Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Stopping it (strength wise) might be inconsistent, but she took damage. Idk what else is meant to happen to Erza there in terms of damage. It's not like she's meant to lose her hands or something ridiculous like that - only base Acnologia could achieve that feat.

An attack from August... Idk Erza might be able to tank one. Depends how strong he hits at.

The damage Erza took was minimal. She showed no signs of being in pain. In fact, being tortured by Pre-Timeskip Kyōka arguably left her in an even worse condition. So in terms of damage, it's still inconsistent. As for Erza losing her hands, I don't think that is ridiculous at all. Jacob was burning up by the mere presence of FDKM Natsu. E.N.D who is way stronger should inflict more damage especially since Erza actually made contact with the fire (unlike Jacob). Also, Erza was using no magic meaning her defenses were as low as they could possibly be. Natsu's fire should have obliterated her hand while Gray's ice should have broke it.

 

[Brandish μ]

The damage Erza took was minimal. She showed no signs of being in pain. In fact, being tortured by Pre-Timeskip Kyōka arguably left her in an even worse condition. So in terms of damage, it's still inconsistent. As for Erza losing her hands, I don't think that is ridiculous at all. Jacob was burning up by the mere presence of FDKM Natsu. E.N.D who is way stronger should inflict more damage especially since Erza actually made contact with the fire (unlike Jacob). Also, Erza was using no magic meaning her defenses were as low as they could possibly be. Natsu's fire should have obliterated her hand while Gray's ice should have broke it.

The damage was significant enough to me. I'm not going to worry about pain here, she was already in pain emotionally. Pain can express damage, but if someone doesn't express it, then it doesn't mean there is no pain either. It's just one of those narrative situations where emotions > pain, and this understandable, it can happen IRL.

There isn't any real proof yet that END flames right now exceed FDKM flames either. Could go one way or the other.

I'm not going to hype Natsu or Gray take body parts off Erza with punches. That's a rather extreme claim that would require extreme feats, not just guess work. Acnologia is the only being I believe who could take limbs off Erza with a punch, and he's proven that.

 

[Seven777]

Highly doubt he just stood there and did nothing. A lot of the fight was offscreened, him not doing anything onscreen doesnt mean anything.



Its quite different. They go all out and what happens happens (it just so happens that they rarely end up killing someone, although they sometimes do), in this case we KNOW that Jellal did not want to kill them because he wanted to recruit them.



Ummm no. Even a technique like Altairis is portrayed to be capable of killing Erza and Natsu behind her, and that technique is weaker then Sema AND that was Pre-TS. ToH Erza is more durable then any of the OS (especially someone like Racer, who has pretty jobber durability), Sema would eradicate her. Hell, Jellal would have done some heavy damage to Jura (who is tiers ahead of the OS in durability). If Jellal wanted to, it is beyond reasonable doubt that he could erase their existence, its quite clear he deliberately put less power into it as to NOT kill them.



I have a hard time believing it. As far as AoE goes the roar is even smaller then many of his Pre-Tenrou roars so AoE is definitely not a factor. And this is essentially base Natsu augmented by END (even if slightly), its unreasonable that it would be weaker then a base roar used in just base.



Why am I not surprised that you go straight into downplaying Jellal....



With Takeover she has pretty good durability, without it she most certainly does not. At least not in comparison to most other Spriggan.



lol no. It didn't work because of Neinharts MP, she follows up her abilities not working with just how strong has he gotten. I doubt Brandish knows the exact cap at which her abilities stop working, so she could still be shocked when they don't. This enchantment argument being the basis as to why Brandishs abilities did not work stems from the denial of hax being countered with superior power (shown time and time again, you still deny it lol). It really has no basis, absolutely no reason why a random enchantment that makes someone MP stronger would also have special properties that counters brandishes magic specifically.



He didn't stalemate Torafusa. He lost their exchange.

Really? Cause i'm almost certain standing there and watching was exactly what Midnight did, if he was attacking there would be panels, no reason for Mashima to exclude only Midnight til so late in the battle.
We know that Fairy Tail werent trying to kill in GMG, but Fairy Tail was definitely going all out for most of those fights. Natsu also wanted Jellal to "free" himself, was he holding back in their fight?
Like i said, nothing suggests Jellal was worried about killing them in the first place, if he was actually worried about killing them he wouldnt have used his strongest spell.

Sounds like you are baselessly hyping Jellal to me.
Altaris was a preskip spell, takes ages to charge and we know that it couldnt have killed Erza and Natsu because in the end no one other than Simon got caught in the blast, at most that spell would have killed 1 of the OS, probably not even that considering that any member of the OS>>Simon.
Jellal thinking that it would kill Natsu means nothing, he also thought Grand Chariot would kill him, and that DF Natsu couldnt catch him in Meteor and most importantly that the AoE of Altaris was great enough to take out 2 people, when it could only take out 1, classic villain overestimation.
So... no, Jellal couldnt have killed the OS with Sema, because he didnt, the chapter made it perfectly clear that he gave that battle and that spell everything he had, just look how much he was panting and sweating after he cast that spell compared to when he was casting Grand Chariot, casting Sema undoubtedly took everything he had.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

The damage was significant enough to me. I'm not going to worry about pain here, she was already in pain emotionally. Pain can express damage, but if someone doesn't express it, then it doesn't mean there is no pain either. It's just one of those narrative situations where emotions > pain, and this understandable, it can happen IRL.

There isn't any real proof yet that END flames right now exceed FDKM flames either. Could go one way or the other.

I'm not going to hype Natsu or Gray take body parts off Erza with punches. That's a rather extreme claim that would require extreme feats, not just guess work. Acnologia is the only being I believe who could take limbs off Erza with a punch, and he's proven that.

Okay, well whatever suits you I guess. If Erza happens to be perfectly fine next chapter and can use her hands as if nothing happened, then you'll understand what I'm talking about.

Pain is actually necessary to indicate damage that is dealt. That is why Erza was in no shape to fight for a long time after she encountered Neinhart's Historias. The fact that a character doesn't show pain means they have enough endurance to withstand it. I highly doubt Erza could actually tank DeS Gray's and E.N.D's attacks, especially at the same time.

E.N.D is supposedly stronger than any form Natsu currently has except Dragon Force (which is unknown). I don't really see how anyone could spin this. E.N.D is not only hyped by Mard Geer, Invel, and Zeref but he also has feats to support his hype. If he truly did one-shot Dimaria, then this is just proof that Erza > Dimaria by a lot.

I'm not saying that Gray and Natsu have to destroy Erza's hand in order for me to be satisfied. I'm simply saying I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen (meaning it isn't ridiculous), considering Erza used no magic whatsoever. The combined difference in power is even greater than Natsu and Bluenote.

 

[**Silver**]

LOL both Natsu and Gray has the strongest Plot-armor in universe there is no logical explanation how End/Natsu is enduring grays attacks or how Gray is surviving against End that is fact.....

 

[Boomburst]

Magic power, in theory, should affect a character's durability. That is why someone like Dimaria or Brandish has high durability even though their physical appearance doesn't show it. Similarly, Elfman who is probably one of the more muscular characters of the series is in fact the opposite. One lacks in magic power and the others excel in it. I mean you can call this correlation which doesn't prove anything but I think this is the best example we have right now.

Well I've always considered Elfman to have above average durability for his tier. He was able to beat Bacchus, someone who even Erza wasn't sure she could beat, by relying on tanking hits.

Well, Jacob survived with minimal injuries. Had he survived but was in critical condition, then I would agree.

Well he did have a decent amount of time to rest and heal,

Fair enough. But I still think that there is a clear difference in power even though the motivation is relatively similar.

Yes there is a difference in power, I'm not denying that. Obviously FDKM Demolition Fist is superior to a base punch. I'm just saying that the different emotions Natsu felt against Jacob compared to the ones he felt against Neinhart can explain why Natsu would choose to use more power than might be necessary.

True. He is no pushover. However, his magic power is still inferior to many characters. I fully agree with you on this.

Yea I'm just saying that Makarov's age and physical health have prevented him from being as useful as he could be. His level of power has indeed been surpassed by many characters but he's been essentially reduced to fighting fodder since Tenrou while characters with less MP like Elfman have had more prominent roles in battles (albeit not by much). So I think this is shows pretty clearly that mages of the same MP don't necessarily have to have the same physicals and durability.

 

[The President]

I wouldn't call AoE a non-factor. END's current flames to me are base flames enhanced/mixed with demonic power. If we say END's flames have double the power, then an equivalent roar would only need half the AoE (randomly assigning and assuming here). I doubt the END roar was full powered, I liken the effort similar to the one Invel froze. I'd probably say at best it's equal to the Bluenote one... it wouldn't measure up to the FDK one at all though.

Normally I'd agree, but I think logic edges it out in this case. Its below FDK roar for sure, but I'd peg it above Bluenotes.

Nope there's no downplaying. The feats shown he got thrashed by 4 OS member and two of his best spells. He even needed a week worth of recovery lol.

Sema is one of his best but it wasn't at full power in this case (not that it really matters, since it still gave him the W). GC isn't one of his best. Abyss Break and Altairis are above it. GC is very very casual.

Nah I still put her durability on Jacob's level.

Based on what? Quite frankly her God Soul hasn't even shown durability significantly above his (a tier over at most). Tanking a physical attack from Wendy (even if its DF) is hardly something to be gloating about, and thats in Chronos.

Time and time again? She sensed his MP like everyone else when he was boasting off his new power if her powers were just countered by the level of MP she wouldn't of been surprised otherwise. It was Irene's enchantment that stopped her Mass Manipulation. Also she Mass Manipulated the dude who two shotted him and August's big as heck wound when he was in battle mode so power levels have nothing to do with it. Irene's enchantment was imbued into Neinhart which stopped Brandish from imbue-ing her magic into him.

Rustyroses existence
Mests existence
Age Seal Vs END
Racer Vs Jellal (and Erza)
Mirajane (Sayla) Vs Wahls subordinates
Fairy Law Vs Spriggan
Evergreens Eye Ability Vs Erza
Future Rogues Dragon Taime Vs Acnologia

Man I could go on, seriously. Well she clearly didn't sense enough because literally right after her ability doesn't work she questions just how powerful he had gotten, this is an undeniable fact that literally drops your counter argument into salt. She doesn't question what kind of next level enchantment he has, she questions how powerful he had gotten. The dude who was battle worn and whom she had operated on beforehand? August LET her heal him. If she was able to manipulate August under normal circumstances she would have popped his brain with the order to kill that she got from Mest, instead of resorting to a dagger.

Really? Cause i'm almost certain standing there and watching was exactly what Midnight did, if he was attacking there would be panels, no reason for Mashima to exclude only Midnight til so late in the battle.

He only showed one attack from Angel. He likely wanted to save Midnights feat till later (ie illusions) which was a crucial turning point.

We know that Fairy Tail werent trying to kill in GMG, but Fairy Tail was definitely going all out for most of those fights. Natsu also wanted Jellal to "free" himself, was he holding back in their fight?

Natsu couldn't do shit and he knew it. If they were facing weak opponents then they would have held back, if they were facing characters on the same level it would have been unlikely they would have killed them.

Like i said, nothing suggests Jellal was worried about killing them in the first place, if he was actually worried about killing them he wouldnt have used his strongest spell.

Jellal wanted to recruit them, how can you possibly claim that he wasn't worried about killing them.

Altaris was a preskip spell, takes ages to charge and we know that it couldnt have killed Erza and Natsu because in the end no one other than Simon got caught in the blast, at most that spell would have killed 1 of the OS, probably not even that considering that any member of the OS>>Simon.

Altairis doesn't take that long to charge. Simon acted as a meatshield for Natsu and Erza. Its not an AoE spell, its basically a missile and Simon blocked it with his big body. If he had used Altairis, it would have killed any one of them since none of their durability are that great to begin with (Cobras durability is kinda featless, the other threes durability isn't that great) let alone Erzas level (even if its ToH Erza). And Sema is much stronger then Altairis, yet even it did not kill any of the OS (especially when they were even battle worn). That pretty much confirms that Sema wasn't at full power.

Jellal thinking that it would kill Natsu means nothing, he also thought Grand Chariot would kill him, and that DF Natsu couldnt catch him in Meteor and most importantly that the AoE of Altaris was great enough to take out 2 people, when it could only take out 1, classic villain overestimation.
So... no, Jellal couldnt have killed the OS with Sema, because he didnt, the chapter made it perfectly clear that he gave that battle and that spell everything he had, just look how much he was panting and sweating after he cast that spell compared to when he was casting Grand Chariot, casting Sema undoubtedly took everything he had.

The hell you mean it means nothing, of course it means something. If you don't want to take it from Jellal take it from Erza, who not only implied it would have killed Natsu but implied it would have killed herself. And as if coming from both Jellal and Erza wasn't enough, we have Simon needing to step in to save Erza (I doubt Simon would have sacrificed himself if Erza could have tanked it, mind you Simon thinks extremely highly of Erza). Thats three sources saying it would have taken out even Erza. So yes, he could have killed the OS with Sema, if he wanted to kill them. I mean, if you seriously think that Sema is significantly weaker then Altairis and as strong as OS arc Grays unnamed ice spell then (which one-shotted a full power Racer).......I don't even know what to say to you.

 

[Brandish μ]

Okay, well whatever suits you I guess. If Erza happens to be perfectly fine next chapter and can use her hands as if nothing happened, then you'll understand what I'm talking about.

If she is fine (meaning the injuries were very minor) then it will be odd. But I'm not being that cynical.

Pain is actually necessary to indicate damage that is dealt. That is why Erza was in no shape to fight for a long time after she encountered Neinhart's Historias. The fact that a character doesn't show pain means they have enough endurance to withstand it. I highly doubt Erza could actually tank DeS Gray's and E.N.D's attacks, especially at the same time.

Injuries(physical) are the best indication. You're being way to particular with pain needed to be demonstrated... she's obviously in emotional turmoil. These attacks are punches, with a lot of power... but they're not that powerful.

E.N.D is supposedly stronger than any form Natsu currently has except Dragon Force (which is unknown). I don't really see how anyone could spin this. E.N.D is not only hyped by Mard Geer, Invel, and Zeref but he also has feats to support his hype. If he truly did one-shot Dimaria, then this is just proof that Erza > Dimaria by a lot.

END (currently) is stronger than base Natsu. The other forms have better feats for now. Hype is just that, hype. Not going to hand my hat on them. Invel hyped END, and then said he himself could deal with it...

DiMaria's physicals haven't been outstanding. Erza's hands have taken damage, she's obviously got better endurance.

I'm not saying that Gray and Natsu have to destroy Erza's hand in order for me to be satisfied. I'm simply saying I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen (meaning it isn't ridiculous), considering Erza used no magic whatsoever. The combined difference in power is even greater than Natsu and Bluenote.

You said Erza's hands should have been obliterated and broken... it's ridiculous to me since Natsu/END or Gray have never shown the level of physical power to rip off Erza's hands. The combined difference is great, but she took their punches... not fought them outright.

Normally I'd agree, but I think logic edges it out in this case. Its below FDK roar for sure, but I'd peg it above Bluenotes.

Well I get your point, and I don't disagree with the logic.

 

[Jko]

Normally I'd agree, but I think logic edges it out in this case. Its below FDK roar for sure, but I'd peg it above Bluenotes.



Sema is one of his best but it wasn't at full power in this case (not that it really matters, since it still gave him the W). GC isn't one of his best. Abyss Break and Altairis are above it. GC is very very casual.



Based on what? Quite frankly her God Soul hasn't even shown durability significantly above his (a tier over at most). Tanking a physical attack from Wendy (even if its DF) is hardly something to be gloating about, and thats in Chronos.



Rustyroses existence
Mests existence
Age Seal Vs END
Racer Vs Jellal (and Erza)
Mirajane (Sayla) Vs Wahls subordinates
Fairy Law Vs Spriggan
Evergreens Eye Ability Vs Erza
Future Rogues Dragon Taime Vs Acnologia

Man I could go on, seriously. Well she clearly didn't sense enough because literally right after her ability doesn't work she questions just how powerful he had gotten, this is an undeniable fact that literally drops your counter argument into salt. She doesn't question what kind of next level enchantment he has, she questions how powerful he had gotten. The dude who was battle worn and whom she had operated on beforehand? August LET her heal him. If she was able to manipulate August under normal circumstances she would have popped his brain with the order to kill that she got from Mest, instead of resorting to a dagger.



He only showed one attack from Angel. He wanted to save Midnights feat till later (ie illusions) which was a crucial turning point.



Natsu couldn't do shit and he knew it. If they were facing weak opponents then they would have held back, if they were facing characters on the same level it would have been unlikely they would have killed them.

Like i said, nothing suggests Jellal was worried about killing them in the first place, if he was actually worried about killing them he wouldnt have used his strongest spell.



Altairis doesn't take that long to charge. Simon acted as a meatshield for Natsu and Erza. Its not an AoE spell, its basically a missile and Simon blocked it with his big body. If he had used Altairis, it would have killed any one of them since none of their durability are that great to begin with (Cobras durability is kinda featless, the other threes durability isn't that great) let alone Erzas level (even if its ToH Erza). And Sema is much stronger then Altairis, yet even it did not kill any of the OS (especially when they were even battle worn). That pretty much confirms that Sema wasn't at full power.



The hell you mean it means nothing, of course it means something. If you don't want to take it from Jellal take it from Erza, who not only implied it would have killed Natsu but implied it would have killed herself. And as if coming from both Jellal and Erza wasn't enough, we have Simon needing to step in to save Erza (I doubt Simon would have sacrificed himself if Erza could have tanked it, mind you Simon thinks extremely highly of Erza). Thats three sources saying it would have taken out even Erza. So yes, he could have killed the OS with Sema, if he wanted to kill them. I mean, if you seriously think that Sema is significantly weaker then Altairis and as strong as OS arc Grays unnamed ice spell then (which one-shotted a full power Racer).......I don't even know what to say to you.

GC is definitely above Altarias now. Those were two of his best spells and they were at full power as he was completely tired after using them.

She easily tanked SS at the same time and was toying with them in base. Chronos durability is above every regular S12 thus far. She didn't flinch from a punch from DF Wendy which is quite the feat as even Natsu flinched from less powerful attacks.

• Rustyrose?
• Mest was able to use his hax on an S12
• END didn't have MP so no it doesn't have anything to do with Power. Second pseudo END is having a difficult time with Gray who's MP isn't even S12 so... Yeah power levels has nothing to do with END moving in her Age Seal. Third moving through timestop altogether has nothing to do with Power levels. Fourth Brandish mass manipulated END's power so yeah it definitely has nothing to do with Power levels.
• Racer never said he didn't slow their perception, he actually affected them since he was moving fast and Racer doesn't actually move fast. Erza and Jellal just have better reaction time than his perception magic slows down.
• Makarov wasn't targeting the 12 he was going for the 1 mil berserkers and he only took down 70-80% before dying.
• Wahl countered with weakness which is why only the ones surrounding them were unaffected. Unless you're saying Wahl's subordinates far surpass the combined power of Tartarus Erza and Minerva. That also means Lisanna is far stronger than them too as she was beating them up....
• F.Rogue wasn't even stronger than one dragon let alone 7 and second Acnologia is the antithesis to hax in the verse. On top of that he's only part Dragon.
• It was already stated Evergreen's eye power didn't work because of Erza's false eye weakened it. Her eye powers were going to work on Rustyrose when his glasses got removed and he far surpasses her.

Nope I'm not seeing time and time again. All I'm seeing is people who are shown to counter hax through other means.

When has anyone in this show lowered their MP? Like I thought. If August truly let his PL down he would've gone out of his battle mode. Mest made her stabb him it's not like he was aware of the true extent of her abilities. She could've also made the blade a lot bigger than August body...so it definitely wasn't a rational or strategic attack when she hit him. Still shrunk ENDs powers and could shrink the person who two shotted him. Still not seeing where power levels come in.

 

[Seven777]

Normally I'd agree, but I think logic edges it out in this case. Its below FDK roar for sure, but I'd peg it above Bluenotes.



Sema is one of his best but it wasn't at full power in this case (not that it really matters, since it still gave him the W). GC isn't one of his best. Abyss Break and Altairis are above it. GC is very very casual.



Based on what? Quite frankly her God Soul hasn't even shown durability significantly above his (a tier over at most). Tanking a physical attack from Wendy (even if its DF) is hardly something to be gloating about, and thats in Chronos.



Rustyroses existence
Mests existence
Age Seal Vs END
Racer Vs Jellal (and Erza)
Mirajane (Sayla) Vs Wahls subordinates
Fairy Law Vs Spriggan
Evergreens Eye Ability Vs Erza
Future Rogues Dragon Taime Vs Acnologia

Man I could go on, seriously. Well she clearly didn't sense enough because literally right after her ability doesn't work she questions just how powerful he had gotten, this is an undeniable fact that literally drops your counter argument into salt. She doesn't question what kind of next level enchantment he has, she questions how powerful he had gotten. The dude who was battle worn and whom she had operated on beforehand? August LET her heal him. If she was able to manipulate August under normal circumstances she would have popped his brain with the order to kill that she got from Mest, instead of resorting to a dagger.



He only showed one attack from Angel. He likely wanted to save Midnights feat till later (ie illusions) which was a crucial turning point.



Natsu couldn't do shit and he knew it. If they were facing weak opponents then they would have held back, if they were facing characters on the same level it would have been unlikely they would have killed them.



Jellal wanted to recruit them, how can you possibly claim that he wasn't worried about killing them.



Altairis doesn't take that long to charge. Simon acted as a meatshield for Natsu and Erza. Its not an AoE spell, its basically a missile and Simon blocked it with his big body. If he had used Altairis, it would have killed any one of them since none of their durability are that great to begin with (Cobras durability is kinda featless, the other threes durability isn't that great) let alone Erzas level (even if its ToH Erza). And Sema is much stronger then Altairis, yet even it did not kill any of the OS (especially when they were even battle worn). That pretty much confirms that Sema wasn't at full power.



The hell you mean it means nothing, of course it means something. If you don't want to take it from Jellal take it from Erza, who not only implied it would have killed Natsu but implied it would have killed herself. And as if coming from both Jellal and Erza wasn't enough, we have Simon needing to step in to save Erza (I doubt Simon would have sacrificed himself if Erza could have tanked it, mind you Simon thinks extremely highly of Erza). Thats three sources saying it would have taken out even Erza. So yes, he could have killed the OS with Sema, if he wanted to kill them. I mean, if you seriously think that Sema is significantly weaker then Altairis and as strong as OS arc Grays unnamed ice spell then (which one-shotted a full power Racer).......I don't even know what to say to you.

Normally I'd agree, but I think logic edges it out in this case. Its below FDK roar for sure, but I'd peg it above Bluenotes.



Sema is one of his best but it wasn't at full power in this case (not that it really matters, since it still gave him the W). GC isn't one of his best. Abyss Break and Altairis are above it. GC is very very casual.



Based on what? Quite frankly her God Soul hasn't even shown durability significantly above his (a tier over at most). Tanking a physical attack from Wendy (even if its DF) is hardly something to be gloating about, and thats in Chronos.



Rustyroses existence
Mests existence
Age Seal Vs END
Racer Vs Jellal (and Erza)
Mirajane (Sayla) Vs Wahls subordinates
Fairy Law Vs Spriggan
Evergreens Eye Ability Vs Erza
Future Rogues Dragon Taime Vs Acnologia

Man I could go on, seriously. Well she clearly didn't sense enough because literally right after her ability doesn't work she questions just how powerful he had gotten, this is an undeniable fact that literally drops your counter argument into salt. She doesn't question what kind of next level enchantment he has, she questions how powerful he had gotten. The dude who was battle worn and whom she had operated on beforehand? August LET her heal him. If she was able to manipulate August under normal circumstances she would have popped his brain with the order to kill that she got from Mest, instead of resorting to a dagger.



He only showed one attack from Angel. He likely wanted to save Midnights feat till later (ie illusions) which was a crucial turning point.



Natsu couldn't do shit and he knew it. If they were facing weak opponents then they would have held back, if they were facing characters on the same level it would have been unlikely they would have killed them.



Jellal wanted to recruit them, how can you possibly claim that he wasn't worried about killing them.



Altairis doesn't take that long to charge. Simon acted as a meatshield for Natsu and Erza. Its not an AoE spell, its basically a missile and Simon blocked it with his big body. If he had used Altairis, it would have killed any one of them since none of their durability are that great to begin with (Cobras durability is kinda featless, the other threes durability isn't that great) let alone Erzas level (even if its ToH Erza). And Sema is much stronger then Altairis, yet even it did not kill any of the OS (especially when they were even battle worn). That pretty much confirms that Sema wasn't at full power.



The hell you mean it means nothing, of course it means something. If you don't want to take it from Jellal take it from Erza, who not only implied it would have killed Natsu but implied it would have killed herself. And as if coming from both Jellal and Erza wasn't enough, we have Simon needing to step in to save Erza (I doubt Simon would have sacrificed himself if Erza could have tanked it, mind you Simon thinks extremely highly of Erza). Thats three sources saying it would have taken out even Erza. So yes, he could have killed the OS with Sema, if he wanted to kill them. I mean, if you seriously think that Sema is significantly weaker then Altairis and as strong as OS arc Grays unnamed ice spell then (which one-shotted a full power Racer).......I don't even know what to say to you.

Showed 2 attacks from Angel as well as her in battle stance with feathers everywhere and saying that she had gotten warmed up. Bottom line is that you claiming that Midnight was fighting in the off panel portion of the fight is no different from me claiming that Jellal was using Meteor and other spells off panel too.
I can claim it because nothing at all indicated that he was holding back in that battle, he wasnt worried about killing him because he didnt think his strongest attack would be fatal, and it wasnt.

Altaris took long enough for Erza to jump in front of Natsu, and then for Simon to run in front of Erza, anyone who wasnt critically injured could go and hide behind a small rock to survive, prob takes as long as Sema, and that's pretty long.
What difference does it make if its AoE or not? "The missile" wasnt capable of taking out more than one person.
No, it really doesnt, because Altaris' only feat is killing Simon, and Sema's only feat is not killing the OS, if Jellal was really holding back with Sema he would have just finished the job with that Grand Chariot, but the fact that Jellal actually had to use Grand Chariot combined with Sema, confirms that Jellal was giving it his all and that neither attack was capable of defeating the Orecion Seis individually, let alone killing them.

Uhuh, never mind the fact that Natsu had just taken a severe enough beating from Jellal that he could barely stand, never mind the fact that Jellal himself stated that Erza had already spent all her MP fighting Ikaruga, and despite that got into a grueling fight with Jellal afterwards, then later knocked out by Natsu, and was left to the point where all she could do was watch as Natsu was getting beaten up by Jellal, with so little strength that she couldnt even get up and help him out. Both Erza and Natsu were trashed at that point, killing them as they were is not impressive.

 

[Spirit]

Now that Jko brought it up, Mest did manage to manipulate Brandish didn't he? For a mage of her level, a mage as weak (in comparison) as Mest pulling that off is insane. He also indirectly was the first Fairy Tail mage to harm August

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

If she is fine (meaning the injuries were very minor) then it will be odd. But I'm not being that cynical.

Okay... I don't see why there is a problem with telling something the way it is... But like I said, whatever suits you.

Injuries(physical) are the best indication. You're being way to particular with pain needed to be demonstrated... she's obviously in emotional turmoil. These attacks are punches, with a lot of power... but they're not that powerful.

Physical injuries don't mean much when the character is completely fine. That is literally all there is to it.

If those punches weren't that powerful, then Gray and Natsu are just weak. They can't even injure Erza with their strongest forms while she uses no magic.

END (currently) is stronger than base Natsu. The other forms have better feats for now. Hype is just that, hype. Not going to hand my hat on them. Invel hyped END, and then said he himself could deal with it...

DiMaria's physicals haven't been outstanding. Erza's hands have taken damage, she's obviously got better endurance.

It's not just Invel though. And like I explained, Natsu (E.N.D) has the feats of one-shotting Dimaria while Age Seal is activated. That is way more impressive than one-shotting Jacob.

You said Erza's hands should have been obliterated and broken... it's ridiculous to me since Natsu/END or Gray have never shown the level of physical power to rip off Erza's hands. The combined difference is great, but she took their punches... not fought them outright.

I said it should happen. That doesn't mean it has to happen. And honestly, I won't change my opinion on this. Erza should have been on the verge of death doing what she did. When Gray and Natsu's punches connected with each other in the previous chapters, you could see the amount of power and destruction behind it. There is absolutely no way Erza could have blocked those attacks without any magic.

Also, when did physical power come into this discussion? I was referring to their magic attacks. I never said Gray + Natsu could punch a hole through Erza like Acnologia did to God Serena.

---

You were going on about how because Gray had mp flowing out of him this automatically puts his mp at spriggan level, the panel i used debunks that because Makarov, a wizard who doesnt have spriggan level mp can also make MP flow off his body when he is mad.
I didnt say Makarov's mp was outstanding, just that it is greater than Gray's.

You're still not understanding my point... Makarov doesn't have Spriggan Level MP back in Tenrou Arc because his initial magic power was nowhere near a Spriggan's magic power. Gray, on the other hand, is very close to having Spriggan Level MP. So with a little boost in MP, he is easily Spriggan level.

No, Makarov has less MP than Gray...

Fear in his eyes? Maybe cause a guy that should be dead is walking towards him? As he himself explained with the very same look in his eyes.

Fear and shock are totally different. If Invel was just shocked, he wouldn't have acted the way he did. The look of fear in his eyes happened after he said he was shocked to see Gray alive. So it should be clear that Invel was afraid.

Transformation increase mp strength, doesnt increase the amount they have, think about it, if a powerup increased the amount of mp someone had wouldnt they be able to fight for longer rather than shorter? The way it works is that the wizard's mp strength(attack power) is increased in exchange for expending significantly more of it, this is explained both when Natsu went LFD mode and when Mirajane went Alegria, thats just the way it works in this manga.

What is MP strength?

A power-up can simultaneously increase one's MP and consume it at a faster rate... I don't see what is so hard to understand. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

If you think that is the way it works, explain Dragon Force. I already went over this many times...

Saving the best for last implies that Makarov is the best, cause Juliet and Hyne were gonna take him last.

That doesn't imply anything of that sort... This is pure speculation on your part.

I didnt say that age affects magic power, i said age affects endurance and stamina.

Age Seal most definitely doesn't affect endurance and stamina... Not sure where you are getting this from.

Didnt say Makarov trained. Yes, Makarov sets the bar, the fact that Gray was shocked that Brandish's magic power surpasses Makarovs rather than his own or Natsu's or Erza's implies as much.
Either way Gray cant have spriggan level mp because of his reaction to Brandish, none of them do, you dont have that kind of reaction to an opponent who has equal mp to you. are you seriously trying to say that Gray is so confident in the strength of his mp that he gets a reaction like that just by feeling someone who is equal to him? No, because that would be ridiculous, the only time Gray gets a reaction like that is when he is dealing with opponents with significantly more power than he does, like Jose or Hades, this fact is made even clearer when Gray himself states that he has never felt MP that great before.

The fact that Makarov didn't trains means he has fallen behind. The power inflation from last arc to this arc is insane. People who used to be as strong as Jura are only average now.

Using Gray's reaction toward Brandish is a poor response. I already showed you manga pages of the Spriggan's reactions and Makarov's reaction but you still ignore it because it goes against your argument.

And you do realize you keep referring to when Gray was in his Base Form, right? If he went full-power DeS, he would easily be on par with the Spriggans in MP.

What do you mean stronger hax? The stronger wizard has the stronger hax. Like i said the effort Eileen puts into the enchantment determines whether or not another's magic can alter them.

She spent the same amount of effort enchanting Neinhart and the Alvarez Soldiers...

He is capable of destroying the OS in the sense he is capable of defeating them, yes, doesnt mean that his attacks would kill them outright though.
Holding back your strongest techniques back as a trump card is standard strategy in Fairy Tail, Jellal would be a fool to use Sema from the start.

Jellal clearly wanted to give Oración Seis another chance to live. That much is facts. I don't see how you still can't seem to grasp the logic that Jellal was holding back.

Yeah, Jacob's durability is average among spriggans, i said that from the beginning, even without DF his durability is probably weaker than Natsu's.

Then we agree.

Its never been said that Aquarious>Leo, in fact the opposite is implied since Loke is head of the Zodiacs.

I'm pretty sure it' been stated that Aquarius is the strongest celestial spirit. She costs the most magic power out of all the other spirits. Leo being the head of the Zodiac means nothing here.

Erza stopping their punch doesnt seem inconsistent to me, END and DeS Gray have been hitting each other in the faces for ages now without too much damage received, and yet by stopping one punch from each gave Erza's hands some pretty nasty looking injuries, much worse than what Gray and Natsu appear to have received in their extended battle, so if anything Natsu/Gray's faces>Erza's hands, pretty reasonable

Gray and Natsu haven't received too much damage because...

1. They are stronger than Erza (due to their power-ups),
2. They're using magic unlike Erza.
3. They are taking half the damage since they're hitting each other instead of a 2 vs 1.

Injuries don't mean much when the character is completely fine. I don't even see why this is debatable. It's pretty clear the majority of the fandom is against this logic. Only a select few seem to defend this. I'm not being unreasonable here. I get the feeling people just don't like criticisms which is perfectly fine especially when it is for the development of the storyline.

 

[Kiki]

So... have you guys found out why/how Irene is stronger than DiMaria and Brandish who both are hax users? To @Jko I cant recall where you said it but, (I agreed with you) were you trying to say, that, Irene bestowed Neinhart to the point he is immune to a specific magic, say mass manipulation? It was like anti-mass manipulation enchantment?

I should check the Japanese raws too..

 

[Seven777]

Okay... I don't see why there is a problem with telling something the way it is... But like I said, whatever suits you.



Physical injuries don't mean much when the character is completely fine. That is literally all there is to it.

If those punches weren't that powerful, then Gray and Natsu are just weak. They can't even injure Erza with their strongest forms while she uses no magic.



It's not just Invel though. And like I explained, Natsu (E.N.D) has the feats of one-shotting Dimaria while Age Seal is activated. That is way more impressive than one-shotting Jacob.



I said it should happen. That doesn't mean it has to happen. And honestly, I won't change my opinion on this. Erza should have been on the verge of death doing what she did. When Gray and Natsu's punches connected with each other in the previous chapters, you could see the amount of power and destruction behind it. There is absolutely no way Erza could have blocked those attacks without any magic.

Also, when did physical power come into this discussion? I was referring to their magic attacks. I never said Gray + Natsu could punch a hole through Erza like Acnologia did to God Serena.

---

You're still not understanding my point... Makarov doesn't have Spriggan Level MP back in Tenrou Arc because his initial magic power was nowhere near a Spriggan's magic power. Gray, on the other hand, is very close to having Spriggan Level MP. So with a little boost in MP, he is easily Spriggan level.

No, Makarov has less MP than Gray...



Fear and shock are totally different. If Invel was just shocked, he wouldn't have acted the way he did. The look of fear in his eyes happened after he said he was shocked to see Gray alive. So it should be clear that Invel was afraid.



What is MP strength?

A power-up can simultaneously increase one's MP and consume it at a faster rate... I don't see what is so hard to understand. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

If you think that is the way it works, explain Dragon Force. I already went over this many times...



That doesn't imply anything of that sort... This is pure speculation on your part.



Age Seal most definitely doesn't affect endurance and stamina... Not sure where you are getting this from.



The fact that Makarov didn't trains means he has fallen behind. The power inflation from last arc to this arc is insane. People who used to be as strong as Jura are only average now.

Using Gray's reaction toward Brandish is a poor response. I already showed you manga pages of the Spriggan's reactions and Makarov's reaction but you still ignore it because it goes against your argument.

And you do realize you keep referring to when Gray was in his Base Form, right? If he went full-power DeS, he would easily be on par with the Spriggans in MP.



She spent the same amount of effort enchanting Neinhart and the Alvarez Soldiers...



Jellal clearly wanted to give Oración Seis another chance to live. That much is facts. I don't see how you still can't seem to grasp the logic that Jellal was holding back.



Then we agree.



I'm pretty sure it' been stated that Aquarius is the strongest celestial spirit. She costs the most magic power out of all the other spirits. Leo being the head of the Zodiac means nothing here.



Gray and Natsu haven't received too much damage because...

1. They are stronger than Erza (due to their power-ups),
2. They're using magic unlike Erza.
3. They are taking half the damage since they're hitting each other instead of a 2 vs 1.

Injuries don't mean much when the character is completely fine. I don't even see why this is debatable. It's pretty clear the majority of the fandom is against this logic. Only a select few seem to defend this. I'm not being unreasonable here. I get the feeling people just don't like criticisms which is perfectly fine especially when it is for the development of the storyline.

Gray may not even be close to Makarov's mp, let alone a spriggans, you dont have that kind of reaction to someone only slightly more powerful.

Being scared of a guy that pretty much came back from the dead? Reasonable.

MP strength=Attack power of the spells you use.
What about Dragon Force?

It does imply it, its close to outright stating that Makarov>Mira.

I didnt say Age Seal affect endurance and stamina, i said age, as in how old you are, as in being and old man means you have less stamina.

Fallen behind sure, doesnt mean Makarovs MP isnt still the best, combat ability and mp are two different things.

So what if Gray's in his base form? He knows hsi power, and he was still crapping his pants at the sight of Brandish.

Because there is no logic in Jellal going easy on the OS, used his strongest spell.

She was stated as strongest before she got Loke, after that she refers to both as trump cards.

Erza blocked the attacks, she didnt tank anything, you receive less damage when you block stuff.

 

[Brandish μ]

Physical injuries don't mean much when the character is completely fine. That is literally all there is to it.

If those punches weren't that powerful, then Gray and Natsu are just weak. They can't even injure Erza with their strongest forms while she uses no magic.

Edit

I think we can just agree to disagree. I find it baseless to think Erza's hands would be obliterated. She took damage - we see it on panel. I just don't hype individuals out of my own speculation after the fact.

 

[Hermit]

Jellal was holding back against the Oracion Seis because he was trying to recruit them while they were out to kill him. Major difference here. Off the bat, Cobra used his Poison Dragon Slaying Magic while normally he only uses Sound Magic plus CQC to battle as shown in the fight with Natsu.
Jellal LITERALLY spent half the fight dodging their attacks and blocking them when he could, and the only moment he became serious was after he destroyed Midnight's illusion, plus we've already seen that he can hold back on the potency of his techniques as shown in the Tower of Heaven when he held back on Grand Chariot so as not to destroy the Tower.
So yes, Jellal didn't go all out against the Oracion Seis, if he did, he would have killed them or left them in a worse state than they were at the end of the battle.
Also I'm not exactly sure why the OS are being underplayed here, GMG Cobra was keeping up with the other Dragon Slayers pretty well when they were fighting the Dragons, so it goes without saying that none of the OS were exactly weak or anything in that fight.

 

[Seven777]

Jellal was holding back against the Oracion Seis because he was trying to recruit them while they were out to kill him. Major difference here. Off the bat, Cobra used his Poison Dragon Slaying Magic while normally he only uses Sound Magic plus CQC to battle as shown in the fight with Natsu.
Jellal LITERALLY spent half the fight dodging their attacks and blocking them when he could, and the only moment he became serious was after he destroyed Midnight's illusion, plus we've already seen that he can hold back on the potency of his techniques as shown in the Tower of Heaven when he held back on Grand Chariot so as not to destroy the Tower.
So yes, Jellal didn't go all out against the Oracion Seis, if he did, he would have killed them or left them in a worse state than they were at the end of the battle.
Also I'm not exactly sure why the OS are being underplayed here, GMG Cobra was keeping up with the other Dragon Slayers pretty well when they were fighting the Dragons, so it goes without saying that none of the OS were exactly weak or anything in that fight.

Cobra cant attack with sound magic, against Natsu he just had Kinana do all the work in the beginning, he doesnt have her now so Poison Dragon Slaying magic is all he has to attack with.
He didnt hold back on Grand Chariot in ToH, it was the opposite, he went to far and damaged the tower more than he intended
I dont think anyone was saying the OS were weak.

 

[Hermit]

He didnt hold back on Grand Chariot in ToH, it was the opposite, he went to far and damaged the tower more than he intended

Sorry, my bad, I went and checked and you're right. However, the spell wasn't at full power in the TOH, the only time we've actually seen Grand Chariot at full power was in the fight against Neinhart at the port. He didn't hold back on the technique then. If he did something similar in the Tower of Heaven then the entire R System would have come crashing down.

Cobra cant attack with sound magic, against Natsu he just had Kinana do all the work in the beginning, he doesnt have her now so Poison Dragon Slaying magic is all he has to attack with.

Not really, look at his fight with Erza before hand. He was using CQC, Kinana is just there as an extra supply for poison the moment he taps into his DS Magic.

 

[Seven777]

Sorry, my bad, I went and checked and you're right. However, the spell wasn't at full power in the TOH, the only time we've actually seen Grand Chariot at full power was in the fight against Neinhart at the port. He didn't hold back on the technique then. If he did something similar in the Tower of Heaven then the entire R System would have come crashing down.

Not really, look at his fight with Erza before hand. He was using CQC, Kinana is just there as an extra supply for poison the moment he taps into his DS Magic.

All he does is dodge Erza, every attack he made against her was with Kinana, never his own fists.

What makes you think Grand Chariot wasnt full power?

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

So... have you guys found out why/how Irene is stronger than DiMaria and Brandish who both are hax users? To @Jko I cant recall where you said it but, (I agreed with you) were you trying to say, that, Irene bestowed Neinhart to the point he is immune to a specific magic, say mass manipulation? It was like anti-mass manipulation enchantment?

I should check the Japanese raws too..

I would agree with this logic provided it makes sense in the storyline. But it doesn't. Originally, Eileen gave Neinhart an order which was to find Erza. There is no way she could have predicted that he would encounter Brandish + Team Natsu because his focus was on someone else. Therefore, it is highly improbable for Eileen to single out Brandish and give Neinhart Anti-Mass Manipulation Enchantment, unless she made him immune to all the Spriggans' magic.

Personally, I believe "magic power" is all there is to it.