I wasnt correlating Gray and Miras fights in such a way. We veeerry rarely see mages go all out from the jump.
Invel would only win against Gray with Ice Lock imo.
Its not about what Invel thinks, its just about what I saw from their battle. I don't believe he was stronger than Gray even pre powerup and I've yet to see evidence to persuade me otherwise. Obviously the battle was interrupted though so only Hiro and God know who could have won.
Why did Hiro have Gray facing away from Invel when Invel landed Ice Lock and then have the move not be attempted at any other point despite it being Invels "cheat" magic? I believe its because he cant land it mid battle as he can other moves. Could I be wrong? Of course. I just haven't seen anything to make me think that I am.
Yea it's true it's rare, but Gray technically did go into a strong form the moment he probably realised Ice Make wasn't going to cut it. If Natsu went into DF early in a fight, I would consider that going at full power (or very close).
Well if Invel was soloing Gray, he'd use Ice Slave. He would probably use Raiment in combat as his best move, he called it 'that'.
And what we saw I outlined to how I interpreted the battle to be (specifically so I wouldn't be held only to Invel's words - they just add context). It's true only Hiro knows who would win, but we're just guessing here, primarily using the displays and feel of the fight. It seemed pretty obvious to me who was stronger within that exchange. What I can concede is that Gray could have won if the fight went longer, just I'd have Invel at lower odds.
Invel probably can't land Ice Lock mid battle, or Ice Slave (or any of those hax). Those spells to me are plot devices, otherwise Invel could have used them when Gray was beating his face. Ice Lock = Gray gets darkness, Brandish interfering = opportunity for Ice Lock, plus release END power.
I don't think Gray was going all out when DeS was used. He wasn't nearly as aggressive as he has shown he can be and he used what appears to be his most basic named DeS move.
I don't think Invel was fighting casually-if he was he was foolish since he needlessly took a long sword to the belly and wasted magic creating the blizzard when countering Gray.
Gray's ice immunity didn't come into play until Invel had a way to counter it so it played no part. Gray clearly wasn't immune to Invels ice spells in the first half of their fight.
Gray's aggressiveness post 499 comes from rage induced PoF.
He was pretty clearly a lot more casual than Gray was, i doubt the blizzard was to counter Gray, just seemed like he was letting off more power, certainly had no affect on the battle other than making people in the area cold, he got slashed through the gut cause he underestimated the strength of Gray's ice.
Gray's ice immunity came into play the moment the battle started when he was the only one not frozen, taking damage from Invel's ice attacks later just shows the difference in their power, Gray should have had a much easier time with this fight.
Yea it's true it's rare, but Gray technically did go into a strong form the moment he probably realised Ice Make wasn't going to cut it. If Natsu went into DF early in a fight, I would consider that going at full power (or very close).
Well if Invel was soloing Gray, he'd use Ice Slave. He would probably use Raiment in combat as his best move, he called it 'that'.
And what we saw I outlined to how I interpreted the battle to be (specifically so I wouldn't be held only to Invel's words - they just add context). It's true only Hiro knows who would win, but we're just guessing here, primarily using the displays and feel of the fight. It seemed pretty obvious to me who was stronger within that exchange. What I can concede is that Gray could have won if the fight went longer, just I'd have Invel at lower odds.
Invel probably can't land Ice Lock mid battle, or Ice Slave (or any of those hax). Those spells to me are plot devices, otherwise Invel could have used them when Gray was beating his face. Ice Lock = Gray gets darkness, Brandish interfering = opportunity for Ice Lock, plus release END power.
Natsu immediately using Igneels power is one of the few examples.
I should make it clear though that I don't think Gray was at all holding back with the moves he did use. That Ice Hammer was as effective as it could be against Invel as was that long sword. We just know he wasn't being as aggressive as he could be or using moves he has on the back burners.
Gray can react to, endure, and block Invel's ice projectiles, outpace Invel in physicality, and damage Invel without his strongest moves. We know Gray can counter Divine armor even when fighting recklessly and running fist first into it while Ice Lock was never shown to be used in combat. I just don't see any edge that Invel had.
To start off with, MP=/=Strength, it is just one aspect of what makes a character strong, so yes Brandish and Invel gave reactions to Gray and Natsu, however unlike the Gray/Brandish situation, MP was never mentioned, at all, not once, while with Gray it was all he could talk about.
For Brandish, she reacted to Natsu's strength, not to his MP, her judging Natsu by his MP is what led her to underestimating him in the first place.
For Invel, he was reacting to Gray coming back from the dead, he confirmed as much when he spoke, no mention of MP.
For Makarov, he was comparing Gray and Lucy to their Tartaros versions, and was very surprised by how much they improved, as he himself states, its similar to when Makarov was impressed by Natsu and Gajeel's improvement in GMG, just on a greater scale.
I was responding to your statement about Invel sweating because he was scared of Gray coming back to life. What I'm trying to say is that Invel was shocked by Gray's revival, not scared. However, he was scared of Gray's magic power.
Sure, power up increases stats, doesnt give you more magic though, otherwise wizards would be able to fight longer while transformed, instead of shorter.
If Dragon Force is gained through eating Ethernano or someone elses magic, then sure, they get more MP, however if its a situation like what happened with Mard Geer where Natsu transformed through emotion alone, then no, magic power isnt increased as shown when Natsu without getting hit, completely ran out of power from just using 2 basic physical attacks and Phoenix Blade, as opposed to how he fought Zero for ages using many spells and taking many hits.
That doesn't make sense. You're essentially saying that Dragon Force works in two different ways.
By the way, emotions lead to an increase in magic power.
The reason why Natsu lasted a lot shorter in Tartaros was because he used his Dragon Slayer Secret Art from the start which costed him all his MP. As for Tower of Heaven, Natsu was mainly using physical attacks in DF. So his MP didn't decrease that fast. Similarly, against Zero, Natsu didn't use his final attack until the end.
His reaction towards Brandish is more than enough. I didnt say reacting to someones MP makes you inferior to them, i said being scared of someones MP alone means you dont have that much, you dont need more MP to be stronger than them.
Again,you have to take into account that Gray was in Base Form. Had he gone DeS mode, then they'd be around the same level in MP. Besides, being surprised by a person's MP does not mean that they have lower magic power.
You still don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Jellal was holding back with his strongest spell. I'm not saying he was going easy. But he wasn't going all out when he used Sema.
Why doesnt Erza blocking it make sense? Honestly we're lucky Erza's hands even got damaged in the first place, imo even if END hit Erza in the face i doubt it would one shot her, she has always had great durability, good guys always do.
When she uses magic (meaning her armors), then yes, she has immense durability. But when she is using no magic whatsoever and tanks an attack from arguably one of the strongest characters in the series? No.
Base Natsu is equal to Erza (while using magic). FDKM puts him on a whole different level. Add in the fact that E.N.D is stronger, this increases the gap by a lot. Now, factor in Natsu going all out, and this doesn't even seem realistic anymore.
As for the "damage", like I said, we'll wait. If Erza isn't affected by the it at all next chapter, that means she was able to tank it; thus, the inconsistency.
But it goes both ways. Gray and Natsu were surprised by the Spriggans' MP. And they were surprised by Gray and Natsu's MP.
Gray only mentioned it once...
Brandish was talking about his overall power. That includes MP...
Invel sweating means he was scared of Gray's MP.... Not everything needs to be stated for you to figure it out.
Makarov wasn't just comparing their MP their their Tartaros selves. He was genuinely surprised by their magic power alone.
I was responding to your statement about Invel sweating because he was scared of Gray coming back to life. What I'm trying to say is that Invel was shocked by Gray's revival, not scared. However, he was scared of Gray's magic power.
That doesn't make sense. You're essentially saying that Dragon Force works in two different ways.
By the way, emotions lead to an increase in magic power.
The reason why Natsu lasted a lot shorter in Tartaros was because he used his Dragon Slayer Secret Art from the start which costed him all his MP. As for Tower of Heaven, Natsu was mainly using physical attacks in DF. So his MP didn't decrease that fast rate. Similarly, against Zero, Natsu didn't use his final attack until the end.
Not saying Mira isnt stronger than Makarov, just that if we are going by MP alone, Makarov is superior.
Makarov has no MP feats. Fairy Law is the only attack we have to judge him on, but that spell took his life.
Even afterwards, he was still able to survive and last quite some time. He only died by the hands of Zeref.
This absolutely has no basis.
Again,you have to take into account that Gray was in Base Form. Had he gone DeS mode, then they'd be around the same level in MP. Besides, being surprised by a person's MP does not mean that they have lower magic power.
You still don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Jellal was holding back with his strongest spell. I'm not saying he was going easy. But he wasn't going all out when he used Sema.
This is after Lucy received Leo's key.
When she uses magic (meaning her armors), then yes, she has immense durability. But when she is using no magic whatsoever and tanks an attack from arguably one of the strongest characters in the series? No.
Base Natsu is equal to Erza (while using magic). FDKM puts him on a whole different level. Add in the fact that E.N.D is stronger, this increases the gap by a lot. Now, factor in Natsu going all out, and this doesn't even seem realistic anymore.
As for the "damage", like I said, we'll wait. If Erza isn't affected by the it at all next chapter, that means she was able to tank it; thus, the inconsistency.
Overall power yeah, and that does include mp sure, doesnt mean that mp=spriggan mp, its just one aspect of what she was impressed with, Gray on the other hand was terrified by merely feeling her mp, Brandish needed feats of power before Natsu had proven himself strong in her eyes, while Gray needed nothing more but to sense her mp, clear implication that the mp isnt spriggan level.
Sure, we dont need outright statements to explain things, but when that character actually gives and outright statement explaining their shocked/scared state, we dont just change it to suit what we thought happened, Invel's reaction was quite clearly shown to be Gray's apparent returning from the dead, nothing stated or implied that it had anything to do with MP, you pulled that out of thin air, and have no basis for it, while i on the other hand have panels proving why Invel was shocked/scared, nothing more needs to be said.
DIdnt say Dragon Force works in different ways, i said if Natsu gets given magic power he has more of it, if he isnt given magic power, then he doesnt.
Makarov has Gray using him as a comparison to Brandish's magic power, Gray was shocked that there was someone with greater magic than Makarov, which implies his own isn't.
So what if Hades survived? After the heart was destroyed he couldnt use his magic anymore.
Nothing suggests he was holding back Sema, he was panting and sweating in effort afterwards, it quite clearly took everything he had.
Hot Pants Erza was tanking Kyoka's hits easily, her defense is still good without her armor.
We dont know END is stronger than FDK, sure doesnt seem like it based on his pathetic roar.
I honestly dont see what the big deal is, Dimaria isnt dead and she took a hit to the body/face, Erza blocked an attack with her hand and got some serious burns, it isnt unreasonable, in fact even blocking it with no damage at all wouldnt be that strange considering Gray's lack of burns.
Fact is good guys have good endurance, Erza's being among the best, increased power level doesnt affect endurance much, cause a good guys will power will just let them keep on fighting.
i doubt the blizzard was to counter Gray, just seemed like he was letting off more power, certainly had no affect on the battle other than making people in the area cold,
Letting off more power for no reason at all? I doubt it. It seemed to be to be a direct result of the MP released when he caught Gray's DeS magic and dispelled it and made more by Invel warping the battlefield to his suiting.
he got slashed through the gut cause he underestimated the strength of Gray's ice.
He got slashed because he was too slow to defend against Gray's charge.
Gray's ice immunity came into play the moment the battle started when he was the only one not frozen, taking damage from Invel's ice attacks later just shows the difference in their power, Gray should have had a much easier time with this fight.
That was Gray's natural resistance to the cold that saved his ass. Immunity means that you are immune which Gray clearly wasn't. Silver and Wahl are immune and take no damage from Ice and Lightning respectively, unlike our boy Gray.
Not exactly, Ice Lock and Ice Slave are techniques that need time to set up as shown when Invel was only able to use it on Mavis because Zeref was talking to her and she had her back turned to Invel.
Invel uses Raiment, Gray just molds it the same way he did in his fight against Doriate in Sun Village.
There really is no feasible way Invel can beat Gray in a one on one honestly.
I'm talking about the instances in which he mentioned her MP. When Brandish appeared in the middle of his fight with Invel. He didn't say anything about it. Even when Natsu was with Brandish at the guild. He wasn't scared of her MP. It should be obvious that the panel of Gray and Natsu being surprised by Brandish's MP was only for hype. Nothing here proves that they have less MP than her.
Overall power yeah, and that does include mp sure, doesnt mean that mp=spriggan mp, its just one aspect of what she was impressed with, Gray on the other hand was terrified by merely feeling her mp, Brandish needed feats of power before Natsu had proven himself strong in her eyes, while Gray needed nothing more but to sense her mp, clear implication that the mp isnt spriggan level.
Because Brandish never saw Gray when he used DeS... The only time they saw each other again was when Gray was just about to fight Invel. And he wasn't even going full power. Meanwhile, Natsu went FDKM in the presence of Brandish. So your point is invalid.
Sure, we dont need outright statements to explain things, but when that character actually gives and outright statement explaining their shocked/scared state, we dont just change it to suit what we thought happened, Invel's reaction was quite clearly shown to be Gray's apparent returning from the dead, nothing stated or implied that it had anything to do with MP, you pulled that out of thin air, and have no basis for it, while i on the other hand have panels proving why Invel was shocked/scared, nothing more needs to be said.
No. We saw close-up shot of Invel's face after he mentions Gray coming back from the dead. That is an indicator that he wasn't just surprised by the fact that Gray was alive, but also by his power. Hiro Mashima emphasizes this with Gray becoming increasingly stronger.
DIdnt say Dragon Force works in different ways, i said if Natsu gets given magic power he has more of it, if he isnt given magic power, then he doesnt.
Then why did you say Natsu eating the Ethernano gave more MP but in Tartaros, his MP stayed the same? It's clear that he had an increase in MP in both fights.
Makarov has Gray using him as a comparison to Brandish's magic power, Gray was shocked that there was someone with greater magic than Makarov, which implies his own isn't.
First of all, Gray was in Base Form. Secondly, just because Gray made a comparison between Makarov and a Spriggan, that doesn't mean he is inferior to them. That is like saying Makarov is inferior to Jura and Gildarts because be made a comparison between them.
Hot Pants Erza was tanking Kyoka's hits easily, her defense is still good without her armor.
We dont know END is stronger than FDK, sure doesnt seem like it based on his pathetic roar.
I honestly dont see what the big deal is, Dimaria isnt dead and she took a hit to the body/face, Erza blocked an attack with her hand and got some serious burns, it isnt unreasonable, in fact even blocking it with no damage at all wouldnt be that strange considering Gray's lack of burns.
Fact is good guys have good endurance, Erza's being among the best, increased power level doesnt affect endurance much, cause a good guys will power will just let them keep on fighting.
That still doesn't change the fact that Erza didn't get any boost in defense. As for Kyōka, she was critically injured by the end of the fight. Had there been no Power of Friendship, she could have lost.
E.N.D should stronger than FDKM Natsu based on what was shown. How was the roar pathetic? It looked pretty powerful to me. Size doesn't mean anything. Attack potency is what matters.
Dimaria was scared of Natsu... That tells you something about his power. Besides, even if she wasn't killed, she was critically injured.
The "serious burns" didn't affect her. Again, she tanked it. Just wait until next chapter to see that she is completely fine.
Sure, Erza has some good endurance. But not enough to tank two powerful attacks from two of the strongest characters in the series.
Not exactly, Ice Lock and Ice Slave are techniques that need time to set up as shown when Invel was only able to use it on Mavis because Zeref was talking to her and she had her back turned to Invel.
Invel uses Raiment, Gray just molds it the same way he did in his fight against Doriate in Sun Village.
There really is no feasible way Invel can beat Gray in a one on one honestly.
Nah I was stating that if Invel used a hax on Gray alone, it would probably be Ice Slave, since Ice Lock was used on 2 people (it's basically the Ice slave for 2). I've never stated that Ice Lock/Slave is an in-battle spell, it could be, but Invel never showed he could so it.
I can agree that Gray could remold Raiment and use it to beat Invel. But it would be credited to slayer advantage, rather than Gray>=Invel. Essentially, without the power-up or an advantage, Gray isn't on Invel's level - from what we were shown in 498 (effort between the 2 was obvious).
It doesn't. Couple of things: such idioms aren't exclusively used in exact situations. Also while we're arguing over the specific meaning of the phrase as it relates to the fight, we forget that this is an english translation from japanese.
Btw how would Lucy know the progress of the battle while frozen? Just curious.
If she was unfrozen the entire time and saw Gray losing, wouldn't she have helped?
Ice Lock isn't an Indicator of Invel going all out though nor was it a trump card. When Gray was treating him like a ragdoll, Invel resorted to his divine armor even though Ice Lock/Slave was proven to be sufficient to stop Gray.
I'm pretty sure Ice Lock only works if there is someone else to bind him to. And even if that isn't true, the fact that Invel deemed it necessary to use his Divine Rampent instead of using Ice Lock/Slave should be pretty clear evidence that Gray had a power up of some sort. You said it yourself, why didn't Invel use something that was already proven to work? Because Gray got a powerup that could possibly allow him to break through Ice Slave/Lock.
If we argue that Invel didnt want to play his best hand for fear of being countered, why use the divine armor, the effectivness of which is unknown, when he knows for certain that Gray can't counter Ice Lock?
But that's not what I'm arguing, that's what YOU'RE arguing. YOU made the claim that mages will often hold back their best hand for fear of it being countered, so you kinda just neutered your own argument here.
I'm talking about the instances in which he mentioned her MP. When Brandish appeared in the middle of his fight with Invel. He didn't say anything about it. Even when Natsu was with Brandish at the guild. He wasn't scared of her MP. It should be obvious that the panel of Gray and Natsu being surprised by Brandish's MP was only for hype. Nothing here proves that they have less MP than her.
Because Brandish never saw Gray when he used DeS... The only time they saw each other again was when Gray was just about to fight Invel. And he wasn't even going full power. Meanwhile, Natsu went FDKM in the presence of Brandish. So your point is invalid.
No. We saw close-up shot of Invel's face after he mentions Gray coming back from the dead. That is an indicator that he wasn't just surprised by the fact that Gray was alive, but also by his power. Hiro Mashima emphasizes this with Gray becoming increasingly stronger.
Then why did you say Natsu eating the Ethernano gave more MP but in Tartaros, his MP stayed the same? It's clear that he had an increase in MP in both fights.
First of all, Gray was in Base Form. Secondly, just because Gray made a comparison between Makarov and a Spriggan, that doesn't mean he is inferior to them. That is like saying Makarov is inferior to Jura and Gildarts because be made a comparison between them.
He survived against a combination of attacks from Team Natsu (who were empowered by the Tenrou Tree). That is some feat.
He took a lot of damage by the end of the fight so of course he would be sweating and breathing heavily from the pain.
That still doesn't change the fact that Erza didn't get any boost in defense. As for Kyōka, she was critically injured by the end of the fight. Had there been no Power of Friendship, she could have lost.
E.N.D should stronger than FDKM Natsu based on what was shown. How was the roar pathetic? It looked pretty powerful to me. Size doesn't mean anything. Attack potency is what matters.
Dimaria was scared of Natsu... That tells you something about his power. Besides, even if she wasn't killed, she was critically injured.
The "serious burns" didn't affect her. Again, she tanked it. Just wait until next chapter to see that she is completely fine.
Sure, Erza has some good endurance. But not enough to tank two powerful attacks from two of the strongest characters in the series.
They already had plenty of experience with spriggans at that point, the awe factor wore off.
Yes, Brandish was for hype, and that was because Mashima wanted us to understand how far above regular mages spriggans are, in other words it is proof that Gray and Natsu have less mp. The fact that Mavis referred to the GoI as Ishgar's strongest force proves that none of them had that level of MP.
Brandish saw Gray in DeS when she kidnapped Natsu, wasnt even worth looking at.
Sure, she saw Makarov throw Natsu through a big hole in the wall, but i doubt she got a good look at what actually happened after that with her being on the ground and all, from her point of view it probably looked more like Natsu+Lucy(who undid Transport, Jacobs best move)+Happy(stopped transport from being cast)+Makarov(a guy even Zeref respects) vs Jacob, a bit different from Natsu just going ahead and oneshotting Neinhart on his own.
Yes, a close up of Invel's face, while he went on about how Gray couldnt possibly be alive, dont think anything more needs to be said.
Because Natsu gained mp from eating the Ethernano, in Tartaros he didnt eat anything.
Gray being in base makes absolutely no difference, you are acting like Gray doesnt know how powerful his own DeS magic is.
Makarov judged Jura by the strength of his attack on the MPF, implying both that he wouldnt be able to compete with that score and that even Gildarts would have trouble matching it, Gray judged Brandish by her presence alone, implying that his own couldnt match it.
Dying isnt as easy as it looks in this series, old man Makarov probably wouldnt die from that combination attack either.
Wasnt sweating and breathing heavily when he cast Grand Chariot, the sweat and heavy breathing came after Sema.
Doesnt need a boost in defense, her defense is already probably at least as high as Dimaria's whos body did not burn away after getting hit by END, no reason Erza's hands would be burnt any worse than Dimaria's body.
Erza's PoF strength when she blocked ENDs attack is at least as high as it was with Kyoka, Makarov just died.
FDK roar left a colossal scorched crater, its potency and AoE were on a totally different level. END looks maybe mildly stronger than base Natsu, he's an intense fighter, but his destructive might isnt anywhere near FDK level based on what we've seen.
Sure, she was scared of Natsu, cause he's a crazy demon that scorched half her body and could walk through her time.
Blocking isnt the same as tanking, when you block something you are meant to take less damage, though Erza could probably tank an attack too.
More than enough endurance to block two intense, but mediocre attacks from an incomplete demon and a relatively powerful mage.
It came from rage/will as it always does. PoF has nothing to do with. His pace isn't dependent on his fighting power.
Definitely.
Letting off more power for no reason at all? I doubt it. It seemed to be to be a direct result of the MP released when he caught Gray's DeS magic and dispelled it and made more by Invel warping the battlefield to his suiting.
He got slashed because he was too slow to defend against Gray's charge.
That was Gray's natural resistance to the cold that saved his ass. Immunity means that you are immune which Gray clearly wasn't. Silver and Wahl are immune and take no damage from Ice and Lightning respectively, unlike our boy Gray.
Sure, rage/will, and the amount he had of that exponentially increased post 499.
So you are saying he actually managed to dispell Zeroth Long Sword and thats what the blizzard did? I suppose thats possible.
Wasnt too slow for the follow up charge once he knew DeS magic was coming in to play, though i'll admit his CQC is pretty shit.
Natural resistance, immunity, whatever you want to call it, the point is Gray had a colossal advantage over Invel from the get go, Invel even comments on Gray's immunity to ice when he uses Ice Raiment, he says even with his body's immunity to ice, Gray would still be frozen, which quite clearly implies that the reason he used Ice Raiment was because he knew his other ice attacks wouldnt be enough to overcome Gray's ice immunity.
1. August
2. Laracade
3. Irene
4,5, and 6 Slightly Equals. Invel, Dimaria, Brandish
7. God Serena
8. Bradman
9. Wahl
10. Ajeel
11. Jacob
12. Nienhart
Btw when I did this list I based it off of what happened. Not what could've happened.
August is the General
Laracade is the Acnologia trump card.
Irene is just a Boss plus she has a lot of feats that I'm not gonna state.
Invel's so cold he made Gray freeze
Dimaria is a God
Brandish ( My Bae btw) shrunk an island to a slither of land, gave Lucy a hard time, shrunk and enlarged natsu's tumor, stabbed and healed August, and it was stated that she could've killed both Lucy and Natsu at any given moment
God Serena Deystroyed the Gods of Ishgar, got rekt by Acno, and got rekt again by Gildarts.
Bradman got his ass kicked by Gajeel and barley Levy
Wahl was shocked to death by red lightening
Ajeel got his ass kicked by Ezra and Bisca and almost died from Laxus's lightening tit
Jacob got his ass kicked by Natsu and Lucy. Then got his ass kicked by the power of cleavage
Nienhart did absolutely nothing to earn the title Spirrgan but get his ass kicked this whole time
They already had plenty of experience with spriggans at that point, the awe factor wore off.
Yes, Brandish was for hype, and that was because Mashima wanted us to understand how far above regular mages spriggans are, in other words it is proof that Gray and Natsu have less mp. The fact that Mavis referred to the GoI as Ishgar's strongest force proves that none of them had that level of MP.
If the "awe" factor wore off, that means they were never scared of the Spriggans' magic power. Only surprised.
I don't see how you can come up with such a conclusion based on the Gods of Ishgar being Ishgar's strongest force, but I guess you have your own way of thinking...
Brandish saw Gray in DeS when she kidnapped Natsu, wasnt even worth looking at.
Sure, she saw Makarov throw Natsu through a big hole in the wall, but i doubt she got a good look at what actually happened after that with her being on the ground and all, from her point of view it probably looked more like Natsu+Lucy(who undid Transport, Jacobs best move)+Happy(stopped transport from being cast)+Makarov(a guy even Zeref respects) vs Jacob, a bit different from Natsu just going ahead and oneshotting Neinhart on his own.
Dragon Force works only one way. So if one situation leads to an increase in MP, so does the other. Like I said, the only reason why ToH DF Natsu lasted longer than Tartaros DF Natsu was because the former only used physical attacks whereas the latter used his strongest attack for the start.
Gray being in base makes absolutely no difference, you are acting like Gray doesnt know how powerful his own DeS magic is.
Makarov judged Jura by the strength of his attack on the MPF, implying both that he wouldnt be able to compete with that score and that even Gildarts would have trouble matching it, Gray judged Brandish by her presence alone, implying that his own couldnt match it.
Of course he knows his own power. I'm just saying that the Spriggans would react the same way if he went full power. It's entirely possible for two people to be surprised by each other's MP.
Actually, Gray could judge Brandish by her presence alone because of the magic power that she was giving off. Makarov couldn't exactly sense Jura until he went full power on the MPF.
Doesnt need a boost in defense, her defense is already probably at least as high as Dimaria's whos body did not burn away after getting hit by END, no reason Erza's hands would be burnt any worse than Dimaria's body.
Erza's PoF strength when she blocked ENDs attack is at least as high as it was with Kyoka, Makarov just died.
FDK roar left a colossal scorched crater, its potency and AoE were on a totally different level. END looks maybe mildly stronger than base Natsu, he's an intense fighter, but his destructive might isnt anywhere near FDK level based on what we've seen.
Sure, she was scared of Natsu, cause he's a crazy demon that scorched half her body and could walk through her time.
Blocking isnt the same as tanking, when you block something you are meant to take less damage, though Erza could probably tank an attack too.
More than enough endurance to block two intense, but mediocre attacks from an incomplete demon and a relatively powerful mage.
Considering how Erza could barely beat a Spriggan on Ajeel's level, I don't see her defense being that great. Besides, Dimaria cannot move her body at all while Erza seems to be completely fine.
Also, Natsu never transformed or said he was going all out until he fought Gray. So his attack against Gray was arguably stronger than his attack against Dimaria.
I don't see your point about Erza's PoF. Yes, Erza used PoF both times. But they were two, totally different feats.
Again, destructive capacity isn't really a big factor in terms of power. Like AoE, they are mainly used for fighting more than one opponent. Attack potency is the key to a character's attack power. And from what we've seen against Dimaria, Gray, and Erza, E.N.D destroys FDKM Natsu.
1. August
2. Laracade
3. Irene
4,5, and 6 Slightly Equals. Invel, Dimaria, Brandish
7. God Serena
8. Bradman
9. Wahl
10. Ajeel
11. Jacob
12. Nienhart
Btw when I did this list I based it off of what happened. Not what could've happened.
August is the General
Laracade is the Acnologia trump card.
Irene is just a Boss plus she has a lot of feats that I'm not gonna state.
Invel's so cold he made Gray freeze
Dimaria is a God
Brandish ( My Bae btw) shrunk an island to a slither of land, gave Lucy a hard time, shrunk and enlarged natsu's tumor, stabbed and healed August, and it was stated that she could've killed both Lucy and Natsu at any given moment
God Serena Deystroyed the Gods of Ishgar, got rekt by Acno, and got rekt again by Gildarts.
Bradman got his ass kicked by Gajeel and barley Levy
Wahl was shocked to death by red lightening
Ajeel got his ass kicked by Ezra and Bisca and almost died from Laxus's lightening tit
Jacob got his ass kicked by Natsu and Lucy. Then got his ass kicked by the power of cleavage
Nienhart did absolutely nothing to earn the title Spirrgan but get his ass kicked this whole time
Nienheart summoned Historias that gave Erza, Gray, Lyon, Wendy, Laxus, Juvia and Meredy a hard time. Yes Erza was able to disspell his Historia but she also fainted afterwards. He was basically giving the whole south a hard battle and basically he took on the entire south.
Jacob took out 115 guild members with a clap of his hands and with them Brandish/Marin. He proceeded to destroy Mavis and kick Natsu/Lucy around in H2H combat for a while.
Ajeel easily locked a shot from Jupiter with 1 hand. Covered all of Magnolia in sand and proceeded to destroy Erza. He was also holding his own against Team Natsu. He wasn't even effected by Gray's DeS magic and easily broke free from it. Too a direct punch from Natsu no problem.
Whal was able to give Gray, Juvia, elfman, Rijinshuu, Mirajane a good battle with with his weakness bots. He was able to take out the Rijinshuu and easily disspell Freed's barrier. He was also knocking Laxus around. Not to mention he had a cannon that traveled over 50 miles to destroy the FT guild.
No way in the world should people like Invel/Bradman/Serena be ranked above them.
Serena took out the GOI but they are nowhere near the FT mages level currently. He attacked team Natsu and even as a historia failed to do any damage to them with a combination of 3 attacks.
Invel froze Team Natsu but they all broke out. His chains while impressive were overpowered by Juvia's and Gray's will. He wanted them to fight and kill each other but they said no a "Killed" themselves. Then he proceeded to get destroyed by DeS Gray. Even before the chains DeS gray wounded him with an attack.
Bradman took out lackys of Sabortooth. gave Gajeel a decent battle. The only problem with him is that all his curses were countered by Levy and that his anti magical particles did nothing to Levy.
So with that being said without a doubt those 3 spriggan are the weakest.
Nienheart summoned Historias that gave Erza, Gray, Lyon, Wendy, Laxus, Juvia and Meredy a hard time. Yes Erza was able to disspell his Historia but she also fainted afterwards. He was basically giving the whole south a hard battle and basically he took on the entire south.
Jacob took out 115 guild members with a clap of his hands and with them Brandish/Marin. He proceeded to destroy Mavis and kick Natsu/Lucy around in H2H combat for a while.
Ajeel easily locked a shot from Jupiter with 1 hand. Covered all of Magnolia in sand and proceeded to destroy Erza. He was also holding his own against Team Natsu. He wasn't even effected by Gray's DeS magic and easily broke free from it. Too a direct punch from Natsu no problem.
Whal was able to give Gray, Juvia, elfman, Rijinshuu, Mirajane a good battle with with his weakness bots. He was able to take out the Rijinshuu and easily disspell Freed's barrier. He was also knocking Laxus around. Not to mention he had a cannon that traveled over 50 miles to destroy the FT guild.
No way in the world should people like Invel/Bradman/Serena be ranked above them.
Serena took out the GOI but they are nowhere near the FT mages level currently. He attacked team Natsu and even as a historia failed to do any damage to them with a combination of 3 attacks.
Invel froze Team Natsu but they all broke out. His chains while impressive were overpowered by Juvia's and Gray's will. He wanted them to fight and kill each other but they said no a "Killed" themselves. Then he proceeded to get destroyed by DeS Gray. Even before the chains DeS gray wounded him with an attack.
Bradman took out lackys of Sabortooth. gave Gajeel a decent battle. The only problem with him is that all his curses were countered by Levy and that his anti magical particles did nothing to Levy.
So with that being said without a doubt those 3 spriggan are the weakest.
You had to give me a history lesson lol The ranking list that I made was how I felt about the whole situation. How I ranked them is exactly how I see it. I feel as if August Irene Larcade Brandish Dimaria and Invel are the best IMO. Yes all the things you stated I knew about every other spirrgan but I feel like the six I stated above were hyped more and are overall better mages. Now everything that you told me is still not going to change my opinion nor did I say that you had to state that in order for me to think that ( for future reference ) and it was nice to here your thoughts about the situation but I think I'm gonna stick to my list. Have a nice Sunday though.
If the "awe" factor wore off, that means they were never scared of the Spriggans' magic power. Only surprised.
I don't see how you can come up with such a conclusion based on the Gods of Ishgar being Ishgar's strongest force, but I guess you have your own way of thinking...
You're right. Sorry, my mistake. I concede here.
He only mentioned Gray being alive the first time. The second time, it was clear he was scared. Not shocked.
Dragon Force works only one way. So if one situation leads to an increase in MP, so does the other. Like I said, the only reason why ToH DF Natsu lasted longer than Tartaros DF Natsu was because the former only used physical attacks whereas the latter used his strongest attack for the start.
Actually, Gray could judge Brandish by her presence alone because of the magic power that she was giving off. Makarov couldn't exactly sense Jura until he went full power on the MPF.
That's because Makarov has superior stats compared to an average mage back them.
Yeah, the end is when all the damage and fatigue started to kick in...
Considering how Erza could barely beat a Spriggan on Ajeel's level, I don't see her defense being that great. Besides, Dimaria cannot move her body at all while Erza seems to be completely fine.
Also, Natsu never transformed or said he was going all out until he fought Gray. So his attack against Gray was arguably stronger than his attack against Dimaria.
I don't see your point about Erza's PoF. Yes, Erza used PoF both times. But they were two, totally different feats.
Again, destructive capacity isn't really a big factor in terms of power. Like AoE, they are mainly used for fighting more than one opponent. Attack potency is the key to a character's attack power. And from what we've seen against Dimaria, Gray, and Erza, E.N.D destroys FDKM Natsu.
Alright, i think in the end we just see things in different ways, this argument isnt even about Neinhart anymore(though its arguably more relevant to the thread) so i think it might be time to just agree to disagree on the whole Good Guys mp vs Spriggan mp.
All i'll say is that imo the hype at the start of the arc of how the spriggans are far beyond the good guys was wrong(cause they're pathetic), but not in the sense that their magic power wasnt far above the good guys as implied, but because the good guys can always overcome the odds no matter what.
On the Dragon Force topic you seem to have misunderstood me, i never said Dragon Force increases mp, imo it doesnt, it simply increases stats (strength, speed etc), what increased the mp in ToH was eating etherion, not Dragon Force.
She could barely beat Azir true, but her defense was still shown to be good in that fight, she spent a long while in Azir's sand whirlwind when Marin was restricting her power, being below spriggan tier(assuming she is) doesnt mean your defense is also below spriggan tier, good guys are generally more resilient than bad guys.
Dimaria was beaten down by END, Erza simply blocked an attack, it is only natural Dimaria is in worse shape.
He never said he was holding back against Dimaria, and considering that from his point of view Dimaria had killed Lucy, he would have been far angrier and more ferocious when battling Dimaria than when he was fighting Gray, a guy who he really just wants out of his way so he can get Zeref.
My point about Erza's PoF is that you said the main reason Erza could tank Kyoka's attacks while in red hotpants mode instead of armor was cause of PoF boost, so i said that the PoF boost she had gotten from Makarov dying would be at least as strong letting her red hot pants once again have comparable defense to any armor she has.
END hasnt shown anything particularly potent, sure he gave Dimaria a good thrashing off panel, but so did base Natsu with Neinhart and FDK Natsu with Jacob, it isnt anything amazing, and the fact that it was off panel reduces the feat even more, for all we know it could have taken a dozen blows to put down Dimaria, all we have to work with is AoE, and while not always a clear indication of power, FDK smashes END in this regard, also from what we've seen even END's flame aura is considerable less potent than FDK Natsu's
My opinion on END's power level pretty much hinges on whether or not Natsu was in END mode when he faced Dimaria, and also whether or not END's curse power interferes with Natsu's dragon slaying magic.
If tapping into END's power was something that only happened once he saw Lucy, then I'm not really sure how to power rank END mode.The chronology of events is somewhat confusing, but I'm still willing to accept that Natsu went in-and-out of END form. If not, I'd have to judge END solely by his feats against Gray, and he's not done anything out of the ordinary there. I actually find his FDK attacks to be more impressive.
This brings up the subject of whether or not END's curse power interferes with Natsu's ability to cast dragon slaying magic. If it doesn't, then it's basically just a direct power-up. If it does, then it would actually be a handicap in the long-run.
Not really. She was the first one to land a shot on Jellal and her Angels did as much damage as Cobra's dragon slaying magic. There's nothing showing Cobra and Midnight are in an entire other league especially when Racer was keeping the same pace as Cobra in the entire fight with Jellal. The power difference in OS is miniscule.
