Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[WoWfan]

Your are ignoring the answer, He has not shown his full power yet. And at that time he was still changing into a demon. So this he is not at full power. Larcade was a clone of Natsu as a demon but was only second to him. Even so that does not mean he has the special ability to kill Zeref like Natsu has. That does not mean his curse power cannot give him the greatest power of all from hatred and all sorts of negative emotions. Natsu was just not at that point yet because he was still changing like Naruto in his first Kyubi chakra

 

[Axiomus]

Your are ignoring the answer, He has not shown his full power yet. And at that time he was still changing into a demon. So this he is not at full power. Larcade was a clone of Natsu as a demon but was only second to him. Even so that does not mean he has the special ability to kill Zeref like Natsu has. That does not mean his curse power cannot give him the greatest power of all from hatred and all sorts of negative emotions. Natsu was just not at that point yet because he was still changing like Naruto in his first Kyubi chakra

It's a non-answer. I asked you when has END ever shown his full power, and you're telling me that he's never shown it. The only and strongest version of END's power we have ever seen was when he fought Gray. After that fight, the END tumor started fusing with the dragon seed and started to kill Natsu. I say again the only version of END that can beat Zeref is imaginary.

The fact that Zeref can oneshot Larcade proves his attacks to be stronger than END's attacks. In a fight, Zeref's attacks would just overpower END's attacks. This would be true even if Zeref doesn't have immortality.

Yes. Yes, it does. It's exactly what it means. Natsu just said his greatest power comes from the feelings he has for the guild. END's power dissipates the moment Natsu starts thinking about the feelings he had for the guild. Natsu specifically criticized himself for raging out at Gray. The emotions that were fueling Natsu during his time as END were the exact opposite of the emotions he needed to beat Zeref.

 

[WoWfan]

It is an answer, you are just not accepting it when it is logical and factually correct. That was only his current form as he has yet to turn fully demon. It only fused from his indecisive mind whether to be a demon or dragon. And again, the version we saw was not his full version. That statement is filled with contradictions right there as Larcade is not even on END’s level since he was just an attempt is all to be Natsu nor did he have END’s abilities, plus Larcade is heavily damaged, and Zeref stated that only END out of all the demons can kill him. And the greatest power for curses are hatred and negative emotions, which is what he has going for him as END, You are thinking just magic as a power source which is different from Curses. The emotion needed to “Kill” Zeref is Love, and that requires another immortal like him, not the same love that Natsu talks about

 

[Axiomus]

It is an answer, you are just not accepting it when it is logical and factually correct. That was only his current form as he has yet to turn fully demon. It only fused from his indecisive mind whether to be a demon or dragon. And again, the version we saw was not his full version. That statement is filled with contradictions right there as Larcade is not even on END’s level since he was just an attempt is all to be Natsu nor did he have END’s abilities, plus Larcade is heavily damaged, and Zeref stated that only END out of all the demons can kill him. And the greatest power for curses are hatred and negative emotions, which is what he has going for him as END, You are thinking just magic as a power source which is different from Curses. The emotion needed to “Kill” Zeref is Love, not the same love that Natsu talks about

So when I ask you when has END ever shown his full power, your answer is that he has never shown it? Then I am 100% in saying that the only version of END that can beat Zeref is an imaginary one. It doesn't exist outside of fanfiction scenarios.

The dragon and demon seeds weren't fusing because Natsu was indecisive about whether he wanted to be a demon or a dragon. The seeds were growing because Natsu had doubts about his humanity. No specific reason was ever given on why they were fusing, but this is not really all that important. Natsu was never going to choose being a demon anyways.

Spoiler: Seeds were growing because Natsu doubted his humanity

There is no contradiction. Larcade is stronger than most the Spriggans. Zeref can kill Larcade in two shots. END cannot kill Dimaria, Erza, or Gray. Whether or not END is stronger than Larcade is irrelevant. Even if END can beat Larcade, there's no reason to believe that he could blow a hole in Larcades chest when he couldn't do it to Dimaria. Gray was heavily damaged as well (more damaged than Larcade tbh), and Natsu still couldn't kill him. Zeref could slay Larcade even with devil slaying magic. Zeref's attacks are better than END's attacks.

First of all, Love > Hate. This was proven when Natsu beat Zeref, because Zeref was using all his hatred, darkness, and cruse to power his final attack. Keep in mind Zeref's negative emotions are way worse than Natsu's. Zeref has 400 years worth of pain and suffering. If Natsu tried to beat Zeref at his own game, he would have been outclassed. Who cares if the greatest power for curses is hatred? All that means is the strongest powers for curses is weaker than that magic, because the strongest power is love. Natsu's greatest power is the power of feelings he has for his guild, not his curse powers as END.

 

[WoWfan]

And I am 100% percent in saying that is not even his final form as he is still transforming, there is proof of that as stated. Same thing, he still doubted himself in his humanity. That does not change anything, yet he did become or becoming a demon. And that is your contradiction in saying that Larcade is stronger than END when Zeref’s own words prove you wrong, END can just Dimaria is that strong to survive. Again, Gray has Devil Slayer magic and power of darkness which disperses curses. END uses savage flames and his own power and both beats and kills Zeref, yet love cannot kill Zeref without Mavis, only she could kill him (Besides END), that is the hole point, beating him is not the topic here, just killing Zeref.

 

[Axiomus]

And I am 100% percent in saying that is not even his final form as he is still transforming, there is proof of that as stated. Same thing, he still doubted himself in his humanity. That does not change anything, yet he did become or becoming a demon. And that is your contradiction in saying that Larcade is stronger than END when Zeref’s own words prove you wrong, END can just Dimaria is that strong to survive. Again, Gray has Devil Slayer magic and power of darkness which disperses curses. END uses savage flames and his own power and both beats and kills Zeref, yet love cannot kill Zeref without Mavis, only she could kill him (Besides END), that is the hole point, beating him is not the topic here, just killing Zeref.

END's "final form" would be a corpse after his seeds fuses and kills him. His strongest form was when he fought Gray.

I never said Larcade is stronger than END. You made that up. I said Larcade is stronger than Dimaria, and Zeref can kill Larcade in one hit. END cannot kill Dimaria in one hit, and therefore END's attacks are weaker than Zeref's. Gray having devil slaying magic is no excuse for END's unimpressive attack power. Erza stopped both Gray and END's combined attacks with bare hands, and she is no devil slayer. Zeref has the power of darkness too, and his darkness is far stronger than Gray's. So again, no excuse. Zeref has better feats than END, and could beat him in a fight even if he wasn't immortal in the slightest.

END cannot use savage flames. Natsu can only use savage flames by turning his love for his guild into power. This is literally impossible for END to do, because END's power will dissipate when Natsu starts thinking about his friends. Quite frankly, the burden of proof is on you to prove that END can use savage flames. This is what I mean when I say the only version of END that beats Zeref is imaginary. We literally have to imagine a version of END that doesn't exist, and then imagine he can use powers that he doesn't logically have access to. It's not anything we can find in the manga.

Mavis is not the only one that can kill Zeref. Igneel's power can also kill Zeref. Igneel's power is every bit as haxed as END's power, but several magnitudes stronger in raw power. Zeref was able to give Natsu with Igneel's power a tough fight, tanking several attacks far stronger than END has ever shown.

 

[WoWfan]

No, that is not how this works, he was becoming a demon, his seeds were not fusing. His partial version you mean. No you said that Larcade being stronger than most of the Spriggans means that END is not even that strong. Larcade was injured and Larcade had no reason to fight Zeref, stop saying that he is. Even in his weakened state, he did not die with one hit, you made that up. No you are in denial of the facts that Grays magic is the perfect antithesis to END. Not the same darkness as Gray’s is which is for Demons only, stop relating things which have no relations. END can if his hate is built enough like how Natsu did with his. When he thought about Lucy, his power did not dissipate, so no. FH would not win when END’s becomes intense enough. Igneel’s power is only in theory by Zeref but if possible, then yes it is because of hax, not strength. Thank you for understanding that. If Igneel’s power can kill a war god and cannot kill Zeref not a Spriggan, then his power is not that high a magnitude. So there is no real difference, except for END being able to kill Zeref that is.

 

[Axiomus]

No, that is not how this works, he was becoming a demon, his seeds were not fusing. His partial version you mean. No you said that Larcade being stronger than most of the Spriggans means that END is not even that strong. Larcade was injured and Larcade had no reason to fight Zeref, stop saying that he is. Even in his weakened state, he did not die with one hit, you made that up. No you are in denial of the facts that Grays magic is the perfect antithesis to END. Not the same darkness as Gray’s is which is for Demons only, stop relating things which have no relations. END can if his hate is built enough like how Natsu did with his. When he thought about Lucy, his power did not dissipate, so no. FH would not win when END’s becomes intense enough. Igneel’s power is only in theory by Zeref but if possible, then yes it is because of hax, not strength. Thank you for understanding that. If Igneel’s power can kill a war god and cannot kill Zeref, then his power is not that high a magnitude. So there is no real difference, except for END being able to kill Zeref that is.

His seeds were fusing. That's why he was dying. This is cannon.

Larcade being stronger than most Spriggans doesn't mean Larcade is stronger than END. This is basic deduction. END is still stronger than Larcade, but he's not strong enough to blast a hole Dimaria. Larcade is at least as strong as DImaria, if not stronger. Therefore, END cannot blast a hole in Larcade. Zeref can blast a hole in Larcade. Therefore, Zeref's blasts > END's attacks. My apologies for saying Zeref killed Larcade in one hit. It was 2 hits. END also hits Dimaria twice in their encounter, so it basically evens out.

For the last time, Erza does not have Devil Slaying Magic. She could stop both END's and Gray's attacks without much damage. Nobody is arguing against the fact that Gray is really effective against demons, but saying Gray has devil slaying magic is a poor excuse for END's unimpressive attack power. Zeref's darkness is literally the same as Gray's. I don't know how anyone can possibly know talk about Gray's darkness without acknowledging that Zeref uses the same darkness. Invel's explanation for Gray's darkness is literally that it is the same power that Zeref uses.

Spoiler: Invel's explanation of darkness

Zeref didn't just keel over and die when Igneel's power touched him. It had to be powerful enough to actually do enough damage. Even if I grant you that hax is what allows Igneel's magic to kill Zeref, the sheer amount of raw power is still necessary to prevent Zeref from just tanking the attack. END's attack can be tanked by any mage stronger than Erza. This includes Zeref. Even if Zeref wasn't immortal in the slightest, he still has better feats. You literally have to imagine that END has access to powers he's never shown in order to imagine a scenario in which END beats Zeref.

 

[WoWfan]

Not when he was END he was becoming a demon. By your logic he is, because you said so. END is stronger than Larcade and not only in power but with the special power to kill Zeref, something all other demons lacked. For the last time, Gray and Natsu were not in top condition compared to Erza. Stop going against the facts because that is how the battle is defined with all their impressive power. No it is not, Gray’s darkness is specific Because he can disburse curses, not something that is the same as Zeref’s not the same magic. Which Igneel’s power is only effective because it is the power of the dying. And you are forgetting that what killed a god is the same power that could not kill Spriggans and even reacted to them. Immortal or not, END can just increase his flame’s heat to bypass his time magic, it is imaginary, it is the factual power of curses to become stronger with negative emotions

 

[Axiomus]

Not when he was END he was becoming a demon. By your logic he is, because you said so. END is stronger than Larcade and not only in power but with the special power to kill Zeref, something all other demons lacked. For the last time, Gray and Natsu were not in top condition compared to Erza. Stop going against the facts because that is how the battle is defined with all their impressive power. No it is not, Gray’s darkness is specific Because he can disburse curses, not something that is the same as Zeref’s not the same magic. Which Igneel’s power is only effective because it is the power of the dying. And you are forgetting that what killed a god is the same power that could not kill Spriggans and even reacted to them. Immortal or not, END can just increase his flame’s heat to bypass his time magic, it is imaginary, it is the factual power of curses to become stronger with negative emotions

The seeds were fusing and Natsu was dying. This would have been Natsu's ultimate fate if the seeds weren't destroyed no matter how you spin it. The seeds would have continued to fuse if Natsu had done nothing, eventually killing him. Natsu's corpse would have been END's "ultimate form". The only scenario in which Natsu would become a full demon is one where he purposely destroyed his dragon seed, which would just be stupid decision - as he would lose control of his body and become weaker than if he became a dragon like Acno.

Natsu was in great condition. Or as good as a condition as he could be in with a demon tumor that was killing him. The seed was killing him so long as it existed, so Natsu using END's power would have never been at "top condition". The fact that Gray was wounded just makes END even less impressive, and none of this changes the fact that Erza blocked both his and Gray's enraged attacks bare handed. Zeref would slaughter END if he fought him instead of Gray at that time.

Invel literally tells us that Gray's darkness is the same as Zeref's. It's the only reason we even know Gray uses the darkness in his heart as a power source. To deny this is simply to deny the canon explanation for Gray's darkness. Also, Zeref can easily dispell curses. He created all of the etherious demons. He can do way more than dispell the demon's curses actually. He can dispell the entire demon simply by snapping his fingers. That's what he did to Mard Geer in the Tartarus arc.

Again, power of the dead/dying means very little. Just because someone has the power of the dying doesn't mean they could kill Zeref. Silver gave Gray his magic power the same way Igneel gave Natsu. Gray at Tartarus wouldn't have been strong enough to beat Zeref, let alone kill him. Even if you need hax magic to kill Zeref, that hax magic still needs to be at a certain level of raw power to beat and damage Zeref before you can even think about killing him. Zeref doesn't just keel over and die when someone with the power of the dead touches him. It still has to be powerful enough. Zeref even said that Natsu's ability to kill him was entirely dependent on how much strength he had left.

Natsu was only able to increase the flames to the temperatures necessary to burn time by turning all of his feelings for his guild into power. It's what Natsu himself calls his greatest power. The flames were so strong that it started to burn his own arm. There's no proof whatsoever END can become this powerful with negative emotions. Natsu would have been about as angry as he could get when he thought Lucy died. His attacks using END's power weren't any more impressive than what he could do in FDK mode.

 

[WoWfan]

He wasn’t dying before as he was becoming a demon. That was not the case, it was his own doubt in humanity, he would either be a demon, dragon or human. No proof of Natsu’s death as END’s final form. He was not in great condition especially after slipping into a coma. Even worse after his fight with Gray, the seed was changing him, not killing him, it was his doubt that made the seed kill him. END just powers up to Savage flames and then kills Zeref. And yet in Tartarus it is explained that the black marks are what makes curses disperse, where are the black marks on Zeref? It does when it is specified which power of dying is being used, in this case, Igneel. And at this point raw power would not have worked either way since it cannot kill Spriggans. With curses that is a different story for END, again, not his strongest/final form

 

[LaGOAT]

He wasn’t dying before as he was becoming a demon. That was not the case, it was his own doubt in humanity, he would either be a demon, dragon or human. No proof of Natsu’s death as END’s final form. He was not in great condition especially after slipping into a coma. Even worse after his fight with Gray, the seed was changing him, not killing him, it was his doubt that made the seed kill him. END just powers up to Savage flames and then kills Zeref. And yet in Tartarus it is explained that the black marks are what makes curses disperse, where are the black marks on Zeref? It does when it is specified which power of dying is being used, in this case, Igneel. And at this point raw power would not have worked either way since it cannot kill Spriggans. With curses that is a different story for END, again, not his strongest/final form

Answer this question is END>dimaria?

 

[WoWfan]

END > Zeref

 

[Arjuna]

END > Zeref

WoW simply wow

Look what I did here

 

[WoWfan]

I am glad someone agrees with me

 

[Arjuna]

I am glad someone agrees with me

How can you think I agree Zeref is weaker than END?END was failure on Mashima's part a complete disappointment of the fans.He made END weaker than Zeref.

 

[WoWfan]

Not with the powers he has displayed with him able to kill zeref with immortality. I agree that I was disappointed that we did not get to see more but that doesn’t make him any weaker than what he was as a demon even Spriggans recognized that

 

[Axiomus]

He wasn’t dying before as he was becoming a demon. That was not the case, it was his own doubt in humanity, he would either be a demon, dragon or human. No proof of Natsu’s death as END’s final form. He was not in great condition especially after slipping into a coma. Even worse after his fight with Gray, the seed was changing him, not killing him, it was his doubt that made the seed kill him. END just powers up to Savage flames and then kills Zeref. And yet in Tartarus it is explained that the black marks are what makes curses disperse, where are the black marks on Zeref? It does when it is specified which power of dying is being used, in this case, Igneel. And at this point raw power would not have worked either way since it cannot kill Spriggans. With curses that is a different story for END, again, not his strongest/final form

Yes, he was dying. He was dying when Happy brought him into the guild. Brandish shrunk the tumour, which made him better. Then she regrew it, and he was dying again. He temporarily regained consciousness when Dimaria was about to kill Lucy, then went into a coma after his fight with Gray. He was dying the whole time. Him becoming a demon doesn't mean he wasn't dying. Natsu doubted his humanity the moment Zeref told him he was END. The demon seed started to grow from that point onwards. Natsu can never use END's power and not be somewhat compromised. The tumor's very existence causes him to die.

END can't use savage flames. Stop giving END powers it doesn't have. Savage flames was only possible when Natsu converts the feelings he has for his guild into flames. END runs on negative emotions, like hatred and vengeance. When Natsu thinks about his friendship with Gray and Erza, END's powers dissipated. The two are incompatible. END's feats were nowhere near savage flames level. They're nowhere near the feats Natsu could do with Dragon Force. To be honest, the END's feats don't even stack up to FDK attacks.

Gray's devil slaying magic is what allows Gray to dispell curses. Gray is not the only one who can overpower a curse, nor is devil slaying magic the only way one can resist a curse. Gajeel broke out of Bloodman's Over Skelter without any devil slaying magic. Gajeel even took less damage in this case than Gray did in Tartarus. Zeref can dispell curses without devil slaying magic, simply by destroying the entire demon itself. The demons are Zeref's magic. Anyways, none of this changes the fact that Zeref and Gray both use the darkness in their hearts to fuel their powers.

Read what I am posting more carefully. I'll will grant you for the sake of argument that hax magic is required to kill Zeref. This does not change the fact that the hax magic itself needs to be powerful enough to actually kill Zeref. Before you can even think about killing Zeref, you need a certain degree of power to overwhelm Zeref's own powers and damage him. In a fight, the damage needs to be to the point where Zeref can't fight back. Otherwise, Zeref's just going to beat you up before you can kill him. Zeref did not just drop dead when Natsu touched him with Igneel's power. If Igneel only had enough power for Natsu to use one punch, it would not have been possible to kill Zeref. Zeref specifically told Natsu after his FDK mode punch that Natsu's ability to kill him depended on how much strength he had left.

 

[WoWfan]

All you proved is that when he was not END is that he was dying, not during which doesn’t help you here. The seed did not appear until after his encounter, and the seed is suspiciously located in the same area where Zeref damaged him via book. So that has something to do with it. END can via curse power which becomes stronger via negative emotions which are feelings as well. No, Devil slayer kills demons, his black marks are what makes him disperses curses nothing like Zeref does because he doesn’t have DSM. And with Spriggans desperate to kill Natsu because as END he would become a threat to zeref himself, that is why he has enough power to match a Zeref in full demon form.

 

[Axiomus]

g

All you proved is that when he was not END is that he was dying, not during which doesn’t help you here. The seed did not appear until after his encounter, and the seed is suspiciously located in the same area where Zeref damaged him via book. So that has something to do with it. END can via curse power which becomes stronger via negative emotions which are feelings as well. No, Devil slayer kills demons, his black marks are what makes him disperses curses nothing like Zeref does because he doesn’t have DSM. And with Spriggans desperate to kill Natsu because as END he would become a threat to zeref himself, that is why he has enough power to match a Zeref in full demon form.

Natsu was still dying when he was using END's power. He was just angry enough to keep fighting like Gray was with his injuries. The tumor was killing him ever since Brandish unshrunk it. The tumor started growing because Natsu doubted his humanity, which happened some time after Zeref told him he was END. Damage to the book is irrelevant. The only way Natsu would have been able to become a full demon without the seeds killing him was if he went into his heart and decided to destroy the dragon seed. This would be the worst and least likely choice for Natsu to make, as he would lose control of his body and lose out on all the powers of a dragon. But I digress. The important thing here is that this version of END is imaginary.

Natsu's negative emotions would have been at an all-time-high when he thought Lucy was dead. That was when he fought Gray. It wasn't just any emotion that allowed Natsu to use savage fire. It was specifically the feelings he had for his guild. Natsu even went so far as to say that this was his greatest power. In response, Zeref converted all of his negative emotions into power as well. Zeref has more negative emotions than Natsu. Literally 400 years of pain driving him to destroy the world. Compare this to Natsu's temporary rage that was calmed down when Erza told him to remember that he and Gray were friends. If Natsu had tried to use negative emotions to fight Zeref, he would have been outclassed at Zeref's own game. The entire point of the final fight between Natsu and Zeref was to prove that love was stronger than the darkness in people's hearts. That's why Natsu won. To miss this is to arguably miss the entire point of the series.

Nobody is arguing against devil slaying magic being made to kill demons. However, devil slaying magic isn't the only thing that can kill demons. Demons are not uber strong like dragons where you need slaying magic just to stand a chance. The strongest demons after END is Larcade, whom Zeref can stomp without devil slaying magic. Zeref doesn't even need to use attacks to destroy a demon if he doesn't want to. The demons are created from his magic. He can just snap his fingers and cancel them at any time, like he did with Mard Geer.

Only Invel wanted to kill Natsu, because he was a bit of a fanatic towards Zeref. Everyone else was more concerned with helping Zeref obtain Fairy Heart so that they could deal with Acnologia. Irene and August were way more concerned with Acnologia than anything else. Zeref himself was confident in his chances of victory. Zeref wasn't worried about END's power. He was confident that without Igneel's powers, Natsu couldn't beat him.