Match Fuji vs Nakagauchi

[Kaoz]

Fuji Syusuke
Speed: 3
Power: 3
Stamina: 3
Mental: 4
Technique: 5​

Nakagauchi Sotomichi
Speed: 2.5
Power: 4
Stamina: 5
Mental: 3
Technique: 5​

Let's talk about how a match between these two would go. Fuji's relevant counters probably are Tsubame/Houou Gaeshi, as well as Hecatoncheires and possibly Hoshi Hanabi. In this context I'm especially interested in hearing everyone's opinions on what stats are required to hit Hecatoncheires back cleanly.

 

[Ninomiya]

A fairly entertaining match-up

Honestly, due to Fuji's stat total being rather disappointing. This match isn't even concrete for Fuji.
His move set are like a set of magic spells and once you master the abilities to deflect a few of them, you can pretty much grind out a victory.

The only clear thing in stats Fuji has going for him is Mental.
Nakagauchi isn't catching Houou Gaeshi with that joke speed, a 4 in Power can't break Kirin Otoshi either, but Nakagauchi's play style rarely uses Smashes therefore Fuji won't get more than 1 or 2 points off of that.
I believe to hit back 5thCounter cleanly, you need only a 4.5 in Tech. A 4 in tech will knock it into the cord of the net and over to Fuji's court and allow you to be greeted by "The unreturnable" 6thCounter.

Fuji has Closed Eyes however which makes him more threatening, as it "heightens his abilities" or something along those lines.
Nakagauchi has Cordball which is a suicidal type move against Fuji Shusuke. It wouldn't even be funny if Nakagauchi brought that out saying
"Ha! It's too soon for you to reach this level, Middle Schooler! Have a taste of my special shot: Cordball".

With a 5 in Tech Nakagauchi will break 4thCounter.
I'm kinda on the fence with how easy Hakuyryuu is to break.
If Fuji rotated between a Hakuyruu+Hakugei combo it could be quite dangerous no?

6-4 to Fuji atm for me.
I'll have to re-read Nakagauchi VS Krauser and then re-watch Fuji VS Shiraishi to return to this.

 

[Kaoz]

Nakagauchi isn't catching Houou Gaeshi with that joke speed, a 4 in Power can't break Kirin Otoshi either, but Nakagauchi's play style rarely uses Smashes therefore Fuji won't get more than 1 or 2 points off of that.

I agree with this, he won't get to Houou Gaeshi in my mind. What I'm concerned about in this context though is how easy it would actually be to hit it. From what I remember, Fuji needs some preparation time for this counter and when he's constantly getting moved around by corner shots, that might not be too easy - so overall I feel like he wouldn't win a lot of points this way.

I believe to hit back 5thCounter cleanly, you need only a 4.5 in Tech. A 4 in tech will knock it into the cord of the net and over to Fuji's court and allow you to be greeted by "The unreturnable" 6thCounter.

I agree on the latter part since it's what Shiraishi has (although you could argue that Fuji probably had a 4 before when Shiraishi had a 3.5, so you'd get the cord ball return if you're half a point behind). Is there any particular reason why you think a 4.5 is enough to hit it back cleanly though? Or is it just a gut feeling (which would be fine for me since we don't have anything concrete to base it on)?

I'm kinda on the fence with how easy Hakuyryuu is to break.
If Fuji rotated between a Hakuyruu+Hakugei combo it could be quite dangerous no?

I feel like Hakugei/Hakuryuu wouldn't play a huge factor in this match since they seem to be counters for net play. Nakagauchi is a baseliner though, so that situation won't occur very often, if at all.

On the subject of Fuji's own cord balls, I have similar concerns there as what I said above about Houou Gaeshi, that is how easily can he actually hit them? As far as we know he needs to be reasonably close to the net for them after all, and if he has to run from side to side constantly, that might not be the easiest thing to pull off. On the defensive end, Fuji has the same speed as Krauser, and only one point more stamina, so while he'll definitely give more of a fight, I'm not sure if he could keep catching up to Nakagauchi's shots over the course of the match without running out of energy.

 

[Ninomiya]

I agree with this, he won't get to Houou Gaeshi in my mind. What I'm concerned about in this context though is how easy it would actually be to hit it. From what I remember, Fuji needs some preparation time for this counter and when he's constantly getting moved around by corner shots, that might not be too easy - so overall I feel like he wouldn't win a lot of points this way.

Fuji has a 5 in Tech so he and Nakagauchi are equal in this regard.
I believe Fuji would slaughter Krauser for instance.
so in all honesty, There will be no running from side to side from Fuji.

Fuji and Nakagauchi will be engaged in some good rallies.
So Fuji won't find it too difficult to bring out his special moves.
If we just look at a bunch of others with a 5 in Tech, it becomes clear:
Yagyuu, Yushi, Marui, Niou, Kite, Chitose, Yanagi & Akutagawa all have a 5 in Tech.

It strongly depends on how well you see these guys handling Fuji's counters.
In theory, none of the above mentioned will drop more than a game to 5thCounter for instance. A 5 in Tech is really high.

I see Fuji being able to use his counters on Nakagauchi, but moves like Hakuryuu and 4thCounter will be comfortably contained imo.

I agree on the latter part since it's what Shiraishi has (although you could argue that Fuji probably had a 4 before when Shiraishi had a 3.5, so you'd get the cord ball return if you're half a point behind). Is there any particular reason why you think a 4.5 is enough to hit it back cleanly though? Or is it just a gut feeling (which would be fine for me since we don't have anything concrete to base it on)?

It was initially a gut feeling but after looking at these stats I will say a 5 is required to shit on 5thCounter.
However, Tokugawa only has a 4.5 in Tech.
Obviously, I don't think that's his real stats, but in the case that it is his real stats, it changes a lot of things.
I believe 1 point behind can hit into the net and hopefully over it. But equal or above to Fuji's Tech then you can return it.

I feel like Hakugei/Hakuryuu wouldn't play a huge factor in this match since they seem to be counters for net play. Nakagauchi is a baseliner though, so that situation won't occur very often, if at all.

Agreed, however when Fuji goes CE, and spams Cord Ball, Nakagauchi more or less screwed since he's slow.

On the subject of Fuji's own cord balls, I have similar concerns there as what I said above about Houou Gaeshi, that is how easily can he actually hit them? As far as we know he needs to be reasonably close to the net for them after all, and if he has to run from side to side constantly, that might not be the easiest thing to pull off.

Like I said, unlike Krauser, Fuji's Tech is equal to Nakagauchi's.
Fuji won't be sent running back & forth like Krauser was therefore using Cord Ball or other special moves will be much easier for Fuji unlike Krauser who lost like 4 games till he finally landed a point on Nakagauchi.

I'd like to change my decision to a Fuji 6-3 Nakagauchi victory.
Fuji's array of special moves is too much after going over it again.

 

[Kaoz]

Fuji has a 5 in Tech so he and Nakagauchi are equal in this regard. I believe Fuji would slaughter Krauser for instance. so in all honesty, There will be no running from side to side from Fuji.

Fuji and Nakagauchi will be engaged in some good rallies.
So Fuji won't find it too difficult to bring out his special moves.

I agree that Fuji would dispatch of Krauser like Nakagauchi did, but I don't agree with your conclusion that this means Fuji wouldn't be running from side to side.

The reason why Krauser had such difficulty was because of his Speed and Stamina more so than his Technique I think, and while Fuji has 1 more Stamina, his Speed is the same, so it'll just take longer until he's tired out, but he won't get to the shots any better.

Now of course Nakagauchi also only has 2.5 Speed, and because Fuji has more Technique, he won't just be able to stand in the middle of the court either. However, I think this would result in both of them being forced into a defensive position more than anything, and in that scenario Nakagauchi's extra 2 points of Stamina are more valuable Fuji's extra 0.5 points of Speed. I also maintain that Fuji wouldn't be able to consistently hit Gaeshi in that situation.

It strongly depends on how well you see these guys handling Fuji's counters.
In theory, none of the above mentioned will drop more than a game to 5thCounter for instance. A 5 in Tech is really high.

Yeah, even though it seems counter intuitive for some of them, I'd agree that they should be able to handle Heca pretty well.

Agreed, however when Fuji goes CE, and spams Cord Ball, Nakagauchi more or less screwed since he's slow.

Fuji is only half a point faster than Nakagauchi, so the same should apply to him as well. On top of that, we've only seen Fuji hit cord balls once he closed in on the net whereas Nakagauchi did it as soon as he had some breathing room from the baseline, so Nakagauchi would probably hit cord balls more frequently.

I'd like to change my decision to a Fuji 6-3 Nakagauchi victory.
Fuji's array of special moves is too much after going over it again.

Well, like you said previously, Fuji's special moves besides Gaeshi and CE should be pretty much useless, so I feel like this would come down more to Stamina. I think it'd be a close match, but I'd say Nakagauchi would win more consistently.

 

[Hardy]

I have to read both arguments here, but I can't see Nakagauchi winning, considering middleschoolers around and below Fuji's tier gave a fight / won against members of the top 20 (all of them, very likely, better than Nakagauchi).

 

[Ninomiya]

Fuji is only half a point faster than Nakagauchi, so the same should apply to him as well. On top of that, we've only seen Fuji hit cord balls once he closed in on the net whereas Nakagauchi did it as soon as he had some breathing room from the baseline, so Nakagauchi would probably hit cord balls more frequently.

But 6thCounter is a counter for Cord Balls.
6thCounter is unreturnable especially for players of Nakagauchi's caliber.
It would be suicide to repeatedly hit Cord Balls against Fuji.

I agree that Fuji would dispatch of Krauser like Nakagauchi did, but I don't agree with your conclusion that this means Fuji wouldn't be running from side to side.

The reason why Krauser had such difficulty was because of his Speed and Stamina more so than his Technique I think, and while Fuji has 1 more Stamina, his Speed is the same, so it'll just take longer until he's tired out, but he won't get to the shots any better.

But why do you say this?
Had Krauser had higher Tech, then the opportunites that he did get to hit the ball when he was running back & forth, would obviously result in far better placed shots.
I mean, the whole point that Nakagauchi was completely dominating the rallies was that he had better Tech.
For instance, would anybody like Shiraishi have to resort to running back & forth between sides to beat Nakagauchi? I say hell no.

Now of course Nakagauchi also only has 2.5 Speed, and because Fuji has more Technique, he won't just be able to stand in the middle of the court either. However, I think this would result in both of them being forced into a defensive position more than anything, and in that scenario Nakagauchi's extra 2 points of Stamina are more valuable Fuji's extra 0.5 points of Speed. I also maintain that Fuji wouldn't be able to consistently hit Gaeshi in that situation.

Yes, but HG isn't Fuji's only asset, Fuji gets a really nice boost from CE first of all, since Nakagauchi simply cannot predict where Fuji's shots will land.
Making each Fuji shot more dangerous than each Nakagauchi shot.

Well, like you said previously, Fuji's special moves besides Gaeshi and CE should be pretty much useless, so I feel like this would come down more to Stamina. I think it'd be a close match, but I'd say Nakagauchi would win more consistently.

Honestly? Nakagauchi doesn't have Cord Balls at his disposal since its suicide against someone with 6thCounter.
Secondly, Nakagauchi seriously won't have Fuji running back and forth, since its not like Nakagauchi can really outrally him.
I mean, why would Speed & Stamina make a difference in terms of who dominates a rally against Nakagauchi?
Do you expect Base!Tokugawa to be running back & forth from left to right sweating from head to toe and grinding out a win against Nakagauchi?
Hell no, he'll just outrally him.
There's no way Nakagauchi will have the freedom to just spam corner shots against Fuji.

More importantly, Fuji's moves don't require the user to sprint up to the net and perform a mighty swing.
So his moves use less stamina than Krauser's.
Fuji practically can't lose here.

 

[Kaoz]

Fair enough on Hoshi Hanabi, somehow I actually forgot about that. Your point about Tokugawa doesn't make much sense though since Tokugawa has 4.5 at base in both Speed and Stamina as opposed to 3s, so it's not really comparable.

If Nakagauchi gets in charge of the point (on his service games for instance), I don't see why he wouldn't be able to make Fuji run around. Whoever strikes first is at an advantage here because the one who got sent running won't be able to return the ball as precisely and will continuously get pushed back; I see no reason why this wouldn't apply. And in that case, if this kind of play continues depending on the server, I think Stamina can be a deciding factor in the outcome.

Fuji doesn't have to run to the net for his special moves, but Tsubame/Houou Gaeshi still require a big swing and a standing position to execute (at least we've never seen otherwise from what I recall), so I don't see him being able to do it when he's running around that much. Maybe I'm underestimating the frequency he would get it off a bit, but 6-3 is too generous.

@Hardy
Kawamura/Kabaji lost horribly and "won" because Date acknowledged their will power or something. Oishi/Niou lost the Synchro duel and only won because of a specific counter that works against no other move. Inui won because of Renji playing first and because Mitsuya was arrogant. Momoshiro/Kenya won because Momoshiro got BJK, which is a far stronger move than anything Fuji has (maybe not Hoshi Hanabi, but that's far more difficult to set up). Yukimura's and Kintarou's wins were legit, but not easy, and both of them are far superior to Fuji in the first place.

 

[ashore]

i post no value on analysis, but i can say the reason fuji probably wont get to play a real match soon is, because he always evolves and konomi have to make up new counters on every new fuji tough match.

 

[Ninomiya]

Fuji doesn't have to run to the net for his special moves, but Tsubame/Houou Gaeshi still require a big swing and a standing position to execute (at least we've never seen otherwise from what I recall), so I don't see him being able to do it when he's running around that much. Maybe I'm underestimating the frequency he would get it off a bit, but 6-3 is too generous.

You're right. 6-3 was far too generous.
6-4 at best for our beloved Fuji.

 

[meowmachine]

I find 5th counter's return rate pathetically high. It loses to Shiraishi: 3.5 Tech.

Then again, semi-Data player Niou with 5 in Tech does lose a few games to it.