Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[The President]

Although most of our discussion has to do with comparing Lucy and Juvia, I was exclusively talking about Urano Metria here and its effects on Brandish. I don't know why you don't want to argue about it as a separate thing, but alright.

But I am not arguing how UM would do against Brandish, I have absolutely no reason to argue that.

I don't understand why it necessarily has to be that they "still" had control, and not that they somehow regained control, even when they had been mashing each other rather beastly.

Point is that Ice Lock has holes in its control so its totally feasible that Gray was holding back since the beginning, and very likely.

Only one of Gray's attacks hurt Invel, and it was because the latter was not on guard, since Gray had just powered up to his DeS mode. As soon as Invel understood he had to get a little bit more serious, Gray was powerless.

Gray wasn't powerless. There is absolutely nothing indicating he was.

Not for everyone. Bloodlust may be a negative factor given that the mind is usually too biased, nerves, anxiety, etc. come into play and the battle style may even get sloppy and imprecisse. I understand it works like that with characters like Gray or Jellal, but I still cannot accept such a massive gap between morals off Gray and bloodlusted Gray. The gap is just too big: from being utterly defeated to being massively superior.

But POF is absolutely no different.......

It depends on how you interpret things. Is it reasonable for you that Gray went from being a 5 (Invel being a 7) to being a 9? Does bloodlust increase this power that much? Because then bloodlusted Glidartz may be above Acnologia (I'm exaggerating, but you know what I mean). For me, this was clearly a powerup Gray received, not him just being bloodlusted.

I'd say its more like he went from 5 to 7. I don't think he was overall stronger then Invel since he still had the resistance to ice. Bloodlusted Gildarts is the Gildarts we saw against Bluenote. Need I remind you that Gray is one of the few characters who has an abundance of darkness, bloodlust probably goes double for him.

Natsu was bloodlusted before. Against Mard, he was bloodlusted and he actually managed to enter DF mode. Bloodlust "lead" to a powerup, a visible powerup (DF). For Gray, there is no visible powerup as in a visible mode as such, other than his hair being spiky, but I think it's something similar to that. What's more, Natsu was being trashed by Mard Geer, and in DF he was not being trashed but he still couldn't beat him. However, in this case, Gray went from being trashed to being massively superior. In my interpretation, this is a powerup, an asspull powerup which justifies the fact that Natsu can casually oneshot certain spriggans now. IMO it was an excuse to make Gray as strong as he needs to be: as strong as Natsu, so that a plausible fight between them in the future is doable.

Well Gray was clearly exerting more MP then he ever was, to the point that his hair spiked up. And Invel even shivered form Grays bloodlust. Its not a literal power-up, its simply him performing to the very best of his abilities.

If he did, Romeo would probably improve vastly, but Acnologia would stay the same. Gray improved though, which proves Juvia was not a hindrance for him; the gap between them mustn't have been massive.

Thats because Acnologia is in his prime/peak whereas Romeo is still a child, thats besides the point. Do you have evidence that Gray and Juvia trained against each other?

In my opinion, no. I have more facts than you do to prove so: they fought when they were being controlled and their fight only proved that Gray was superior to her, but not by a huge margin. The Gray that defeated Invel is another gray, an unprecedented Gray. Base bloodlusted Gray >> DeS Gray; Base bloodlusted Gray is even superior or equal to DF Gajeel which was the DF mode of Gajeel in the current arc... I mean, does it make sense to you, that bloodlusted BASE Gray is as powerful as bloodlusted DF Gajeel? It does not to me. To me is clear asspull. I respect your opinion but respect mine and please, don't say "then everything is asspull" because it's not. There are things which within the nonsense of this manga still make some sense, and there are things which don't.

I disagree with almost everything here. But I'll focus on the Gajeel bit. No. Bloodlusted base Gray (or Gray in general) is DEFINITELY not as strong, stronger or anywhere near DF Gajeel. Gajeel stomped Bradman without even using any named attacks in a matter of panels. Gray was kicking around Invel in CQC and then Invel used his armour and would have won had it not been for Grays resistance. Bradman put up no challenge whatsoever whereas Invel may have potentially even won or at the very least, definitely injured Gray. I put Invel above Bradman but they are still in the same tier, the difference in how the two performed against their respective Spriggan is truly paramount.

DeS Gray could'nt have beaten Invel.

Beaten? Definitely not, not before getting bloodlusted and heightening his powers. But he was definitely giving Invel a fight, not completely powerless.

Considering Invel can use Gray's ice as if it were his, I think this is having 'resistance' to Gray, as in, his magic is not only wasted (because it can't hurt invel) but it is also reutilized by him.

Its really fundamentally different. Gray LITERALLY has ice resistance. Invel has NO resistance, he simply overpowers Grays base ice. I don't really know where you get the idea that Gray reutilizes Grays ice.

Well, Brandish stopped that kick and kicked her away... Scorpio outsped Brandish (probably because Brandish let that happen). If you consider this overwhelming her, we have different concepts for the word overwhelming. The mini cancer Lucy cutting her must've felt like bee stings at most...

Scorpio Lucy was landing multiple hits without any answer. Cancer Lucy still got hits without an answer. Thats a winning exchange.

In my interpretation, Brandish didn't lose anything because she was not fighting seriously; but even if I were to concede that she indeed lost to two cqc exchanges, Brandish also won the Taurus one. Just see the efficacy by which she stops Lucy's kick and kicks her away. Brandish is like: what's even that kick?

Point is that Brandish isn't overwhelmingly above Lucy in CQC like say, Wahl is.

Maybe he would. Or he couldn't use stealth on him. Brandish couldn't use her haxy magic against enhanced Neinheart after all. NLF must apply here, otherwise characters like Brandish, Dimaria or even Jacob could kill Acnologia. And we know it's not like that.

Very different cases. NLF applies when one characters tries to enact his/her power on another character. Just because it works on one character doesn't mean it will work on all characters (unless omnipotence is involved). You cannot on the other hand apply NLF to a bodily function like MBP intangibility. If you are made out of something then you are made out of something, just cause another character is immensely strong doesn't just make you stop being made out of it when against them.

Btw I understand DiMaria and Brandish but why Jacob? transport? I mean if Acno stands in one spot while Jacob claps and it charges then I guess. And even then we would have to assume jacob can insta-kill once Acno is in his dimension, if jacob has to personally go into the space that obviously wouldn't work out that well for him.

That is another thing that doesn't make much sense to me. So the WS tier was a tier because it took into account a few mages whose power was tremendous, which may cause a catastrophe upon clashing. Then it turns out that WS tier is utter crap if compared to Spriggan tier. WS, more particularly GoI, was the tier which was supposed to encompass the strongest mages of the continent; yet it turns out that guild children were more powerful than them.

How can it be that Glidartz, Laxus, Natsu or Gray are all more powerful than Hyberion, the second strongest known mage of a continent, after a year of training? We do have the Jura basis to compare: the GoI were above GMG Jura, who was similar to GMG Laxus; yet Laxus in one year has gone from Jura level (below GoI) to spriggan tier (above the GoI). Laxus is, automatically, one of the strongest mages of a continent, but his improvement has occurred in one year.[/QUOTE]

Idk, Hiros laws of improvement. Point is that the GOI were stated to be fairly insignificant even BEFORE the TS by none other then one of the GOI. This shows that Hiro did think this through to some extent.

We have no proof that Irene was formerly an Ishgar citizen, but it's also likely she gained her powers upon reaching Alvarez. Also, God Serena is a good example of this: the strongest former mage of Ishgar can compare to 11 other mages who are equal or superior to him in another continent. It is as if now, Europe suddenly had 11 people who could run as fast or faster than Usain Bolt...

Pretty sure she or one of her subordinates outright state that she was. Former is a key word. Post-TS thats very debatable and more then likely false.

Is the number of Alvarez's inhabitants known? Fiore alone had 5 million inhabitants, and it is a country of Ishgar...

Makarov said they had WAY more guilds. It was like double or something.

 

[Woodenstool]

But I am not arguing how UM would do against Brandish, I have absolutely no reason to argue that.



Point is that Ice Lock has holes in its control so its totally feasible that Gray was holding back since the beginning, and very likely.



Gray wasn't powerless. There is absolutely nothing indicating he was.



But POF is absolutely no different.......



I'd say its more like he went from 5 to 7. I don't think he was overall stronger then Invel since he still had the resistance to ice. Bloodlusted Gildarts is the Gildarts we saw against Bluenote. Need I remind you that Gray is one of the few characters who has an abundance of darkness, bloodlust probably goes double for him.



Well Gray was clearly exerting more MP then he ever was, to the point that his hair spiked up. And Invel even shivered form Grays bloodlust. Its not a literal power-up, its simply him performing to the very best of his abilities.



Thats because Acnologia is in his prime/peak whereas Romeo is still a child, thats besides the point. Do you have evidence that Gray and Juvia trained against each other?



I disagree with almost everything here. But I'll focus on the Gajeel bit. No. Bloodlusted base Gray (or Gray in general) is DEFINITELY not as strong, stronger or anywhere near DF Gajeel. Gajeel stomped Bradman without even using any named attacks in a matter of panels. Gray was kicking around Invel in CQC and then Invel used his armour and would have won had it not been for Grays resistance. Bradman put up no challenge whatsoever whereas Invel may have potentially even won or at the very least, definitely injured Gray. I put Invel above Bradman but they are still in the same tier, the difference in how the two performed against their respective Spriggan is truly paramount.



Beaten? Definitely not, not before getting bloodlusted and heightening his powers. But he was definitely giving Invel a fight, not completely powerless.



Its really fundamentally different. Gray LITERALLY has ice resistance. Invel has NO resistance, he simply overpowers Grays base ice. I don't really know where you get the idea that Gray reutilizes Grays ice.



Scorpio Lucy was landing multiple hits without any answer. Cancer Lucy still got hits without an answer. Thats a winning exchange.



Point is that Brandish isn't overwhelmingly above Lucy in CQC like say, Wahl is.



Very different cases. NLF applies when one characters tries to enact his/her power on another character. Just because it works on one character doesn't mean it will work on all characters (unless omnipotence is involved). You cannot on the other hand apply NLF to a bodily function like MBP intangibility. If you are made out of something then you are made out of something, just cause another character is immensely strong doesn't just make you stop being made out of it when against them.

Btw I understand DiMaria and Brandish but why Jacob? transport? I mean if Acno stands in one spot while Jacob claps and it charges then I guess. And even then we would have to assume jacob can insta-kill once Acno is in his dimension, if jacob has to personally go into the space that obviously wouldn't work out that well for him.



How can it be that Glidartz, Laxus, Natsu or Gray are all more powerful than Hyberion, the second strongest known mage of a continent, after a year of training? We do have the Jura basis to compare: the GoI were above GMG Jura, who was similar to GMG Laxus; yet Laxus in one year has gone from Jura level (below GoI) to spriggan tier (above the GoI). Laxus is, automatically, one of the strongest mages of a continent, but his improvement has occurred in one year.

Idk, Hiros laws of improvement. Point is that the GOI were stated to be fairly insignificant even BEFORE the TS by none other then one of the GOI. This shows that Hiro did think this through to some extent.



Pretty sure she or one of her subordinates outright state that she was. Former is a key word. Post-TS thats very debatable and more then likely false.



Makarov said they had WAY more guilds. It was like double or something.[/QUOTE]
I couldn't bother but laugh while reading your post. Did you really just imply that Jacob and Dimaria are capable of killing Acnologia? The dude tools Igneels roar like it going swimming in a hot spring. It didn't do anything, no damage whatsoever.

Yes, Dimaria can stop time and have Acnologia affected by it. However even in her God Take over form, she isn't going to land a scratch on him. Acnologia can take all the magic power from the spriggan 12 combined and it wouldn't even dent him. The only thing Dimaria can do is cut his clothes off.

That's the point of time skips, to progress characters at insane rates in little time. Don't get Butthurt that Laxus can take on the top dogs like August and Irene.

 

[Axiomus]

No, it means Irene increased his magic above her own or the enchantment prevents her from using magic on him. It's not like their magic is light years in difference so it's totally understandable that Irene can perform that job.

Natsu did use Igneels power against the God of war. That punch sent fire from the clouds to the ground. That distance is greater than the difference between the guild and that cliff they were standing on. But Natsus punch didn't do that meaning it's not as powerful as it we first seen it. What don't you get? Natsu even said taste the flames of Igneel. The magic is literally inside of him meaning he can draw from that source like gasoline.

The point is that Brandish's magic would have worked against Neinhart had he not been enchanted. That means Brandish's magic would likely effect mages of her level, including other Spriggans. Neinhart being enhanced to the point where he could resist Brandish's magic doesn't take away from this. Brandish being able to effect Natsu doesn't take away from the fact that when it comes to fighting, Natsu's attacks are right up there with other Spriggan 12 members.

We've gone over this. The only time Natsu used Igneel's power was against Zeref.

Spoiler: とにかくこの技は 一回 しか使えねえ= Anyways, I can only use this technique once

とにかく = Anyways
この = this
技は = technique
一回 = Once
しか使えねえ = Only use

Spoiler: これが炎電王の炎だア = This is the fire of the fire dragon king.

これが=This is
炎電王= Fire dragon king
の炎 = Of fire
だア= belong to

Natsu can always use Igneel's fire when he uses Fire Dragon King spells. Igneel is a fire dragon king. Fire dragon king spells lets someone use fire that is the same as the fire dragon king's. What Natsu doesn't have anymore is Igneel's raw magical power. By the way, Natsu doesn't call Igneel's magical power "Flames of Igneel". He calls it Igneel's magical power. Again, I can provide the Japanese raws to prove this as well.

 

[Ebony Maw]

NATSu burnt ZEREF's curse using IGNEEL's flames....What makes u even think a slight bit that BRADMAN is on ZEREF's level ?

First off, please don't put words in my mouth, I never stated that Bradman = Zeref, I stated that Non-Igneel Natsu can't burn through curses and I'm inclined to stick with this. If you disagree and think that he can burn through curses without Igneel's power, then please show my some form of evidence that proves he can.

Why would even NATSU need IGNEEL's flames to burn BRADMAN's curse ?

Because (IIRC) he's only ever burned through curses whilst using Igneel's power.

Burden is on me to prove it..Please don't make me laugh......My friend , u r the one who wants this imaginary fights & comparisons on this thread ..

Ugh, if you haven't noticed we are in the Power Ranking thread meaning that 98% a discussion will involve fights that never happened. And as far as burden of proof goes, it is definitely on you, both of us are discussing an imaginary battle but you're asking me to prove negatives, something almost impossible.

So the burden of proof IS on you, if you want to make a claim then back it up with evidence, then I'll make a counter argument or a concession.

Had u actually read the thread properly , u would have understood what the discussion was about ? Who even suggested those imaginary non-happening fights......Ask that man to prove since he started that imaginary fight & u have just picked a part of that thread ?

From what I read I interpreted that we're debating which Spriggan's Natsu can one-shot or beat, I only jumped into this discussion because people were saying he could evaporate Tenchi Kamei and burn MBP's.

If u r interested that much in NON-CANNON & DREAM matches , make a thread on DOMUS FLAU..We have a separate section for it......

I actually have.

In short , I don't owe u a thing nor the burden is on me to prove anything ..In fact it is upon u to prove that imaginary fight u want..

Like I said, we're doing a comparison so of course it's going to include imaginary fights. It's not that I want this fight (I hate debates involving Natsu) but the amount of arguments against Bradman that have no proof is staggering.

Again, If you want to prove Natsu can do something, show me evidence first and then I'll make a counter argument, it's unfair and slightly ridiculous to ask people to prove negatives.

Why is TENCHI KAMEI unbeatable ?....Here we have a character rolling & prolling after that curse..And NATSU can't beat it..Oh , that dark matter against whom ROGUE is able to hold himself.........& NATSU who fought ZEREF , defeated 2 spriggans & KOed 1 can't beat him ..

No, Tenchi Kamei is not unbeatable but what could Natsu do to it? He can't just burn it away like many people are suggesting because the carbon in the water will stop his flames from igniting, like what happened in Tartaros. Also, why are you bringing up Rogue? He's fighting a Historia (heavily nerfed Bradman) and he's still getting beaten.

Correction, Natsu fought Zeref when he had Igneel's remaining MP, which is gone now. No feats from this battle apply here as he's nowhere near as powerful now.

As for the Spriggans, yes he did defeat two of them, but Jacob was restricted in that he couldn't use Transport, had he not been limited he would have no-diffed the guild. The other Spriggan he beat was Neinhart, someone with terrible durability, so (as BS as I think it was) I can understand why he went down quickly. Quick question, which other Spriggan did he beat? I'm not the biggest Natsu buff so I've probably forgotten something.

With all of the above being said, Bradman is very different from his other opponents, the amount of hax he has at his disposal is incredible and his defense is amazingly versatile. Some people here are underestimating Bradman, he's got hax, a strong defense and he can kill just by being near people.

Why would u think that NATSU will let him even reach there giving him that chance ? He can beat him & harm him physically before he is even able to use 3rd seal....

The second Bradman realizes his opponent is very strong he'll go Third Seal, he did it to Gajeel and then began spamming curses, in fact this is worse for Natsu as (because he's a very strong opponent) he'll likely use his best curses. This being said, that's if Natsu can push him that far, he doesn't have Iron Lungs so the MBP's would be a problem for him.

Have u considerd NATSU's power , his spells , feats before saying he can't do a thing against his absorption & such ?

ABSORPTION :- can eat magic's soul.......Is he strong enough to negate entire spell ?
MACRO :- He said he can use that curse , correct ? Is that curse absolute ? Do we not have people who broke those curses ? Certain conditions are to be met correct...Have we actually seen BRADMAN using that curse ? If so , why did he not use that against GAJEEL ?

We know he can use Macro as he states he has the power of the 9DG and we see him use Torafuzar's, Jackel's, Mard Geer's, Silver's and Ezel's curses. As for the case of Macro working, it's 50/50 IMO, Bradman has immense CP that should be more than Natsu's MP but I could also see it not having much effect.

As for Absorption, given that Bradman is a Spriggan and Natsu's offense is Spriggan tier I can see arguments being given either way but I highly believe that Bradman could take a few spells via Absorption.

As I said above , what if NATSU's spells are stronger than he can handle ? ...It was not like FRANMALTH the demon's power was absolute.....HE was defeated by NATSU....Similar is the case with TOTOMARU ....He used to command NATSU's flames....NATSU broke it at that time....And now that NATSU basically is that level , I don't think it to be a problem for him to beat BRADMAN's spells.....

It is not like ZEREF's magic.....Just suck away life instantly........

Using Natsu's battle against Franmalth actually hinders your argument about Absorption as Natsu was only able to beat him by using a giant rock that happened to be nearby, and since rocks don't have souls Franmalth couldn't absorb it. If this happened to Bradman it wouldn't actually be a problem because he could avoid it via his MBP body

While the Second and Third Seals don't steal life instantly it does drain life, so the longer the battle, the worse it gets.

About DF , at least u can have an imagination...DF is several times more powerful than their base form.......So , current NATSU's strength multiplied..I don't need to tell u further....U can imagine itself.....

I expect DF Natsu to be very powerful but bringing that discussion isn't very fruitful as:

1) We can only speculate on DF Natsu
2) He'll likely be able to beat all of the Spriggans bar August and Irene (maybe DiMaria too) in that form

Man , does NATSU need to eat fire only to go DF ?

He ate LAXUS's lightning , ETHERION to power himself....All of them are deadly to him....yet , he has done it & eaten different elements , hasn't he ?

He doesn't have to eat to go DF, he can activate it by himself now but like I said above, discussion about his DF right now is pure speculation right now and isn't really usable in debates like this.

As for gaining DF via eating, he has done it before but doing that with MBP's wouldn't be possible, it doesn't have any Ethernano whatsoever and thee's no excess fire in them either so eating them would be suicide.

I'm not too sure why you listed Laxus' lightning, that just gave him a new mode, not a DF.

Once again burden of PROOF is on u.......U r the one who wants that imaginary fight.....
As for this , ETHERION , the light that destroys nation....accumulated in the crystal....NATSU ate it.It is a much higher level MP particles than BRADMAn's MBP's.......

Surely , now u won't say BRADMAN > ETHERION

Nope, burden of proof is on you here, prove or theorize why Natsu would be able to eat MBP's and go into DF without dying.

No I won't say Bradman > Etherion but you don't seem to get why MBP's wouldn't power him up, in fact your Etherion argument helps me. Whilst Etherion has extremely high Magic Power, MBP feed on Ethernano, so when someone take them in it weakens their magic and begins to poison them.

See friend , once again , the burden of proof is on u...U want this NON-CANNON fight...Make a thread on DOMUS FLAU if u want this fight & their reviews......I am not obligated to u nor am I burdened to prove anything for an imaginary fight.....

Once again, the burden of proof is on you, this may be a hypothetical fight but we're doing this for a reason, you're trying to prove Natsu can beat Bradman whilst I'm arguing the opposite. The only difference right now is that I'm presenting evidence for my beliefs whilst you keep saying that you have no responsibility in showing me proof, which is a laughable thing to do in a debate as it completely defeats the purpose of a debate.

 

[Woodenstool]

First off, please don't put words in my mouth, I never stated that Bradman = Zeref, I stated that Non-Igneel Natsu can't burn through curses and I'm inclined to stick with this. If you disagree and think that he can burn through curses without Igneel's power, then please show my some form of evidence that proves he can.

Because (IIRC) he's only ever burned through curses whilst using Igneel's power.

Ugh, if you haven't noticed we are in the Power Ranking thread meaning that 98% a discussion will involve fights that never happened. And as far as burden of proof goes, it is definitely on you, both of us are discussing an imaginary battle but you're asking me to prove negatives, something almost impossible.

So the burden of proof IS on you, if you want to make a claim then back it up with evidence, then I'll make a counter argument or a concession.

From what I read I interpreted that we're debating which Spriggan's Natsu can one-shot or beat, I only jumped into this discussion because people were saying he could evaporate Tenchi Kamei and burn MBP's.

I actually have.

Like I said, we're doing a comparison so of course it's going to include imaginary fights. It's not that I want this fight (I hate debates involving Natsu) but the amount of arguments against Bradman that have no proof is staggering.

Again, If you want to prove Natsu can do something, show me evidence first and then I'll make a counter argument, it's unfair and slightly ridiculous to ask people to prove negatives.

No, Tenchi Kamei is not unbeatable but what could Natsu do to it? He can't just burn it away like many people are suggesting because the carbon in the water will stop his flames from igniting, like what happened in Tartaros. Also, why are you bringing up Rogue? He's fighting a Historia (heavily nerfed Bradman) and he's still getting beaten.

Correction, Natsu fought Zeref when he had Igneel's remaining MP, which is gone now. No feats from this battle apply here as he's nowhere near as powerful now.

As for the Spriggans, yes he did defeat two of them, but Jacob was restricted in that he couldn't use Transport, had he not been limited he would have no-diffed the guild. The other Spriggan he beat was Neinhart, someone with terrible durability, so (as BS as I think it was) I can understand why he went down quickly. Quick question, which other Spriggan did he beat? I'm not the biggest Natsu buff so I've probably forgotten something.

With all of the above being said, Bradman is very different from his other opponents, the amount of hax he has at his disposal is incredible and his defense is amazingly versatile. Some people here are underestimating Bradman, he's got hax, a strong defense and he can kill just by being near people.

The second Bradman realizes his opponent is very strong he'll go Third Seal, he did it to Gajeel and then began spamming curses, in fact this is worse for Natsu as (because he's a very strong opponent) he'll likely use his best curses. This being said, that's if Natsu can push him that far, he doesn't have Iron Lungs so the MBP's would be a problem for him.

We know he can use Macro as he states he has the power of the 9DG and we see him use Torafuzar's, Jackel's, Mard Geer's, Silver's and Ezel's curses. As for the case of Macro working, it's 50/50 IMO, Bradman has immense CP that should be more than Natsu's MP but I could also see it not having much effect.

As for Absorption, given that Bradman is a Spriggan and Natsu's offense is Spriggan tier I can see arguments being given either way but I highly believe that Bradman could take a few spells via Absorption.

Using Natsu's battle against Franmalth actually hinders your argument about Absorption as Natsu was only able to beat him by using a giant rock that happened to be nearby, and since rocks don't have souls Franmalth couldn't absorb it. If this happened to Bradman it wouldn't actually be a problem because he could avoid it via his MBP body

While the Second and Third Seals don't steal life instantly it does drain life, so the longer the battle, the worse it gets.

I expect DF Natsu to be very powerful but bringing that discussion isn't very fruitful as:

1) We can only speculate on DF Natsu
2) He'll likely be able to beat all of the Spriggans bar August and Irene (maybe DiMaria too) in that form

He doesn't have to eat to go DF, he can activate it by himself now but like I said above, discussion about his DF right now is pure speculation right now and isn't really usable in debates like this.

As for gaining DF via eating, he has done it before but doing that with MBP's wouldn't be possible, it doesn't have any Ethernano whatsoever and thee's no excess fire in them either so eating them would be suicide.

I'm not too sure why you listed Laxus' lightning, that just gave him a new mode, not a DF.

Nope, burden of proof is on you here, prove or theorize why Natsu would be able to eat MBP's and go into DF without dying.

No I won't say Bradman > Etherion but you don't seem to get why MBP's wouldn't power him up, in fact your Etherion argument helps me. Whilst Etherion has extremely high Magic Power, MBP feed on Ethernano, so when someone take them in it weakens their magic and begins to poison them.


Once again, the burden of proof is on you, this may be a hypothetical fight but we're doing this for a reason, you're trying to prove Natsu can beat Bradman whilst I'm arguing the opposite. The only difference right now is that I'm presenting evidence for my beliefs whilst you keep saying that you have no responsibility in showing me proof, which is a laughable thing to do in a debate as it completely defeats the purpose of a debate.

Natsu isn't as strong as people hype him up to be. Every spriggan would demolish Natsu. Ur is probably spriggan level herself seeing how she handled Gray and Lyon.

 

[SirSamuel016]

Natsu isn't as strong as people hype him up to be. Every spriggan would demolish Natsu. Ur is probably spriggan level herself seeing how she handled Gray and Lyon.

Because Neinhart totally demolished Natsu when they encountered each other, and the same for Jacob when he encountered Natsu. No, Natsu's got some of the best attack power, speed and durability going around for protagonists, there is no way that a lot of the Spriggans could simply "demolish" him. August and Irene given the right situation could be devastating to him, and Dimaria's age seal is a thing, but really a lot of the Spriggans could potentially have a hard time in a fight against Natsu if they get hit a few times going off how Natsu has cleaned up Jacob and Neinhart previously.

As for Ul, I have to disagree. From portrayal in the manga, I'd say her Historia was most likely a beefed up version of the mage, like it was with Zancrow etc. seeing they were running off more magic power and could thus do more.

 

[Arjuna]

Ul was a low tier Wizard Saint level.She was shocked in seeing Gildarts one shotting a monster.Judging by her feats she is below mages like Bluenote,Makarov and GMG Jura.

 

[Char]

Natsu isn't as strong as people hype him up to be. Every spriggan would demolish Natsu. Ur is probably spriggan level herself seeing how she handled Gray and Lyon.

Hmmmm....

First of all, I like all FT characters equally, I don't think I'm biased toward anyone but I won't deny the obvious: Natsu IS spriggan level. I think so now (I didn't use to think so when he fought Jacob because I was well aware the only reason why he beat him was because Jacob's main magic was restricted, that's to say, transport).

Natsu has recently one-shotted or two-shotted an enhanced spriggan. His MP was so enhanced Brandish couldn't even do anything against him. I don't know the extent to what "enhanced" means: Is it only MP? Is it also stats?

Normally when someone is enhanced (has more MP) his stats improve too. Which means Neinheart had decent durability (since it had been enhanced) yet he succumbed after one or two hits. What does it tell me? That Natsu does not have Spriggan-level MP, but he does have spriggan-level offense and speed; probably defense/durability too (although not proven just yet).

As for the Ur argument: I also think Ur was overpowering Gray and Lyon, but people will say to you that Gray wasn't fighting seriously because he wanted Lyon to snap out of it. I guess these are two interpretations on the topic; for me, Ur is GoI tier at most- but most likely regular Wizard Saint tier.

Natsu, Gray and Glidartz have shown similar offensive stats so far; as little sense as it makes for the two of the MC to surpass Glidartz like that, it is probably hinting at the manga ending soon.

 

[lakhan220]

First off, please don't put words in my mouth, I never stated that Bradman = Zeref, I stated that Non-Igneel Natsu can't burn through curses and I'm inclined to stick with this. If you disagree and think that he can burn through curses without Igneel's power, then please show my some form of evidence that proves he can.

Because (IIRC) he's only ever burned through curses whilst using Igneel's power.

I am not putting words in ur mouth..U r the one forcing to take it in.....U never stated that BRADMAN = ZEREF....yet u r assuming here that he will need IGNEEL's flame to harm BRADMAN...who is much weaker than ZEREF...let alone INVEL......

The proof is NATSU burned INVEL's ice...Prove me BRADMAN is stronger than INVEL........U recall NATSU burnt curses using IGNEEL's flame.....correct ?

The fact that he burnt ZEREF's curse using IGNEEL's flame seems nothing to u...BRADMAN is nothing like AUGUST or even IRENE..He is not strong enough to beat even INVEL.....

Ugh, if you haven't noticed we are in the Power Ranking thread meaning that 98% a discussion will involve fights that never happened. And as far as burden of proof goes, it is definitely on you, both of us are discussing an imaginary battle but you're asking me to prove negatives, something almost impossible.

So the burden of proof IS on you, if you want to make a claim then back it up with evidence, then I'll make a counter argument or a concession.

From what I read I interpreted that we're debating which Spriggan's Natsu can one-shot or beat, I only jumped into this discussion because people were saying he could evaporate Tenchi Kamei and burn MBP's.

No , u have not noticed what I was actually talking about at all......Yes , this is a power ranking thread.U desired non-cannon fights.We discuss it here....The discussions will involve the fights that never happened.....Negatives , What about proving positives than ? PROVE NATSU is weaker..PROVE INVEL is weaker than BRADMAN.....

And negatives , u said that BRADMAN's curse works..Prove how it works..U r the one in denial & negative here.....AND , once again , u think it as negatives because it is against BRADMAn..U want to prove BRADMAN superior to NATSU .Then , it will not be me but u who will provide the proofs.

As for my proof , I don't have to say a single thing..NATSu's feats describes it all...BRADMAN is just dead after fighting GAJEEL . I do not need to tell about NATSU now...how he is & how he was even after fighting the 3 battles excluding a bit-face off with AUGUST.

Prove that BRADMAN is actually capable of such feats even after being a HISTORIA.......or even before just he passed away.

U interpreted the part u felt convenient once again..This discussion had actually started with NATSU being a SPRIGGAN - TIER or not since last 10-12 pages....U jumped in to the discussion without even actually knowing what really is going on....picked a point and are trying to make baseless statements.....Counter argument is what u r required to provide here ........

The simple question was that if DF GAJEEL can beat BRADMAN , then why can't NATSU beat him ?

NATSU has feats at his disposal to prove he can actually beat him ...WHAT does BRADMAN have ? DYING.....

As for why he can beat his so called some 3rd seal , I will tell it in later part......

I actually have.

Actually good........I might even see some buffons there acting ridiculously.....They always spout non-sense..But I will also see some decent comments there.......

Like I said, we're doing a comparison so of course it's going to include imaginary fights. It's not that I want this fight (I hate debates involving Natsu) but the amount of arguments against Bradman that have no proof is staggering.

Again, If you want to prove Natsu can do something, show me evidence first and then I'll make a counter argument, it's unfair and slightly ridiculous to ask people to prove negatives.

As I said before , the one asking proofs for an imaginary fights is u.....NATSU has feats as I said before.Prove BRADMAN's besides dying........

The only one being negative here is u..U posted a thread , asked them for votings . they r voting . answering & yet u want proofs for an imaginary fight..Have u proved BRADMAN to be greater than INVEL ?

To make an actual comparison , at least give some feats of that person to be on that level along with his fellow members.

The only argument stated there was of 2 lines & that too to a other person who was acting like a shit continuously..........Yet , here we have u actually taking the blame & responsibility on yourself.......

U conveniently ignored the posts mentioning INVEL can even freeze BRADMAN......U say u hate fights involving NATSU yet u have picked a single line from the post & have made a post this long involving NATSU....There were arguments in previous threads of INVEL , BRANDISH & even DIMARIA greater than BRADMAN...

Still u pick up this thread regarding just NATSU & u r claiming u don't like fights involving NATSU...Are u seriously saying that ?....

As for the downplaying of BRADMAN , it has been done a lot of times.....Is this the 1st time ?

It looks to me u diverted about whole NATSU not being a SPRIGGAN posted by someone ridiculous to this thread.....

No, Tenchi Kamei is not unbeatable but what could Natsu do to it? He can't just burn it away like many people are suggesting because the carbon in the water will stop his flames from igniting, like what happened in Tartaros. Also, why are you bringing up Rogue? He's fighting a Historia (heavily nerfed Bradman) and he's still getting beaten.

Correction, Natsu fought Zeref when he had Igneel's remaining MP, which is gone now. No feats from this battle apply here as he's nowhere near as powerful now.

As for the Spriggans, yes he did defeat two of them, but Jacob was restricted in that he couldn't use Transport, had he not been limited he would have no-diffed the guild. The other Spriggan he beat was Neinhart, someone with terrible durability, so (as BS as I think it was) I can understand why he went down quickly. Quick question, which other Spriggan did he beat? I'm not the biggest Natsu buff so I've probably forgotten something.

So , u want a logic here.......OK then ....

How much percentage did the carbon in his body contain ? The person here just burned the whole damn lake and u r suggesting he can't burn his water body.....

How much carbon % did his water body contain ? So , according to science , if u want to go......to extinguish a flame , u need more powerful water (for a normal water)...

So , if there was more carbon , then there r 3 possibilities.....

1) NATSU's heat will just evaporate the atmosphere around making it hot...The water body if he has it can't even get to those flames.......NATSU can just stand far back & his fire's temperature will speed up the chemical reaction forming CO2 or CO in his water intoxicating his body completely....

2) If he surrounds NATSU's body who practically evaporated the lake , he would at least need much more durability....still the chemical reaction will speed up the process killing him...

3) There can't be more than certain % of carbons in a liqiuid solution........If u keep increasing it , it will be considered HYDROCARBON like petrol..Surely , u don't need me to happen what happens when it comes in contact with even atmosphere leave aside NATSU's flames......

WATER can stop NATSU..How long was that before ? In TARTAROS , he was not even able to melt ZERO's ice..He has melted it currently ..The INVEL's ice which surpassed ZERO's coldness in ice.....Surely , u don't need me to explain what can become of water now......

And I know only one ridiculous baiter who would post this non-sense....Not many ..only 1..U don't need me to tell who that is.U r smart enough to create threads & start polling.Surely , u would understand it...TARTAROS arc - 105+ chapters before & still applying same logic is just a poor reading & accepting non-sense to just bait people.........

I m bringing up ROGUE for an elemental comparison.....GAJEEL absorbed carbons from BRADMAN to get his alloy form.He was IRON so he needed that carbon...NATSU is basically fire here.He can just oxidize the man himself forcing him to die..He doesn't need even to get close if u r applying science logic here........NATSU is the worst combination ever for him....He doesn't need to use even IGNEEL's flames......

As for the temperatures of his flame , do see my post in previous pages here..There are different ranges for even the same color temperature.....Surely , I assume u have seen the anime ..U would surely understand the flames of NATSU slowly changing color..And the difference in the color of the last chapter of anime..

JACOB was defeated by NATSU & LUCY..Also , u r smart enough to recognize the last attack on the few last pages which harmed JACOB was much higher & NATSU was holding back against LESSIO in that fight.....I trust ur wisdom as a FT manga reader to recognize the differnces

As usual , u have not read my post properly.....I have mentioned there...I have posted there for the term "RESTRICTED"..Answer my questions first rather than expecting me to post them again.......Even if u consider ENHANCED NEINHART Koed a BS , it will not change NATSU's feat of KOing a SPRIGGAN..Again with any questions relating ENHANCED , read the before post & answer those first...

With all of the above being said, Bradman is very different from his other opponents, the amount of hax he has at his disposal is incredible and his defense is amazingly versatile. Some people here are underestimating Bradman, he's got hax, a strong defense and he can kill just by being near people.

The second Bradman realizes his opponent is very strong he'll go Third Seal, he did it to Gajeel and then began spamming curses, in fact this is worse for Natsu as (because he's a very strong opponent) he'll likely use his best curses. This being said, that's if Natsu can push him that far, he doesn't have Iron Lungs so the MBP's would be a problem for him.

Once again , NATSU also has speed , power & versatility at his disposal....

OK , once again GAJEEL's element is different than NATSU;s....To say about GAJEEL , refer TTT phase diagram of IRON & its alloys & u will understand....how he did it.....GAJEEL needed those lungs and had it in order to transform to his respective superior alloy lying in that category.

Leave aside that , NATSU survived ETHERION...HE can even eat different elements.Why would NATSU not survive MBP absorption or does he even have need for it ?..For his DF & his LIGHTNING mode , I will say that later here......

NATSU's is a fire...It has completely different effect than GAJEEL & he is the worst possible combination for NATSU....as stated according to the CARBON theory as u included amt of CARBONS..Fire works differently on each SOLID , LIQUID solution of CARBON , gas containing carbon & PURE CARBON materials....As u have said he was a water with more carbons , I have stated three basic simplified sayings.....There are still lot of other factors which can be considered as well like atmosphere , lack of atmosphere , humidity , temperature & various other facts.

As I said people underestimating him is what ur point is then this post is completely contrary to what u have been saying about before that u don't like being involved in NATSU's comparison......There was a post saying GRAY can defeat BRADMAN....I did not see a single response from u to that or many other posts....

If u want to prove , he is better , make some new threads in DOMUS FLAU ...Go ahead & just make threads of him against each members of S-12 & FT as well as his possibility against all other guild characters that u desire.....

We know he can use Macro as he states he has the power of the 9DG and we see him use Torafuzar's, Jackel's, Mard Geer's, Silver's and Ezel's curses. As for the case of Macro working, it's 50/50 IMO, Bradman has immense CP that should be more than Natsu's MP but I could also see it not having much effect.

As for Absorption, given that Bradman is a Spriggan and Natsu's offense is Spriggan tier I can see arguments being given either way but I highly believe that Bradman could take a few spells via Absorption.

U have stated here he can use the powers of 9 demons.......MARDGEER is not involved ..NATSU & GRAY defeated MARD GEER....Yes , he stated he can use MACRO but did not use it against GAJEEL...Don't u think he is not powerful at MACRO which is the reason he avoided it....

He had all curses of 9 gates ....That doesn't mean he was proficient at using everyone of them equally good.....He might be stronger than those 9 gates but That power still if incomplete or weaker spells might lead his defeat can be the reason he avoided using those curse.....He is aware of his enemy's strength.That is why he might have used only spells / curses he can most proficiently use.

We have nothing suggesting BRADMAN's CP > NATSU's MP......Still NATSU has an elemental advantage for which BRADMAN needs to be much more powerful in order to crush NATSU.....Surely as u have said above I can presume u are aware of NATSU's feats & offences.

As for absorption , I said he might not be able to absorb it completely & that will still damage him considering his fluid body....As usual , u did not read the post properly...Off course he can absorb spell which might actually be a harm for him......

Using Natsu's battle against Franmalth actually hinders your argument about Absorption as Natsu was only able to beat him by using a giant rock that happened to be nearby, and since rocks don't have souls Franmalth couldn't absorb it. If this happened to Bradman it wouldn't actually be a problem because he could avoid it via his MBP body

While the Second and Third Seals don't steal life instantly it does drain life, so the longer the battle, the worse it gets.

The battle against FRANMALTH actually supports my argument here. FRANMALTH was weaker then. NATSU is much stronger now.....

FRANMALTH was defeated by ROCk...NATSU here does not even need that here..He has his flames....Also , u surely know why NATSU used that ROCK......Considering BRADMAN's body is water or mixture , NATSU does not need that here at all.He is much stronger than before......

I expect DF Natsu to be very powerful but bringing that discussion isn't very fruitful as:

1) We can only speculate on DF Natsu
2) He'll likely be able to beat all of the Spriggans bar August and Irene (maybe DiMaria too) in that form

He doesn't have to eat to go DF, he can activate it by himself now but like I said above, discussion about his DF right now is pure speculation right now and isn't really usable in debates like this.

OK , leave DF aside..But u r sure aware of his power.He has not used it still doesn't mean he has lost it or he can't use it.......

So , yes , he can gain much power using DF....

As for gaining DF via eating, he has done it before but doing that with MBP's wouldn't be possible, it doesn't have any Ethernano whatsoever and thee's no excess fire in them either so eating them would be suicide.

I'm not too sure why you listed Laxus' lightning, that just gave him a new mode, not a DF.
Nope, burden of proof is on you here, prove or theorize why Natsu would be able to eat MBP's and go into DF without dying.

He actually does not need to eat that MBP at all...I have stated the reasons for that above.

I said LIGHTNING because that gives him practically much power than before...He can get enhancement in all departments tremendously as u already know..Surely that will make a great difference in fight........As for without dying , he has done it before which itself is the proof......

IF u want a reason why he can eat MBP , MASHIMA has made GAJEEL eat that . I don't think or see a reason why NATSU can't eat MBP........If u go by logic , then NATSU does not even need to eat MBP...He is the worst possible match for BRADMAN.......

U have given BRADMAN hax , then why not NATSU ? If u want to go logically , I will proceed so in which case NATSU doesn't even need to touch BRADMAN..By just avoiding his attacks & staying far away & sending attacks is enough.Even if BRADMAN absorbs that particles , he is committing suicide ..Countering will only work a while .....Even after that , he will crumble..IU have still not even counted the effects of electricity yet.

If by MASHIMA's logic , give GAJEEL some logical power up.......And NATSU some external power up.......He does not need it as u yoursel said above , he can activate DF at will now.....

No I won't say Bradman > Etherion but you don't seem to get why MBP's wouldn't power him up, in fact your Etherion argument helps me. Whilst Etherion has extremely high Magic Power, MBP feed on Ethernano, so when someone take them in it weakens their magic and begins to poison them.

Thanks a lot..U r actually acting mature .not like some idiot who does not even know the ranges of temperature for a same color flame & how high it can get with slight different color.......As for ingesting , I gave u the above reason.

Once again, the burden of proof is on you, this may be a hypothetical fight but we're doing this for a reason, you're trying to prove Natsu can beat Bradman whilst I'm arguing the opposite. The only difference right now is that I'm presenting evidence for my beliefs whilst you keep saying that you have no responsibility in showing me proof, which is a laughable thing to do in a debate as it completely defeats the purpose of a debate.

See friend , I have no interest in proving BRADMAN's capabilities...U want to prove them .U want people not to underestimate him....I have given u suggestion above ...So do that....

Still if u want to compare them on actual platform , bring some proofs on him being on the same level as ones NATSU have defeated....NATSU has feats which is my proof itself...If u want to compare them , u need to bring him on the same level by prooving he is better than INVEL or other S-12...U will need proof to bring him on that level or actually prove his level....WHY would I need proof for the feats itself ?

The burden was never on me..It is on u to at least establish the same platform where those 2 characters can be confirmed....

And , it is not a laughable thing.Laughable thing is that u ignore feats by using some words like using terms introduced by some non-sense characters....U ignore the whole post , do not confirm the questions that were asked there & avoid it but still use that terms....Laughable thing is the fact that u conveniently disregard the feat using BS because u did not like it........IN debate , u r using terms like BS & RESTRICTED without specifying questions regarding them that I asked on my post before.....

How convenient is it to blame others for defeating purposes when u do not even specify my queries , pick a single part , disregard the whole post ?
The purpose was defeated when u used the terms of a person who used that to downplay the character...And , yet u did not mention him (like as he said).
U took that as a legal standard and just threw away the credibility of that character.

So , I don't owe u anything..... U have the responsibility to bring him to a stage at which proofs can be provided so as to compare them.......I had given proofs before in the post of NATSU's powers & strengths..Do u expect me to do that again & again ?

I m sorry ...U should refer the previous posts properly........

 

[Brandish μ]

If Natsu isn't at least Spriggan level, then wtf is Spriggan level?

He proves it, twice, that he can drop a Spriggan with one solid tech. Who else can make that claim? There literally isn't anyone.

"Spriggan level" is also up for debate.

 

[Arjuna]

Everyone accepts Natsu is Spriggan even his most vehement haters or people who don't like him now.Only a microscopic part of people refuse to accept that.Sigh.Perhaps only Hiro sensei can make them believe.

 

[Kantos]

No, we're talking about Urano Metria and its limitations.



Command T magnification... Since Brandish can shrink and enlarge things at will, and after using magnification, I assume she made it bigger. I also see it bigger, but maybe due to the perspective (Lucy is farther than Brandish when they receive it).



I don't recall anything significant that proves Lucy is more durable than Juvia but this is me not recalling, I'm probably wrong here.



After re-reading that chapter, I only see a Gray and a Juvia who can't control their bodies. I don't see any indication that they are holding back...

Also the Gray that is fighting Juvia is not the same Gray that is fighting Invel. It's not that Juvia's got spriggan-level physical stats, the thing is that the Gray that is fighting Juvia is the same Gray that Invel was outright fodderizing. Gray is generally not spriggan-level, until PoF and PiS make him be.



Never implied that, but neither are Gray's. At least not the "usual" Gray.



No, this is Fairy Tail, PoF does increase stats as much as the author wants it. This has been proven over and over and over throughout the manga.



Maybe, but it's the truth. And you know it. There is a lot of bad writing and inconsistency in this manga, especially in this arc. Some things can just simply not be accounted for using common sense or potrayal.



Why? They were training for one year together their gap ought not to be huge. Base Gray shouldn't be more than one tier above Juvia, the thing is Base Gray has the DeS powerup and now he's got a supreme powerup which is the superangry powerup by which he can fodderize a spriggan... and I don't even know if he was using DeS or he was just super angry because the tatoos weren't there when he defeated Invel.



It seems. That is the key word. It seems that only MP was enhanced in Neinheart. It could very well be that. Or it could also be that Mashima decided that base Natsu became stronger than he was a few hours back, just because; and he could oneshot a spriggan whose durability is trash but it was enhanced to be "decent". Any of the two interpretations is acceptable.



I thought Keye's and Bradman's intangibility was total, that is, he can't be hurt by any attack no matter if it's physical or not. If that's incorrect then I was wrong, but I think it wasn't since I recall Juvia using water slicer repeatedly against him, and it going through his body.



Right, I don't know if Aqua Metria could take Keyes out but it may.



Juvia should now be pretty solidly on par with Lucy in terms of phisicality. Also spriggans were just introduced as monsters, in terms of MP, in terms of abilities and why not, in terms of phisicality. I don't recall any spriggan who couldn't do proficient cqc, except for Bradman maybe.



As aforementioned, if Key was only immune to physical attacks then right, but he can't be affected by magical attacks either.



You know, when I think of Bluenote I think of such a beast who could even go toe to toe with Glidartz, then I think that he was one-shot by Natsu and I seriously don't know how to compare him to other characters. So at first when I read "Lucy in the same tier as the likes of Bluenote" I was like: "OMG no way" but then I thought about it and it kind of makes sense.

Juvia being Tartaros Erza level seems legit to me, but I'd class Lucy around there too.



You need to understand Invel is as strong as most of the 9 non top tier spriggans. As you saw, Gray couldn't beat him until after Juvia's apparent death, where his feelings went overboard. As you very well know, feelings in this manga are power. It's not only implied it's actually been stated.

The Gray that defeated Invel is nowhere near the Gray pre-Ice Lock.

IMO that was not normal bloodlusting, but ok I respect your opinion. If you think Gray could've defeated Invel if the reason of his bloodlust had been different, then even base Gray classes way way higher than Erza. Erza couldn't defeat Ajeel on her own, and I think of Ajeel as an Invel in terms of phisicality, their magic being similar but of different element. I always considered Erza above Gray ever since we arrived at this arc, where I understand that Gray may've surpassed her. But after seeing Gray fight Invel and get wrecked I understood that Base Gray was not Erza level just yet. I thought: "In DeS mode, he must definetely be on par or superior to Erza". But nope, turns out he didn't use DeS to defeat Invel but bloodlust. Which makes me think: hey Erza hasn't been bloodlusted in this arc yet so heck, she may even be Irene level. No, that is bullshit. Spriggans were supposed to be too powerful for the main cast to solo them. The thing was, they were so strong that people were actually thinking of what teams would beat individual spriggans. But nope, now bloodlusted Gray can take Invel, base Natsu can casually one-shot an enhanced spriggan just because, and it is very likely that bloodlusted Erza will defeat Irene... just no.

And it hurts me to see you suggest that I wouldn't consider Natsu oneshotting a spriggan plot. Of COURSE it is plot, I've been defending that from the moment it happened. It's clear PiS.

Now anything after that is twisting my words. I think we have enough common sense to class what is PiS and what is not. Glidartz was always the strongest mage in FT, apply to him the same growth ratio that Ntasu or Gray have undergone, it's clear that Glidartz is still gonna be number 1. That is not plot (unless you consider power growth in this year of training plot in itself).



I don't see what makes you think that.

Exactly. Gray isn't the same person, because he's finally going all out now.

The MP surge in his overall body is the depiction of why his hair is flowing upwards. This is Gray's latent hidden potential, something that would explains why he was always to be someone of Natsu's portrayal in equality. This answers that question. That's this Gray version.

Invel fodderizing? Please tell me you are joking. You can't fodderize someone if you haven't damaged him. In chapter 498, Invel has yet to damage Gray. and before Ice Lock was made, Gray had the upperhand on Invel, to a point that the latter was grimacing in pain from his chest and face with a strike.
They were shown sparring with each other. You can spar with one another even if x character several tiers below you. It's just to test each other's strength by nerfing one down purposely.

So let's look it here:
Base Gray is a tier above Juvia
DeS Gray should be two tiers above Juvia, since DeS Gray is a tier above Base Gray.
The Gray that fought Invel should be 3 tiers above Juvia.(around spriggan level)

What was showed was that Gray also displayed to use DeS level attacks, and a tactic for Invel's defeat. He won't have it as easy if he fought a non-ice related spriggan since he won't have any resistance.. but he can still solo high diff against a spriggan that is around Invel level.
In the confronation of Gray vs Juvia in the Ice lock competition, Gray happened to dominate Juvia
-Punching her face
-Blocking her kick, and throwing her down like a rag doll.
-Twisting her leg around

Gray is generally not spriggan level? What makes you think that? Gray IS SPRIGGAN LEVEL!

Have you seen Gray go all out? Nope. So how you can you judge his power on a few panels and conveniently ignore what he did to Invel afterwards?

What Mashima showed is that Gray is generally spriggan level when blood lusted, infact it showed he's above some spriggan level characters given the way he pounded Invel using only his base fraction of his powers, with his hidden potential unlocked through rage. There was no PIS in the equation.. Just POF something that every character has used in their battles of victory.

Face it you just don't like the fact that the spriggans were defeated in a manner that you didn't like, and are using damage control to put fairy tail guild characters below their actual power level. Feat-wise, Gray has shown to solo a spriggan with pure strength, and CQC, and that puts him above some spriggans. Invel doesn't specialize in CQC, so there's no PIS.

Let's look at other comparables, DF Gajeel used POF in his battle against Bradman to solo mostly him with casual punches, does that mean DF Gajeel isn't spriggan level character? Blood lusted Jellal with POF (similar situation as Gray), oneshotted a spriggan. DOes that mean Jellal isn't a spriggan level character?

Tell me who from FT guild is a spriggan level character? Because it's so apparent that Gray, Gajeel (DF), Natsu, and Laxus are spriggan level characters.
I would rank Invel as a mid tier spriggan, on the same tier as Wahl and Ajeel.

Precisely. The Gray that defeated Invel was him going all out. The Gray that fought Invel in the beginning wasn't going all out. That's the difference between the two versions of Gray.

It's no different than any other blood lust. The reason of Invel's defeat is the fact that Gray had resistance to him+ Blood lust+ Pof and being more specializing in CQC. No PIS/CIS. We can also use portrayal to scale a character, so Base Gray would still be below Erza, but overall Gray should be above Erza.

Feats determine a character's strength. and what we saw is this version of Gray show off his strength toward Invel.
So even if by your definition is plot, and PIS, are you going to suggest Natsu isn't spriggan level either?

Still doesn't change the fact that plot made Gildartz this strong. Plot made Gildartz portrayed to be above Natsu or Gray. The point is that plot determines every small thing in this manga, so to use it now against a character's feats, is filmsy excuse of a reasoning.

Anyways, point stands. Fact is Gray is viewed and portrayed to be SPRIGGAN LEVEL.

 

[Woodenstool]

If Natsu isn't at least Spriggan level, then wtf is Spriggan level?

He proves it, twice, that he can drop a Spriggan with one solid tech. Who else can make that claim? There literally isn't anyone.

"Spriggan level" is also up for debate.

Neinhart was going to be one shotted by Erza that's why he scared of going after her.

Jacob couldn't fight back because of gravity and plot. And Natsus opponents don't move, but Erza ones does.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 15, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 15, 2016 ---

Everyone accepts Natsu is Spriggan even his most vehement haters or people who don't like him now.Only a microscopic part of people refuse to accept that.Sigh.Perhaps only Hiro sensei can make them believe.

An appeal to popularity fallacy, just because 99% agrees doesn't mean it's right bud.

 

[Indira]

So now that we seen two integral characters in Lucy and Gray receiving feats.

Gray: confirmed spriggan level. The way he massacred Invel shows that he can give myriad of spriggans a tough fight. I no longer have to use scaling and hype now in ny arguments of Gray being stronger than Erza. Feats showed Gray soloing a spriggan onesided manner while Erza got fucked in the ass by one. Safe to say Gray can kick Erzas ass now *smug face*

Lucy: Shes now ahead of Freed Juvia and Elfman. Aquarimetro is her strongest attack and doesnt take much casting time to use it. Prior to this chapter she was equal to those three. Shes closing in on Mirajane now but still has long way to go to reach her tier. This chapter was a good start for combat feats from Lucy. She can move up depending on how she fares against Dimaria.

 

[Raven]

Everyone accepts Natsu is Spriggan even his most vehement haters or people who don't like him now.Only a microscopic part of people refuse to accept that.Sigh.Perhaps only Hiro sensei can make them believe.

Actually to debate over the obvious is a mistake, i agree Natsu ain't a spriggan level. He is above spriggan level by a great margin.

 

[Woodenstool]

Actually to debate over the obvious is a mistake, i agree Natsu ain't a spriggan level. He is above spriggan level by a great margin.

That's why Brandish can literally end him in seconds if they fought. Shrink all his attacks lol.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 15, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 15, 2016 ---

So now that we seen two integral characters in Lucy and Gray receiving feats.

Gray: confirmed spriggan level. The way he massacred Invel shows that he can give myriad of spriggans a tough fight. I no longer have to use scaling and hype now in ny arguments of Gray being stronger than Erza. Feats showed Gray soloing a spriggan onesided manner while Erza got fucked in the ass by one. Safe to say Gray can kick Erzas ass now *smug face*

Lucy: Shes now ahead of Freed Juvia and Elfman. Aquarimetro is her strongest attack and doesnt take much casting time to use it. Prior to this chapter she was equal to those three. Shes closing in on Mirajane now but still has long way to go to reach her tier. This chapter was a good start for combat feats from Lucy. She can move up depending on how she fares against Dimaria.

Gray is not spriggan level, Invel didn't even try against him. He simply put ice armor on and blocked a punch, it took time to break it but in that little time, Invel could've punched Gray. He only won due to plot and the enemies being restricted to Fairys tail favor.

 

[Static]

That's why Brandish can literally end him in seconds if they fought. Shrink all his attacks lol.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 15, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 15, 2016 ---

Gray is not spriggan level, Invel didn't even try against him. He simply put ice armor on and blocked a punch, it took time to break it but in that little time, Invel could've punched Gray. He only won due to plot and the enemies being restricted to Fairys tail favor.

Not to mention, Gray won due to the PoF bullshit.

 

[Kantos]

That's why Brandish can literally end him in seconds if they fought. Shrink all his attacks lol.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 15, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 15, 2016 ---

Gray is not spriggan level, Invel didn't even try against him. He simply put ice armor on and blocked a punch, it took time to break it but in that little time, Invel could've punched Gray. He only won due to plot and the enemies being restricted to Fairys tail favor.

>Invel didn't try against him.
>Natsu and Gray aren't spriggan level

Can you be anymore wrong?

Invel was shitting his pants, and going all out and still got dominated. That shows Gray is spriggan level.

Not to mention, Gray won due to the PoF bullshit.

You got to be kidding me? You actually agree to that shit? POF is legit in every battle.

Apparently Natsu is spriggan level in your mind but Gray isn't? What is this blatant level of downplay. I expect better from you atleast.

How can some people on here be so in-comprehensive?

 

[Woodenstool]

So now that we seen two integral characters in Lucy and Gray receiving feats.

Gray: confirmed spriggan level. The way he massacred Invel shows that he can give myriad of spriggans a tough fight. I no longer have to use scaling and hype now in ny arguments of Gray being stronger than Erza. Feats showed Gray soloing a spriggan onesided manner while Erza got fucked in the ass by one. Safe to say Gray can kick Erzas ass now *smug face*

Lucy: Shes now ahead of Freed Juvia and Elfman. Aquarimetro is her strongest attack and doesnt take much casting time to use it. Prior to this chapter she was equal to those three. Shes closing in on Mirajane now but still has long way to go to reach her tier. This chapter was a good start for combat feats from Lucy. She can move up depending on how she fares against Dimaria.

Lucy newe Mirajane? Wow bud, just because she can spawn a wave of water doesn't mean she's strong. Water is arguably the most useless thing to use In a fight.

 

[Arjuna]

After chapter 500 i think we shouldn't discuss whether Natsu or Gray is Spriggan level or not but where should we put them.Mid Tier Spriggan level or High Tier Spriggan level?