Hell Joe vs White

[V_TheHiddenAxis]

Who wins? Who is stronger?

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

Well we can use UM to compare.

In FoD, UM used 1% of his power against Karaka which almost swept away White. He survived thanks to the barrier UM erected. He even admits had he taken that attack, he would have been a goner.

As for HJ, UM used 10 % of his power. Even Excluding Zero Area and his other ability, to make UM use 10 percent of his power is commendable in itself. Also, I don't think Prime White can make him use that much power.

 

[V_TheHiddenAxis]

Well we can use UM to compare.

In FoD, UM used 1% of his power against Karaka which almost swept away White. He survived thanks to the barrier UM erected. He even admits had he taken that attack, he would have been a goner.

As for HJ, UM used 10 % of his power. Even Excluding Zero Area and his other ability, to make UM use 10 percent of his power is commendable in itself. Also, I don't think Prime White can make him use that much power.

What about someone like dumas?

 

[Demonspeed]

White wins for sure.

 

[OneEye]

Well we can use UM to compare.

In FoD, UM used 1% of his power against Karaka which almost swept away White. He survived thanks to the barrier UM erected. He even admits had he taken that attack, he would have been a goner.

As for HJ, UM used 10 % of his power. Even Excluding Zero Area and his other ability, to make UM use 10 percent of his power is commendable in itself. Also, I don't think Prime White can make him use that much power.

Prime White is almost a bottomless pit that constantly powers up. With the right amount of prior soul absorptions, he'll dominate HJ Then try to absorb his admin powers; White even already absorbed HJ's soul back in the FoD but was stopped by Gustang's spell. White's was a living disaster

 

[kkck]

Hmm, to me it's not obvious how any towerborn would handle hell joe's ability to take away folk's shinsoo control. I could buy some folk having so much base physical strength they could take on hell joe with their bare fists but even then most towerborn would have trouble regardless of how potent their shinsoo is.

 

[Demonspeed]

Hell Joe is quite overrated IMO. Even with the ability to control Shinsoo like an Admin his offensive power is lacking. He would definitely lose to someone of White's caliber. Been a while since I read these chapters, but I don't remember his attacks being particularly threatening to Yuri and I think he hit her more than once? Urek also said that there are many people stronger than him and I think he said that Yuri might have been able to survive to one of his final attacks.

If Yuri's stats are enough to not get insta killed by him then I believe he isn't that big of a deal against HR several tiers above her. Unless he is against someone very dependent on Shinsoo Manipulation so it becomes very MU dependant.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

Prime White is almost a bottomless pit that constantly powers up. With the right amount of prior soul absorptions, he'll dominate HJ Then try to absorb his admin powers; White even already absorbed HJ's soul back in the FoD but was stopped by Gustang's spell. White's was a living disaster

There must be some limit to how much white can absorb. I don't believe he is like bam. If White can't use shinsu, how can he dominate HJ? HJ alone is worth a fart but with RT, it's different.

 

[Demonspeed]

There must be some limit to how much white can absorb. I don't believe he is like bam. If White can't use shinsu, how can he dominate HJ? HJ alone is worth a fart but with RT, it's different.

Physical abilities. Just like Urek did.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

Physical abilities. Just like Urek did.

U r right. But at the end of the fight, UM used divine water to finish RT. Also can White breathe, if divine water is sucked away?

 

[kkck]

Hell Joe is quite overrated IMO. Even with the ability to control Shinsoo like an Admin his offensive power is lacking. He would definitely lose to someone of White's caliber. Been a while since I read these chapters, but I don't remember his attacks being particularly threatening to Yuri and I think he hit her more than once? Urek also said that there are many people stronger than him and I think he said that Yuri might have been able to survive to one of his final attacks.

If Yuri's stats are enough to not get insta killed by him then I believe he isn't that big of a deal against HR several tiers above her. Unless he is against someone very dependent on Shinsoo Manipulation so it becomes very MU dependant.

Hell joe took away yuri's shinsoo and was seen literally falling of the sky over it. IIRC someone grabbed her to stop her from falling. Obviously a fall is unlikely to kill or even wound yuri. In white's case I suppose the question is whether he can beat hell joe with his bare hands. We saw hell joe giving yuri a single scratch with his claws.... Yuri was surprised she took damage and hell joe was surprised at yuri's physical prowess.

Yuri is at least capable of easily defeating above average high rankers (which I think is the framing for folk like cheonhee and those of her position). I am not sold on the idea that there actually are that many people who can easily deal with hell joe cancelling shinsoo control. And where we all appear to be at is that it takes someone who can beat him with his bare hands without shinsoo... I don't think people with that level of strength are that common even among the top 300. It's probably top members of the 10 families for the most part along with randos who aren't from any with those specks.

 

[Demonspeed]

U r right. But at the end of the fight, UM used divine water to finish RT. Also can White breathe, if divine water is sucked away?

He wanted to be able to create a Baang to protect the others without issues. He didn't need Shinsoo to beat the RT. He tanked and deflected his attacks without issues and he was at 10%.

The Regulars were being affected by the RT gathering Shinsoo but it's not like they couldn't do anything. Androssi was even able to use Bong Bong, but with more difficulty. Urek wasn't affected at all.

Hell joe took away yuri's shinsoo and was seen literally falling of the sky over it. IIRC someone grabbed her to stop her from falling. Obviously a fall is unlikely to kill or even wound yuri. In white's case I suppose the question is whether he can beat hell joe with his bare hands. We saw hell joe giving yuri a single scratch with his claws.... Yuri was surprised she took damage and hell joe was surprised at yuri's physical prowess.

Yuri is at least capable of easily defeating above average high rankers (which I think is the framing for folk like cheonhee and those of her position). I am not sold on the idea that there actually are that many people who can easily deal with hell joe cancelling shinsoo control. And where we all appear to be at is that it takes someone who can beat him with his bare hands without shinsoo... I don't think people with that level of strength are that common even among the top 300. It's probably top members of the 10 families for the most part along with randos who aren't from any with those specks.

Hell Joe was surprised by Yuri's physical abilities and was also afraid by the power of ignited Black March and Green April which are both B rank. As a Ha + Zahard Princess Yuri has excellent physical abilities, but any Fisherman worth his salt has great physical abilities and he is the stronger fighter. I don't see how he wouldn't be able to defeat Hell Joe with physical abilities alone.

In Chapter 254, Urek also says that he and Yuri are strong enough to tank the Red Thryssa's final explosion. If this explosion isn't enough to kill Yuri then surely he isn't that strong compared to many HRs.

Spoiler

 

[kkck]

Hell Joe was surprised by Yuri's physical abilities and was also afraid by the power of ignited Black March and Green April which are both B rank. As a Ha + Zahard Princess Yuri has excellent physical abilities, but any Fisherman worth his salt has great physical abilities and he is the stronger fighter. I don't see how he wouldn't be able to defeat Hell Joe with physical abilities alone.

In Chapter 254, Urek also says that he and Yuri are strong enough to tank the Red Thryssa's final explosion. If this explosion isn't enough to kill Yuri then surely he isn't that strong compared to many HRs.

Spoiler

Yuri's base physical strength is probably higher than a lot of rankers higher up in the ranks than her. Which becomes a real problem if their shinsoo control is restricted by hell joe. And urek is obviously a monster. There's no doubt that there are people with significant physical abilities out there of course but it's just not going to be every rankers in the top 300.

 

[Demonspeed]

Yuri's base physical strength is probably higher than a lot of rankers higher up in the ranks than her. Which becomes a real problem if their shinsoo control is restricted by hell joe. And urek is obviously a monster. There's no doubt that there are people with significant physical abilities out there of course but it's just not going to be every rankers in the top 300.

Sure, but how many High Rankers stronger than her would lose? Kallavan? Yasratcha? Yama? Dumas? No way.

 

[kkck]

Sure, but how many High Rankers stronger than her would lose? Kallavan? Yasratcha? Yama? Dumas? No way.

Without shinsoo? I could see yaratcha not having the base physical strength for that. Can yaratcha and yama even use their transformations without shinsoo? Does dumas' armor work without shinsoo?

 

[Turtle hunter]

White lose easily.

Shinsoo is everything even for physical tank like Kallavan, they would be the bottom of HR with shinsoo.

 

[Demonspeed]

White lose easily.

Shinsoo is everything even for physical tank like Kallavan, they would be the bottom of HR with shinsoo.

Negating Shinsoo in an area doesn't reduce anyone's physical abilities. Shinsoo is used for amplification.

Without shinsoo? I could see yaratcha not having the base physical strength for that. Can yaratcha and yama even use their transformations without shinsoo? Does dumas' armor work without shinsoo?

He is a Beastkin and CC tier HR. His physical abilities can't possibly be lacking. I think they should be able to transform, but I am not sure about ignitions.

 

[kkck]

Negating Shinsoo in an area doesn't reduce anyone's physical abilities. Shinsoo is used for amplification.



He is a Beastkin and CC tier HR. His physical abilities can't possibly be lacking. I think they should be able to transform, but I am not sure about ignitions.

Add to that, we saw kallavan tank non prime white's attacks without reinforcement.

Sure but there's a lot of wiggle room there. hell joe is at least high ranker level to begin with and will be able to use shinsoo in this scenario. It's not necessarily the case that people in this tier have the base physical strength to match yuri just because they are in the tier. I doubt ignitions work since that's pretty strictly a shinsoo thing.

 

[Turtle hunter]

Negating Shinsoo in an area doesn't reduce anyone's physical abilities. Shinsoo is used for amplification.



He is a Beastkin and CC tier HR. His physical abilities can't possibly be lacking. I think they should be able to transform, but I am not sure about ignitions.

And without amplification you physical prowess become far weaker.

There is a reason why Urek chick who had a 13 month didn't try to fight hell Joe.

Shinsoo is everything and without you lose like 90 percent of you power.

As a top 100 white would fall back to barely being at HR level.

As for Kallavan, he is Kallavan, White body is strong but a lot weaker than Kallavan who is specialized as a tank.

 

[OneEye]

There must be some limit to how much white can absorb. I don't believe he is like bam. If White can't use shinsu, how can he dominate HJ? HJ alone is worth a fart but with RT, it's different.

Thinking it over again, shinsoo attacks works in at least two main manners:
1- attacks that require surrounding shinsoo (from the environment)
2- attacks using shinsoo that's found in the internal body of it's users.

In the first case, most tower users, regulars up to high rankers, need shinsoo from their environments to create attacks, and the quantity of usable shinsoo is limited to their contracts with admins. This is the group of individuals that can be frustrated by Hell Joe's no shinsoo area.

But in the second case, those who have an internal supply of shinsoo such as Baam directly tapped from the internal supply to create attacks. Hell Joe himself had an internal supply (the baby admin). AND WHITE HAD AN INTERNAL SUPPLY OF SHINSOO: BILLIONS OF SOULS. So then, White shouldn't be frustrated by a no shinsoo area