Discussion FUG Elder vs Corp Commander

VON

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Khel Hellam and Sophia Tan vs Kallavan and Yasratcha

Who do you guys think belong to a stronger position.

Gotta remember that Hellam canonically fought both EVK and Yama at once. Sophia could block Traumerei’s shinwonryuu for a while, something that could of killed that Top 3 branch leader Spider if not for the family leader’s shield treasure. While the Corps Commanders are self explanatory, they’re cream of the crop among top 100 tier fighters we’ve seen.
 

fluffers

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Everything we've seen suggests the elders are stronger than the Corps Commanders. The fact that Khell could take on a full Ancient EVK and near total transformation Yama was the baseline proof

But Sophia managing to protect all those rankers and regulars from Rei's Shinwonryuu just tells me they'd spank the Corps Commanders and it wouldn't be hard.
 

Demonspeed

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I think the Elders win. Even before Yama's huge power up I don't think Kallavan could have fought both Evankhell and Yama at once.

Kallavan did get a power up too but I am not sure it would be a factor here.
 

Kallavan

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Even though I love Yasratcha and Kallavan, I would bet more on the elders, and Sophia has been really impressive so far, even spider mom was like "she is extremely powerful", a statement made by someone who might be > Evankhell.
 

Shadowlord123

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As many caveats as the Khel Hellam vs Yama/Evankhell had, I still believe Hellam to be the most impressive CC Tier fighter we've seen on-screen. Even Evankhell, who I'd put a cut beneath him (but still on the same league), was deemed as the most dangerous person from FUG's side at the war (when they had the likes of Prime White who are easily as strong as Corps Commanders). Sophia Tan was also extremely impressive and greatly exceeded my expectations with her Light-House skills which were good enough to block Traumerei's Shinwonryuu for some little time.

I'd say the FUG Elders we've seen so far >= Corps Commanders we've seen so far. I reckon both belong in the same general league considering the way SIU talked about them, but I find the Elders more impressive so far personally. Well, unless we're talking about Kallavan after his power-up. That version of Kallavan stands on another level compared to the CC Tier fighters we've seen and can easily slap them around. At the same time, the power of Ancient users seems to be restricted by the Admin, so we can't accurately guess how strong they are (maybe it's because of this that Evankhell was deemed the most dangerous? Because most of her portrayal doesn't really put her above CC Tier fighters, but if we take into consideration the power she can't normally use, she might be).

The Elders take this, except for the one that got offed by Karaka :yodawg
Tbh, the more we see about the Elders, the more I'm convinced that Karaka pulled some strings in this whole "Elder assassination" thing, and that he didn't kill the Elder by himself in a direct fight. So far it doesn't really look like the gaps between them should be very significant after all (though we've only seen 2 so there's room for this to change)
 

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Yeah, elders so far seem pretty impressive. Though I am not sure that necessarily translates to how they would perform 1 vs 1 against someone else. Sophia could block traumerei's shinwonryu, which is almost unbelievable, but lightbearers are not exactly an offensive type of fighter. Light bearers are primarily support types, maybe even defensive types. She might not make a good matchup against, say, kallavan. Of course, we have no idea of what the rest of her specks are. Maybe she is so OP her bare fist put her light bearing to shame.

Khel hellam's performance against yama and evankhel definitely shouldn't be dismissed. I think rak also adds a bit of context regarding him and evankhel. Rak's ancient powers have shown they are special enough that it can catch rankers of guard. Now apply this to someone of khel hellam's caliber.... Or evankhel. As impressive as khel hellam was here I think there are a lot of caveats.

Then, I wouldn't rule out power boosts yama and kallavan got. Yama became capable of using his full transformation comfortably and repeatedly. And what we saw was not even all of it. He even managed to put a dent on traumerei's dragon. It also seems likely that he is not done growing. He might yet get his father's final fang and we know he got some power from akrinac. He might even be ackrinac's host. Kallavan was tired but him still getting owned by lyboric says a lot of lyborick... and his boost flipping the tables is also significant. SIU has a lot in store for these characters...
 

Jubei_Kibagami

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I think, based on very little (well, I suppose the aforementioned Karaka 'kill' of an elder) that there will be more variation in power levels of the FUG elders than your 'run of the mill' CC, which seem to be probably close to on par with each other. Excluding Adori ofc, who it is my personal head-canon until proven otherwise she is also operating as the 1st CC. While I also wonder how many CCs there actually are (at least 2 more - possibly 3, but maybe multiples more if there are <5 corps...), but I digress.

Older is generally understood as stronger in the tower (as you get stronger with age AND have proven to have survived the dog-eat-dog enviroment that is essentially 'survival of the fittest' - as such only the strong should be left from ancient times), and FUG elders should be just about as old as anyone can be in the tower, so there's that. But, then there is the fact that not everyone ages into strength at the same rate, nor starts at the same point. Case in point Kal Rahim, 'Wall' chairman and clearly on the older side (presumably a ranker) yet unable to defend to the same extent as a Slayer or Wall Hero would be able to do (by virtue of being reliant on either and/or their respective armies). As such, not every ancient elder is automatically CC or CC+ level, though maybe likely. Soo-oh is another, just as old as Khel (or thereabouts) and yet she was roughly matched to YHS. While she is a guide rather than a fighter per se, it is just very clear that being old is not the be-all, end-all for strength, though those that survived that long probably trend on the stronger side.

The point is some FUG elders might 'just' be elders by virtue of being around from that time frame (maybe some were lucky to survive if not on the beastly level). If Khel was the strongest proto-FUG had at the time, he is the ceiling for the strength of an elder (excluding Luslec himself if he even counts). Unless for some reason a freakshow aged into strength at a stronger rate than even Khel (is it linear... or?), he's the top and the ceiling. Sophia is likely close, but not quite Khel level (as much fun as it is to shit on Khel). There's also the ancient beast in Khel, which is very rare. Sophia with an ancient power perhaps.... though Khel in the flashbacks did not seem to have/use/rely/have even met the ancient power he had at the time he was proto-FUGs then champion. So, he likely is leaps and bounds higher than the next tier of elders (even including Sophia) once the ancient power is considered. Sophia's showing was significant, but how to extrapolate that into raw battle power who knows. I'd say she is quite easily CC considering Frieza was the next-closest to Kalla and she would dwarf even Frieza's lighthouse abilities. Does that mean she would surpass a CC light-bearer (if one such existed)? Hard to say. Would be an interesting turn of events to find out Sophia has an ancient power as well (we really haven't seen the extent of her abilities), and the Luslec shoe-horned one into all of the foundational elders...

I doubt many small fry from that time period survived the battles, but not every elder automatically has to be tippy-top. There could have been some ancient divco (or even lower tier) FUG elder equivalent.

Take Khun Hynd Luch for example. He was around when Khel was, but clearly not as talented as Khel (then or present time). He maxed out at present-day divco levels. Had he stayed in FUG (or rather ancillary to them, likely later consolidated), he'd likely have been considered an elder (maybe) due to him coming from the time of their formation (essentially, elders are foundational FUG members). The same with the Wall Heroes - which have been highly debated as either being <CC or MAYBE on CC level, but slightly less. Cha is a wild card here because SIU won't let him comfortably show his abilities, but at least Dowon isn't screaming CC level. On par at *best* for her.

Taro York I'd venture to guess is present-day divco level as well (maybe even lower). Had he not been captured he might have made it to the elder table as FUG consolidated Genesis heroes, particularly Hidden Grove.

Toro is even more underwhelming, as ancient as he is. I can't imagine he would even be a tough fight for a divco in the Z army.

And while proto-FUG existed in some form before Hidden Grove, there was some overlap in the timeline. Khel was the best of early FUG, and took the best Hidden Grove members (all mentioned above) as the cream of the crop to work alongside a young FUG (Khel himself and some others) as an ill-fated strikeforce against Zahard. So they (Hidden Grove members) would qualify as what Khel considers strong anti-Zahard forces for that ancient period (during and after 'Genesis' however long that was) and come from the same ancient cohort as Khel himself, a defacto FUG elder and founding member as such. Khel had not necessarily preexisted some of the Hidden Grove members, though proto-FUG (those that fought with V and Arlen when they initially defected) did. FUG was technically established in the Age of Genesis when Hidden Grove also operated. I wonder if Khel fought under Luslect pre-Genesis as well... was it a 'requirement' to be an elder of FUG to have fought under V/Arlen/Luslec? Or just anyone that was strong and against Zahard at the time Luslec decided to continue carrying the flag? If the later then Hidden Grove members could have technically qualified - had they not all been killed, sealed, or taken prisoner. As such they are a good measure of what a FUG elder *could* be, coming from similar time in the Tower.

We don't know how many elders survived the foundation of FUG either. We basically only know of Luslec (he counts as one of everything in FUG, really), Khel, Soo-oh, and Sophia (3-4 tops... are there any more?). Hell, that might be it same as there might not be any more than 5 (or less) CCs. Alternatively, there could be more of either or both.

In any event, absent Luslec, I think Khel is an outlier.

This is contrasted to CCs which should be roughly equivalent in strength. Maybe. They are current corps leaders that have to be qualified in the power level associated with the position, so the creme rises to the top at roughly the same level, and in the same period (contemporary). Unless there is some thought-process to the corps number in relation to force projection (ascending or descending level of power), then CC2 should be roughly CC5 and so on (even as far as the total number of corps... CC33?). As expected from a military where ranks and structure is repeatable more or less. CC1 who knows because Adori, but it may also be that CC1 is another character roughly in the Kallavan-class tier. Much like Yas. That is to say - predictable and uniform.

So, if Khel is an outlier (although not everyone is even convinced Khel and EVK are CC+ level), and possibly (probably) surpasses a run-of-the-mill CC, what does that mean for all other weaker elders then?

THEN

What of the Slayers themselves? If the Slayers are positioned as, well, slayers (of FH's) then they would presumably have to be the top-tier of what FUG has to offer. Much has been said about how they have a fool's errand to do as they technically can't kill a FH anyways, regardless of strength, but also current Slayers quite simply are no match irrespective of the immortality contracts the FHs hold. OK, so there may have been stronger first-gen Slayers, right? They were ancient and thus had to be what you'd consider 'qualified'.... only Yama has been compared to them himself, by none other than Khel who should know their abilities.

So what then? Are Slayers just ceremonial and nonfunctional? Technically yes, but what if the immortality contract can be voided, destroyed, bypassed, or rescinded? Well, Slayers STILL ain't shit. Even the first-gen ones if you consider Yama is indicative of what they can muster.

The whole point here? Well, if we consider the assumption that all (or most) elders are CC+ level (the consensus here so far) while the slayers themselves are barely CC level (arguable, but certainly not CC+), then why the fuck aren't the elders the Slayers instead, while the Slayers (weaker) just operate as 'helpers' to the elders? Elder divcos essentially.

FUG composed of elders as the strongest FUG has to offer would then be functioning with a weaker set of Slayers which are absurdly supposed to be strong enough to kill a FH (one day...). Does not compute.
 
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