Discussion Gun control

[REN KOUEN]

no point in discussing this subject if people are going to result to insults

sorry i wasted your time with my crazy opinions and paranoia

 

[danzouismadara]

drugs are illegal and people still get access to it... so what makes people think that people still won't get guns through the black market if guns are illegal. In addition, the bad guys will be the ones who will go through the black market to get the guns, while good guys won't have a way to protect themselves. Half of America has guns, but only the few who are mentally unstable do the shooting, therefore that means that mental health should be addressed, regardless if the person is over 18 and considered an adult. Anyways, pew pew pew Merica! sorry I had to do it. lol

 

[kkck]

Well, if I recall there are plenty of people behind actual shootouts who had no history of violence or even mental instability. The cases are ultimately too few (but very notorious) for a proper profile to be made on the people involved. Focusing on mental heath would do nothing if we have no idea of what you are looking for. Its a shame there aren't reliable statistics to support either side of the argument.... It would be very interesting to have reliable statistics of how many people go batman on bad guys every year.

 

[M3J]

With the state that US is in now, I think it's pretty stupid for anyone to suggest banning guns. NOt only will good citizens be stripped of guns, but bad people will still have guns, all it does is unbalance the equation even more towards the illegal's favor. Gangs and bad people can still buy guns illegally or through the black market, which would make the sellers more money. It's much like the Prohibition, except the people who only use guns for self defense will be at a huge disadvantage because they won't be able to protect themselves.

I think there needs to be a much stricter control instead. Fine sellers who don't follow procedures closely and even toss 'em in jail, make it harder to get guns, etc. Otherwise banning guns will just make things worse.

 

[Pat]

With the state that US is in now, I think it's pretty stupid for anyone to suggest banning guns. NOt only will good citizens be stripped of guns, but bad people will still have guns, all it does is unbalance the equation even more towards the illegal's favor. Gangs and bad people can still buy guns illegally or through the black market, which would make the sellers more money. It's much like the Prohibition, except the people who only use guns for self defense will be at a huge disadvantage because they won't be able to protect themselves.

I think there needs to be a much stricter control instead. Fine sellers who don't follow procedures closely and even toss 'em in jail, make it harder to get guns, etc. Otherwise banning guns will just make things worse.

I think it's very rare that someone uses a gun for self defense against an armed criminal who actually tries to hurt him, on the contrary I believe having a gun gives a sense of security which encourages people to take action against other people in situations where they can otherwise avoid by simply staying away as can be seen in Zimmerman case. While stricter controls are certainly necessary, it still doesn't stop the relatives or friends of a gun owner from taking the possession of the gun and using for illegal purposes unless it's locked up. But if the gun is somewhere safe, it may not be practical to go get it to defend yourself when you realize you're in danger in situations such as there's a burglar in your house. Also engaging in a gun fight increases the likelihood of you getting yourself killed. Burglars, at least here, run away when people notice them but if you start shooting at them, they may retaliate which, in most cases, makes the situation worse. I guess most of the crimes happen outside people's houses when they generally don't have their guns on them which is another problem which defeats the purpose of having a gun.

There're also many cases where a completely normal person suffers a nervous breakdown and goes on a killing spree. It would be much better if such a person didn't have access to a gun and obtaining a gun illegally, considering the relative difficulty, would not be viable for a person in that state of mind. If guns were illegal, I guess common people, at least most, wouldn't dare to buy one, risking harsh punishment when caught. I don't see gangs as a problem because you can never outgun a gang and it's not people's job to fight them. I would feel safer if both me and my neighbor didn't have guns than both of us possessing them, what if he shows up at my doorstep with a gun, angry at something trivial. Either shoot him or get shot, nah, I don't like either possibility.

IMHO pepper sprays and tasers are better tools for self defense which provide adequate protection without fatal results. Recently a man got killed here, his neighbor killed him. The neighbor who killed him had complained about their noisy son to the guy's wife earlier and the wife did summon her husband, claiming that neighbor had insulted her. I believe such an issue could be resolved without resulting in a death, with a broken nose at most but I guess "if you have a gun, why not use it" is the inevitable conclusion of widespread possession of guns and IMHO it makes the boundaries of self defense blurred. Can we trust the better judgment of all gun owners and what good is a dead man and another in prison?

 

[kkck]

I would agree with guns encouraging people to take action being a problem. I mean, why take a risk to begin with? I don't think there is anything smart about turning a burglary into a shotout at least and I certainly do not want people around me playing batman. Sure, you get the cool story and maybe all the chicks if you pull it off but if you don't then you are just some guy who made a burglary into a shootout and died stupidly. I mean, you have the following scenarios when being robbed:

1.- You can get robbed and... well, just that, you got robbed. You were screwed but you are both alive.

2.- You are getting robbed and fight back. You could do it with a weapon or without. That has 2 scenarios:

1.-The guy retreats. And you get the story and the chicks presumably.​

2.- The guy does not retreat.​

Now, you might or might not have a weapon but the same thing goes for the other guy. I would think a burglar not having at least a knife is rare though. Now, if you don't have a weapon and defend yourself then you are basically exposed to whatever weapon he might or might not have. Presumably this is a bad scenario as someone who is into the whole robbing people thing is bound to have been in more fights than you.

Now, if you do have a weapon.... then in any scenario you are turning a burglary into a weapons fight. Now, I don't think knife defense is an issue here so lets just go to the whole having a gun thing. You pull you gun and the scenarios are the following:

1.- He retreats because he is unarmed
2.- He jumps to defend himself with his own weapon or gun.

Once you get to option two you are no longer in a burglary, you are in a freaking gunfight (or more improbably a knifefight). That puts bystanders at risks, it puts you at risks and it puts the burglar at risk (realistically speaking he is still an actual person even if it kinda sucks saying it). Worst case scenario you both die or get hurt. Because gunfight.

Now, it is entirely possible that you actually take the first option, do not fight and get rob and still get killed. However in most cases that would still be at large an accident and the odds of everyone walking out of the ordeal alive are still better than if someone plays batman.

 

[M3J]

There're also many cases where a completely normal person suffers a nervous breakdown and goes on a killing spree. It would be much better if such a person didn't have access to a gun and obtaining a gun illegally, considering the relative difficulty, would not be viable for a person in that state of mind. If guns were illegal, I guess common people, at least most, wouldn't dare to buy one, risking harsh punishment when caught. I don't see gangs as a problem because you can never outgun a gang and it's not people's job to fight them. I would feel safer if both me and my neighbor didn't have guns than both of us possessing them, what if he shows up at my doorstep with a gun, angry at something trivial. Either shoot him or get shot, nah, I don't like either possibility.

Yes, but with stricter laws, it'd be much harder for the person to get a gun, but he could resort to getting one illegally. Why wouldn't it be viable? I doubt the seller really gives a shit as long as he's not in danger or won't get caught.

There have been stories how owning a gun helped the victims against the bad people. If you ban guns, you're not only banning good citizens from owning a gun that could save lives, but you're giving bad guys more opportunity to commit heinous crimes. Bad guys are not scared of getting guns illegally, and the more of them that have it, the less ways citizens can fight back.

I personally prefer all guns be banned, but that's impossible in America.

 

[Brandish μ]

Thought this thread was suitable. The video was well made imo, to get their point across.

As for gun control, I think they should be banned. Honestly, I think comedian Jim Jefferies summed it up well...

 

[Onyx Darkmatter]

This is probably one of the two most difficult topics that I find that both arguments are fairly reasonable (the other being Abortion).

I don't know a potential solution for this epidemic (except for one scenario where it's very unlikely to happen, and that's for future Generations to not buy a gun), and I don't know where exactly I stand on this topic.
On the Gun-Control advocates, I can see that Guns are an issue; they are made for killing and no other reasons (at least with things like Kitchen Knifes, it's not made for killing), which would mean something has to happen in order to at least reduce these insane numbers.
On the Pro-Gun Advocates, I can definitely agree that control hasn't been as effective as it should have been. On top of that, loopholes exists, especially gun shows existing.

I can only hope someone can find the solution to this mess, but I know that's never going to happen as long as the NRA exists.

 

[M3J]

I'm all for stricter gun control, whatever makes it harder to legally get a gun.

 

[Raven]

Guns shouldn't be allowed to citizens. Yes i agree Guns are important to protect yourself from a robbery or an assault but there are some people who are bullying others with them.

 

[Spirit]

You should just follow our example. One Shooting Massacre incident in the 80's or so and BOOM! All Automatic weapons and sidearms have been banned ever since. But nooooo, in the US the Firearms Group thing (NFA?) Have way too much power therefore there's never going to be any changes despite the sheer amount of bloodshed that soaks U.S Soil

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 16, 2016, Original Post Date: Dec 16, 2016 ---

As for gun control, I think they should be banned. Honestly, I think comedian Jim Jefferies summed it up well...

Now that sir is possibly the best way to deal with this. Just ask for any non-American's opinion and they'll tell you it's all a shit show.

 

[Onyx Darkmatter]

You should just follow our example. One Shooting Massacre incident in the 80's or so and BOOM! All Automatic weapons and sidearms have been banned ever since. But nooooo, in the US the Firearms Group thing (NFA?) Have way too much power therefore there's never going to be any changes despite the sheer amount of bloodshed that soaks U.S Soil

Honestly, if the death of 20 children couldn't convince people that Gun Violence is an issue to be addressed, then I don't know what hope we have about this. But I suppose the NRA's enormous donations to lawmakers only makes the government corrupted as they can get, while people like Jeb Bush implies that "Shit happens" when it comes to gun violence (yeah, because "shit happens" is a good answer as to why we have 20 dead children).

 

[M3J]

You should just follow our example. One Shooting Massacre incident in the 80's or so and BOOM! All Automatic weapons and sidearms have been banned ever since. But nooooo, in the US the Firearms Group thing (NFA?) Have way too much power therefore there's never going to be any changes despite the sheer amount of bloodshed that soaks U.S Soil

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 16, 2016, Original Post Date: Dec 16, 2016 ---

Now that sir is possibly the best way to deal with this. Just ask for any non-American's opinion and they'll tell you it's all a shit show.

Problem with that is, gun-obsessed people will counter with "if a mass shooting happens again you/we won't be prepared to fight back!" They'll probably link to a mass shooting that happened after the ban somewhere.

And they'll tell non-Americans to fuck off with their opinions. Take my word for it, it's the best word, you'll love it.

 

[xi0]

I mean, I like Jim Jeffries and the other video is well-intentioned, but the Second Amendment does not exist so that people can keep bazookas in their bedroom closet. It's the "right to bear arms" to protect the population from the tyranny of the government. The issue is the gun lobby is hugely influential and federal law protects private citizens owning them, regardless of what state governments do.

If we're honest with ourselves, we can see that there is a ton of bullshit on both sides of this argument. I'm for stricter laws and regulation on who can own guns, but the reality is, handguns are still responsible for at least 80% of all gun-related homicides. So what issue does banning specific types of guns actually address? None really, yet assault weapon bans are talked about all of the time by people.

And the other issue for me is that "solutions" like Project Exile, which did what it was intended to do, are typically rejected by Libertarians (what type of gun control would they be for anyways? lol) and people on the political left due to how severe a sentence a convicted felon would receive for carrying a gun or even just owning a gun illegally, because they believe that it would disproportionately effect minority populations.

So really, what's the solution? Banning all guns? Changing the constitution? Leaving things the way they are? No one can agree on anything.

 

[Spirit]

I mean, I like Jim Jeffries and the other video is well-intentioned, but the Second Amendment does not exist so that people can keep bazookas in their bedroom closet. It's the "right to bear arms" to protect the population from the tyranny of the government. The issue is the gun lobby is hugely influential and federal law protects private citizens owning them, regardless of what state governments do.

If we're honest with ourselves, we can see that there is a ton of bullshit on both sides of this argument. I'm for stricter laws and regulation on who can own guns, but the reality is, handguns are still responsible for at least 80% of all gun-related homicides. So what issue does banning specific types of guns actually address? None really, yet assault weapon bans are talked about all of the time by people.

And the other issue for me is that "solutions" like Project Exile, which did what it was intended to do, are typically rejected by Libertarians (what type of gun control would they be for anyways? lol) and people on the political left due to how severe a sentence a convicted felon would receive for carrying a gun or even just owning a gun illegally, because they believe that it would disproportionately effect minority populations.

So really, what's the solution? Banning all guns? Changing the constitution? Leaving things the way they are? No one can agree on anything.

Is that intentional though? Because it seems as if it's a conditioned situation where no one can do a thing

 

[xi0]

Is that intentional though? Because it seems as if it's a conditioned situation where no one can do a thing

What's intentional? You have special interests at work here, but it's still undeniable that the right to own a firearm is fundamental in the US. So trying to change that is going to be an issue. It's different in Australia because the basis for your government didn't protect an Australian's right to own a firearm (correct me if I'm wrong there).

If you want to make laws stricter you either piss off the right or left depending on how you approach it. So national reform of any sort rarely seems doable either.

 

[Spirit]

What's intentional? You have special interests at work here, but it's still undeniable that the right to own a firearm is fundamental in the US. So trying to change that is going to be an issue. It's different in Australia because the basis for your government didn't protect an Australian's right to own a firearm.

If you want to make laws stricter you either piss off the right or left depending on how you approach it. So national reform of any sort rarely seems doable either.

I'm not trying to match up Australia and the US anymore. I know that's pointless. It's the fact that even while people want this to change, the very foundations of your country are contradictory to what expressly needs to happen

 

[xi0]

It's the fact that even while people want this to change, the very foundations of your country are contradictory to what expressly needs to happen

Banning them all? This is the crux of the debate really. You think that what needs to happen is people's rights should be taken away. Does that need to happen? Can it even be done, given the circumstances? I don't see why anyone would be optimistic about either of those questions. This country also has a terrible history with prohibition as well. What do we do when there are supposedly 100+ legally owned firearms for every person in this country (not to mention the illegal ones) and make it crime for people to keep them? Uhhhh...not going to end well.

 

[Spirit]

Banning them all? This is the crux of the debate really. You think that what needs to happen is people's rights should be taken away. Does that need to happen? Can it even be done, given the circumstances? I don't see why anyone would be optimistic about either of those questions. This country also has a terrible history with prohibition as well. What do we do when there are supposedly 100+ legally owned firearms for every person in this country (not to mention the illegal ones) and make it crime for people to keep them? Uhhhh...not going to end well.

So what would happen if we take a different approach? Focus more on the psychological side of why Guns are an issue.