Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[Axiomus]

About E.N.D
Zeref said Even E.N.D cannot defeat me
is not it??

Spoiler: ....

Well, there's that too.

Power isn't what you need to kill Zeref, according to Zeref Acno can't kill him either, and of course Zeref hasn't found a way to kill himself with his own power for 400 years, then there is also him not getting Igneel to kill him. Igneel's "power of the dead" stuff could do the job, despite it being noticeably weaker than Dragon Force Natsu and obviously weaker than Acnologia and Igneel.

Seeds merging was causing Natsu to die, but it seems like to me that while Natsu is in his END state it is him actively choosing the demon seed, giving in its desire to kill Zeref. It was Natsu's doubt about what he was that was making them fuse, but as END it didn't seem like there was any doubt in his mind.
As for END itself, i don't see a reason for why it needs to progress his demonization much more than it already had, if it even had more to progress. Base Natsu was already a near equal match for Zeref, END should be able to do the job providing its at least FDKM level and has the same work around that the "power of the dead" has, which it should, since it was literally a magic created to bring back the dead.

I agree that raw power alone can't kill Zeref. But even with the power of the dead, you need something as strong as Igneel's power to actually get the job done. Zeref even said that his next attack's chances of finishing him off is dependent on how much strength he had left. END's power would have to be on this level to kill Zeref, and Igneel-powered Natsu is far above regular FDK. I remain unconvinced that it is. END's attacks were stalemated by Gray's attacks, and blocked by Erza. Even if Zeref wasn't immortal, he could tank this by virtue of his stats alone.

Spoiler

Natsu wasn't making a choice when he was rampaging. He was just, well, rampaging. The seeds were still fusing and killing him at the time, he just kept moving because his feelings over Lucy's death kept him going. He was still going to die once the seeds completely fused. The only reason why Natsu even woke up from the coma in the first place was probably because he sensed when Lucy called out for him.

 

[Seven777]

Well, there's that too.



I agree that raw power alone can't kill Zeref. But even with the power of the dead, you need something as strong as Igneel's power to actually get the job done. Zeref even said that his next attack's chances of finishing him off is dependent on how much strength he had left. END's power would have to be on this level to kill Zeref, and Igneel-powered Natsu is far above regular FDK. I remain unconvinced that it is. END's attacks were stalemated by Gray's attacks, and blocked by Erza. Even if Zeref wasn't immortal, he could tank this by virtue of his stats alone.

Spoiler

Natsu wasn't making a choice when he was rampaging. He was just, well, rampaging. The seeds were still fusing and killing him at the time, he just kept moving because his feelings over Lucy's death kept him going. He was still going to die once the seeds completely fused. The only reason why Natsu even woke up from the coma in the first place was probably because he sensed when Lucy called out for him.

Is it though? It's a tiny fraction of Igneel's power, none of us even expected Natsu to be able to use FDKM without it, but he could regardless, IgNatsu may simply be not all that, Base Natsu's performance certainly makes me think so. Seems like a classic case of Mashima's overhype.
Zeref's stats as shown against Base Natsu doesn't really suggest anything exceptional to me. As for Erza and Gray, meh, it's well within the realm of possibility, Jellal can block an attack from Acnologia, Gray/Erza managing it against the likes of a mere Zeref tier is pretty believable.

I disagree, any doubt Natsu had about himself vanished into the wind the moment he saw a dead Lucy, he clearly gave himself over entirely the desire to kill Zeref, he followed the will of his Demon Seed. Not exactly the same as choosing it I'll grant you, but I saw no implication that the seeds were still fusing, all symptoms of the fusion had after all, stopped. Doubt came back after Lucy returned and Erza interrupted, and his symptoms resumed. Though honestly I have no stake in this part of the argument since I don't care whether END can progress further than what he has shown, I'm not even convinced that he wasn't already fully demonized.

Edit: Oh, and the reason I mentioned raw power not being enough in the first place is because it heavily implies that Zeref thought END would kill him. There was no reason to have Natsu train up with Igneel otherwise, because no matter how strong Natsu got, even as strong as Igneel, he wouldn't be able to kill Zeref. Zeref had to have been relying on END to do the job.

 

[WoWfan]

About E.N.D
Zeref said Even E.N.D cannot defeat me
is not it??

Spoiler: ....

Can you trust a crazy person? He even said before that Destroy him saying Natsu as END

 

[Axiomus]

Is it though? It's a tiny fraction of Igneel's power, none of us even expected Natsu to be able to use FDKM without it, but he could regardless, IgNatsu may simply be not all that, Base Natsu's performance certainly makes me think so. Seems like a classic case of Mashima's overhype.
Zeref's stats as shown against Base Natsu doesn't really suggest anything exceptional to me. As for Erza and Gray, meh, it's well within the realm of possibility, Jellal can block an attack from Acnologia, Gray/Erza managing it against the likes of a mere Zeref tier is pretty believable.

I disagree, any doubt Natsu had about himself vanished into the wind the moment he saw a dead Lucy, he clearly gave himself over entirely the desire to kill Zeref, he followed the will of his Demon Seed. Not exactly the same as choosing it I'll grant you, but I saw no implication that the seeds were still fusing, all symptoms of the fusion had after all, stopped. Doubt came back after Lucy returned and Erza interrupted, and his symptoms resumed. Though honestly I have no stake in this part of the argument since I don't care whether END can progress further than what he has shown, I'm not even convinced that he wasn't already fully demonized.

Edit: Oh, and the reason I mentioned raw power not being enough in the first place is because it heavily implies that Zeref thought END would kill him. There was no reason to have Natsu train up with Igneel otherwise, because no matter how strong Natsu got, even as strong as Igneel, he wouldn't be able to kill Zeref. Zeref had to have been relying on END to do the job.

Well yeah. Because Zeref saw Natsu use FDK Roar right before it, and he was still impressed by Igneel's power nonetheless.

Zeref can tank Savage Flames without dying, DF obliterating his body without dying, and Igneel-powered Natsu's FDK punch. I could even make the argument he got burned less than Natsu himself by savage flames. Zeref has better durability than both Gray and Erza, and the former two can already block END's attacks. The problem isn't whether Erza or Gray can block an attack from a Zeref tier. They can. But uhhhh, so can Zeref. The problem is whether or not an attack that Erza and Gray can block would be able to kill Zeref.

Doubting his humanity is what made the seeds grow. The doubt was always in Natsu's heart as soon as he found out he was END. It didn't disappear. The seeds fusing was something that just happens unless Natsu made the decision to choose one, or neither. If Natsu chose to be a demon when he saw Lucy was dead, then the dragon seed would have already crumbled away.

Edit: Oh, and the reason I mentioned raw power not being enough in the first place is because it heavily implies that Zeref thought END would kill him. There was no reason to have Natsu train up with Igneel otherwise, because no matter how strong Natsu got, even as strong as Igneel, he wouldn't be able to kill Zeref. Zeref had to have been relying on END to do the job.

I don't follow this train of thought. Zeref said that he wanted Igneel to train Natsu so that he could be strong enough to kill him. I don't know how you're interpreting that as him thinking Natsu becoming as strong as Igneel couldn't kill him. Zeref never relied on END's powers in his plans. He quite literally told Natsu that Natsu would have a choice of facing him as himself or END, and that he hopes it to be Natsu.

 

[WoWfan]

Incomplete END less you forget, and it did not stop to grow when he was focused on killing Zeref

 

[Axiomus]

Incomplete END less you forget, and it did not stop to grow when he was focused on killing Zeref

The seeds were already grown. They were simply fusing. Picking one seed would have simply caused the other one to crumble, just like how picking neither caused both to crumble.

The transformation may have been incomplete, but again - no solid evidence that a full transformation could have killed Zeref.

 

[WoWfan]

No evidence that it wouldn’t kill Zeref though.

 

[Seven777]

Well yeah. Because Zeref saw Natsu use FDK Roar right before it, and he was still impressed by Igneel's power nonetheless.

Zeref can tank Savage Flames without dying, DF obliterating his body without dying, and Igneel-powered Natsu's FDK punch. I could even make the argument he got burned less than Natsu himself by savage flames. Zeref has better durability than both Gray and Erza, and the former two can already block END's attacks. The problem isn't whether Erza or Gray can block an attack from a Zeref tier. They can. But uhhhh, so can Zeref. The problem is whether or not an attack that Erza and Gray can block would be able to kill Zeref.

Doubting his humanity is what made the seeds grow. The doubt was always in Natsu's heart as soon as he found out he was END. It didn't disappear. The seeds fusing was something that just happens unless Natsu made the decision to choose one, or neither. If Natsu chose to be a demon when he saw Lucy was dead, then the dragon seed would have already crumbled away.



I don't follow this train of thought. Zeref said that he wanted Igneel to train Natsu so that he could be strong enough to kill him. I don't know how you're interpreting that as him thinking Natsu becoming as strong as Igneel couldn't kill him. Zeref never relied on END's powers in his plans. He quite literally told Natsu that Natsu would have a choice of facing him as himself or END, and that he hopes it to be Natsu.

Sure, it's better, just not that much better, imo. It was overhyped.

Sure, Savage Flames is probably weaker than Acnologia, so Zeref tanking it without dying is hardly surprising, not that he took the full force of the hit.
Sure, you could make that argument, and I could make the argument that Zeref got more burned by DF Natsu than the both of them did by Savage Flames combined.
And if I was arguing that END would punch through Zeref's guard and oneshot him then I'd take that point into consideration, however I'm thinking more along the lines of END doing shit like this

Spoiler

except better, and with the ability to work around Zeref's immortality. As I see it, Gray and Erza being able to block the attacks are largely irrelevant, because people on their general tier have managed to accomplish the same against foes with greater power than IgNatsu, eg Jellal blocking Acno. Gray freezing an attack from Merc impresses me more than if he had done it to IgNatsu.

Sure it did, in what world was Natsu feeling something like "doubt" when he was literally out of his mind charging at Zeref? All his other petty worries vanished the moment he saw Lucy, he was literally a demon at that point and he didn't care a bit. As for the dragon seed crumbling away, not necessarily, like I said he didn't actually choose the seed, at least not in a conscious way, he just gave in to the seeds desire, the only question is at what point does that actually become the choice that decideds between the two seeds. That aside, the symptoms of the fusion disappeared as END, and returned when END was gone, coincides with Natsu's doubt leaving and returning.

Because unless Zeref was relying on ENDs power, entrusting him to Igneel is entirely pointless. No matter how strong Igneel made Natsu, Natsu would never be able to kill Zeref. The fact that he chose Natsu as the one who would kill him, means that he knew Natsu already had the means to do it as a child and just needed the strength to implement it, aka END.
As for him telling Natsu he hoped it would be him he would face, not END, that's not what he said. Zeref told Natsu that he hopes it would be Natsu that he saw again, not who he would fight.

 

[Axiomus]

Sure, it's better, just not that much better, imo. It was overhyped.

Sure, Savage Flames is probably weaker than Acnologia, so Zeref tanking it without dying is hardly surprising, not that he took the full force of the hit.
Sure, you could make that argument, and I could make the argument that Zeref got more burned by DF Natsu than the both of them did by Savage Flames combined.
And if I was arguing that END would punch through Zeref's guard and oneshot him then I'd take that point into consideration, however I'm thinking more along the lines of END doing shit like this

Spoiler

except better, and with the ability to work around Zeref's immortality. As I see it, Gray and Erza being able to block the attacks are largely irrelevant, because people on their general tier have managed to accomplish the same against foes with greater power than IgNatsu, eg Jellal blocking Acno. Gray freezing an attack from Merc impresses me more than if he had done it to IgNatsu.

Sure it did, in what world was Natsu feeling something like "doubt" when he was literally out of his mind charging at Zeref? All his other petty worries vanished the moment he saw Lucy, he was literally a demon at that point and he didn't care a bit. As for the dragon seed crumbling away, not necessarily, like I said he didn't actually choose the seed, at least not in a conscious way, he just gave in to the seeds desire, the only question is at what point does that actually become the choice that decideds between the two seeds. That aside, the symptoms of the fusion disappeared as END, and returned when END was gone, coincides with Natsu's doubt leaving and returning.

Because unless Zeref was relying on ENDs power, entrusting him to Igneel is entirely pointless. No matter how strong Igneel made Natsu, Natsu would never be able to kill Zeref. The fact that he chose Natsu as the one who would kill him, means that he knew Natsu already had the means to do it as a child and just needed the strength to implement it, aka END.
As for him telling Natsu he hoped it would be him he would face, not END, that's not what he said. Zeref told Natsu that he hopes it would be Natsu that he saw again, not who he would fight.

It would have had to been much better because, again, Zeref was much more impressed by it than he was by FDK roar.

Well my point is that Zeref didn't die to either Flames of Savage Emotions or Dragon Force. And yes, technically speaking Zeref's body got obliterated by DF. He still didn't die from that either. END's attack was stuffed by Erza, so I don't even think Zeref needs to tank it per se. I think he can hold out his hand and block it. Even if he wasn't immortal. I agree that END can probably fight on par with Zeref like base Natsu did. Maybe even better. That's not really going to kill Zeref though.

I suppose it depends on how much power you think Igneel left to Natsu. I consider the FDK finisher with Igneel's power to be a stronger attack than Acnologia's casual attack. In the case of Mercphobia's pillars, Gray could only freeze one of them temporarily before Mercphobia turned it back into water. He couldn't freeze Mercphobia's big attacks like the whirlpool. I am dubious on whether Gray can freeze IgNatsu's attacks in the first place, and even if he could I doubt it'll hold.

In what world was Natsu having doubts when he was lying in a coma? The seeds grew because Natsu was doubting his humanity, not whether or not he doubts his will to kill Zeref. That doubt began when Zeref told him he was END, and it didn't go away until he decided he wanted to be human again. The seeds were fusing the entire time. Choosing one seed would have caused the other to crumble away. I suppose you can argue that he didn't choose the demon seed in a conscious way and only gave into it's influence....but then that wouldn't stop the seeds from fusing anyways. He'd still be dying.

You lost me. Zeref's plan was for Igneel to train Natsu to be strong enough to kill him. Not only does he not include END in his plan, but he actually told Natsu that he hopes he would destroy END the next time they meet during Tartaros. Zeref literally said that Natsu would have the choice of destroying END or not, that only one of them would face him, and he hopes that it would be Natsu. I mean, you could say that he wasn't looking for a fight....but he's still telling Natsu that he would have the choice of destroying END or not, and that he hopes he does. How was Natsu going to tap into END's power after that?

 

[GL_Nova]

If we start Selene next, it pretty much confirms that Viernes and Ignia are top dogs.

 

[WoWfan]

It was more eager to actually face Natsu, not impressed by it, weaker END attack which Erza still got injured from. Zeref handed Natsu over to Igneel because he would not listen to him. Zeref said he hoped that it was Natsu to meet him, while he was hoping for END to be resurrected too, so he cannot be trusted with actual conscious decisions.

 

[LaGOAT]

Lol According to @WoWfan FG zeref is planet level but base natsu>FH zeref therefore base natsu is planetary level but also he believes end is the strongest form of natsu power therefore END is at least planet level+ gray slatemated him meaning gray is planet level too erza stop 2 planetary level attacks which has planet level+ durability (makes sense she can eat irene dragon claw attack and till able to move to bust a meteor causally) 2. In this sequel gajeel was eating planetary level attacks from base natsu natsu used DF “weaker version“of natsu to down aldoron. Confirmed aldo is fodder

 

[Ramen]

Lol According to @WoWfan FG zeref is planet level but base natsu>FH zeref therefore base natsu is planetary level but also he believes end is the strongest form of natsu power therefore END is at least planet level+ gray slatemated him meaning gray is planet level too erza stop 2 planetary level attacks which has planet level+ durability (makes sense she can eat irene dragon claw attack and till able to move to bust a meteor causally) 2. In this sequel gajeel was eating planetary level attacks from base natsu natsu used DF “weaker version“of natsu to down aldoron. Confirmed aldo is fodder

Too many run on sentences.

 

[Axiomus]

It was more eager to actually face Natsu, not impressed by it, weaker END attack which Erza still got injured from. Zeref handed Natsu over to Igneel because he would not listen to him. Zeref said he hoped that it was Natsu to meet him, while he was hoping for END to be resurrected too, so he cannot be trusted with actual conscious decisions.

He literally said "I am truly impressed by your power".

Spoiler

Zeref had Igneel help teach Natsu how to read or write, because yes....Natsu wouldn't listen to Zeref. That doesn't change the fact that he wanted Igneel to teach Natsu magic so that Natsu could be strong enough to kill him. These are 2 separate things. Zeref didn't send Natsu 400 years into the future because he wanted Natsu to learn how to spell. Come on now.

He never hoped that END would be resurrected.

 

[WoWfan]

you said that about his roar, that was after Natsu used Igneel's Fire, then again, you can't trust his words for he is crazy, again, that was for Igneel to help them with their own plans, Zeref cannot be trusted with what he said. HE did when he complimented on Mard Geer almost resurrecting him

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 8, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 8, 2020 ---

Lol According to @WoWfan FG zeref is planet level but base natsu>FH zeref therefore base natsu is planetary level but also he believes end is the strongest form of natsu power therefore END is at least planet level+ gray slatemated him meaning gray is planet level too erza stop 2 planetary level attacks which has planet level+ durability (makes sense she can eat irene dragon claw attack and till able to move to bust a meteor causally) 2. In this sequel gajeel was eating planetary level attacks from base natsu natsu used DF “weaker version“of natsu to down aldoron. Confirmed aldo is fodder

Well END was capable of overcoming god powers, Zeref's immortality is god-based, so it makes sense. END was not complete when he fought against Gray, Erza was still injured so she has no durability against that, same with Irene's attacks.

 

[Axiomus]

you said that about his roar, that was after Natsu used Igneel's Fire, then again, you can't trust his words for he is crazy, again, that was for Igneel to help them with their own plans, Zeref cannot be trusted with what he said. HE did when he complimented on Mard Geer almost resurrecting him

What? I said that Zeref was more impressed by Igneel's power than by the FDK roar he used against the army.

Zeref went along with Igneel's plan and took him up on the offer because he wanted Natsu to become strong enough to kill him. He even went out of his way to actually build the Eclipse and get Anna's help. He didn't do all this to get Natsu to read.

No he didn't. He said a few nice words to Mard Geer out of pity. If Zeref truly wanted to reawaken END, all he has to do is quite simply open the book.

 

[WoWfan]

oops, my bad, but still, it is not like he said that to Igneel or anyone, just Natsu, it was more a personal goal, besides he was crazy, on how Natsu failed to kill him or wasn't strong enough, yes he did, he it was praise for his efforts, opening the book does not awaken END, it required the eradication of the continent's magic to create null energy, that is how powerful it is.

 

[Axiomus]

oops, my bad, but still, it is not like he said that to Igneel or anyone, just Natsu, it was more a personal goal, besides he was crazy, on how Natsu failed to kill him or wasn't strong enough, yes he did, he it was praise for his efforts, opening the book does not awaken END, it required the eradication of the continent's magic to create null energy, that is how powerful it is.

I don't know what you're trying to say here. @Seven777 and I were comparing regular FDK to Igneel's power. I pointed out how Zeref was much more impressed by Igneel's power than he was by FDK roar. Zeref wasn't being crazy when he made those statements, and the fact that he didn't say it to Igneel is kind of irrelevant.

Opening the book caused END's power to go into Lucy. Zeref just needs to open the book, and make END's power go into Natsu. Should be easy enough, given that Zeref is the creator and Natsu is the intended host.

 

[WoWfan]

Yet if anything proven, is that not even Igneel knows how to end Zeref even With his power, it is relevant since he wants END to destroy him later on, no, that is not the same thing as awakening END as Natsu would have realized, that was just a side affect of tampering with the book, corrupted by demonic scriptures and plunged to darkness, opening the book only shows the contents of Natsu’s life.

 

[Axiomus]

Yet if anything proven, is that not even Igneel knows how to end Zeref even With his power, it is relevant since he wants END to destroy him later on, no, that is not the same thing as awakening END as Natsu would have realized, that was just a side affect of tampering with the book, corrupted by demonic scriptures and plunged to darkness, opening the book only shows the contents of Natsu’s life.

Uhhh what? No. Nothing has proven that Igneel didn't know how to end Zeref's life. In fact, if anything has been proven is that the only thing that Zeref has explicitly said could kill him was Igneel's power. He's not said this about anything else, including END's power.

END's demonic power went into Lucy's body. That's why Gray's devil slaying magic worked on it.