Again, plain ignorance of the manga. Natsu was holding back against Ajeel's lackey because he was trying to save his energy. If you bother to read that section again you'll see that later Natsu punches him into the sky and through a fucking ship.
Hilarious. And I guess the bruises and damage on Gildarts' face after fighting fodder in the latest chapter are just for aesthetic appeal?
3. Natsu uses fire infused punches to make it stronger. Gildarts wasn't using magic empowered punches and blew holes in a mountain without touching it. It looked like a gag scene.
Gildarts has marks on his face, does that imply he's weak?
Natsu isn't exactly fighting a million soldiers. He used one spell, ran to Invel, got captured and moved away from the soldiers, moved to a building with Dimaria with no soldiers. Everyone else been fighting off a million soldiers. You realize how many people that is?
Fire Dragon King Mode was never portrayed to be stronger than Gray's Ice Devil Slaying Magic... In fact, neither are even related as far the manga is concerned. I don't know where you got that information from.
Based on what we've seen, it'ss fair to say that DeS Gray is at least on par with FDKM Natsu. Last chapter, we saw Gray block/tank an attack from E.N.D. I don't care to argue whether this was the full extent of E.N.D's power or not but what I can tell you is that E.N.D > FDKM. It doesn't matter which stage E.N.D is in right now, it is still better than anything we've seen from FDKM Natsu.
Calling Gray's victory against Invel, PoF, is heavily biased. If anything, Natsu destroying Neinhart and saying that they will do whatever it takes to get back to the guild has more to do with Nakama power. Also, the fact that Natsu used FDKM against Jacob means that Natsu felt it was necessary in order to beat him.
Well that's not necessarily true. Gray beating Invel could very well be PoF considering his performance eariler against him before the whole Ice Lock thing. The same can't be said for Natsu, as there's no indication that Natsu would have fared any differently against Neinhart without his whole nakama shpeal.
Gray has traded like two blows with a Natsu that is trying to contain his END powers and trying to maintain control. You'll notice that the black flames that surrounded Natsu in the last chapter have all but disappeared in the latest one, implying that END's power is being held back. I actually think this makes Natsu weaker rather than stronger because having to fight two fights at the same time (against Gray and against END taking over) could easily explain why his performance against Gray was less than impressive. Meanwhile, Gray has completely lost it and he's been taken over by the desire to kill END and he's definitely going all out. So I don't think it's quite fair to use this fight in Gray's favor.
If Natsu needed FDKM to beat Jacob it wouldn't have taken only one shot. Did he need it to oneshot Jacob? Perhaps. But the fact that one attack from FDKM was enough to take out Jacob means that Natsu still probably would have beaten Jacob in base, just with more attacks. Not to mention the fact that Natsu might have gone FDKM out of rage, or maybe he was just eager to go all out after having to hold back for so long.
But that's the point. Fairy Tail is not a logical manga. It's a fantasy Shounen and Natsu is the main character. I don't need a better argument because it's true. Hiro will never allow him to lose to DiMaria because he has bigger fish to fry. Natsu has surpassed many of the characters on that list of yours (sometimes more than once). I don't really understand where your argument is coming from. Do you think that Fairy Tail is such a linear storyline that the characters never improve, forever being unable to surpass those of greater ability?
You can't use bad story writing as an counter argument for power scaling. Natsu isn't exchanging blows with Laxus let alone Gildarts who's angry punches destroy mountains.
Well that's not necessarily true. Gray beating Invel could very well be PoF considering his performance eariler against him before the whole Ice Lock thing. The same can't be said for Natsu, as there's no indication that Natsu would have fared any differently against Neinhart without his whole nakama shpeal.
Gray has traded like two blows with a Natsu that is trying to contain his END powers and trying to maintain control. You'll notice that the black flames that surrounded Natsu in the last chapter have all but disappeared in the latest one, implying that END's power is being held back. I actually think this makes Natsu weaker rather than stronger because having to fight two fights at the same time (against Gray and against END taking over) could easily explain why his performance against Gray was less than impressive. Meanwhile, Gray has completely lost it and he's been taken over by the desire to kill END and he's definitely going all out. So I don't think it's quite fair to use this fight in Gray's favor.
If Natsu needed FDKM to beat Jacob it wouldn't have taken only one shot. Did he need it to oneshot Jacob? Perhaps. But the fact that one attack from FDKM was enough to take out Jacob means that Natsu still probably would have beaten Jacob in base, just with more attacks. Not to mention the fact that Natsu might have gone FDKM out of rage, or maybe he was just eager to go all out after having to hold back for so long.
You can't use bad story writing as an counter argument for power scaling. Natsu isn't exchanging blows with Laxus let alone Gildarts who's angry punches destroy mountains.
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Jacob goes invisible and kill Natsu, who has the power now?
Fairy Tail's power scalings are broken anyway, so that in itself doesn't mean much
Mountain busting punches aren't as impressive as you like to make them out to be
Nope, try again. We've seen previously that Natsu in Dragon Force has better speed feats than Erza in the Tartarus arc, so I don't see why that wouldn't relate to here as well. Erza only has one armour that increases her speed anyway, and I doubt Natsu wouldn't keep up with that, especially if he used Dragon Force. Plus, it goes without saying that speed isn't everything.
Nope, try again. Gray has never shown himself to be faster unless you've got panels of him moving faster than Dragon Force Natsu. And he's the best counter to Natsu's abilities? No no no, Ice doesn't even stack up well against Fire so I don't know why you think that. Even Gray acknowledges Ice is bad against fire against Wall's weakness robots, here I'll show you the panels:
That right there makes your argument for Gray moot. With the elemental disadvantage no feats of him ever increasing his speed with the magic he's using, the claims you made for Gray are baseless.
Well that's not necessarily true. Gray beating Invel could very well be PoF considering his performance eariler against him before the whole Ice Lock thing. The same can't be said for Natsu, as there's no indication that Natsu would have fared any differently against Neinhart without his whole nakama shpeal.
That is false. The reason why Gray defeated Invel was because he used Ice Devil's Zeroth: Destruction Fist which is a higher level spell than Ice Devil's Zeroth: Longsword (as shown). In addition, he molded Invel's ice and used it against him which makes it more effective. Nothing here suggests PoF.
Natsu, on the other hand, was somewhat PoF. He couldn't defeat Jacob in Base Mode and resorted to FDKM plus a FDK attack. However, against Neinhart, he defeated him with a casual punch in Base Mode. Obviously, something here doesn't make sense and the only answer to that is the Power of Friendship.
Gray has traded like two blows with a Natsu that is trying to contain his END powers and trying to maintain control. You'll notice that the black flames that surrounded Natsu in the last chapter have all but disappeared in the latest one, implying that END's power is being held back. I actually think this makes Natsu weaker rather than stronger because having to fight two fights at the same time (against Gray and against END taking over) could easily explain why his performance against Gray was less than impressive. Meanwhile, Gray has completely lost it and he's been taken over by the desire to kill END and he's definitely going all out. So I don't think it's quite fair to use this fight in Gray's favor.
Natsu was not trying to maintain control at all. The user I replied to as well as you claim that Juvia's death resulted in Gray's anger. I can say the same for Natsu. After he saw Lucy's condition, he went berserk. It is clear that he lost control of himself to the point his body is starting to demonize and his flames are changing color.
As for Natsu's aura, that is stretching... Just because it disappeared, it doesn't mean Natsu got weaker. This has happened many times before especially in other mangas. Take Dragon Ball as an example. The first time that Super Saiyan was shown, we saw its shiny aura. But as the character starts fighting, it starts to disappear and all you see is the golden hair. The point of the aura is to show that the character got stronger. It doesn't need to be present to show us that they still maintained that level of power. For example, first time Natsu went FDKM you saw the flames burning around him. But it doesn't stay there when he fights.
If Natsu needed FDKM to beat Jacob it wouldn't have taken only one shot. Did he need it to oneshot Jacob? Perhaps. But the fact that one attack from FDKM was enough to take out Jacob means that Natsu still probably would have beaten Jacob in base, just with more attacks. Not to mention the fact that Natsu might have gone FDKM out of rage, or maybe he was just eager to go all out after having to hold back for so long.
It doesn't matter if it is a one-shot or not. It is still inconsistent. Natsu used FDKM and a FDK spell to defeat Jacob who is still alive. However, when Natsu used a casual attack in Base Mode, Neinhart was totally fodderized. Even if Natsu could beat Jacob with more than just one attack in Base Mode, it doesn't change the fact that Neinhart was still one-shotted. As far as I'm concerned, both are around the same level and to argue that Jacob is a lot stronger would take quite a bit of proof.
And we've seen Natsu can move around in that time, so better mages such as August and Irene should be able to as well.'
Crash isn't everything when it comes to battles, so I don't know why you think it is.
And? I don't see why an element/type of magic is such a big deal.
Nope, try again. We've seen previously that Natsu in Dragon Force has better speed feats than Erza in the Tartarus arc, so I don't see why that wouldn't relate to here as well. Erza only has one armour that increases her speed anyway, and I doubt Natsu wouldn't keep up with that, especially if he used Dragon Force. Plus, it goes without saying that speed isn't everything.
Nope, try again. Gray has never shown himself to be faster unless you've got panels of him moving faster than Dragon Force Natsu. And he's the best counter to Natsu's abilities? No no no, Ice doesn't even stack up well against Fire so I don't know why you think that. Even Gray acknowledges Ice is bad against fire against Wall's weakness robots, here I'll show you the panels:
That right there makes your argument for Gray moot. With the elemental disadvantage no feats of him ever increasing his speed with the magic he's using, the claims you made for Gray are baseless.
Ajeel's troops? Natsu said he was holding back there, so I don't see what point you're trying to prove here.
I said Divine ice. You remember what I told your friend Brandish right?
You find the proof yourself, but since you couldn't read what was right in front of you.
Grays feats for speed - Invel fight
Erza speed- When they ran to fight troops and Ajeel fight
Natsu speed- None
Laxus- nearly kills a spriggan 12 with a swipe of his hand
Gildarts- I'm guessing you didn't read ice trail. Read back a few a pages of this thread and you'll find feats.
Dimaria- END countered, not Natsu and you're using Natsu not END.
Natsu was holding back but still doesn't make him stronger than Gildarts who blows holes in mountains.
Your first sentence has no proof since it was END. I caught you, ice has a weakness to fire but fire doesn't have one vise versa?
Can you read or are you just broken like the other guy? Sorry op.
I said Divine ice. You remember what I told your friend Brandish right?
You find the proof yourself, but since you couldn't read what was right in front of you.
Grays feats for speed - Invel fight
Erza speed- When they ran to fight troops and Ajeel fight
Natsu speed- None
Laxus- nearly kills a spriggan 12 with a swipe of his hand
Gildarts- I'm guessing you didn't read ice trail. Read back a few a pages of this thread and you'll find feats.
Dimaria- END countered, not Natsu and you're using Natsu not END.
Natsu was holding back but still doesn't make him stronger than Gildarts who blows holes in mountains.
Your first sentence has no proof since it was END. I caught you, ice has a weakness to fire but fire doesn't have one vise versa? You are bias. I'm leave this conversation with you.
Fire having a weakness to Ice? Dude your logic is as broken as Fairy Tail's
In the whole series, Gray has never utilised the water in his own ice, because he can't control it as an Ice Mage. Fire melts Ice. Ice doesn't freeze Fire...
That is false. The reason why Gray defeated Invel was because he used Ice Devil's Zeroth: Destruction Fist which is a higher level spell than Ice Devil's Zeroth: Longsword (as shown). In addition, he molded Invel's ice and used it against him. Nothing here suggests PoF.
What suggests PoF here is the vast difference in performance between Gray prior to Juvia's death and Gray after Juvia's death. Invel went from tanking a Zeroth Longsword to getting demolished by base punches. That to me is too large of a power leap to not be PoF.
Natsu, on the other hand, was somewhat PoF. He couldn't defeat Jacob in Base Mode and resorted to FDKM plus a FDK attack. However, against Neinhart, he defeated him with a casual punch in Base Mode. Obviously, something here doesn't make sense here and the only answer to that is the Power of Friendship.
Natsu was not trying to maintain control at all. The user I replied to as well as you claim that Juvia's death resulted in Gray's anger. I can say the same for Natsu. After he saw Lucy's condition, he went berserk. It is clear that he lost control of himself to the point his body is starting to demonize and his flames are changing color.
As for Natsu's aura, that is stretching... Just because it disappeared, it doesn't mean Natsu got weaker. This has happened many times before especially in other mangas. Take Dragon Ball as an example. The first time that Super Saiyan was shown, we saw its shiny aura. But as the character starts fighting, it starts to disappear and all you see is the golden hair. The point of the aura is to show that the character got stronger. It doesn't need to be present to show us that they still maintained that level of power. For example, first time Natsu went FDKM you saw the flames burning around him. But it doesn't stay there when he fights.
It's not a stretch because it's not the same thing as a magical aura. Natsu had actual physical flames around him in the previous chapter and it doesn't make sense for them to just disappear without reason.
Natsu physically exhausted himself against Zeref which is why the flames around him when he first went FDKM went out.
It doesn't matter if it is a one-shot or not. It is still inconsistent. Natsu used FDKM and a FDK spell to defeat Jacob who is still alive. However, when Natsu used a casual attack in Base Mode, Neinhart was totally fodderized. Even if Natsu could beat Jacob with more than just one attack in Base Mode, it doesn't change the fact that Neinhart was still one-shotted. As far as I'm concerned, both are around the same level and to argue that Jacob is a lot stronger would take quite a bit of proof.
Well you have to take into consideration that Jacob and Neinhart are far from the same kind of mages. Jacob is an assassin, and as such he excels in physicality and CQC. Neinhart is more of a support mage and his magic is not exactly suited for direct physical combat. So I think it's reasonable to suggest that Jacob's durability is a lot higher than Neinhart's considering the different ways each of them fight and the different roles each of them play.
Is this topic seriously up for discussion? No, seriously, please don't tell me that people still somehow believe Natsu>Gray
The latest chapter literally set things in stone for fans of both sides and this is still being discussed
Gray did not use POF to defeat Invel, Invel was overwhelming Gray in base, the same way Lessio was overwhelming Natsu in the Guild Hall in base, so those two check out.
Once Gray used the black markings, he began overwhelming Invel and the only reason that he was able to use Ice Lock in the first place was because Brandish showed up at the right time and provided a distraction long enough for Invel to cast the technique on Gray...remove Brandish from the fight and it would have been decided much earlier..
Once Juvia 'died', Gray simply went back to business and overwhelmed Invel in CQC, there is no room for that POF argument most people seem to be fond of using just to downplay Gray...
So yes Current Base Gray=Current Base Natsu
DeS Gray=FDKM Natsu
Darkness Gray= E.N.D Natsu
I said Divine ice. You remember what I told your friend Brandish right?
You find the proof yourself, but since you couldn't read what was right in front of you.
Grays feats for speed - Invel fight
Erza speed- When they ran to fight troops and Ajeel fight
Natsu speed- None
Laxus- nearly kills a spriggan 12 with a swipe of his hand
Gildarts- I'm guessing you didn't read ice trail. Read back a few a pages of this thread and you'll find feats.
Dimaria- END countered, not Natsu and you're using Natsu not END.
Natsu was holding back but still doesn't make him stronger than Gildarts who blows holes in mountains.
Your first sentence has no proof since it was END. I caught you, ice has a weakness to fire but fire doesn't have one vise versa?
Since when does Gray have Divine Ice? To my knowledge, he doesn't have Invel's True Ice Kamui.
Gray and Erza's speed feats? Natsu's shown better when he fought Zeref, heck even his speed against Mard Geer when he used Dragon Force was better.
There is no proof Laxus would've killed, heck even severely injured Ajeel. Yes, August protected Ajeel but there is no actual proof Ajeel would've been done in by that.
Ice Trail is canon so I don't see why I should take any notice of that when it holds no weight in discussion about the actual Fairy Tail manga.
As said in 504, Natsu started transforming into E.N.D after he punched Dimaria out. Yes, it is a bit unclear which is the case but the point is that it is still Natsu there holding Lucy's body afterwards, which means there is a possibility it was Natsu who broke out.
As for Gildarts and mountains, you're implying mountains are great when it comes to durability. I doubt they're actually that durable when being hit with magic that is meant to break things up. Yes, that is right. Gildarts' magic breaks things up, that is why those hills broke up, not because of Gildarts' actual power.
No proof? If anything, we can assume that magic power is a factor in whether Age Seal will work on someone. If Natsu could move around in it, why shouldn't mages who are stronger and have more magic power like August and Irene also be able to move around?
Is this topic seriously up for discussion? No, seriously, please don't tell me that people still somehow believe Natsu>Gray
The latest chapter literally set things in stone for fans of both sides and this is still being discussed
Gray did not use POF to defeat Invel, Invel was overwhelming Gray in base, the same way Lessio was overwhelming Natsu in the Guild Hall in base, so those two check out.
Once Gray used the black markings, he began overwhelming Invel and the only reason that he was able to use Ice Lock in the first place was because Brandish showed up at the right time and provided a distraction long enough for Invel to cast the technique on Gray...remove Brandish from the fight and it would have been decided much earlier..
Once Juvia 'died', Gray simply went back to business and overwhelmed Invel in CQC,
Natsu is above Gray, Natsu has shown he's got the greater attack power, hence he'd be above Gray in power rankings. The latest chapter showed Natsu holding back, we even saw his clawed hands go back to normal so that suggests he's trying to hold the demonic power back. If Natsu wasn't holding back like you're suggesting, then why hasn't he actually used any techniques that he otherwise would have?
And yes, Gray did use Power of Friendship against Invel, that is undeniable. He literally went from getting bested by Invel in CQC to being able to punch him around like he was dead weight, only PoF can explain that.
Those two don't check out when Natsu was holding back against Jacob in the guild hall while Gray wasn't holding back against Invel.
We've also seen Invel cast Ice Lock in an instant on Mavis, so even if Brandish didn't intervene he could've clicked his fingers and boom, Ice Lock.
You're only looking at one field here mate, just because Natsu has the better attack power doesn't mean he's overall stronger than Gray, I will give you that Natsu's attack power is extraordinary, but that's not all that goes when assessing two mages..
By those grounds I could say that Gray is more intellectually gifted than Natsu so that makes him stronger than Natsu, see how foolhardy that sounds?
The latest chapter showed Natsu holding back, we even saw his clawed hands go back to normal so that suggests he's trying to hold the demonic power back. If Natsu wasn't holding back like you're suggesting, then why hasn't he actually used any techniques that he otherwise would have?
Gray is also holding back, dude, his marks have only gone on half his body, that's pretty much him not going all out so yes, both of them haven't reached their peak yet in the current fight and even when they reach their peak, they'll still be pretty much on the same level, so that argument falls flat on its face.
And yes, Gray did use Power of Friendship against Invel, that is undeniable. He literally went from getting bested by Invel in CQC to being able to punch him around like he was dead weight, only PoF can explain that.
Dude, do you even know what CQC means? WTF, Invel never used CQC in the fight, he doesn't even have any skills in CQC since most of his techniques are long to mid range, the only field he was besting Gray in is with magic and that was when Gray was in base form, in DeS the tables turned tremendously, so no, Invel was never besting Gray anywhere.
That was Ice Slave, and might I remind you Mavis was occupied with talking to Zeref? She was as much distracted as Gray was when Brandish suddenly appeared in the battlefield to take Natsu, Lucy and Happy, so no, that move won't be cast in an 'instant' .
What suggests PoF here is the vast difference in performance between Gray prior to Juvia's death and Gray after Juvia's death. Invel went from tanking a Zeroth Longsword to getting demolished by base punches. That to me is too large of a power leap to not be PoF.
Again, the power gap was caused by the fact that Gray used an entirely different spell as well as the fact that he was able to change the properties of his ice. That is a legitimate feat.
I'm not talking about inside the guild hall though. I understand he was holding back there. What I mean is when Makarov threw Natsu and Jacob out of the guild hall. Natsu could have just defeated Jacob without going FDKM or using a FDK spell. But he didn't. The only logical explanation for this is that Natsu felt it was necessary to use FDKM in order to defeat Jacob. Saying he did this out of anger is not valid because he was angry at Neinhart, yet he still didn't use FDKM.
It's not a stretch because it's not the same thing as a magical aura. Natsu had actual physical flames around him in the previous chapter and it doesn't make sense for them to just disappear without reason.
Natsu physically exhausted himself against Zeref which is why the flames around him when he first went FDKM went out.
Well you have to take into consideration that Jacob and Neinhart are far from the same kind of mages. Jacob is an assassin, and as such he excels in physicality and CQC. Neinhart is more of a support mage and his magic is not exactly suited for direct physical combat. So I think it's reasonable to suggest that Jacob's durability is a lot higher than Neinhart's considering the different ways each of them fight and the different roles each of them play.
Not really. I mean if we go by the fact that Neinhart is a support mage which is why he has low durability, I can say that Jacob is an assassin and usually assassins don't excel at defense. It doesn't matter though. This is Enhanced Neinhart we're talking about. That is why I'm even more skeptical of Natsu's power level.
I don't know what has possessed people to say Gray is going all out while Natsu has been holding back.
I don't see a shred of evidence or proof that supports that argument.
Just because somebody doesn't vocally say "they are holding back", it doesn't mean that they aren't.
Not everybody is a loudmouth you know... Some people prefer to be reserved when they fight, for tactical and strategic reasons...
Gray has not even used a named spell, just like Natsu. So I don't know how you can say Gray is going remotely all out unless you are outright trying to downplay somebody.
I hope you all realize that if a single DeS spell from Gray connects with Natsu, that will cause severe and major damage.
It's practically Natsu's kryptonite...
By the way, where are all the people who said "Wahl was beaten because his weakness is lightning"?
By that logic above, you should be supporting DeS Gray >> END...
Gray has chosen not to use DeS spells for a reason... he isn't even using 20% of his full power...
@Axiomus Good points man. I personally put Bradman as lower than JBI/DF Gajeel but mostly due to speed and power, though I hold my view that the former was more important. My scale would probably be:
JBI/DF Gajeel > Bradman >> Gajeel
Which thinking about it does make sense given that in the OS arc it was stated by Natsu that he felt like he had 3x more power. I still think that Bradman could beat a majority of opponents through his hax but when people outclass him in a majority of fields (or have deadlier hax like DiMaria) I think it's fair to rank them above him, as it isn't saying they could beat him in a fight, they're just more deadly/powerful against a non-hax opponent.
You're only looking at one field here mate, just because Natsu has the better attack power doesn't mean he's overall stronger than Gray, I will give you that Natsu's attack power is extraordinary, but that's not all that goes when assessing two mages..
By those grounds I could say that Gray is more intellectually gifted than Natsu so that makes him stronger than Natsu, see how foolhardy that sounds?
Well, when it comes to power rankings, attack power certainly plays a big part. Yes, it isn't everything but it is one of the more notable criteria to assess. Yes, Gray does have good intellect, but that isn't always going to get you out of a tough spot unlike attack power where if you hit the other guy hard enough they'll be driven back a bit and/or put out of commission given how strong the attack is compared to their durability, and durability is something that Natsu has also shown to have over Gray.
If we break down the areas we'd be looking to assess, there's Attack Power, Durability, Speed, Magic Power, Versatility and Intelligence. Now, I'd say Natsu has shown to have the better Attack Power, Durability, Speed and Versatility (Fire and Lightning > Ice). Gray has intelligence, and as for magic power well that is a bit debatable but at the same time you have Natsu who trained seriously for 10+ months compared to Gray who worked and trained casually for 6 months, so that could possibly be another area Natsu beats Gray in.
Gray is also holding back, dude, his marks have only gone on half his body, that's pretty much him not going all out so yes, both of them haven't reached their peak yet in the current fight and even when they reach their peak, they'll still be pretty much on the same level, so that argument falls flat on its face.
As the man known as John Cena once said, are you sure about that? At the same time, he's outright stated he has the intent to kill Natsu there so forgive me if I find it a bit harder to believe Gray is holding back to the extent Natsu is. Yes, he could be holding back a little bit, but I doubt it is as much as Natsu who wouldn't want to hurt his comrades and the claws he had going have seemed to have disappeared, so he's at least managing to hold back a decent amount in trying not to hurt Gray and fight the transformation.
Yes, neither of them have reached their peak in the current fight but from what we've seen in other fights, it is undeniable that when it comes to power, Natsu is the stronger of the two. He's two-shotted Neinhart in base, taken Jacob out with one attack when he was serious and he (or E.N.D) has taken out Dimaria fairly easily. Compared to Gray who pushed past Invel with some PoF, Natsu has the better feats.
That was Ice Slave, and might I remind you Mavis was occupied with talking to Zeref? She was as much distracted as Gray was when Brandish suddenly appeared in the battlefield to take Natsu, Lucy and Happy, so no, that move won't be cast in an 'instant' .
Well after doing some digging, yes the two are referred to by different names but they both serve the same purpose in a sense where they make the target(s) lose their mind, so they are essentially one and the same. Perhaps the different names are to define it between one and the other, where one makes you lose your mind and forces you to kill the other person you are attached to while the other just makes you lose your mind (unable to hold rational thoughts). But nonetheless, both are parallels where the mages have been somewhat distracted before he cast the magic, although Mavis was actually frozen solid instead of just being talked to at that point, so I doubt the cast times are too different.
Again, Natsu was holding back against Jacob when he was in the guild. If Natsu didn't hold right back like he did, Jacob might've had a rougher time with Base Natsu.
Since when does Gray have Divine Ice? To my knowledge, he doesn't have Invel's True Ice Kamui.
Gray and Erza's speed feats? Natsu's shown better when he fought Zeref, heck even his speed against Mard Geer when he used Dragon Force was better.
There is no proof Laxus would've killed, heck even severely injured Ajeel. Yes, August protected Ajeel but there is no actual proof Ajeel would've been done in by that.
Ice Trail is canon so I don't see why I should take any notice of that when it holds no weight in discussion about the actual Fairy Tail manga.
As said in 504, Natsu started transforming into E.N.D after he punched Dimaria out. Yes, it is a bit unclear which is the case but the point is that it is still Natsu there holding Lucy's body afterwards, which means there is a possibility it was Natsu who broke out.
As for Gildarts and mountains, you're implying mountains are great when it comes to durability. I doubt they're actually that durable when being hit with magic that is meant to break things up. Yes, that is right. Gildarts' magic breaks things up, that is why those hills broke up, not because of Gildarts' actual power.
No proof? If anything, we can assume that magic power is a factor in whether Age Seal will work on someone. If Natsu could move around in it, why shouldn't mages who are stronger and have more magic power like August and Irene also be able to move around?
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Natsu is above Gray, Natsu has shown he's got the greater attack power, hence he'd be above Gray in power rankings. The latest chapter showed Natsu holding back, we even saw his clawed hands go back to normal so that suggests he's trying to hold the demonic power back. If Natsu wasn't holding back like you're suggesting, then why hasn't he actually used any techniques that he otherwise would have?
And yes, Gray did use Power of Friendship against Invel, that is undeniable. He literally went from getting bested by Invel in CQC to being able to punch him around like he was dead weight, only PoF can explain that.
Those two don't check out when Natsu was holding back against Jacob in the guild hall while Gray wasn't holding back against Invel.
We've also seen Invel cast Ice Lock in an instant on Mavis, so even if Brandish didn't intervene he could've clicked his fingers and boom, Ice Lock.
Since when does Gray have Divine Ice? To my knowledge, he doesn't have Invel's True Ice Kamui.
Gray and Erza's speed feats? Natsu's shown better when he fought Zeref, heck even his speed against Mard Geer when he used Dragon Force was better.
There is no proof Laxus would've killed, heck even severely injured Ajeel. Yes, August protected Ajeel but there is no actual proof Ajeel would've been done in by that.
Ice Trail is canon so I don't see why I should take any notice of that when it holds no weight in discussion about the actual Fairy Tail manga.
As said in 504, Natsu started transforming into E.N.D after he punched Dimaria out. Yes, it is a bit unclear which is the case but the point is that it is still Natsu there holding Lucy's body afterwards, which means there is a possibility it was Natsu who broke out.
As for Gildarts and mountains, you're implying mountains are great when it comes to durability. I doubt they're actually that durable when being hit with magic that is meant to break things up. Yes, that is right. Gildarts' magic breaks things up, that is why those hills broke up, not because of Gildarts' actual power.
No proof? If anything, we can assume that magic power is a factor in whether Age Seal will work on someone. If Natsu could move around in it, why shouldn't mages who are stronger and have more magic power like August and Irene also be able to move around?
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Natsu is above Gray, Natsu has shown he's got the greater attack power, hence he'd be above Gray in power rankings. The latest chapter showed Natsu holding back, we even saw his clawed hands go back to normal so that suggests he's trying to hold the demonic power back. If Natsu wasn't holding back like you're suggesting, then why hasn't he actually used any techniques that he otherwise would have?
And yes, Gray did use Power of Friendship against Invel, that is undeniable. He literally went from getting bested by Invel in CQC to being able to punch him around like he was dead weight, only PoF can explain that.
Those two don't check out when Natsu was holding back against Jacob in the guild hall while Gray wasn't holding back against Invel.
We've also seen Invel cast Ice Lock in an instant on Mavis, so even if Brandish didn't intervene he could've clicked his fingers and boom, Ice Lock.
i don't remember the exact quote but Incel said he's molding ice with the same properties as his ice armor.
That's he whole point of why Gildarts is strong. His magic breaks magic that are on the scale of mountains. If he's able to do that he can breaks spells that are comparable in size. His enemies don't stand a chance against him if he just keeps breaking all their spells. They're going to be forced to fight him up close and it's going to be hard to dodge someone who can throw 13 punches instantaneously in a normal not giving a shit mindset.
I really don't know how else anyone can explain Gray beating Invel without using a form of emotional power. It's either PoF, or darkness/negative emotions. Invel spent a couple of panels in ch 498 hyping that latter emotional power. You only need to look at the recent chapter to see what Gray's emotional state is like. The Invel fight also made it clear that Gray wasn't in Natsu's class, and he got a power-up to bridge the gap between the 2.
Again, the power gap was caused by the fact that Gray used an entirely different spell as well as the fact that he was able to change the properties of his ice. That is a legitimate feat.
I'm not referring to the attack that took Invel out though, I'm referring to the all the base punches with no magic whatsoever that Invel got decimated by and yet he was able to tank Gray's Zeroth Longsword no problem. I think we can both agree that Zeroth Longsword is stronger than Gray's base punches without magic.
I'm not talking about inside the guild hall though. I understand he was holding back there. What I mean is when Makarov threw Natsu and Jacob out of the guild hall. Natsu could have just defeated Jacob without going FDKM or using a FDK spell. But he didn't. The only logical explanation for this is that Natsu felt it was necessary to use FDKM in order to defeat Jacob. Saying he did this out of anger is not valid because he was angry at Neinhart, yet he still didn't use FDKM.
Again, you fail to realize that had FDKM been nessecary, it would not have taken only one attack to take Jacob out. Sure Natsu could have taken Jacob out in base with more attacks. But why would he? Wouldn't the most logical thing to do be to try and beat Jacob as quickly as possible? Why would Natsu restrict himself to base for no reason?
The wording was bad on my part, I meant Natsu being frustrated more than angry. Knowing Natsu's character, after being held back for so long against an opponent, I think it's another fair explanation as to why Natsu decided to go all out once he got the opportunity.
Well both these examples aren't equivalent to the END flames around Natsu though. These flames were created from the sudden release of magical power that was triggered when Igneel's power or FDKM was activated. But Natsu had already gone END back where Lucy and Dimaria were and he still retained the flames around him a fair bit later when he encountered Gray. I don't see why the flames, after staying with Natsu for that long, would just disappear for no reason. If this was the same thing as when Natsu activated Igneel's power and FDKM then his END flames would have gone out a long time ago.
Not really. I mean if we go by the fact that Neinhart is a support mage which is why he has low durability, I can say that Jacob is an assassin and usually assassins don't excel at defense. It doesn't matter though. This is Enhanced Neinhart we're talking about. That is why I'm even more skeptical of Natsu's power level.
Well I mean, we've already seen firsthand that Jacob does excel in CQC, so his physicality has already proven to be impressive and therefore I think it's reasonable to suggest that his durability would be decent as well. His durability would certainly be higher than Neinhart's, a mage who doesn't even engage in direct combat at all and uses his magic to fight for him.
An increase in MP doesn't nessecarily correlate to an increase in physical stats. I don't know if this is still applicable anymore (I hope it is) but at the very start of the series when Natsu was fighting the two mercenaries in the mansion, they said that many mages spend their efforts improving their magical abilities and as such they neglect their physical strength. I think this is fairly strong evidence that physicality isn't dependent on magical power.
Again, the power gap was caused by the fact that Gray used an entirely different spell as well as the fact that he was able to change the properties of his ice. That is a legitimate feat.
What spell. The punches. O no. Those happened way latter
After juvia death, gray starting smacking invel around. And went out to destroy invel strongest magic, a defensive magic, with his bare hands, in base and no spells.
Compare that with des long sword, which invel blocked causally just like he blocked the hammer
