldn't analyze it. Why is Wall being unable to analyze red lightning not a legitimate explanation for why he couldn't convert it into power? If Wall doesn't know how it works, he probably doesn't know how to manipulate it. Do you not believe us when we say Wall couldn't analyze the lightning? Wall himself stated that he couldn't analyze red lightning.
Again, Wall is only immune to lightning so long as he can convert it to power. He couldn't analyze red lightning, and so he couldn't possibly have known how to convert it into power. Obviously red lightning had different properties to normal lightning. It might be stronger than Laxus' standard attacks, sure. That doesn't stop it from being Wall's weakness though.
I'm saying Bloodman is in his strongest form, and that is more effort than what Wall is showing. Whether or not Bloodman is going all out depends on whether or not he's used Over Skelter.
Wall said he couldn't analyze it. Why is Wall being unable to analyze red lightning not a legitimate explanation for why he couldn't convert it into power? If Wall doesn't know how it works, he probably doesn't know how to manipulate it. Do you not believe us when we say Wall couldn't analyze the lightning? Wall himself stated that he couldn't analyze red lightning.
Again, Wall is only immune to lightning so long as he can convert it to power. He couldn't analyze red lightning, and so he couldn't possibly have known how to convert it into power. Obviously red lightning had different properties to normal lightning. It might be stronger than Laxus' standard attacks, sure. That doesn't stop it from being Wall's weakness though.
I'm saying Bloodman is in his strongest form, and that is more effort than what Wall is showing. Whether or not Bloodman is going all out depends on whether or not he's used Over Skelter.
Invel froze base Natsu. There is a huge power gap between that and FDK Natsu. Did you just say Igneel's flames are featless? That's amazing. Acnologia was covered in wounds when Igneel first knocked him down, and also - Igneel knocked him down. He was covered in fire when he did so.
Gildarts and Bluenote were fighting with magic. And if Bluenote can punch Gildarts without magic, then Natsu certainly can punch Gildarts with magic. Gildarts has never thrown multiple mountain busting punches in quick succession, and Natsu can throw multiple punches. In fact, Gildarts has never thrown multiple punches in quick succession in the actual manga, only in spin offs. Natsu has done so in the manga. Natsu had to hold back against Jacob. He probably could have moved him with a basic punch if he wanted to, as even in his base mode he has punches that outclass Makarov's. He just didn't want to blow a hole in the guild. War god is taller than any mountain.
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Again, Wall is naturally weak to lightning.
Why is it bs? Wall himself stated that he couldn't analyze red lightning.
I didn't say they all didn't have weaknesses. 1) Mard has a weakness, and he recognized it. He doesn't have the ability to create a defense for it though, and so was defeated when Gray hit him. 2) Hades had no weaknesses, and his loss was attributed to his heart being destroyed and the Tenrou Tree being restored. 3) Ajeel's weakness isn't even to normal swords, and they never even scratched him. It took Erza an armor that can dispel magic to take him down. 4) Wall has a weakness. He recognized it, and created a defense against that weakness. Laxus found a way to exploit that weakness with a special type of lightning, one that Wall did not recognize and couldn't create a defense against. None of the people you mentioned have cases similar to Wall vs Laxus. If anything, Wall is ahead of everyone you mentioned in that he actually took the time to prepare for the event of facing someone with lightning.
Third Seal is still Bloodman's most powerful form. Gray had a boost with power of feelings. His demon form would likely still be stronger than his base.
Gildarts has casual mountain busting punches. In Ice trail which is cannon, Gildarts threw 13 punches instantly. Do you know what the word instantly means? In a flash.
When Gildarts busted that mountain, he did it casually. He wasnt gasping for air after that attack. If Gildarts used his speed and strength, he's unstoppable. When he headhutted God Serena, he could've used his fist instead and landed a punch and just completely destroy him. But plot. Natsu can't throw multiple demolition fist bud.
Gildarts has casual mountain busting punches. In Ice trail which is cannon, Gildarts threw 13 punches instantly. Do you know what the word instantly means? In a flash.
When Gildarts busted that mountain, he did it casually. He wasnt gasping for air after that attack. If Gildarts used his speed and strength, he's unstoppable. When he headhutted God Serena, he could've used his fist instead and landed a punch and just completely destroy him. But plot. Natsu can't throw multiple demolition fist bud.
Wall was surprised by the fact he couldn't analyze the lightning, and there really was no reason for him to lie in that situation.
Wall is vulnerable to lightning. Lightning is his weakness.
Wall compensates for this vulnerability by transforming lightning into power he can use.
If Wall can't transform the lightning from an attack, he will be vulnerable to that attack.
Wall doesn't know how red lightning works, and so probably can't transform the lightning into power he can use.
I don't see why being unable to tank something that is your weakness gives you terrible durability.
We don't know if Bradman has used OverSkelter on Rogue yet, so I don't know if Bloodman has gone full power yet or not, but going into the 3rd Seal is something Bloodman did against Gajevy after the two of them survived the 1st and 2nd seals. It means the anti-magic particles are probably not working, and the skulls didn't bring enough firepower to the table. I am certain Wall hasn't recognized Minerva as a worthy enemy because he hasn't entered assault mode.
Wall was surprised by the fact he couldn't analyze the lightning, and there really was no reason for him to lie in that situation.
Wall is vulnerable to lightning. Lightning is his weakness.
Wall compensates for this vulnerability by transforming lightning into power he can use.
If Wall can't transform the lightning from an attack, he will be vulnerable to that attack.
Wall doesn't know how red lightning works, and so probably can't transform the lightning into power he can use.
I don't see why being unable to tank something that is your weakness gives you terrible durability.
We don't know if Bradman has used OverSkelter on Rogue yet, so I don't know if Bloodman has gone full power yet or not, but going into the 3rd Seal is something Bloodman did against Gajevy after the two of them survived the 1st and 2nd seals. It means the anti-magic particles are probably not working, and the skulls didn't bring enough firepower to the table. I am certain Wall hasn't recognized Minerva as a worthy enemy because he hasn't entered assault mode.
Wall was surprised by the fact he couldn't analyze the lightning, and there really was no reason for him to lie in that situation.
Wall is vulnerable to lightning. Lightning is his weakness.
Wall compensates for this vulnerability by transforming lightning into power he can use.
If Wall can't transform the lightning from an attack, he will be vulnerable to that attack.
Wall doesn't know how red lightning works, and so probably can't transform the lightning into power he can use.
I don't see why being unable to tank something that is your weakness gives you terrible durability.
We don't know if Bradman has used OverSkelter on Rogue yet, so I don't know if Bloodman has gone full power yet or not, but going into the 3rd Seal is something Bloodman did against Gajevy after the two of them survived the 1st and 2nd seals. It means the anti-magic particles are probably not working, and the skulls didn't bring enough firepower to the table. I am certain Wall hasn't recognized Minerva as a worthy enemy because he hasn't entered assault mode.
Exactly, we don't know if Bloodman has ever used OverSkelter on Rogue yet, so let's not begin assuming things.
Bloodman's form literally means nothing.
Bloodman could be casually fighting in his strongest form while Wahl is fighting all out in his weakest form, it still equates to the same thing.
We have never had any proof that Bloodman is fighting harder than Wahl is.
Until you can prove to me that Bloodman is fighting Rogue at full power while Wahl is casually thrashing Minerva, then I think that argument speaks for itself.
Again, straight from the chapter, Red Lightning was defined simply as lightning that exceeds lightning.
In other words, Red Lightning is still lightning.
And Wahl said he can convert lightning into energy; therefore, he should have no problem doing it.
The moment that Wahl could not depend on his immunity, he was immediately crushed. That tells you he has terrible durability.
So I guess if Gray ever gets killed by Natsu's fire dragon roar, then we can't say that Gray has terrible durability because fire is Gray's weakness.
Exactly, we don't know if Bloodman has ever used OverSkelter on Rogue yet, so let's not begin assuming things.
Bloodman's form literally means nothing.
Bloodman could be casually fighting in his strongest form while Wahl is fighting all out in his weakest form, it still equates to the same thing.
We have never had any proof that Bloodman is fighting harder than Wahl is.
Until you can prove to me that Bloodman is fighting Rogue at full power while Wahl is casually thrashing Minerva, then I think that argument speaks for itself.
Yes, red lightning is still lightning. And lightning is Wall's weakness if he can't absorb it for power. Red Lightning was different enough from normal lightning that Rogue couldn't analyze it though, and since he couldn't analyze it like he could regular lightning... he probably can't absorb it the same way. Wall isn't vulnerable to anything else either, just lightning.
Red Lightning isn't the equivalent to one of Natsu's fire dragon roars. It should be far stronger. I rank red lightning in the same category as Gildart's empyrean or demolition fist. Gray, now that he's amped up on emotions, is also probably stronger than your average Spriggan.
If Bloodman could have dealt with Rogue in 1st or 2nd seal, he wouldn't have released his 3rd seal. IMO, if base Wall is equal to Bradman's 3rd seal, then assault Wall would be a whole lot stronger.
Still not an exhaustive move. The time difference is negligible imo, especially since Natsu can probably use it after throwing other punches - like the one he used to take out Neinhart.
Regarding mountain busting i should make a point.All high tier characters in this arc are Mountain busting.Natsu shattered into pieces a mountain sized War God into pieces which is a solid mountain level attack that too in his base state.His aura against Jacob was itself was mountain level.His FDK fist against with Jacob was above 200 Megatonnes which is enough to destroy a mountain.Same with God Serena and August.
Yes, red lightning is still lightning. And lightning is Wall's weakness if he can't absorb it for power. Red Lightning was different enough from normal lightning that Rogue couldn't analyze it though, and since he couldn't analyze it like he could regular lightning... he probably can't absorb it the same way. Wall isn't vulnerable to anything else either, just lightning.
Red Lightning isn't the equivalent to one of Natsu's fire dragon roars. It should be far stronger. I rank red lightning in the same category as Gildart's empyrean or demolition fist. Gray, now that he's amped up on emotions, is also probably stronger than your average Spriggan.
If Bloodman could have dealt with Rogue in 1st or 2nd seal, he wouldn't have released his 3rd seal. IMO, if base Wall is equal to Bradman's 3rd seal, then assault Wall would be a whole lot stronger.
Again, like last time, I don't think we're going anywhere. I'll let you have the last word, but I'll outline a few things:
There is no proof that Red Lightning is different enough from regular lightning. There should be no reason why Wahl can't analyze it.
In fact, there is proof that Red Lightning is lightning, but just a higher level of it.
Therefore, Wahl should be able to absorb RL with no problem because Red Lightning is lightning.
There really isn't any other difference other than the color and strength of the lightning.
And as for your second paragraph, it really doesn't matter about the caliber of the attack. If something is your weakness, it will be your weakness regardless of how strong it is.
But Wahl's lightning weakness should not have existed.
That's exactly why, in Wahl's case, weakness has nothing to do with losing and should not be used as an excuse for his durability.
Wahl's durability just sucks.
I don't think anybody here has ever provided proof or evidence of Wahl having good durability other than being hit by regular lightning.
How does Bloodman have a choice in which form he takes? The dude is already dead.
That's just a Historia of him, so Neinhart can practically choose any form he wants.
And how do you even know Bloodman 3rd Seal = Base Wahl?
For all we know, Bloodman could be casually beating up Rogue in his 3rd Seal while Wahl has to go all out in base mode to injure Minerva.
Again, like last time, I don't think we're going anywhere. I'll let you have the last word, but I'll outline a few things:
There is no proof that Red Lightning is different enough from regular lightning. There should be no reason why Wahl can't analyze it.
In fact, there is proof that Red Lightning is lightning, but just a higher level of it.
Therefore, Wahl should be able to absorb RL with no problem because Red Lightning is lightning.
There really isn't any other difference other than the color and strength of the lightning.
And as for your second paragraph, it really doesn't matter about the caliber of the attack. If something is your weakness, it will be your weakness regardless of how strong it is.
But Wahl's lightning weakness should not have existed.
That's exactly why, in Wahl's case, weakness has nothing to do with losing and should not be used as an excuse for his durability.
Wahl's durability just sucks.
I don't think anybody here has ever provided proof or evidence of Wahl having good durability other than being hit by regular lightning.
How does Bloodman have a choice in which form he takes? The dude is already dead.
That's just a Historia of him, so Neinhart can practically choose any form he wants.
And how do you even know Bloodman 3rd Seal = Base Wahl?
For all we know, Bloodman could be casually beating up Rogue in his 3rd Seal while Wahl has to go all out in base mode to injure Minerva.
Bruh I don't think you understand what immunity means. Immunity means you are IMMUNE. You take NO DAMAGE. You are UNAFFECTED. Wahl being immune to lightning means that attacks with normal lightning from Laxus would do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, regardless of whether it was a weak attack or whether it was an attack so strong that it could oneshot Acnologia.
I don't know about you, but when I read "lightning that surpasses lightning itself", that to me is a pretty obvious indicator that Red Lightning isn't normal lightning, hence why it "SURPASSES LIGHTNING ITSELF". Normal lightning doesn't surpass normal lightning. That doesn't make any sense at all. So it's very probable that Red Lightning has some sort of special property or whatever that Wahl couldn't analyze, hence why he got killed.
Bruh I don't think you understand what immunity means. Immunity means you are IMMUNE. You take NO DAMAGE. You are UNAFFECTED. Wahl being immune to lightning means that attacks with normal lightning from Laxus would do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, regardless of whether it was a weak attack or whether it was an attack so strong that it could oneshot Acnologia.
I don't know about you, but when I read "lightning that surpasses lightning itself", that to me is a pretty obvious indicator that Red Lightning isn't normal lightning, hence why it "SURPASSES LIGHTNING ITSELF". Normal lightning doesn't surpass normal lightning. That doesn't make any sense at all. So it's very probable that Red Lightning has some sort of special property or whatever that Wahl couldn't analyze, hence why he got killed.
So what you're saying is Natsu Secret art<Knife. If I threw a knife on the floor, it would bounce off. If I used an attack like Natsu, I would blow the area up.
A knife isn't touching Gildarts, his body being cover in crash will break it instantaneously.
NO, you clearly didn't get the point. AoE is different from actual damage, Natsu's attacks have large AOE. However, it is not focused if you will get stab by a knife. Get it?? You didn't even answer my question if Natsu will not be damaged if he get stab by a knife?? Right?? If you have read the last chapter Gray stabbed himself, and did you see his reaction?? That would be the same with August, Natsu, and Gildarts. Even you have a large amount of MP it doesn't mean that you are immune to attacks like that. BTW show me feats of Gildarts being immune to directs attacks because his body is made of "crash particles". LOL do you know what you're saying?? You're saying that that his body are covered with crash magic?? Really?? BTW "CRASH" is a type of caster magic that Gildarts uses but there's no indication that his body is immune to direct hits. You can say he can crash a knife by using his magic, but saying his body is covered with crash magic?? Seriously??
About HistWahl and HistMan, there is a fairly good reason why HistMan may have gone Third Seal. First off, the First Seal wouldn't affect Rogue, he's a Dragon Slayer meaning that his lungs are "made of shadows" (as much as I hate this explanation it's canon). His Second Seal was likely an annoyance, this is a heavily nerfed version of Bradman so it makes sense that his Second Seal would be much weaker, and Bradman's Second Seal doesn't even look like it's been activated given the fact there's no field of bones or skulls anywhere. As for Over Skelter, I highly doubt he's used it considering that in the Gajeevy fight he only used it after they withstood the barrage of curses.
Something I would like to draw attention to is that HistMan may only have a heavily nerfed version of his Three Seals, throughout HistMan vs Rogue we've only seen them trade physical blows, we haven't seen HistMan use any of his offensive curses (MBP's won't work, no "field of bones", no 9DG curses) so it's entirely possible that HistMan only has his intangibility (which Rogue can counter), a heavily nerfed Three Seals and his H2H skills. Basically, this version would be much weaker.
To be fair the above could be said for Wahl too, we've only seen him using basic explosions, he hasn't gone Assault Mode and he hasn't used anything besides those basic attacks. Also (just in case someone argues this) there would be no point in prolonging either fight so while both Historias are winning at the moment, they're not stomping at the slightest, if either of them could beat their opponents quickly they'd do it and then move on to fight someone else.
What I'm basically saying is that there is no point in comparing their Historias, both have been heavily nerfed and have barely shown anything and the only thing we gain from comparing them is skewed information as both of them have lost much of their skill set. If any comparison is to be made between the two it should be how the actual versions of them perform as we have actual evidence there whereas we're speculating here.
Regarding mountain busting i should make a point.All high tier characters in this arc are Mountain busting.Natsu shattered into pieces a mountain sized War God into pieces which is a solid mountain level attack that too in his base state.His aura against Jacob was itself was mountain level.His FDK fist against with Jacob was above 200 Megatonnes which is enough to destroy a mountain.Same with God Serena and August.
Yeah, Hiro isn't going to write Gildarts like that because he's one of the members of fairy tail, right?? It's either you did not understand atomic_2000 or you understand him but did not take his explanation because you know he was right. Do you know AOE?? Natsu has a large AOE because he can damage a large area, but AOE is different from the actual damage on the person. We saw Gray to be able to survive attacks from Hades and Silver especially Silvers's Ice Devil's Rage but a simple stab from an ice sword almost killed him if it wasn't for Juvia's help. Did you get the point?? That's the same with atomic_2000's example. Kagura has been able to survive explosions from Minerva which has a large AOE especially "Yagdo Rigora" but a simple stab from Minerva almost killed her. Did you get the point?? Of course Hiro will not write Gildarts in that way because he loves fairy tail members so much, but once that logic is applied to Gildarts, he would have the same reaction, and that's a fact.
Not always AOE defines everything.Even a small spell can have huge DC.Natsu in base state alone destroyed a mountain sized traget into pieces.Why can't God Serena and August do that if Base Natsu can do it.And yes FDKM Natsu is full mountain level.A 200 Megatonne attack(where a 10 Megatonne is enough to destroy a mountain).
This is the exact reason why fan calcs are generally not used in any VS discussion on forums that I know of. They get really bad when it's essentially just counting pixels without any numbers given by the author. From what I can see it's basically guessing the size of the lake by guessing the conversion of pixels to meters and counting pixels to determine the size of the lake, and then guessing the depth of the lake and assuming it was completely evaporated.
Give this a read: https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/3dzynf/fan_calcs/
I'm not a pokemon guy though thats the context where I hear the term super effective most often. When I said that it was super effective against Gray I mean that it was so effective that it bypassed Gray's (never before seen) resistance to ice.
I'm not into pokemon either. I think when something is super-effective, it does more damage than it would against a standard opponent. Gray has resistance to Ice, but if Invel's ice can bypass that then Gray takes on similar damage that say Natsu would take on. To be honest, Gray still had resistance, but Invel's power was able to overcome it regardless.
Gray's raw magical power and DeS probably allowed him to overcome the armor but it was Ice Make that allowed him to shape it into his own attack. As we saw with Silver, Slayers don't mold ice. They fight like Invel by shooting ice spikes and flash freezing things. It's why Gray's Devil Slaying moves are so unique. He's an ICe Make mage and we know he takes a lot of pride in that.
I doubt he will keep the underworld ice. He didn't absorb its power or anything. He just reshaped the ice on his arm and mixed it with his own.
Well I do think Gray's magic power certainly helped him overcome Invel's armour.
I agree on Gray making weapons and that he's unique to Silver, but this is actually how Gray uses DeS magic. Invel shed light on this. For IDK Destruction fist... Gray re-molded the ice from Invel's armour. Gray used his own power to re-make it as a DeS spell.
As for whether he gets a power up, I'm 50-50, it didn't seem that significant to be a power up. I liken it to Steel Gajeel, or Gajeel's ingestion of anti-magic particles... so likely not permanent.
Oh yes, especially the armor. Its why Invel moved up in my rankings. He had been lacking in offense and defense but the armor changed that in an instant. Who needs close quarters combat skills when anything that touches you freezes and crumbles? That Gray was able to overcome the armor's awesome power doesnt mean that others can do the same at all.
The armour was solid. It mitigates some of Invel's poorer stats like strength and durability. Essentially the armour made him more like Wall's exoskeleton when he powered it up... he was able to stop Laxus' punch just like how Invel stopped Gray's punches (which were overpowering and hurting him). The hax is a nice kicker to this armour, it was a shame he met Gray.
To defeat that armour you'd need a powerful one hit spell. FDKM Natsu's Demolishing Strike and Laxus' Red Lightning should probably do it. Laxus' LD Jaw... probably not. Nukes would be more effective in fighting the armour since the hax requires touch.
