Shounen Gintama by Sorachi Hideaki

[Goral]

Spoiler: 503 & 504

I can't believe so many people are fooled by this red, bloody herring. Of course Sho-chan is not dead.

1) It's pretty obvious that shogun knew exactly what Hattori was about to do and that it was some part of a bigger plan. Assuming he knew (and there's no reason to think otherwise) he wouldn't waste resources (which he gained thanks to people paying taxes) on air/sea/land expedition. Well, one might say that he wanted to bait his enemies but what would be a point of him dying then and giving them what they wanted? This wouldn't make sense any way I look at it.
2) It's been emphasized throughout whole manga that Hattori is one of the greatest ninjas ever (and the best still alive). Most recently in chapter 503. Ergo he could have killed the shogun any time he wanted - even more so since he had access to him as Oniwaban member (leader?). But even if shogun was well protected it still wouldn't stop him (is there anyne who doubts that?). So why now and not earlier? Or later?
3) It was no coincidence that there was a witness left. It was theatrical even. He specifically incapacitated Maizou in a way that his eyes and mind were 100%. Why would he even do that to an extremely old cripple if not to prevent him from going too near to shogun's face? Which brings me to:
4) It was no coincidence that we've seen a kawarimi no jutsu performed by young Hattori. If he could fool "the greatest ninja ever" as a child with a cheap prop imagine what he could do now. Seriously, Sorachi couldn't be more blunt with this.​

 

[Master OZ]

Ad Goral

Spoiler

number 3 - In a world with DNA analysis, such theatrics would be broken immediately. It was known that there are decoys, so they would still need a a readily available witness to verify that the REAL Shogun is dead until eventual analysis to verify that is complete - hence Rottenmeier´s survival.
number 4 - If he can create a prop fooling the high science of Gintama´s world (which is not verified at the moment) then I will believe you.

 

[Goral]

@Master OZ

Spoiler

Except DNA tests take quite a bit of time and with country on the brink of civil war (and Shinsegumi being extremely busy) there would be no one to investigate his "murder" (which would give Hattori time to do whatever he plans on doing). What's more, for some reason Hattori took the shogun's head with him which also means that no one could identify shogun from up close. That's also no coincidence.

Of course it's possible that I'm wrong but there are too many odd things to take what we saw for granted.

 

[Master OZ]

@Master OZ

Spoiler

Except DNA tests take quite a bit of time and with country on the brink of civil war (and Shinsegumi being extremely busy) there would be no one to investigate his "murder" (which would give Hattori time to do whatever he plans on doing). What's more, for some reason Hattori took the shogun's head with him which also means that no one could identify shogun from up close. That's also no coincidence.

Of course it's possible that I'm wrong but there are too many odd things to take what we saw for granted.

Spoiler

DNA tests take at least a month, in the meantime Rottenmeier´s testimony that Hattori killed the Shogun (hence R´s left alive) and Matsudaira´s testimony that real Shogun was indeed there (since that was the plan he was privy to) can be taken as a trustworthy grounds that real Shogun was indeed killed until the test are complete (they must act now, they can´t wait for these tests to be complete, because in the worst case if the Shogun was indeed killed then they would lose precious time in indecisiveness). The Shinsengumi are a martial force, not some scientists and Shogun being a person of utmost importance I am sure there would be a lab that would do these tests. As for the reason Hattori retrieved Shogun´s head; well if he works for somebody else, then when asked whether he really killed Shogun he just brings up the head, and if he does not work for anybody then he could preserve it until a right time for a funeral or something like that.

I know under a specific view this whole assassination affair screams FAKE!!!, but if Hattori really wanted everybody else to think he killed Shogun then he should had kidnapped Shogun, slaughtered the whole ship with no witnesses leaving Shogun´s fate up in the air, because then it would stand to a reason Shogun would have to appear to prevent the destruction of his faction and since he wouldn´t then that would mean he is dead.

Also I don´t mean to downplay Hattori´s battle prowess, but that replacement was played a bit for fun, I guess.

 

[Goral]

DNA tests take at least a month, in the meantime Rottenmeier´s testimony that Hattori killed the Shogun (hence R´s left alive) and Matsudaira´s testimony that real Shogun was indeed there (since that was the plan he was privy to) can be taken as a trustworthy grounds that real Shogun was indeed killed until the test are complete (they must act now, they can´t wait for these tests to be complete, because in the worst case if the Shogun was indeed killed then they would lose precious time in indecisiveness).

You do realize that the above only reinforces my hypothesis that it's all a ploy. I've mentioned about DNA tests taking time in my earlier post so I don't get why you're mentioning it now. Not to mention that a month is way too long, 2 weeks is more accurate. Anyway, Hattori would obviously know that forensic DNA tests would take at least a week (now that I think about it, it could be almost instant if they would compare it with Soyo's DNA) hence he did what he did.

The Shinsengumi are a martial force, not some scientists and Shogun being a person of utmost importance I am sure there would be a lab that would do these tests.

lol
Of course Shinsengumi aren't scientist but they are investigators/detectives and have a CSI unit (check out chapter 435 for example). Who else would be called for a crime scene if not them? And shogun's headless body would certainly not be sent to some random lab (e.g. a hospital lab) - criminal lab iis used in cases like these since certain procedures must be met so that nothing would be contaminated.

As for the reason Hattori retrieved Shogun´s head; well if he works for somebody else, then when asked whether he really killed Shogun he just brings up the head,

But you're claiming that technology in Gintama is so advanced (and you're right) so even if he would bring the head it would not be evident that it's real shogun's head. DNA results would be needed here also.

and if he does not work for anybody then he could preserve it until a right time for a funeral or something like that.

lol
If he would really murder him and wanted him to have a funeral he wouldn't take his head, would he?

 

[Jammin]

I don't know Goral. This is getting really dark really fast. Don't underestimate what Sorachi is willing to do when he goes dark. He's not a typical shounen author. And this arc has definitely gone into serious mode.

It's not impossible that it's all a ploy but the way it's presented makes it seem to me that the Shogun really is dead.

When Sorachi does drama he tends not to half ass it.

 

[Master OZ]

You do realize that the above only reinforces my hypothesis that it's all a ploy. I've mentioned about DNA tests taking time in my earlier post so I don't get why you're mentioning it now. Not to mention that a month is way too long, 2 weeks is more accurate. Anyway, Hattori would obviously know that forensic DNA tests would take at least a week (now that I think about it, it could be almost instant if they would compare it with Soyo's DNA) hence he did what he did.

It should have reinforced the point that Hattori fooling everyone and everything just by taking the head with him and leaving the body there is ridiculous. The only way I can see that to be a ploy is that Hattori has created a perfect DNA Shogun clone by some cloning process (no ninja techniques), because the first thing anybody would do is verify by any and all means that it indeed is Shogun´s corpse with methods that would withstand any scrutiny.

Check this. I will take this guy´s word over yours, if you have something to support your claim, then do so by all means.

If they could get the results in an instant as you say, then how could Hattori hope to try and outwit them??

lol
Of course Shinsengumi aren't scientist but they are investigators/detectives and have a CSI unit (check out chapter 435 for example). Who else would be called for a crime scene if not them? And shogun's headless body would certainly not be sent to some random lab (e.g. a hospital lab) - criminal lab iis used in cases like these since certain procedures must be met so that nothing would be contaminated.

They probably have some external scientists in their unit but the point I was trying to make is that in that Japan I bet there are other units than Shinsengumi in the employ of their government, so however occupied Shinsengumi is at the moment, they surely have standby units. (no Katsura pun intended)

But you're claiming that technology in Gintama is so advanced (and you're right) so even if he would bring the head it would not be evident that it's real shogun's head. DNA results would be needed here also.

Indeed they would. Hence the need for the head. How could they test the head if he didn´t bring it with him? Or how would they trust him only on his word (NOT REALLY)?

lol
If he would really murder him and wanted him to have a funeral he wouldn't take his head, would he?

His head would probably be used as Shoyo´s head on public display thus shaming him. He was shown to be a friend to Sho-chan thus in order to avoid his public shaming and probably burying him he takes the head with him. Also as inhumanly powerful as he is, I think escaping while carrying the whole body would be a daunting task even for him.

 

[THM Nindo]

Gintama is really at its best when it gets serious!

I'm 50-50 on the question of the Shogun's death.

I think I'd like it better if he really died, because that would make the overall plot advance so much more.
But, at the same time, I can't shake off the feeling that it's all of big ploy organized by Hattori.

Anyway, I can already tell that this arc will be one of the greatest of the whole Gintama manga!

 

[Nii]

It certainly has been a long time since Gintama turned this serious, this looks like it could be an arc which moves the plot forward by a huge chunk, finally. I wouldn't put it past Sorachi to give us a massive troll by Hattori, with the real one hiding somewhere else to fool everyone or something. I'm a bit divided on the matter, the Shogun really being dead would make this quite the massive event, but I wouldn't mind it if Sorachi pulls out some great plot twist of some sorts again.

Anyway, Kamui and Takasugi both being in the spotlight always is a great thing. This time I could really imagine a showdown like Gintoki vs. Takasugi/Kagura vs. Kamui, considering this seems like the final stage of the long planned Coup d'etat.

---------- Post added August 07, 2014 at 10:55 PM ---------- Previous post was August 03, 2014 at 11:25 PM ----------

Wow that fight between Okita and Kamui... When Gintama kicks ass it kicks incredibly awesome

 

[-Ken-]

This fight is really wicked. What I like about Gintama is that it shows that cool words and great action is all it needs for action scene to be awesome. It doesn't need flashy power/special /glance at the Sage

 

[Utsune]

If I want to laugh, I read Gintama. If I want to cry, I read Gintama. If I want epic fights, I read Gintama.
My gosh, I'm honestly glad I'm still alive today to see the stand off between Okita and Kamui. Does that mean they're pretty much equal or what?

 

[Master OZ]

Second page; A ninja doing a wall run and Sougou deftly clears them up.
Fifth page; Bansai still wearing the headphones. They are as stealthy as sleigh in the summer.
Eighth page; I think Takasugi refers to Shouyou-sensei here (the ringleader in hell). Shouyou is not directly responsible but his death spurred Takasugi into this, so I think that´s how Takasugi means it.

I love Gintama´s fightscenes the most. They are perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure bliss /end hyperbole. The visceral and straight to the point nature of them is very refreshing when you compare them to the drag-ons in other mangas. The faces they made throughout the fight!

I really wanted Kamui to really destroy Okita´s hand. It would be nice if Okita then got robotic replacement or something. Generally, the only thing that I don´t like about fights in Gintama is that they don´t leave any permanent scars or disabilities.

Kamui acting like nothing with a steel pipe in him really cracked me up. Coupled with that DBZ face he made before, I think Kamui is probably meant as a straight up Goku subversion - all he cares about is fighting, strength, the joyful anticipation before the battle and the excitement and rush he gets when fighting a strong opponent.

Now this would be a wishful thinking on my part but I want Zenzou to take on the Yatos to vent his pent up rage.

 

[Goral]

@Utsune
Speed-wise they seem equal (which I find a bit strange, a Yato being much stronger than a human should also be much faster) but Kamui has significantly more endurance. He got pierced by a huge pipe and that didn't seem to faze him even a bit. On the other hand Okita seems to be barely able to stand. Also, in kewl's translation Oktia himself says that one Yato is too much for him (suggesting that Kamui is stronger. Although in BDR's translation there's more room for interpretation. I would appreciate if you could tell us which one is more accurate.

@Master OZ
I agree that Okita losing a hand would be cool but to be honest Kamui is not an opponent he could oppose with one hand only so basically it would be equal to him dying. To me more bothering was that Yato just stopped their attack just because Zenzou spoke up. But that's a minor thing which didn't make me like this chapter any less (10/10 from me).

 

[Utsune]

Yes Goral, I agree (as well as the bit in your reply to Master OZ.) Kamui has the upper hand in power and endurance no doubt, although Okita is a lot cleverer and that compliments his fighting prowess. I have a feeling he's had that little trick of his planned from the moment he picked up the kunai, which is impressive foresight if that really were the case. Not sure how far his intelligence could make up for his physical disadvantage, but credit's where credit's due Kamui does come close to getting done in as pointed out by Abuto. That's why I'm a bit disappointed (absolutely not in a bad way) that the bit towards the end of the fight isn't shown

Finally, the Yato stoppting their attack is really just a bit of drama from Sorachi, and it builds to the cliff hanger. The story could have been such that Zenzou speaks up the moment Abuto finishes his chit-chat with Kamui, and thereby possibly preventing an attack/advance in the first place, but that isn't as fun as drawing a panel where Okita vs Yato x10 An obvious but totally unimportant point. I'm just saying for the sake of completion.

 

[Jammin]

I bet Kamui wasn't really fighting all that seriously. They did seem fairly equal but Okita was giving it his all while Kamui was being almost playful. I'm guessing when he gets really serious he's going to be like Kagura was when she went berserk that one time. Just an absolute monster.

Awesome fight though.

 

[Nii]

I'm curious, how many people actually believe that the Shogun is dead? I'm still not entirely convinced.

I bet Kamui wasn't really fighting all that seriously. They did seem fairly equal but Okita was giving it his all while Kamui was being almost playful. I'm guessing when he gets really serious he's going to be like Kagura was when she went berserk that one time. Just an absolute monster.

Awesome fight though.

Talk about how you make an epic fight without flashy powers, just pure will and tactics. Some people could learn from Sorachi.

I expect the only time Kamui will go all out is against Gin or Kagura. The monster siblings facing off against each other is almost a must.

 

[THM Nindo]

I'm curious, how many people actually believe that the Shogun is dead? I'm still not entirely convinced.

Talk about how you make an epic fight without flashy powers, just pure will and tactics. Some people could learn from Sorachi.

I expect the only time Kamui will go all out is against Gin or Kagura. The monster siblings facing off against each other is almost a must.

Yeah, that fight will definitely happen.
The two main villain (Takasugi and Kamui) are perfect opponents for the 2 main heroes (Gintoki and Kagura).

Now, we just need an opponent for Shinpachi!

 

[Jammin]

I'm curious, how many people actually believe that the Shogun is dead? I'm still not entirely convinced.

If I had to pick yes or no. I'd pick yes.

I feel like there is a 75% chance he's dead.

Talk about how you make an epic fight without flashy powers, just pure will and tactics. Some people could learn from Sorachi.

I expect the only time Kamui will go all out is against Gin or Kagura. The monster siblings facing off against each other is almost a must.

It's definitely one of the only fights were the feignt caught me as a reader off guard. I mean, pretending his arm had been cut off and using one from a nearby corpse to get an advantage. That's sneaky. Masterful slight of hand if you will (sorry I couldn't resist).

 

[Nii]

Yeah, that fight will definitely happen.
The two main villain (Takasugi and Kamui) are perfect opponents for the 2 main heroes (Gintoki and Kagura).

Now, we just need an opponent for Shinpachi!

Shinpachi will fight against evil glasses or something

On a serious note I think there are enough "minor" villains left, doubt he won't get his important fight too once stuff gets serious.

If I had to pick yes or no. I'd pick yes.

I feel like there is a 75% chance he's dead.

It's definitely one of the only fights were the feignt caught me as a reader off guard. I mean, pretending his arm had been cut off and using one from a nearby corpse to get an advantage. That's sneaky. Masterful slight of hand if you will (sorry I couldn't resist).

Yeah, I feel like it would be a bit cheap for him to be alive after all this drama. Then again I wouldn't put it past Sorachi to come up with a satisfying explanation why he's alive. For now I'm with you on those 75%

Indeed, that caught me totally off guard as well. For a second I actually went all "OMG Okita lost his arm?!" so that really surprised me too, splendid move.
That pun...

 

[Mohsen]

I'm curious, how many people actually believe that the Shogun is dead? I'm still not entirely convinced.



Talk about how you make an epic fight without flashy powers, just pure will and tactics. Some people could learn from Sorachi.

I expect the only time Kamui will go all out is against Gin or Kagura. The monster siblings facing off against each other is almost a must.

I believe that Kamui set his eyes on Gintoki. That is most likely why he is working with Takasugi cause Takasugi is also kinda looking for a battle with Gintoki. kamui is on the same level as Hozen who was the rival of kamui's father who is rumored to be the strongest of the Yato. I can't see kagura surving a fight against her brother cause kamui has way more abttle expierence than her.