Feminism

[shionoro]

Feminism is a Topic which seems to be impossible To discuss in a civil and nonemotional or hostile manner.
Either it gets into militant shitstorms over nothing, or into a series of strawman argumentations.
I have seen my fair share of otherwise seemingly rational People who suddenly talked about femnazis wanting to 'censor everything' and 'trying to cuckhols males'.
I have also seen People getting angry over actually harmless jokes and exaggerating a stupid remark into abuse.

Personally, I see myself at least very far into the Feminist spectrum as a man.(since feminism has no real Consensus on stances and Goals, i find it hard to call myself a Feminist since my views could be very detrimental to the views of another Feminist).

But the lack of rational discussion about this Topic is really frustrating.
Most People I Encounter who are strongly anti Feminist don't really seem to know what views in feminism are reasoned how and only know Populist sources who talk about shorthaired angry women who hate men.
And many People calling themselves feminists do a horrible Job communicating what they mean and what their actual reasoning is and choose to get upset and angry instead of reasoning clearly and with acceptance of differing views.

So, what is your take on this matter?

 

[xi0]

I have no issue with Feminism really. By it's broadest definition it's motivations were/are definitely righteous and required in order to bring about greater equality between the genders.

However, I think there are a lot of instances with modern feminism (third-wave feminism), that are quite honestly way too self-righteous and harmful to a feminist's supposedly most important tenet, equality. I think this, coupled with general misogyny, is what fuels a lot of the backlash someone who identifies as a feminist might receive in this day and age (as well as the anonymity of the internet).

I think where a lot of feminists start to lose people is when it comes to certain aspects of intersectional theory and how some feminists insist on coupling issues using both "intersectional feminism" as it were. Obviously there are other aspects to someone's identity than just gender or ethnicity, but a lot of it feels self-defeatist and sanctimonious. The latter of which tends to repel me in general whenever it comes to discussions anything regarding ideology/sociology.

Another issue is those who take a more authoritarian stance when it comes to what sort of language is acceptable and what isn't, regardless of intent, context, etc. As someone who supports the freedom of speech as a major tenet of any civil society, the type of reaction some people get in feminist circles seems incredibly hardline and unreasonable. This is generally what provokes the classic "feminazi" comment that you mentioned.

And this is just my anecdotal ramblings and doesn't exist as a foil to anything you've said here, sorry if it comes across as being a sort of logical fallacy you mentioned in your post...just my thoughts for now

 

[z.5]

Everyone should be a feminist.
I'd go so far as to suggest that people who aren't are either arseholes or they don't understand what 'feminism' actually is about.

At it's core, it's about equality - not all the other bullshit which seems to get attached to it...

 

[MArGi]

There are actually many people who are feminist at heart while being afraid of using that word; as you say, they either don't understand that it's just about equality or they just associate it with all the cliché that media sometimes chose to focus on.
Many men also don't get that feminism is not only about women's rights. Even though the current society is unfair to women on a larger scale than to men, there still are many cases in which men's rights are flouted in favor of women's - in case of divorce for example - or in which the stereotypes of society have an impact on their life choices.

Now:

And many People calling themselves feminists do a horrible Job communicating what they mean and what their actual reasoning is and choose to get upset and angry instead of reasoning clearly and with acceptance of differing views.

I am definitely guilty of that sometimes. I am trying to work on it, as I know it doesn't really help the cause. Sometimes it's just too much though and I admit I am short-tempered when it comes to some specific points.
Yes, it is an emotional topic. That's why sometimes what you see as an harmless joke can get people angry - do you have any example of said jokes? I twitch a bit when I hear people using rape in a joking manner for example - like "this team has lost, the players were raped by the other team" (don't know if that type of expression is really used in English-speaking countries, but that's the case in France). Like in everything else, the discussion will greatly depend on what the person you're talking to has been through/his culture/his background.

 

[xi0]

Everyone should be a feminist.
I'd go so far as to suggest that people who aren't are either arseholes or they don't understand what 'feminism' actually is about.

At it's core, it's about equality - not all the other bullshit which seems to get attached to it...

But doesn't the "bullshit" seem sort of attached to it, even in the mainstream? I guess it's up the interpretation. But when I see people insisting on "gendering" all aspects of life, including things that have nothing to do with an individual, my head starts spinning and I tend to tune them out...

I mean, maybe it's just me, but while agreeing with the core concept, I still don't feel the need to identify as one. Maybe someone would consider me one regardless, but it's sort of become a loaded term in this day and age. And in general, I sort of find folly in the insistence on anyone identifying themselves as members of any ideology (_______ist), rather than just finding common ground with aspects of it. Otherwise it seems doing so would be counterproductive to anyone who values and appreciates the individual (maybe some irony here, oops). Delving into more specific topics has it's place, but I think the golden rule .or altruism, or something like social egalitarianism sort of cover the same bases. But I understand that the latter term is apparently nigh-verboten now to some feminists. Maybe it's competition between ideology or something, but I still don't quite understand that honestly.

 

[z.5]

But doesn't the "bullshit" seem sort of attached to it, even in the mainstream? I guess it's up the interpretation. But when I see people insisting on "gendering" all aspects of life, including things that have nothing to do with an individual, my head starts spinning and I tend to tune them out...

People love to attach bullshit to whatever they can.

Sometimes damaging their own cause/concept/idea - and sometimes to damage someone else's.

But I'd rather define something by the underlying cause - rather than all the excess which some people feel is part of it and some people do not.

... people insisting on "gendering" all aspects of life...

Is the exact kind of bullshit I am talking about.

I mean, maybe it's just me, but while agreeing with the core concept, I still don't feel the need to identify as one.

Whether you identify as one or not, doesn't change the fact of if you are one or not.

I do agree that terms can be misleading - and often, you can be drawn into a whole sphere of 'perceived beliefs', which you are meant to share, purely through associating with a specific cause (atheism for example).

However
So long as you agree that:
- women should have equal representation in law/power/at work
- women should have the same pay for working the same job as a man
- women should not be forced to dress, or act, in a specific way to please men (to be honest, unless you are the parent of a child, then no one should be telling anyone what they should, or should not, be wearing)

Then I feel you are a guy which I am happy to talk to.

If you feel that women are, or should be, in any way inferior to men (in what they can/should do, or in what their role in society should be) - you can fuck right off.

But I understand that the latter term is apparently nigh-verboten now to some feminists.

Luckily, I have never come across any militant feminists - but I wonder at what point they go so far past what I believe 'feminism' to be, that I can no longer consider them to be one...

 

[xi0]

But I'd rather define something by the underlying cause - rather than all the excess which some people feel is part of it and some people do not.

Well, not sure whether to say that you're in the minority on it or not, because taking a snapshot of a specific part of the internet as the standard for something probably isn't fair in any case. But there almost certainly has to be a "silent majority" who think the way you do. Because there is a lot of noise and even mainstream outlets for such things (places like Buzzfeed, Salon, or The Guardian as examples). Like most outlets, maybe they're fishing for juicy headlines or something...but yeah.

However
So long as you agree that:
- women should have equal representation in law/power/at work
- women should have the same pay for working the same job as a man
- women should not be forced to dress, or act, in a specific way to please men (to be honest, unless you are the parent of a child, then no one should be telling anyone what they should, or should not, be wearing)

No problem with any of this. But there does still tend to be a lot of intellectual dishonesty regarding the "wage gap". Even politicians like Clinton or Sanders bring this up. I think there is definitely an underlying issue regarding why women might pick lower-paying jobs on average, and this is related to traditional thinking and and ideas about gender-roles that many might consider archaic. But I fail to see examples where men and women aren't making comparable wages for working the same job. And this is what many people seem to want to imply.

And bringing up the issue of parenting. While I may never have a daughter myself, at no point would I ever discourage them from choosing whatever field of study/employment that they're drawn to. But as an example, apparently women are somehow actively being discouraged from getting into careers in the STEM field, while I don't think I've ever actually known any women in STEM jobs who experience such a thing. But people seem to only be taking statistics into account there and not necessarily lifestyle choices, etc.

If you feel that women are, or should be, in any way inferior to men (in what they can/should do, or in what their role in society should be) - you can fuck right off.

Well, if it is in no way an issue of biology, of course not. That's just common sense IMO.

 

[shionoro]

I am definitely guilty of that sometimes. I am trying to work on it, as I know it doesn't really help the cause. Sometimes it's just too much though and I admit I am short-tempered when it comes to some specific points.
Yes, it is an emotional topic. That's why sometimes what you see as an harmless joke can get people angry - do you have any example of said jokes? I twitch a bit when I hear people using rape in a joking manner for example - like "this team has lost, the players were raped by the other team" (don't know if that type of expression is really used in English-speaking countries, but that's the case in France). Like in everything else, the discussion will greatly depend on what the person you're talking to has been through/his culture/his background.

I think that's fine. being shorttempered with people who are just attacking you is not what i meant.

What i mean is for example the following situation: I know a couple of which one girl is lesbian and the other is bi.
And when i was on a party with them last time, one of them kept telling the other (and other people aswell) several times when she thought they spoke wrongly about others. She kept going on about what she thought was slutshaming or having stereotypical roles, even if it was ABSOLUTELY uncalled for.
It was a very casual setting, and one girl got some coke on her breast and made fun of it by acting like on a wet tshirt contest.
Then the lesbian girl cheered her on and said 'ya, do the pamela anderson', and immadietly her partner scolded her for being slut shaming.
The lesbian girl explained that she did not want to slut shame anyone, but pamela anderson did similar things in baywatch. After that discussion started, and while it was not furious or hostile, it was still clear that it killed the good mood without any reason.

We were invited by another couple who just got the flat we were in. And another such thing happened when the lesbian girl told our female host that she did a good job at decorating the flat.
Her partner started right away telling her that it is sexist to think that the woman has to decorate the flat, to which the lesbian girl replied that she knows that our hostess enjoys decorating and our host doesnt. And once again, discussion started, killing the mood without any reason over something so harmless.

I mean, i am all for saying when some wording offends you personally or freaks you out.
Like with your example, if i was or if i know a rape victim and someone keeps on using that word in a casual manner like that, then i am all for telling him that this hurts me. It does not mean the other has to stop, but if he doesnt, you know that he is not your friend.
I understand that jokes are often veiled aggression used to belittle others.
But this was really none of those and it were not even topics which actually had anything to do with anyone in the room.
I could understand if she would get mad about someone using the word fag or anything like that as being bi herself.
But the thing is that noone was offended. There is, in my opinion, a difference between the active 'i am offended by this because it hurts me' and the passive 'i find this offensive' when noone in the room is actually hurt and everyone is having fun.
Noone felt slutshamed, noone felt like anyone tried to tell a woman what to do.
Most people just felt a bit annoyed and sighed (most people knew the bi girl sometimes is like that, she is still a nice person and liked, its not like people went full on 'FUCKING FEMNAZIS' after that).

And this, in my opinion, is a prime example of wasted energy and a lack of communication. Noone in that room, to my knowledge, has any hurting or threatening thoughts about homosexuals, women with many sex partners or would try to shame a masculine woman, but i bet a lot of them role their eyes about some feminist topics because they (in that case rifhgtully) feel like there is just someone who wants to be offended.

 

[M3J]

I'm annoyed when women who have feminist ideas claim uncertainty whether they're feminist, if not outright denying it. But unfortunately, that term has negative connotation, so I can somewhat understand. I would label myself as a feminist because I believe in equality, from equal wage to no discrimination, whether hiring a woman for a job or man getting custody of a child in divorce. It irks me when men claim they have it worse, especially when they don't have to be scared of being raped, be told they look ugly, or have to get up early to look good.

I abhor feminazis, meninists, and anti-feminists though. I also hate the patriarchal society that countries like US and India enjoy because not only do they hold the women back, but they take away freedom.

 

[xi0]

It irks me when men claim they have it worse, especially when they don't have to be scared of being raped, be told they look ugly, or have to get up early to look good.

Why are any of these things something exclusive to women for you? I mean, aside from maybe getting up early because, while there are men who care as much about their appearance as the average woman might, they probably don't have to worry about removing and applying makeup (if that isn't the case then I've been fucking up for so long )

There's also this weird trend I've seen from some feminist sources saying that the retail industry is sexist because women's toiletries can cost more than men's. Like when it comes to soap, shampoo, shaving razors, deodorant, etc. It just strikes me as bizarre that they would characterize this as sexism, as if someone is being forced to buy the product that has flowers on it, or if the labeling has some sort of feminine implication on it. It's like the simple economic concept of supply and demand doesn't exist or something.

I also hate the patriarchal society that countries like US and India enjoy because not only do they hold the women back, but they take away freedom.

Do you really think the US and India should be mentioned in the same sentence when it comes to this topic? Really?

 

[shionoro]

Do you really think the US and India should be mentioned in the same sentence when it comes to this topic? Really?

Obviously not. India had TWO female prime ministers, so it is obviously much more feminist than the US. Because things work that way. This is why the US is the most anti racist western country due to Obama (i am sorry i had to say that because that is what someone actually told me regarding that topic^^)


What i actually wanted to answer is your input about the first amendment.
I know that we disagree on the topic of whether insults or certain history revisionist ideas should be persecuted or not.
But i am absolutely on your side when it comes to censoring anything else. Like, if people think a tarantino movie should be censored or forbidden because someone says 'nigger' in it, then that goes too far. Freedom of art is very important in my opinion and if art is not allowed to provoke it becomes meaningless.

However, the first amendment and such ideas are often misued to generate shitstorms and tell a narrative about evil censoring feminists when it is not quite there.

I will give two examples, with the first one involving that sargon of akkad guy
This guy goes on and on about censoring feminists while often completely disregarding common sense.
There was a shitstorm abotu dead or alive beach volleyball. The guys who produce the game (tecmo) said they did not want to bring out one installment of the game due to 'fear of sexism complaints'.
Akkad prior complained about minor things like giving some girls in some games less revealing clothes, and he took it as evidence that feminists censor media.
However, feminists had nothing to do with it. DOA BV was never even a big target of any feminist backlash. A look onto sales shows us that the series simply got less and less popular and a release in the western world was a risky move. Claiming they are afraid of a feminist backlash was a way of appeasing fans while defelcting the blame for Tecmo. It is not like they ever cared for any backlash before or after except for this one spin off game of a series with shrinking sales.
And that is one of the things i find intellectually dishonest. And people still jumped on that train a lot.

The second example would be about the ghostbusters movie, and i can illuminate it better than the first one:
NOw, ghostbusters movie was announced and a lot of people hated it and blamed evil feminists for destroying their franchise (which was not touched for decades and would have got a hated sequel no matter what the sequel was).
Not like anyone in making that movie was a feminist or whatever, but they were still to blame.
Hatewars raged between feminists and the anti femghostbusters crowd.
In this mealstrom, the angry video game nerd (guess you know him) released a video about not wanting to watch that movie. The video was not sexist in any way and while you can question his logic (he watched alot of horrible sequels, but that one was somehow too 'soulless'), it was not disrespectful or hateful.

There were (this is a given) some blogs and twitter messages going on about how it was still sexist. But those were far inbetween, there never was a popular hashtag and there were like two or three blogs saying some nasty things about AVGN. So, by internet standards, it basically had no reaction except the avgn fans agreeing with him. After that, THIS happened:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=avgn+sexist

Every single one of these videos on the front page (and every other on the later pages, i checked) 'defends' the poor avgn from the evil feminists who want to 'assassinate' him. No video anywhere to be found on youtube attacks him. I was in the comments, asking a lot about 'who' attacks him and the only answer i got was 'twitter' without anyone being able to actually link to any messages or hashtags. It didnt the AVGN was not actually attacked. They just created their videos getting millions of clicks with people in the commends ranting about femnazis.
Ranting about censoring feminists often has nothing at all to do with reality but with people who want to getmad and hate on feminism

All these loud bearded men goign on about how irrational the feminists are while defending someone from imaginary threats are a very good example of what my problem with the 'anti censoring crowd' is. I am against censoring, but they are rather for using the claim of censoring against other people.

Those guys were also nowhere to be seen when the AVGN movie came out and the AVGN ACTUALLY got attacked by, (you guessed it) anti feminists who claimed that AVGN is shit now because he has a wife who 'cuckholds' him and and who had a too prominent role in his movie....
He didnt need defense now. He just needs it when imaginary femnazis attack him.

 

[MArGi]

I think that's fine. being shorttempered with people who are just attacking you is not what i meant.

[...] And this, in my opinion, is a prime example of wasted energy and a lack of communication. Noone in that room, to my knowledge, has any hurting or threatening thoughts about homosexuals, women with many sex partners or would try to shame a masculine woman, but i bet a lot of them role their eyes about some feminist topics because they (in that case rifhgtully) feel like there is just someone who wants to be offended.

I see. The argument around Pamela Anderson sounds a bit contradictory from her but I can't really tell since I don't have the full context. In any case, I agree, I think she is a bit overdoing it. But at least those discussions - especially with friends - can maybe make her realize that she sometimes doesn't have the best approach or that she jumps to conclusion too quickly.

No problem with any of this. But there does still tend to be a lot of intellectual dishonesty regarding the "wage gap". Even politicians like Clinton or Sanders bring this up. I think there is definitely an underlying issue regarding why women might pick lower-paying jobs on average, and this is related to traditional thinking and and ideas about gender-roles that many might consider archaic. But I fail to see examples where men and women aren't making comparable wages for working the same job. And this is what many people seem to want to imply.

It actually took me a long time to understand that the wage gap was based on men and women working the same job when I first heard about the issue. I am a bit skeptical as to how they can even figure that out; but I do think that even if the numbers were not exactly accurate or even amplified, there is an actual gender-based wage gap in most working fields.
I can think of a some examples for which it's obviously true like professional gaming, acting, jobs in some media and sports in general.

 

[M3J]

Obviously not. India had TWO female prime ministers, so it is obviously much more feminist than the US. Because things work that way. This is why the US is the most anti racist western country due to Obama (i am sorry i had to say that because that is what someone actually told me regarding that topic^^)

India is waaaaaaaay way than US when it comes to treating women equally. At least most rapists, as long as they're not celebrities, will face justice here. In India... who the fuck knows? I don't know where India is ranked when it comes to human rights, but based on what I've read, it shouldn't be that high. I do hope you're not serious.

Why are any of these things something exclusive to women for you? I mean, aside from maybe getting up early because, while there are men who care as much about their appearance as the average woman might, they probably don't have to worry about removing and applying makeup (if that isn't the case then I've been fucking up for so long )

There's also this weird trend I've seen from some feminist sources saying that the retail industry is sexist because women's toiletries can cost more than men's. Like when it comes to soap, shampoo, shaving razors, deodorant, etc. It just strikes me as bizarre that they would characterize this as sexism, as if someone is being forced to buy the product that has flowers on it, or if the labeling has some sort of feminine implication on it. It's like the simple economic concept of supply and demand doesn't exist or something.

But how many men are criticized for not looking perfect or like models? I'm sure if many women go out without makeup or take pictures of themselves without makeup, someone will criticize that somehow. If men did the same without paying too much attention, no one will care that much. What time would the man have to get up early? I've heard women have had to get up around 5-6 in the morning to do their hair and makeup instead of 7 or 8.

Products targeting them is more expensive likely because manufacturers think women will spend more money. What I have an issue with though, is how feminine products like tampons and shit are/were taxable and tend to cost money. Many women add that condoms for some reason can be handed out for free, which is poppycock in their eyes. Personally, I think products essential personal care like tampons and condoms should be nontax and cheap, if not have a way to be acquired for free.

Do you really think the US and India should be mentioned in the same sentence when it comes to this topic? Really?

Yes. The main difference is that US is miles ahead when it comes to women's rights, but still.

 

[xi0]

However, the first amendment and such ideas are often misued to generate shitstorms and tell a narrative about evil censoring feminists when it is not quite there.

I think a lot of it is paranoia, but in the case of Gamergate or whatever, it's sometimes founded as companies have kowtowed to public outrage for fear of losing potential customers.

Just because I espouse freedom of speech, doesn't necessarily mean that issues like these are a matter of it. A company can decide whatever they want about what their product contains.

All these loud bearded men goign on about how irrational the feminists are while defending someone from imaginary threats are a very good example of what my problem with the 'anti censoring crowd' is. I am against censoring, but they are rather for using the claim of censoring against other people.

Well, I personally don't give much thought to the whole GamerGate nonsense and the like. I think the movement started for a legit reason - a criticism of games journalism, but it's sort of evolved into something so completely nebulous and ponderous to me. I personally don't care if people think there's too much TnA in a game like Dead or Alive, etc. But I think it's strange that people have made a career trying to dictate how women are "negatively" portrayed in videogames (implying that the average game is a paragon of compelling/substantive/worthwhile fiction LUL...like, go read a novel ffs).

As far as Ghostbusters and media in general go, I agree with you with what you basically said earlier in your post - there is no point in moralizing taste. I personally sort of saw it as a rather "lazy" spin on the formula with maybe a bit of pandering. The problem I think exists there is that it was marketed as some statement on gender equality, when in reality it's just a movie studio finding yet another way how to suck money out of people and exploit media attention, good or bad. I thought the trailer looked mediocre, despite liking people like Wiig and McCarthy from previous stuff and Feige as a director of some decent movies. I had no real desire to see it prior to ever seeing the trailer, and the same old story about corporate-mandated movie-making continued, so I didn't see a point in supporting it either. That doesn't mean it's an objectively bad movie or anything and it doesn't mean I won't see it on cable sometime and the future and not laugh at it either.

It actually took me a long time to understand that the wage gap was based on men and women working the same job when I first heard about the issue. I am a bit skeptical as to how they can even figure that out; but I do think that even if the numbers were not exactly accurate or even amplified, there is an actual gender-based wage gap in most working fields.
I can think of a some examples for which it's obviously true like professional gaming, acting, jobs in some media and sports in general.

Perhaps, but professional gamers, athletes, actors, media personalities... Are these examples actually germane to the topic and 99% of the population? I guess my point is that, for example, if you told me a male actuary makes more than a female actuary, regardless of tenure, experience, etc. If there were more examples like this, then I think there'd be more merit to the claim honestly.

But as far as women making less than man on average, it's almost always related to lifestyle choices. Not that a female employee is somehow less valuable to a company than a male one. And making less due to such things should not result in value judgments purely on a monetary basis.

It can go the other way in some aspects of life as well, as the mortality rate is almost always higher among men and they therefore pay more for things like automobile insurance, etc.

But how many men are criticized for not looking perfect or like models? I'm sure if many women go out without makeup or take pictures of themselves without makeup, someone will criticize that somehow. If men did the same without paying too much attention, no one will care that much. What time would the man have to get up early? I've heard women have had to get up around 5-6 in the morning to do their hair and makeup instead of 7 or 8.

Products targeting them is more expensive likely because manufacturers think women will spend more money. What I have an issue with though, is how feminine products like tampons and shit are/were taxable and tend to cost money. Many women add that condoms for some reason can be handed out for free, which is poppycock in their eyes. Personally, I think products essential personal care like tampons and condoms should be nontax and cheap, if not have a way to be acquired for free.

Anyone who criticizes someone for their appearance, unless between friends or from a well-intentioned place, is a douchebag. How many people would regularly go up to women and tell them they look bad unsolicited? The same amount of people who tell me my beard is too long, aka no one. If it does happen, then it's probably some sort of exceptional circumstance involving a sociopath. If you want to have a discussion about whether there is more "commotion" around a woman's appearance compared to a man, than that's sort of a different topic.

Of course, that was my point. If women weren't buying them, they wouldn't make them. What should and shouldn't be subject to sales tax is sort of it's own topic really. Do women deserve to not have to pay tax on products related to menses because men don't have to worry about it? I mean, that sort of seems like a petty argument to have. And as far as condoms go, one gender wears one, but that doesn't mean only men benefit from them being used. Women buy condoms too.

Yes. The main difference is that US is miles ahead when it comes to women's rights, but still.

"mentioned in the same sentence" wasn't meant literally. Your point in this reply is why I said it. India isn't a first world country, and has huge issues like that- caste system, high poverty levels, etc.

 

[M3J]

Anyone who criticizes someone for their appearance, unless between friends or from a well-intentioned place, is a douchebag. How many people would regularly go up to women and tell them they look bad unsolicited? The same amount of people who tell me my beard is too long, aka no one. If it does happen, then it's probably some sort of exceptional circumstance involving a sociopath. If you want to have a discussion about whether there is more "commotion" around a woman's appearance compared to a man, than that's sort of a different topic.

Of course, that was my point. If women weren't buying them, they wouldn't make them. What should and shouldn't be subject to sales tax is sort of it's own topic really. Do women deserve to not have to pay tax on products related to menses because men don't have to worry about it? I mean, that sort of seems like a petty argument to have. And as far as condoms go, one gender wears one, but that doesn't mean only men benefit from them being used. Women buy condoms too.


"mentioned in the same sentence" wasn't meant literally. Your point in this reply is why I said it. India isn't a first world country, and has huge issues like that- caste system, high poverty levels, etc.

Seems men do it often to women, and many women have stated they do not like being told by random men to smile, even in their photos. Dunno what that's about though. I do think there's more commotion, even if the stories aren't entirely true about men approaching women adn commenting on their looks.

I think the issue is that women are annoyed they have to pay even more to keep up their appearance as opposed to men, as well as pay taxes on feminine products and stuff while condoms can be handed out for free. Both genders benefit from condoms, but it seems male condoms are given out for free or cheap without an issue while tampons aren't. though, I think there are women condoms too, but I don't know much about them other than the fact that they seem pretty rare in stores that aren't geared for adults and naughty-naughty.

I know, but the point is that the countries suffer from mistreatment of women, though countries like India and Africa are way worse. I mean, in India the honor of families are put on the women instead of men, and if a woman somehow doesn't follow the custom of learning to cook and be domestic, she gets treated like an abnormal outsider. Though, I've seen many Americans make fun of women who don't know how to be domestic as well.

 

[xi0]

Seems men do it often to women, and many women have stated they do not like being told by random men to smile, even in their photos. Dunno what that's about though. I do think there's more commotion, even if the stories aren't entirely true about men approaching women adn commenting on their looks.

Have you ever personally witnessed a man any of that to a woman? Any anecdotal evidence of such a thing at all? Or are you just going off of people reiterating the truism that it shouldn't happen?

Hell, I don't like people commenting on telling me to smile either. I don't think a comment like that is necessarily "gendered".

I think the issue is that women are annoyed they have to pay even more to keep up their appearance as opposed to men, as well as pay taxes on feminine products and stuff while condoms can be handed out for free. Both genders benefit from condoms, but it seems male condoms are given out for free or cheap without an issue while tampons aren't. though, I think there are women condoms too, but I don't know much about them other than the fact that they seem pretty rare in stores that aren't geared for adults and naughty-naughty.

But no one is actually forcing them to do this. And insinuating such a thing is going against the notion that women don't wear makeup for anyone other than themselves.

Condoms aren't given out for contraception purposes only, they're given out because they're a prophylactic.

I know, but the point is that the countries suffer from mistreatment of women, though countries like India and Africa are way worse. I mean, in India the honor of families are put on the women instead of men, and if a woman somehow doesn't follow the custom of learning to cook and be domestic, she gets treated like an abnormal outsider. Though, I've seen many Americans make fun of women who don't know how to be domestic as well.

My point was that the issues in the US, The West, or first-world countries cannot be compared in severity to the issues women face in India, or Sub-Saharan Africa, etc.

 

[M3J]

Have you ever personally witnessed a man any of that to a woman? Any anecdotal evidence of such a thing at all? Or are you just going off of people reiterating the truism that it shouldn't happen?

Hell, I don't like people commenting on telling me to smile either. I don't think a comment like that is necessarily "gendered".


But no one is actually forcing them to do this. And insinuating such a thing is going against the notion that women don't wear makeup for anyone other than themselves.

Condoms aren't given out for contraception purposes only, they're given out because they're a prophylactic.


My point was that the issues in the US, The West, or first-world countries cannot be compared in severity to the issues women face in India, or Sub-Saharan Africa, etc.

Not personally, no. Women do seem to share stories though, so I assume there's a degree of truth to it, and it isn't just women stating a hypothetical situation shouldn't happen.

Yeah, but women seem to get it more. Dunno, I don't understand the complaint in there anyway. It is odd to me anyone has a problem with being told to smile, though it is you, so I'm not shocked you do.

According to whom? I've seen few anecdotes from women where they say they get judged by their looks, and how they've noticed certain women who aren't as good as they are get hired, promoted faster, or somehow favored when the boss is a male. Many have also shared stories how men comment on their makeup as if they think women wear it to impress them. Maybe it's false, I don't know, but there are stories of such things happening, and them being forced to do this. I'm not arguing makeup and shit should be cheaper, especially when there are cheaper brands on the market, just that feminine stuff and stuff like condoms should be tax-free and cheap, and even given away at places like Planned Parenthood.

Yes, I know. Ninety-nine percent effective in preventing STD or pregnancy.

I wasn't comparing them, just saying they exist no matter where.

 

[shionoro]

Well about casual sexism:

As a man, i obviously have less stories than a woman, but just in my study years i still have encountered more than enough of it.

For example the different behaviour of students to each other:
When guys in math asked other guys for help, they got a short explanation but if they didnt study enough at all they got told off (except if you put insane amount of work into your slacking, like creating a network of different smart guys of whom you asked for 1 exercise each so you could puzzle the whole homework together. Not that i did that).
Women never got told off, so at first you might think that is a thing unfair for men. But the effect was actually much worse: A lot of the guys simply didnt take the women who were not good serious. They gave them explanations and offered to meet to help them study and all that stuff, but they only made the women dependend. The guys who got told off either broke up studying or started to learn themselves.
The women who had trouble inititally almost all broke up because at some point they got frustrated. Add to that that some of the smart guys started making comments of 'well as woman its fine if you don't understand'.
Which is really kinda stupid because in the top 5 of the people i started studying with there are 3 women, but oh well.

Then i went tutoring to make some money and you wouldnt believe how many children and parents told me they wouldnt ask female tutors because 'women cannot teach math as well'.

I do not often see a woman being catcalled (tbh, math and IT people are not exactly alpha predators), but even then i have seen nasty stuff like women being stalked by rejected guys.
My best female friend said about areas which i found perfectly safe that she had often been verbally molested when she went home there at night.

Those are only just single occasions and anecdotes, but i do think that there is a sexist stance at least dormant in a lot of society (and not only in men).

 

[xi0]

Then i went tutoring to make some money and you wouldnt believe how many children and parents told me they wouldnt ask female tutors because 'women cannot teach math as well'.

Speaking towards that, I sort of get a different impression. Girls are usually always more trusted than males as far as working with children goes (usually starts with something as simple as babysitting). That might be leaning more towards them having a maternal instinct.

Also, there are statistics regarding the fact that here in the US, on average, female students have better grades and there are more women going to college or qualifying for scholarships than men.

 

[M3J]

Also, I see a lot of Hillary opponents call her ugly and point out her unattractive looks and marriage, as if that affects how she'll run the country. Trump opponents point out his unattractiveness and tan as a way to insult him while explaining why he shouldn't be a president. However, I don't understand why Hillary's marriage is brought up when Trump is the one who cheats and remarried twice.