Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

Which side are you on?

  • Team Spriggan 12

    Votes: 48 51.6%
  • Team Diabolos/Dragon Eaters

    Votes: 45 48.4%

  • Total voters
    93

Hermit

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Or what other explanations could there be for Gray getting handled while demonised (498) to owning in base (500)?
He was half demonized, you can't seriously believe he was going all out against Invel.
The way I see it:
Invel>Base Gray (in magic)
Partially Demonized Gray>=Invel (in magic)
Gray>Invel (in CQC)
Basically, Gray beat Invel in CQC, nothing more nothing less. The only time he even employed magic after Juvia died was when he molded Divine Raiment and used Broken Fist.
To me he was slightly below Erza pre-499,
Why though? This seems more a wild assumption more than anything to me. It held water in Tartaros since Tartaros Erza>Tartaros Gray and Tartaros Natsu, but saying that Gray was below Erza when we hadn't even seen him in a fight and we had seen Erza in two of them and she lost both of them seems a little much of a stretch to me.
 

Brandish μ

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He was half demonized, you can't seriously believe he was going all out against Invel.
The way I see it:
Invel>Base Gray (in magic)
Partially Demonized Gray>=Invel (in magic)
Gray>Invel (in CQC)
Basically, Gray beat Invel in CQC, nothing more nothing less. The only time he even employed magic after Juvia died was when he molded Divine Raiment and used Broken Fist.
Gray was trying, the moment he uses DeS magic he's trying more than just Ice make, and if he demonises he is powering up as much as he can.

Invel was able to handle Gray without going all out. He even stopped Zeroth sword with his hand, and then whipped up a blizzard. And he kept one jand behind his back. There was a pretty clear gap for mine.

After darkness though, Invel had to use the Raiment just to stay in the game. It's pretty obvious here.

Or I could be way wrong, and Gray should just stay in base and use punches... rather than demonise at all.

Why though? This seems more a wild assumption more than anything to me. It held water in Tartaros since Tartaros Erza>Tartaros Gray and Tartaros Natsu, but saying that Gray was below Erza when we hadn't even seen him in a fight and we had seen Erza in two of them and she lost both of them seems a little much of a stretch to me.
It's not a wild assumption. I just view Gray vs Invel differently, as I explained above. I can concede that Gray didn't get to fight Invel fully before the Juvia stuff happened, but then we would have to be assuming on Gray's part just to get him above Erza.
 

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He was half demonized, you can't seriously believe he was going all out against Invel.
Oh of course, who could seriously believe that Gray would go all out against an enemy that just took out all of his friends and is one of the most powerful enemies Fairy Tail has ever faced? -_-

The way I see it:
Invel>Base Gray (in magic)
Partially Demonized Gray>=Invel (in magic)
Gray>Invel (in CQC)
Basically, Gray beat Invel in CQC, nothing more nothing less. The only time he even employed magic after Juvia died was when he molded Divine Raiment and used Broken Fist.
How is Partially Demonized Gray above Invel in magic when you literally just said Gray's CQC was what allowed him to win?
 

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Oh of course, who could seriously believe that Gray would go all out against an enemy that just took out all of his friends and is one of the most powerful enemies Fairy Tail has ever faced? -_-
Uh, because he doesn't need to? Also aren't you forgetting he still has his Trump Card? All facts point to Gray holding back in that fight because he didn't need to go all out against Invel. It's as simple as that.
How is Partially Demonized Gray above Invel in magic when you literally just said Gray's CQC was what allowed him to win?
I mean in a magic battle, I don't mean how much magic each mage individually has, the moment Gray started using his Devil Slaying Magic against Invel, he began overwhelming him, and Invel even felt the need to include Juvia in the battle and he even started trying to woo Gray to join them. The fight was pretty much over then.
Invel was able to handle Gray without going all out. He even stopped Zeroth sword with his hand, and then whipped up a blizzard. And he kept one jand behind his back. There was a pretty clear gap for mine.
Isn't this just Invel's fighting style? He uses one hand to fight, we've never seen him use two even when Gray was beating him down in Chapter 500 so that doesn't exactly show a clear gap in strength.
Gray was trying, the moment he uses DeS magic he's trying more than just Ice make, and if he demonises he is powering up as much as he can.
Yes, I agree on him trying, the notion I don't like is people somehow thinking partial Gray with DeS is him going all out when clearly, that isn't the case. I agree with sentiment though.
It's not a wild assumption. I just view Gray vs Invel differently, as I explained above. I can concede that Gray didn't get to fight Invel fully before the Juvia stuff happened, but then we would have to be assuming on Gray's part just to get him above Erza.
This is true, although you have to admit that Gray was faring far better against Invel than Erza was against Ajeel, even when Erza had the elemental advantage, that's the difference here pretty much.
Or I could be way wrong, and Gray should just stay in base and use punches... rather than demonise at all.
We call it CQC Randy:p It's pretty much like the first half of Laxus vs Wahl, the two were exchanging blows with no one giving the edge. Invel just pretty much sucks at close quarters combat.
 

Boomburst

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Uh, because he doesn't need to? Also aren't you forgetting he still has his Trump Card?
Bro trump cards are never considered in power rankings, that's like saying Gray isn't going all out unless he uses Iced Shell.

All facts point to Gray holding back in that fight because he didn't need to go all out against Invel. It's as simple as that.
Facts like what?

I mean in a magic battle, I don't mean how much magic each mage individually has, the moment Gray started using his Devil Slaying Magic against Invel, he began overwhelming him, and Invel even felt the need to include Juvia in the battle and he even started trying to woo Gray to join them. The fight was pretty much over then.
He tried to get Gray to join them because he wanted Gray to deal with END, not because he was afraid of losing. And no Gray wasn't overwhelming Invel, Invel was as casual as could be when Gray brought out DeS and all it did was "get his attention" (he literally says this).
 

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Bro trump cards are never considered in power rankings, that's like saying Gray isn't going all out unless he uses Iced Shell.
Tell that to the people who think Natsu's DF puts him on Acnologia's level.
Facts like what?
Partial demonization? And not the full blown one? You do realize partial Demonization was Gray's best form in Tartaros after he blocked Memento Mori? Plus Zeroth Long Sword was a move from Tartaros? Gray didn't even use any new techniques in that fight and you want to tell me he was going all out?
He tried to get Gray to join them because he wanted Gray to deal with END, not because he was afraid of losing. And no Gray wasn't overwhelming Invel, Invel was as casual as could be when Gray brought out DeS and all it did was "get his attention" (he literally says this).
Casual? The only moment Invel was casual was at the beginning of the fight. He literally covers the entire place in a blizzard (equivalent of Ajeel's Sand World) and you want to tell me that Invel was 'as casual as could be'?
 

Boomburst

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Tell that to the people who think Natsu's DF puts him on Acnologia's level.
Lmao DF is something that Natsu can enter at will and can use whenever he wants (probably). Completely different from something like Iced Shell or Igneel's power which is only a one-time use, and until we get further information on this I'm assuming Gray's trump card is going to be as well.

Partial demonization? And not the full blown one? You do realize partial Demonization was Gray's best form in Tartaros after he blocked Memento Mori? Plus Zeroth Long Sword was a move from Tartaros? Gray didn't even use any new techniques in that fight and you want to tell me he was going all out?
No no no no no no no. First of all, Gray used Ice Devil's Destruction Fist (something like that), so he DID use a new technique. Secondly, why would you just assume that Gray even developed more new techniques at all? And finally, why would you just assume Gray CAN go full demonization? Your entire argument hinges on baseless assumptions.

Casual? The only moment Invel was casual was at the beginning of the fight. He literally covers the entire place in a blizzard (equivalent of Ajeel's Sand World) and you want to tell me that Invel was 'as casual as could be'?
He also insta-froze Natsu, Lucy, and Juvia so I don't see why creating a blizzard is suddenly so impressive.
 
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Seven777

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Basically, Gray beat Invel in CQC, nothing more nothing less. The only time he even employed magic after Juvia died was when he molded Divine Raiment and used Broken Fist.
The only time Gray actually used CQC was that one punch he landed on Invel that broke his glasses. The real fight came after Invel used Ice Raiment, Invel's trump card equivalent to Sand World or God Soul and Gray only overcame that because of his advantage over other ice wizards.
This is true, although you have to admit that Gray was faring far better against Invel than Erza was against Ajeel, even when Erza had the elemental advantage, that's the difference here pretty much.
No, Erza was fairing much better against Azir than Gray pre 500, and lets not forget the colossal advantage Gray has with his ice immunity.

What Gray did to Invel is pretty much the same as what Gajeel did to Bradman, the only difference is that Gray's waifu got hurt earlier on in the fight, so he got his PoF boost earlier too, letting him deal with Divine Raiment by absorbing the ice pretty much as soon as it came out, as opposed to Gajeel who had to wait for Levy to go down to get his PoF boost and absorb the MBPs to beat Third Seal, doesnt put either character on spriggan level.
 

The President

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Wasnt answering questions when Erza moved in front of Natsu, and Simon moved in front of Erza after Jellal had finished questions, that means two people can move at separate times a fair distance during Altaris' cast time, any decently fast wizard could run up and punch Jellal in the face.
The events go as following:

Jellal gets pissed off, starts Altairis. Brags about it. Erza steps-in, asks question. Jellal takes his sweet time responding, fires it after some more bragging and Simon steps in at that moment.

You mean that very impressive Ice Bow? That although greatly injured Racer didnt actually finish him, let alone kill him, since he was still able to pull out the bombs and run at Lyon? Not quite, but its still a powerful spell, and its a single target piercing type spell, like Erza's swords. Significant damage to a powerful wizard doesnt mean instant death to an average one, like with Gajeel and Levy vs Bradman, Gajeel's durability is among the best, but Levy still survived quite a few attacks that dealt good damage to Gajeel. The difference in power it takes to kill someone compared to just defeating them is significant.
It being very impressive doesn't mean shit when we are comparing it from a Pre-Tenrou Gray to a Post-TS Jellals strongest attack. Are you seriously trying to justify it being even remotely close? If it HAD killed him then that would have meant it was stronger then Sema, hence why I said they were equal (according to you and Jko anyways). Mind you the bow was used on a Racer that was at full health, whereas Sema was used on a Racer that was injured prior, so technically it WAS stronger (again, according to you). We either go with my argument and say that Jellal did the bare minimum to keep them alive and not incinerate them with his full power or we go with yours and say that Pre-Tenrou Grays nameless ice attack is >= Tartarus Jellals strongest attack. I think you could imagine why the latter is kinda ridiculous.

You sound ridiculous. She was toying with the SS the entire time and only got serious when Sherria GS started affecting her.
lol what? She used Age Seal, it didnt work. Wendy and Chelia attacked her, she went Chronos. She did virtually nothing in base.

You're hilarious Wahl only took Laxus punches bcs lightning immunity.
Nope. Wahl is resistant to electric attacks, Laxuses lightning enhanced strength doesn't get de-powered. The fact that he continuously uses it even after Wahl tells him he is immune to lightning is proof of that. Lightning coated punches are no different then when he coats his entire body in lightning to get more speed. Wahl being resistant to lightning doesnt just prevent him from getting faster just like it doesnt prevent him from getting stronger. Plus, even base Laxuses punches are still >>>>>>>> Wendys (in any form).

Jupiter is doing jack squat to DiMaria, and Jacob is getting pushed back by base Mira punches.
Why? Cause Wendys punch did nothing to her LMAO.

Wolfenheim literally has zero feats to say his punches are what you're making it out to be and GS flinched.
Wolfheims punches are above Wendys thats for sure, leagues above hers. DF Wendy barely hurt BASE Ezel with a blitz (ie Ezel wasn't prepared to take the attack). Ezel was a low-tier DG and he was in base at that. Wendys physical strength, even in DF, is still relatively trash. Even Jura would be able to one-shot (two shot at most) someone of base Ezels caliber with his strength and Wolfheim is >>> Jura in physical strength based on the fact that he's factually stronger then Jura by a decent margin and focuses on his physical attributes (whereas Jura also uses magic with his physical stats). GS did not flinch, he was mid-air and Wolfheim got a free-shot in, the attack did literally no damage.

Like I said even Natsu flinched from far weaker attacks than DF Wendy. Also Lucy was tanking Jacob's attacks and he was pissed at them while DiMaria attack would've killed a Max potential God Slayer if not for Wendy's enchantment.
No he hasn't. There aren't many Post-TS attacks that are weaker then a punch from DF Wendy. Not too long ago you even said that Loke was above Wendy lol. Right, I forgot that DiMarias strongest attack got offsetted by an enchantment from base Wendy LMAO. Not only is her durability average spriggan tiered in chronos but her attacks are amongst the weakest of the Spriggan.

He can only power his manifestation to the extent of his MP. Nothing to do with hax that affects others.
He could imagine his opponent vanishing, oh wait he cant? why not? thats right, because he has a bloody limit to his hax.

Barely my ass. You can't barely alter ones memories. Second Mest is fodder tier yet his hax works on an S12.... Doesn't matter if he didn't use it on August he still used it on a S12 lol. You forget August is also the King of Magic, he'd easily sense that Mest was trying to alter his memories and counter.
Umm yes you can, there is something called short term and long term. He inserted a temporary command of killing August. LMAO wtf? Since when did August get the ability to passively read someones mind? Is that how he stops DiMaria from using Age Seal to defeat her first and stops Brandish from popping his brain or heart? :epicfacepalm

END doesn't have magic or he wouldn't have gotten out of the sealing cuffs. No duh she said that, but that had nothing to do with power levels. Brandish shrunk END powers or did you not read that? Gray only won against Invel bcs of ice advantage, PIS, and PoF. It had nothing to do with magical power.
You arent getting it. END has magic, he just also has something called curse. AKA you can stop his magic but he will just use curse, which is literally magic on the opposite end of the spectrum. There is nothing else it could have had to do with. No PIS. POF is a legitimate power in the FT verse and is most certainly power. Gray had an ice advantage, but he was also in base and using his bare fists.

If Racer could constantly slow peoples perception then they wouldn't even be able to perceive Racer. He has a limit to how much he lowers perception NOT who he can affect with it.
The stronger the character, the less it impacts them.

Yeah I'm the joke yet you didn't even read that Makarov's life force was almost diminished and that FL was going to suck the rest out. He didn't even fully take out the 1 mil army so him not taking out the S12 is understandable.
Makarovs life force being diminished is quite literally irrelevant to Fairy Law working on the Spriggans. The Spriggan 12 were there, Ajeel and Jacob would have been even closer to Makarov then the backend and middle of the army and yet they remained unaffected. You can't sugarcoat this my friend, Fairy Law did not work on spriggan because of their power.

Doesn't make a difference just shows ignorance. Rogue is weaker than the Dragons yet his hax works on them. Hello that easily disproves your claim of hax not affecting people who are stronger.
I did also say that different hax works differently and that weaker characters can sometimes affect stronger characters with hax, however not FAR stronger characters. And again, depends on what hax (some hax doesnt even work on characters of their own level, only weaker). The fact that Rogues hax did not work on Acnologia proves that there is a cap to his hax (which you so valiantly try and deny).

Evergreen's eye magic wasn't broken bcs MP it was because of Erza's eye. You are straight going off track in your entire argument about PL stopping hax.
Makarov says that Evergreens hax was cut in half in other words IT HAS A LIMIT. Erza is actually irrelevant here. Fact is that Makarov exposes that Evergreens hax has a limit, which you are contesting.

Just in case you still don't get it I'll even break it down for you (cause im such a nice guy).
You claim that hax has no limits.
No limits = Infinite
Evergreens magic is hax
Evergreens eye magic has no limit
Makarov says that her hax was cut in half
You cannot cut an infinite in half
This means that Evergreens magic is not infinite
This means that Evergreens magic HAS A LIMIT
This means that your argument is blatantly wrong and contradicted by the manga itself

Is this seriously that hard to comprehend? Come on now. There is a reason why mangas like Bleach and Fairy Tail are literally fodder in comparison to a manga like DBZ which is almost entirely devoid of hax.

And FYI. If a hax has a limit, that also means that it can be duped by an existence/character strong enough. So all this stuff goes hand-in-hand.

You don't even know what you're talking about at this point. Seriously you were first saying greater MP overpowers hax but now you're talking about individual limitation of hax that has nothing to do with power levels. Know what the meaning of fallacy is before loosely using it.
I know what a fallacy is, the fact that you question my knowledge of a fallacy implies you think you arent using one which by extension means you have no idea what a fallacy is. You are currently a user of the:

Argument from Ignorance Fallacy
Argument from Silence
Fallacy of Composition
False Attribution
McNamara Fallacy
Continuum Fallacy
No Limits Fallacy (especially this shit, its quite literally your argument)

Please don't get into an argument of fallacies with me. Its a bore and 99% of the time the person doesn't even know what hes talking about.
 
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Seven777

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The events go as following:

Jellal gets pissed off, starts Altairis. Brags about it. Erza steps-in, asks question. Jellal takes his sweet time responding, fires it after some more bragging and Simon steps in at that moment.



It being very impressive doesn't mean shit when we are comparing it from a Pre-Tenrou Gray to a Post-TS Jellals strongest attack. Are you seriously trying to justify it being even remotely close? If it HAD killed him then that would have meant it was stronger then Sema, hence why I said they were equal (according to you and Jko anyways). Mind you the bow was used on a Racer that was at full health, whereas Sema was used on a Racer that was injured prior, so technically it WAS stronger (again, according to you). We either go with my argument and say that Jellal did the bare minimum to keep them alive and not incinerate them with his full power or we go with yours and say that Pre-Tenrou Grays nameless ice attack is >= Tartarus Jellals strongest attack. I think you could imagine why the latter is kinda ridiculous.



lol what? She used Age Seal, it didnt work. Wendy and Chelia attacked her, she went Chronos. She did virtually nothing in base.



Nope. Wahl is resistant to electric attacks, Laxuses lightning enhanced strength doesn't get de-powered. The fact that he continuously uses it even after Wahl tells him he is immune to lightning is proof of that. Lightning coated punches are no different then when he coats his entire body in lightning to get more speed. Wahl being resistant to lightning doesnt just prevent him from getting faster just like it doesnt prevent him from getting stronger. Plus, even base Laxuses punches are still >>>>>>>> Wendys (in any form).



Why? Cause Wendys punch did nothing to her LMAO.



Wolfheims punches are above Wendys thats for sure, leagues above hers. DF Wendy barely hurt BASE Ezel with a blitz (ie Ezel wasn't prepared to take the attack). Ezel was a low-tier DG and he was in base at that. Wendys physical strength, even in DF, is still relatively trash. Even Jura would be able to one-shot (two shot at most) someone of base Ezels caliber with his strength and Wolfheim is >>> Jura in physical strength based on the fact that he's factually stronger then Jura by a decent margin and focuses on his physical attributes (whereas Jura also uses magic with his physical stats). GS did not flinch, he was mid-air and Wolfheim got a free-shot in, the attack did literally no damage.



No he hasn't. There aren't many Post-TS attacks that are weaker then a punch from DF Wendy. Not too long ago you even said that Loke was above Wendy lol. Right, I forgot that DiMarias strongest attack got offsetted by an enchantment from base Wendy LMAO. Not only is her durability average spriggan tiered in chronos but her attacks are amongst the weakest of the Spriggan.



He could imagine his opponent vanishing, oh wait he cant? why not? thats right, because he has a bloody limit to his hax.



Umm yes you can, there is something called short term and long term. He inserted a temporary command of killing August. LMAO wtf? Since when did August get the ability to passively read someones mind? Is that how he stops DiMaria from using Age Seal to defeat her first and stops Brandish from popping his brain or heart? :epicfacepalm



You arent getting it. END has magic, he just also has something called curse. AKA you can stop his magic but he will just use curse, which is literally magic on the opposite end of the spectrum. There is nothing else it could have had to do with. No PIS. POF is a legitimate power in the FT verse and is most certainly power. Gray had an ice advantage, but he was also in base and using his bare fists.



The stronger the character, the less it impacts them.



Makarovs life force being diminished is quite literally irrelevant to Fairy Law working on the Spriggans. The Spriggan 12 were there, Ajeel and Jacob would have been even closer to Makarov then the backend and middle of the army and yet they remained unaffected. You can't sugarcoat this my friend, Fairy Law did not work on spriggan because of their power.



I did also say that different hax works differently and that weaker characters can sometimes affect stronger characters with hax, however not FAR stronger characters. And again, depends on what hax (some hax doesnt even work on characters of their own level, only weaker). The fact that Rogues hax did not work on Acnologia proves that there is a cap to his hax (which you so valiantly try and deny).



Makarov says that Evergreens hax was cut in half in other words IT HAS A LIMIT. Erza is actually irrelevant here. Fact is that Makarov exposes that Evergreens hax has a limit, which you are contesting.

Just in case you still don't get it I'll even break it down for you (cause im such a nice guy).
You claim that hax has no limits.
No limits = Infinite
Evergreens magic is hax
Evergreens eye magic has no limit
Makarov says that her hax was cut in half
You cannot cut an infinite in half
This means that Evergreens magic is not infinite
This means that Evergreens magic HAS A LIMIT
This means that your argument is blatantly wrong and contradicted by the manga itself

Is this seriously that hard to comprehend? Come on now. There is a reason why mangas like Bleach and Fairy Tail are literally fodder in comparison to a manga like DBZ which is almost entirely devoid of hax.

And FYI. If a hax has a limit, that also means that it can be duped by an existence/character strong enough. So all this stuff goes hand-in-hand.



I know what a fallacy is, the fact that you question my knowledge of a fallacy implies you think you arent using one which by extension means you have no idea what a fallacy is. You are currently a user of the:

Argument from Ignorance Fallacy
Argument from Silence
Fallacy of Composition
False Attribution
McNamara Fallacy
Continuum Fallacy
No Limits Fallacy (especially this shit, its quite literally your argument)

Please don't get into an argument of fallacies with me. Its a bore and 99% of the time the person doesn't even know what hes talking about.
So... enough time for 2 people to run a fair distance at separate times.

Remotely close? No, the bow didnt even knock out Racer, while Sema took out the lot of them, though im certain i dont think the difference is a big as you do.
Or alternatively we go for the argument that says Sema>Ice Bow yet was still at full power, since a) Sema knocked Racer out, Ice Bow didnt. b) Sema hit multiple opponents, Ice Bow didnt c) Killing people is harder than knocking them out, and d) even after Racer suicide bombed Lyon he was still alive, so is suicide bombing yourself + getting hit by an Ice Bow equivalent to Sema? Yeah, maybe.

Oh, and on the subject of Laxus' punches vs Wahl, Wahl exlained that his immunity to lightning came from his ability to convert it into his own strength, so while Wahl may have been taking damage from the physical side of Laxus' punches, he was absorbing the lightning side and getting even stronger, it probably evened out in the end depending on whether or not Laxus puts equal physical and magical power into his punches
 

Talenel

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Uh, because he doesn't need to? Also aren't you forgetting he still has his Trump Card? All facts point to Gray holding back in that fight because he didn't need to go all out against Invel. It's as simple as that.

I mean in a magic battle, I don't mean how much magic each mage individually has, the moment Gray started using his Devil Slaying Magic against Invel, he began overwhelming him, and Invel even felt the need to include Juvia in the battle and he even started trying to woo Gray to join them. The fight was pretty much over then.

Isn't this just Invel's fighting style? He uses one hand to fight, we've never seen him use two even when Gray was beating him down in Chapter 500 so that doesn't exactly show a clear gap in strength.

Yes, I agree on him trying, the notion I don't like is people somehow thinking partial Gray with DeS is him going all out when clearly, that isn't the case. I agree with sentiment though.

This is true, although you have to admit that Gray was faring far better against Invel than Erza was against Ajeel, even when Erza had the elemental advantage, that's the difference here pretty much.

We call it CQC Randy:p It's pretty much like the first half of Laxus vs Wahl, the two were exchanging blows with no one giving the edge. Invel just pretty much sucks at close quarters combat.
Great post. Mages rarely actually go all out from the start. Just look at Mira vs Juliet where this tactic is even discussed. If you play your best hand and its countered you have nothing left.

I saw nothing indicating that Gray was weaker than Invel before his powerup or that he was in any way going all out to win before 500. Before his powerup he was still able to block Invels attacks, blitz him with foot speed, and make him vomit blood. Mashima even made it a point that Invel got the upper hand because Brandish showed up and Grays back was turned.
 

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Great post. Mages rarely actually go all out from the start. Just look at Mira vs Juliet where this tactic is even discussed. If you play your best hand and its countered you have nothing left.


I saw nothing indicating that Gray was weaker than Invel before his powerup or that he was in any way going all out to win before 500. Before his powerup he was still able to block Invels attacks, blitz him with foot speed, and make him vomit blood. Mashima even made it a point that Invel got the upper hand because Brandish showed up and Grays back was turned.
This example actually works against you because the only reason why Invel didn't have the upper hand in the first place was because it was going to be a 4 v 1. Lucy's comment that the tables have turned shows pretty well that Gray would have lost had Natsu not broken everyone out of the ice. Besides, Ice Lock was cast almost instantly and I see no reason why Invel couldn't use it even if Gray wasn't distracted.
 

Talenel

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This example actually works against you because the only reason why Invel didn't have the upper hand in the first place was because it was going to be a 4 v 1. Lucy's comment that the tables have turned shows pretty well that Gray would have lost had Natsu not broken everyone out of the ice.
The tables did turn... Invel had no chance of winning against that team. He would have lost miserably.
Besides, Ice Lock was cast almost instantly and I see no reason why Invel couldn't use it even if Gray wasn't distracted.
Because he didn't use it when Gray was actually facing despite its incredible effectiveness?
 

Boomburst

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The tables did turn... Invel had no chance of winning against that team. He would have lost miserably.
Well of course he would have lost to that team but "the tables have turned" implies that BEFORE everyone else broke out of the ice, Invel had the upper hand.

Because he didn't use it when Gray was actually facing despite its incredible effectiveness?
Well it's just like you said isn't it? According to you mages rarely go all out at the beginning of a fight so Invel not using it earlier should make perfect sense.
 
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Talenel

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Well of course he would have lost to that team but "the tables have turned" implies that BEFORE everyone else broke out of he ice, Invel had the upper hand.
It doesn't. Couple of things: such idioms aren't exclusively used in exact situations. Also while we're arguing over the specific meaning of the phrase as it relates to the fight, we forget that this is an english translation from japanese.

Btw how would Lucy know the progress of the battle while frozen? Just curious.
If she was unfrozen the entire time and saw Gray losing, wouldn't she have helped?
Well it's just like you said isn't it? According to you mages rarely go all out at the beginning of a fight so Invel not using it earlier should make perfect sense.
Ice Lock isn't an Indicator of Invel going all out though nor was it a trump card. When Gray was treating him like a ragdoll, Invel resorted to his divine armor even though Ice Lock/Slave was proven to be sufficient to stop Gray.
If we argue that Invel didnt want to play his best hand for fear of being countered, why use the divine armor, the effectivness of which is unknown, when he knows for certain that Gray can't counter Ice Lock?
 

Seven777

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Great post. Mages rarely actually go all out from the start. Just look at Mira vs Juliet where this tactic is even discussed. If you play your best hand and its countered you have nothing left.

I saw nothing indicating that Gray was weaker than Invel before his powerup or that he was in any way going all out to win before 500. Before his powerup he was still able to block Invels attacks, blitz him with foot speed, and make him vomit blood. Mashima even made it a point that Invel got the upper hand because Brandish showed up and Grays back was turned.
Gray didnt go all out at the start, he shot off some Ice Make, but when he realized he couldnt win like that he went all out with DeS magic, which was significantly less effective before the chapter 500 power up.
This argument also applies to Invel too, he was casual the whole fight til PoF came into play
The fact that Gray was still losing despite the enormous advantage of being immune to ice is more than enough indication that Gray was weaker than Invel
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Oh, and wizards can still see an think while frozen
 

Talenel

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Gray didnt go all out at the start, he shot off some Ice Make, but when he realized he couldnt win like that he went all out with DeS magic, which was significantly less effective before the chapter 500 power up.
This argument also applies to Invel too, he was casual the whole fight til PoF came into play
The fact that Gray was still losing despite the enormous advantage of being immune to ice is more than enough indication that Gray was weaker than Invel
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Oh, and wizards can still see an think while frozen
I don't think Gray was going all out when DeS was used. He wasn't nearly as aggressive as he has shown he can be and he used what appears to be his most basic named DeS move.
I don't think Invel was fighting casually-if he was he was foolish since he needlessly took a long sword to the belly and wasted magic creating the blizzard when countering Gray.
Gray's ice immunity didn't come into play until Invel had a way to counter it so it played no part. Gray clearly wasn't immune to Invels ice spells in the first half of their fight.
 

Brandish μ

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Great post. Mages rarely actually go all out from the start. Just look at Mira vs Juliet where this tactic is even discussed. If you play your best hand and its countered you have nothing left.

I saw nothing indicating that Gray was weaker than Invel before his powerup or that he was in any way going all out to win before 500. Before his powerup he was still able to block Invels attacks, blitz him with foot speed, and make him vomit blood. Mashima even made it a point that Invel got the upper hand because Brandish showed up and Grays back was turned.
Except Mira went into her most basic Satan Soul, while Gray demonised. So essentially, it's different.

It depends how you want to look at it. Gray went into a strong form, used a solid offensive attack. Hit Invel once, then was blocked the next time. My overall impression of Invel is that he wasn't really giving Gray his best. He stood there, kept a hand behind his back, and was more interested in Gray's potential to defeat END rather than trying to win. If he thought Gray was on his level, he didn't really express it (like why ponder Juvia vs Gray it should be obvious). After 499 though, and being overpowered, Invel then decided he had to use the raiment - and at that point Invel acknowledged Gray required that amount of power (but still underestimated him).

Brandish showing up was to give Ice Lock a chance (and obviously get rid of Natsu). There's nothing there that suggests Invel needed that to happen to beat Gray - just to use Ice Lock. Unless we're implying that's the only way Invel could win.
 

Talenel

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I wasnt correlating Gray and Miras fights in such a way. We veeerry rarely see mages go all out from the jump.

Invel would only win against Gray with Ice Lock imo.

Its not about what Invel thinks, its just about what I saw from their battle. I don't believe he was stronger than Gray even pre powerup and I've yet to see evidence to persuade me otherwise. Obviously the battle was interrupted though so only Hiro and God know who could have won.

Why did Hiro have Gray facing away from Invel when Invel landed Ice Lock and then have the move not be attempted at any other point despite it being Invels "cheat" magic? I believe its because he cant land it mid battle as he can other moves. Could I be wrong? Of course. I just haven't seen anything to make me think that I am.
 
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