No, the volume dictates that they are the same in function and explains how both it and Wall’s attacks are the same. That doesn’t mean that Natsu can dodge all of them or Magic soldiers don’t have light speed attacks or higher. But that is besides the point, the fact remains is that Dragon flight speed is nothing really special since we have lightning dodging/reacting speeds. And we can use science calcs to measure attacks, that is how scaling powers works. Laxus scales as he managed to tank Country level attacks with relative easy. It is flight speed, verse reaction/dodging speeds, not the same
No, the volume dictates that they are the same in function and explains how both it and Wall’s attacks are the same. That doesn’t mean that Natsu can dodge all of them or Magic soldiers don’t have light speed attacks or higher. But that is besides the point, the fact remains is that Dragon flight speed is nothing really special since we have lightning dodging/reacting speeds. And we can use science calcs to measure attacks, that is how scaling powers works. Laxus scales as he managed to tank Country level attacks with relative easy. It is flight speed, verse reaction/dodging speeds, not the same
Calcs are honestly meaningless. This is a series where magic exists, and Mashima has never been the gold standard for science. This isn't science fiction. Natsu has dodged lasers, which should technically make him above lightspeed, but he's not even faster than Jellal. Jellal himself isn't fast enough that he can't be tagged by Jura, who has like zero speed magic. The Parent Dragons was able to disable face by flying across the continent, a feat that no human could have done in Tartarus. Natsu could dodge lightning in the Harvest Festival arc. You think pre-timeskip Natsu could have just shut down face by running around Ishgar and punching them apart? Come on now...Natsu wouldn't have made it out of Magnolia before face wiped out all of his power. Think about how quickly face wiped out all the magic power from the wizards. The dragons are not immune to its drain, and yet they still managed to pull of the feat of taking them out.
Wall says "magic confinement fusion phase-boundary kill system: online". As far as I'm concerned, that's the name of whatever machinery that works his magic. Just because it shares similar name with a system of nuclear fusion doesn't actually mean he has nuclear fusion as his power. Even if I give you that Wall has nuclear fusion, that still doesn't make Wall country level. Zeref has infinite power. Think about all the energy that exists in our observable universe. Every galaxy, star, planet. All of that mass and all of that energy is finite. Fairy Heart is an infinite source of power. Zeref has more magic power than we have atoms and energy in our universe. His actual attacks weren't even above building level. What actually matters in power-scaling is feats, and a certain degree of acknowledgement to a character's in-story portrayal (hype if you will). You can call Wall country level all you want, but the truth is Wall was defeated by Laxus who himself is not anywhere near country level.
Yet despite there being magic, there is science involved in them regardless. On numerous occasions, science does matter because magic is just a form of science used for tricks. Regardless of whether the author of a story is best at science or not it still applies regardless. That would make him lightspeed reaction time. That is because the dragons can fly and they are around massively hypersonic, which the characters can react to already with Laxus’ lightning feats. Natsu can react to him since ToH, Jura can react to Jellal. And match his attacks speed. You need to learn the difference between movement/combat/reaction/flight speed speed, because the characters vary in multiple areas, and Dragons do not need magic to fly. No, in the volume magical confinement Fusion is explicitly described the same as magnetic confinement fusion, both being the same with just the difference is using magnetic fields and magic, but operate as the same process none the less. No, Zeref is scales to whatever he is scaled to in any form of comparison to any power in the ft verse, that is how we know how strong he is. You don’t have to have attacks the size of stars or galaxies to scale to that level, the the calculation and scaling of the feats. Example, Trunks casually stops Stronger than 100% final form Frieza. Who in his half power state can tank planet level attacks. And who Trunks strongest attack against the androids could only blow off a mountain. See the pattern here? Laxus is still country-large country in that moment because of being able to tank his attacks and has spells that can halt his attacks. His attacks were all real, he just gets random heart attacks.
Yet despite there being magic, there is science involved in them regardless. On numerous occasions, science does matter because magic is just a form of science used for tricks. Regardless of whether the author of a story is best at science or not it still applies regardless. That would make him lightspeed reaction time. That is because the dragons can fly and they are around massively hypersonic, which the characters can react to already with Laxus’ lightning feats. Natsu can react to him since ToH, Jura can react to Jellal. And match his attacks speed. You need to learn the difference between movement/combat/reaction/flight speed speed, because the characters vary in multiple areas, and Dragons do not need magic to fly. No, in the volume magical confinement Fusion is explicitly described the same as magnetic confinement fusion, both being the same with just the difference is using magnetic fields and magic, but operate as the same process none the less. No, Zeref is scales to whatever he is scaled to in any form of comparison to any power in the ft verse, that is how we know how strong he is. You don’t have to have attacks the size of stars or galaxies to scale to that level, the the calculation and scaling of the feats. Example, Trunks casually stops Stronger than 100% final form Frieza. Who in his half power state can tank planet level attacks. And who Trunks strongest attack against the androids could only blow off a mountain. See the pattern here? Laxus is still country-large country in that moment because of being able to tank his attacks and has spells that can halt his attacks
Your argument for Wall being on country level was that the name of the machinery that operates his magic shares a similar name to the real life machines that operate nuclear fusion (which don't really work btw). I point out that even if Wall has nuclear fusion, that doesn't mean he is country level. Zeref has more power than we have in our entire observable universe with Fairy Heart, but his attacks clearly aren't universal in scale. You say that Zeref doesn't need to have a galaxy-scale attack to be considered universal. So given that Natsu overpowered Fairy Heart and defeated Zeref, Natsu's should be considered universal. So long as you accept Natsu is universal, I will grant you Wall being country level. Otherwise, I will have to insist we stick to feats. In which case, Wall lost to Laxus who is mountain level by feats.
Natsu being faster than light is a consequence of him dodging Sting's lasers, which is light. I'll hold you to this as long as we're dead set on using science.
No, it is the facts that the volume stated that they are based on scientific process. It does because of the radiation energy calculation that defined the amount of energy used in his attacks. No that is not how it works, Zeref only scales to what he is scalable by information out there, it is true he is able to produce infinite energy he has a finite magic container that would replenish instantly, but that does not make him universal level.
No, it is the facts that the volume stated that they are based on scientific process. It does because of the radiation energy calculation that defined the amount of energy used in his attacks. No that is not how it works, Zeref only scales to what he is scalable by information out there, it is true he is able to produce infinite energy he has a finite magic container that would replenish instantly, but that does not make him universal level.
Natsu would have had to burn out the entirety of Fairy Heart. If Zeref could replenish his power instantly, then he would have been able to reverse time as soon as Natsu defeated him. He would have refilled his power with FH, and then proceeded to reverse time. The only way Natsu could have beaten Zeref was if he burned out Fairy Heart so that Zeref couldn't do this.
Zeref and Natsu are every bit universal as Wall is country level.
No, his flames would not have worked as long as time belonged to Zeref, so he had to heat his flames to a temperature were space time is so distorted to the point he can effect Zeref. Well if you consider Acnologia universal for eating an entire dimension of magic, but I would not use that comparison
No, his flames would not have worked as long as time belonged to Zeref, so he had to heat his flames to a temperature were space time is so distorted to the point he can effect Zeref. Well if you consider Acnologia universal for eating an entire dimension of magic, but I would not use that comparison
Zeref controlling time has nothing to do with whether Natsu's flames work or not. Natsu was able to destroy Zeref's body with Dragon Force. The problem was Zeref reversed time and undid all the damage. In order to beat Zeref, Natsu had to burn away Zeref's ability to use time magic. That meant burning away Fairy Heart's power. Which he did with savage flames.
Acnologia is more universal than Wall is country. For the record, I don't actually consider Natsu, Zeref, or Acnologia as truly universal. Just as I don't consider Wall as being country level. August with his Ars Magia spell, which is a suicide attack, is country level. I very much doubt Wall can rival that with a regular attack.
Destroying his body does not matter, it is a matter of getting past his temporal defenses which would make any effort meaningless, his flames had to be hot enough to effect spacetime. Because if it was a matter of fh, it would have been over after the first attack since fh was within Zeref.
August would be small continent scaling from Irene’s spell universe one, disregard my Acno feat mentioned. Wall is country-large country level by calculation
Destroying his body does not matter, it is a matter of getting past his temporal defenses which would make any effort meaningless, his flames had to be hot enough to effect spacetime. Because if it was a matter of fh, it would have been over after the first attack since fh was within Zeref.
August would be small continent scaling from Irene’s spell universe one, disregard my Acno feat mentioned. Wall is country-large country level by calculation
Natsu had zero problem whatsoever making flames and damaging Zeref's body. The problem was Zeref was able to undo the damage by reversing time. Fairy Heart obviously wasn't destroyed when Zeref's body was scattered, because he still had Fairy Heart afterwards. He had Fairy Heart's power when he was still dust in the air. Natsu had to burn the magic of Fairy Heart to beat Zeref.
Universe One only affected Fiore, which is a country within Ishgar. Ars magia was said to be capable of destroying a country. August is country level with a suicide attack. Irene is country level with prep-time. Wall is neither.
That does not mean he could not just reverse time later on, the problem is that his attacks would not matter if his flames were not hot enough. But he did though as he burned Zeref away the first time, he could not get past his defenses. And Fiore was the size of the United States continent, Irene can multi task, August is already small continent already by Irene, Wall is country-large country
That does not mean he could not just reverse time later on, the problem is that his attacks would not matter if his flames were not hot enough. But he did though as he burned Zeref away the first time, he could not get past his defenses. And Fiore was the size of the United States continent, Irene can multi task, August is already small continent already by Irene, Wall is country-large country
Again, Natsu had no problem actually hurting Zeref. He managed to vaporize Zeref's body with dragon force. If Zeref didn't have Fairy Heart, that attack would have defeated Zeref. It may not have killed Zeref, but it would have incapacitate him for a long time until he regenerates. The argument here is whether or not Natsu overpowered Fairy Heart's infinite power, which he absolutely had to have done in order to actually beat Zeref. If Zeref had any of Fairy Heart's power left, he would have been able to rewind time and undo all the damage Natsu did to him. It wouldn't have mattered how much damage Natsu did to Zeref. So long as Fairy Heart's power was in play, Zeref could just rewind time and undo everything.
Ishgar is bigger than Fiore regardless, so that just means the parent dragons destroying face is even more impressive. Fiore is not even the largest country in Ishgar. Ishgar is modeled off of Europe, and Fiore is like Italy in comparison
You are not getting it, if burning away FH was the means to beat him, he would have done it on the first attack, no attack would work unless he can bypass his time defenses. Overcoming Time is not a matter of strength, it is hax, he had to have the means of bypassing it like his Kugelblitz temperature. Without it, none of Natsu’s attacks will ever work even though he tried to aim for his magic “again”. Too bad that Fiore is the size of the US based on the distance between Hargeon and Magnolia being 370 km, which is the bases for measuring the rest of the country. That does not make Dragons Multi Continent in DC, that would mean they can cover the area within that time
You are not getting it, if burning away FH was the means to beat him, he would have done it on the first attack, no attack would work unless he can bypass his time defenses. Overcoming Time is not a matter of strength, it is hax, he had to have the means of bypassing it like his Kugelblitz temperature. Without it, none of Natsu’s attacks will ever work even though he tried to aim for his magic “again”. Too bad that Fiore is the size of the US based on the distance between Hargeon and Magnolia being 370 km, which is the bases for measuring the rest of the country. That does not make Dragons Multi Continent in DC, that would mean they can cover the area within that time
Burning away Fairy Heart is what prevents Zeref from rewinding time and undoing all the damage. The very fact that Natsu burned away Zeref's time magic with his first attack is exactly what prevents Zeref from just undoing all the damage Natsu dealt with his second attack. If Natsu didn't burn away all of Fairy Heart's power, then Zeref would just rewind time after Natsu beats him up. Natsu can spend a lifetime beating Zeref to a pulp, and Zeref would still win by outlasting him. In order to actually beat Zeref, he had to stop Zeref from using Fairy Heart to reverse time. That means burning out FH. Zeref's time magic isn't a shield that prevents Natsu from hurting him. Natsu was bruising Zeref with regular punches, even before the final exchanges.
At the end of the day, however you scale Fiore to Magnolia, the face feat is still wholly superior to anything Wall has ever done. More than enough to oneshot Wall several times over.
He cannot burn away a magic that cannot be effected without form while his flames are not hot enough to effect them. That is why he has to heat it to the point where space and time is distorted. He did burn away all of FH the first time since the blast encompasses his whole body. No, it is not, those faces are not even the size of a mountain which a dragon can destroy, that is the only feat the parent dragons can scale to while Wall is stronger than that
Actually, I doubt that the "leader" of the 5 Dragon Gods is Ankhseram. In my opinion, Ankhseram was always a God that just overlooked Earthland and punished those who broke the laws that he had already set.
But more importantly, it wouldn't make sense that Ankhseram would be one of the 5 Dragon Gods according to how Elefseria described them. 400 years ago, Zeref was cursed by Ankhseram after experimenting with the R-system and Eclipse Gate at the Mildian Magic Academy. That means Ankhseram must've been watching and actually cared enough to place the Curse of Contradictions on Zeref.
On the other hand, Elefseria said that the 5 Dragon Gods mostly kept to themselves, unless something "massive" occurs. If we assume that Zeref's projects met the criteria of "being massive enough" (since Ankhseram interfered when Zeref was creating a time portal 400 years ago), then in theory, the 5 Dragon Gods should have showed up during the Alvarez Arc when Zeref was about to reverse time.
Besides, I don't picture Ankhseram being comparable to 4 other dragons, let alone only roaming within Giltena's borders. He seems like an actual God that takes on a non-physical form, similar to how the Japanese would view a Shinigami.
He cannot burn away a magic that cannot be effected without form while his flames are not hot enough to effect them. That is why he has to heat it to the point where space and time is distorted. He did burn away all of FH the first time since the blast encompasses his whole body. No, it is not, those faces are not even the size of a mountain which a dragon can destroy, that is the only feat the parent dragons can scale to while Wall is stronger than that
I agree that time magic cannot be burned unless the flames are hot enough. Power of feelings gives Natsu more power, and the more power he has the hotter his flames become. In this case, it made Natsu's flames so powerful that it could burn time. But what does this have anything to do with our original debate? Remember that my original argument was that just because Wall has nuclear fusion, that doesn't mean he is country level. If that was the case, then Zeref should be universal for having literally more power than the observable universe. And Natsu should be above that for defeating Zeref. By the way, if Natsu's flames are hot enough to burn time, then he is definitely universal by real life science standards. The only way to reach temperatures strong enough to disturb time is with planck temperatures, and planck temperature has only ever been achieved once in history. That was with the big bang. Obviously Natsu's attacks are nowhere near universal. What does that make Acnologia, who is stronger than Natsu? Multiversal?
Zeref's time magic is not a shield that protects him. Natsu was able to damage Zeref's body with dragon force, without the need to burn time. He was able to bruise Zeref with regular punches to the face right before they went for the final exchange. Zeref's time magic allowed him to rewind time and undo all the damage Natsu dealt to him. In order to beat Zeref, Natsu had to stop Zeref from reversing time. In order to stop Zeref from reversing time, Natsu needed to burn away Fairy Heart's power so that Zeref couldn't use it. Also, destroying Zeref's body does not destroy Fairy Heart. We know this because Zeref was still able to use Fairy Heart's power even when his body was destroyed.
Those faces had enough magic power to affect the continent of Ishgar (or massive supercontinent, if you want to say Fiore alone rivals the USA in size). The dragons had enough magic power to destroy those faces. If you want to say Laxus is large country for defeating Wall, who you also hype to large country. Then you must hype the parent dragons to continental for overpowering something that is continental. Things are so much easier when we stick to feats. Wall showed city block level attacks, and was defeated by Laxus who showed mountain level attacks.
Actually, I doubt that the "leader" of the 5 Dragon Gods is Ankhseram. In my opinion, Ankhseram was always a God that just overlooked Earthland and punished those who broke the laws that he had already set.
But more importantly, it wouldn't make sense that Ankhseram would be one of the 5 Dragon Gods according to how Elefseria described them. 400 years ago, Zeref was cursed by Ankhseram after experimenting with the R-system and Eclipse Gate at the Mildian Magic Academy. That means Ankhseram must've been watching and actually cared enough to place the Curse of Contradictions on Zeref.
On the other hand, Elefseria said that the 5 Dragon Gods mostly kept to themselves, unless something "massive" occurs. If we assume that Zeref's projects met the criteria of "being massive enough" (since Ankhseram interfered when Zeref was creating a time portal 400 years ago), then in theory, the 5 Dragon Gods should have showed up during the Alvarez Arc when Zeref was about to reverse time.
Besides, I don't picture Ankhseram being comparable to 4 other dragons, let alone only roaming within Giltena's borders. He seems like an actual God that takes on a non-physical form, similar to how the Japanese would view a Shinigami.
I don't see it as being that complicated. I think for the most part the 5 dragon gods just basically did whatever they want for entertainment, so long as it didn't outright blow up the world by going to war with each other. If Ankhseram turns out to be a dragon god, there could be many reasons he cursed Zeref. He could have been punishing Zeref was messing with the flow of life. Or just because he wanted some personal amusement. Or anything in between. Don't think there's a hard and fast rule when it comes to this. We also know that some of them, like Mercfovia, wasn't exactly completely hidden. He's ruling a city right now, and he was the one that killed some of Elefseria's family and friends 100 years ago.
That is what I have been saying, the hotter his flames became the more he could distort spacetime. The reason for the country level fusion is by the calculation that can determine the energy of radiation from his attacks that uses the nuclear fusion process. And the calculation gives the energy that makes it Country-Large Country level. Having the ability to produce infinite energy does not make one universal level, just the power to make their magic reserves never run dry. So he scales to whatever that power is scalable to in the FT verse. In this case it is more NLF for him being universal level, but that does not take away what he did which would allow him the win, that is why he would only scale to where ever Zeref scales to. Not a literal shield but a line of defense that makes Natsu’s attacks unable to effect him, regardless, Zeref’s body is not the issue, it is his inability to get passed the time magic, until Natsu used Savage flames. Absorption does not equate to DC, otherwise Dragon Knight would be Planet Level from it’s ability to absorb the magic of the entire planet of Edolas. Flying into them does not really mean that they used magic for all of them. Feats are one thing, but calculating them is another which is what makes them all the more special and important.
