Discussion Good v Evil: Morality in One Piece

[Pirate Queen]

In general they're evil because they know what they're doing is not good, but they don't care because they're selfish and know they can get away with anything. Plus, the way others react should give them some indication?

But then again, now that I think about it, who's told them about their behavior? I can't imagine anyone lower than Tenryuubito saying "hey guys, this isn't good!" out of fear of punishment. Dunno what happened to Doflamingo's dad, but didn't the other guy gain empathy after experiencing kindness or something in Fishman Island from Otohime? I forgot his name since he only appeared in the flashback and the mini-Reverie arc right before Wano.

He was Doflamingo's uncle I believe

 

[McNuss]

In general they're evil because they know what they're doing is not good, but they don't care because they're selfish and know they can get away with anything. Plus, the way others react should give them some indication?

But then again, now that I think about it, who's told them about their behavior? I can't imagine anyone lower than Tenryuubito saying "hey guys, this isn't good!" out of fear of punishment. Dunno what happened to Doflamingo's dad, but didn't the other guy gain empathy after experiencing kindness or something in Fishman Island from Otohime? I forgot his name since he only appeared in the flashback and the mini-Reverie arc right before Wano.

The name is Mjosgard. I think the Tenryubito actually witness objection when they descend to the surface, like that guy whose girlfriend got stolen. But they don't care, they just shot him, and if anyone actually dares they can call an admiral.

So as you said they don't really care.

That's for the normal Tenryubito, the Gorosei are (can be perceived as) also evil but for entirely different reasons.

I wonder whether we get anything on them soon. Like what's their relationship and which families they are from. I also wonder if their calm demeanor is a facade and they are actually just as rotten as the others.

 

[M3J]

He was Doflamingo's uncle I believe

Googled it after seeing McNuss's name, and thou art right.

So that makes it three Don Quixote that's ended up good so far, and I think Doflamingo was inherently evil or too far gone as the older brother and raised to dominate as opposed to Rocinante, who received love from Sengoku (?) or someone who adopted him. Now I'm curious to see if any other Tenryuubito are like that, or if the Don Quixote and the Nefertari families are just the outliers for whatever reason. Dunno if the Riku family counts - as far as I recall they weren't part of the original 20 kings, they ascended to the throne because Don Quixote left.

The name is Mjosgard. I think the Tenryubito actually witness objection when they descend to the surface, like that guy whose girlfriend got stolen. But they don't care, they just shot him, and if anyone actually dares they can call an admiral.

So as you said they don't really care.

That's for the normal Tenryubito, the Gorosei are (can be perceived as) also evil but for entirely different reasons.

I wonder whether we get anything on them soon. Like what's their relationship and which families they are from. I also wonder if their calm demeanor is a facade and they are actually just as rotten as the others.

Eh, I'll forget it soon enough anyway, but thanks. How much objection to they witness though? We've seen very few here and there, but mostly it's been everyone clearing out of the way or bearing the Tenryuubito's abuse in silence with an angry look. From what we've seen, the Tenryuubito were probably raised like this, and hence they might not know better to care.

Gorosei are still up in the air for me. They seem to want peace and avoid strife, but they're also willing to commit genocide to keep that peace, if it even is genuine peace. But then again, I don't remember that much more either, so they probably said or did something that indicates they are kinda evil or believe in Absolute Justice like Akainu (which is evil to me).

We likely will, especially since the Gorosei will have to be rid of for Luffy to change the course of the world. The Gorosei are the product of the 20 Kings overthrowing the Ancient Kingdom and becoming the rulers, right? THen they'd have to be done away with, assuming what the kings did were horrible and evil, hence the Void Century.

 

[Fox666]

This is Imu in the anime:

At least in the anime the hair in more clear. Also the eyes are red... For those who have pointed the similarity with Mihawk's eyes, they are also red in the manga for the matter.

 

[McNuss]

Googled it after seeing McNuss's name, and thou art right.

So that makes it three Don Quixote that's ended up good so far, and I think Doflamingo was inherently evil or too far gone as the older brother and raised to dominate as opposed to Rocinante, who received love from Sengoku (?) or someone who adopted him. Now I'm curious to see if any other Tenryuubito are like that, or if the Don Quixote and the Nefertari families are just the outliers for whatever reason. Dunno if the Riku family counts - as far as I recall they weren't part of the original 20 kings, they ascended to the throne because Don Quixote left.

We can add Homing's wife, who, unless they inbreed, must be from another family. It wasn't Sengoku though that teached Rocinante, rather it seems he was good natured before. His personality resembles Homing more than Sengoku, who mainly is a man of order. Sengoku is a good natured person that believes in the system and the law, and was willing to do questionable things such as organizing a Buster Call on peaceful archaeologists in order to keep the peace, but when that became too much (LV6 cover-up) he retired.

I think had Rosinante taken after Sengoku, he would have become a much more lawful marine and had likely teached Law order and not love. His teachings, imo bear Homings signature, which is a nice twist because while Homing couldn't save his own evil son due to naivety, he in the end safed the (at that time) evil Law through Rosinante, his other son, so not a bad legacy.

Eh, I'll forget it soon enough anyway, but thanks. How much objection to they witness though? We've seen very few here and there, but mostly it's been everyone clearing out of the way or bearing the Tenryuubito's abuse in silence with an angry look. From what we've seen, the Tenryuubito were probably raised like this, and hence they might not know better to care.

Since everyone is aware of the consequences of objecting a Tenryubito, I assume it rarely happens, but often enough that everyone knows.

Gorosei are still up in the air for me. They seem to want peace and avoid strife, but they're also willing to commit genocide to keep that peace, if it even is genuine peace. But then again, I don't remember that much more either, so they probably said or did something that indicates they are kinda evil or believe in Absolute Justice like Akainu (which is evil to me).

Yeah, they remind one of politicians, especially pre-WWII politicians but also many current ones.

We likely will, especially since the Gorosei will have to be rid of for Luffy to change the course of the world. The Gorosei are the product of the 20 Kings overthrowing the Ancient Kingdom and becoming the rulers, right? THen they'd have to be done away with, assuming what the kings did were horrible and evil, hence the Void Century.

They will have to be rid of for sure, though I also expect a major twist.

I wonder if the next Vivre cards will introduces their names. New ones haven't been announced yet, but there are many open numbers, so there will be some for sure. Next pack would be Levely, and I don't think Tacos, Ham Burger and co are big enough of a character to justify a card, and obviously Imu won't be included cause mystery. Which leaves just Stelly and the Revo Commanders, which is not much...

 

[M3J]

e. His personality resembles Homing more than Sengoku, who mainly is a man of order. Sengoku is a good natured person that believes in the system and the law, and was willing to do questionable things such as organizing a Buster Call on peaceful archaeologists in order to keep the peace, but when that became too much (LV6 cover-up) he retired.

I think had Rosinante taken after Sengoku, he would have become a much more lawful marine and had likely teached Law order and not love. His teachings, imo bear Homings signature, which is a nice twist because while Homing couldn't save his own evil son due to naivety, he in the end safed the (at that time) evil Law through Rosinante, his other son, so not a bad legacy.

I don't remember HOming's wife much, but you're probably right. But yeah, I meant that while Rocinante was a good person from childhood, being raised by SEngoku kept him on that path. Doflamingo was evil, but what would have happened if he was raised to be a good person instead? Yanno what I mean?

I wonder what Sengoku knows about the Void Century that he was willing to destroy Ohara.

But what if Sengoku raised Rocinante to be about love before order?

Since everyone is aware of the consequences of objecting a Tenryubito, I assume it rarely happens, but often enough that everyone knows.

perhaps they were told the consequences of even getting a suspicious look from the Tenyruubito, backed up by their own slaves. Plus, some rulers like Sabo's adopted brother seem to be abusive as well.

Yeah, they remind one of politicians, especially pre-WWII politicians but also many current ones.

Atomic bombings of Japan.

 

[Fox666]

I don't remember HOming's wife much, but you're probably right. But yeah, I meant that while Rocinante was a good person from childhood, being raised by SEngoku kept him on that path. Doflamingo was evil, but what would have happened if he was raised to be a good person instead? Yanno what I mean?

There is that scene of Doflamingoas a child promising to tell every last one of the citizens that attacked him. That scene was intended to show there was something wrong with Doflamingo from the beginning.

 

[McNuss]

I wonder what Sengoku knows about the Void Century that he was willing to destroy Ohara.

I don't think he knows that much. He probably knows more than the average person, but not nearly enough to come to any conclusions. I think the risk involved would be simply too high. The Marines are the largest Military force in the world, and the World Government's main executive force. So if they revolt against the WG, it would be its end.

Assuming the lost History reveals something terrible about the WG, I think it would be foolish to reveal it to outsiders that aren't Tenryubito, actually I think it would be even foolish to reveal it to anyone.

In order to keep a secret for 800 years, I think only the Gorosei themselves and Imu know the truth. Think about it, Sengoku might be (had been) a "man of the system", but Akainu seems to be driven by ideology and not the political order. He already showed his displeasement over the Dressrosa incident, revealing true history to him could cause him to stage a coup-d'etat, replacing the WG with a military dictatorship so that he could make the rules himself (but not due to a desire to rule but due to deeming it a neccesity as the previous government was corrupt and evil).

Anyways Akainu would be the next one we should discuss abou considering he is definitely evil through our point of view but all of his actions are actually centered around stopping "evil" people so he is another twisted case.

By the way I think someone like Akainu would have a good chance of a succesful political career even in certain democratic countries. We hate him for the Ohara incident and Ace, but in in real life there are a lot of (silly) people drawn to personalities like his.

Atomic bombings of Japan.

Yeah, that's a good example.

I think design wise Oda was also referring to that era, like from 1870 to 1945, that's why he added a mustache to Michail Gorbatschow, to make him look like someone from the late 19th century.

 

[Hrathgrath]

It's pretty awesome that my ramblings gave birth to their own thread :-) Anyway, for an act to be considered evil to me (And yes "right" and "wrong" are cultural structures) you have to ask the two questions: 'Did they intend to do what was done (the act in question)?' and 'Do they understand the repercussions of said act(s) with regards to other people?' If the answer to both of these questions is 'Yes' then you can call the act evil (imo of course). I'm sure you could expand that to include motivations for the act 'It is self serving or does it serve others as the motivation of said act?' But at that point you start to convolute it into more of a moral grey area. (some people you talk to say the whole world and every action in it is grey if you look hard enough, but I digress...)

 

[M3J]

There is that scene of Doflamingoas a child promising to tell every last one of the citizens that attacked him. That scene was intended to show there was something wrong with Doflamingo from the beginning.

Probably was, but the gist I got was that he was an arrogant person with anger issues, either that could have been grown out of.

I don't think he knows that much. He probably knows more than the average person, but not nearly enough to come to any conclusions. I think the risk involved would be simply too high. The Marines are the largest Military force in the world, and the World Government's main executive force. So if they revolt against the WG, it would be its end.

Pretty sure those higher up, at least in Garp and Sengoku's positions, know something about the Void Century. I'm not sure if Akainu does, but he was willing to commit genocide because he thought that any knowledge of the Void Century was dangerous (although he could have been brainwashed into believing that). However, I don't see anyone below vice admiral, at best, knowing anything about the Void CEntury other than knowing that any knowledge about it is dangerous for the person and for peace.

Sengoku might know more than he lets on, but he likely stays quiet because he wants peace more than anything. The Gorosei however likely know what happened and don't want to lose power.

Assuming the lost History reveals something terrible about the WG, I think it would be foolish to reveal it to outsiders that aren't Tenryubito, actually I think it would be even foolish to reveal it to anyone.

In order to keep a secret for 800 years, I think only the Gorosei themselves and Imu know the truth. Think about it, Sengoku might be (had been) a "man of the system", but Akainu seems to be driven by ideology and not the political order. He already showed his displeasement over the Dressrosa incident, revealing true history to him could cause him to stage a coup-d'etat, replacing the WG with a military dictatorship so that he could make the rules himself (but not due to a desire to rule but due to deeming it a neccesity as the previous government was corrupt and evil).

Anyways Akainu would be the next one we should discuss abou considering he is definitely evil through our point of view but all of his actions are actually centered around stopping "evil" people so he is another twisted case.

By the way I think someone like Akainu would have a good chance of a succesful political career even in certain democratic countries. We hate him for the Ohara incident and Ace, but in in real life there are a lot of (silly) people drawn to personalities like his.

Yeah, that's a good example.

I think design wise Oda was also referring to that era, like from 1870 to 1945, that's why he added a mustache to Michail Gorbatschow, to make him look like someone from the late 19th century.

At this point, I'm 99% sure it does. So many clues lead to that conclusion, and the higher ups fear loss of faith and possible rebellion. That's likely why they wouldn't reveal anything to anyone, whereas the Tenryuubito likely don't care about any atrocity given it's given them a special status.

Akainu seems to know the government is corrupt and evil enough, but he probably wouldn't risk doing anything like that as he believes in justice and likely peace. Trying to overthrow the government (who'd join him? It'd be a gamble) would be the opposite of peace, at least for a while.

I don't really see him as evil, just an extremist with misguided views. We'll probably get a flashback where he suffered hardship due to pirates/outlaws, which started his hatred for rulebreakers and belief in absolute justice at all cost. Or he could be brainwashed or conditioned to believe in Absolute Justice. I mean, if Akainu was evil, then would he have spared Aokiji? Wouldn't he have punished Fujitoria pretty harshly for letting Luffy get away when he could have gotten Luffy easily? Akainu doesn't have firsthand experience of what the Straw Hats have done (and we've repetitively seen how they're extremely unique in that despite being pirates, they're willing to help others), just that they're pirates who have broken into Enies Lobby to save a dangerous criminal,
beat Shichibukai whose purpose is to help against any powerful enemies and are representative of the World Government, infiltrated Impel Down, gatecrashed the Paramount War and freed the pirate son of the most notorious pirate in recent times, and is the son of the biggest criminal who's been attacking the World Government and Marines without provocation.

That is true, people love genocidal leaders who seem to be against bad people. Although, I don't think Akainu would do too well politically as he seems to lack tact/peope skills, Garp would likely fare better because of his personality even though he comes across as incompetent at times.

 

[TitaniumOxide]

Very nice thread. I'll try to keep it short...Anyone ever heard of Terry Goodkind? Ayn Rand? If not, go ahead and google them and for the love your deity, read Wizard's First Rule and Atlas Shrugged.

Good/Evil in One Piece reflects the subject of objectivism. I am evil because you are good and say I am. But you are the evil one because you do not share my grand ideas so therefore I am good. Pretty much that's it. In other words, you get to decide. Are pirates evil because they want to plunder for themselves or are they just selfish and greedy; but if society did not cast them out would they be like that... so are the people who cast them out the real evil? Let's use a real world example. GUN DEBATES! hahahaha omg this one will literally get us nowhere once we start arguing about guns in Murica (For the record, guns are great, people aren't).

So gun debates. One side says if we all had one, less people will want to shoot people. But on the other hand, if we had none, we cannot shoot anyone. At the end of the day here, who are the victims? The guns because two different groups are deciding it's fate. one wants to get rid of it for the sake of humanity. The other wants to keep it for the sake of humanity. Who is evil? Who is good? I hope I am niether. What, because I like to fire off a few rounds at a target while being high af makes me evil? Nope. It is fun. However I find it fun to also read one piece and definitely do not need guns in my life because my little cousin might be able to somehow guess my code and take it out and kill my neighbor's dog. lol... There is always more than one side to all stories. What I am getting at is no one is inherently evil. People do shit because they enjoy it. Anyone read Battle Royale? Kuriyama isn't evil, he is just good at getting his required task done and in his case, to kill everyone and be the last one standing. Doflamingo isn't evil, he likes to be rich and powerful because he was trampled on and missed out on his rich childhood. Sure some people want to do some pretty heinous stuff but it is US who put that label on them. Doing wrong isn't evil. I speed all the time and I try not to but shit sometimes I don't see a kid there and I am gonna fucking smoke my joint if I do not see any kids. A mother might point out how sick and evil that is giving her kids 2nd hand smoke but fuck her. She don't know me so fuck her because like I said, I try. It doesn't make me a evil or even a bad person but that is in my own personal perspective and I know others can disagree. As a society here or in One Piece, we are conditioned by society to not hurt others. To be courteous. To hold the door open when someone walks out after you at Starbucks. All this crap. They drill it into us so naturally we see some bad things as evil. We see some good things as good. I mean do you think the pope washing someone's feet makes him "good"? Holy shit I see nurses doing that every day. Or even better yet, My gf anal gland dogs every day to keep their ass healthy but do anyone say that is "Good"? No it is just part of her job. It is part of Katakuri's job to protect big mom from harm so he kills people with jellybeans. Ahh now I am just ranting again saying the shame shit.

TL DR: Objectivism shows us that we label people good/evil. Innately they aren't. We are the ones who say they are because we disagree on a certain level.

PS: A lot of gun haters have never shot a gun in their life. I sometimes wonder if car haters want to ban cars due to all the fatalities on the roads every minute of the day. See wut I did thar?