Done Help with Kansai-ben

[cmertb]

A batter yelling after batting a run in:
最初に一本プレゼントしてやったんを忘れたんか！！　(I think he's referring to the fact that they scored off him in the beginning of the game.)
{Did you forget the present you gave me from the start!!?}
少しはお返しの気持ち持たなあかんで！！
{I have to make you feel a little of the same!! <-- not sure about this at all}
かなわんでホンマ。
{No clue what this means.}

 

[cookie_on_fire]

It would be helpful if you include the page. Or give more context. I kinda know what he's saying, but I don't know how they fit together.

And my guess is that かなわん＝かなわない more or less.

 

[cmertb]

There isn't really any more context to this, or I would've included it. The other team scored first against this batter's team (he was pitching). Now he batted in the first run for his team. And this is what he's yelling afterward.

If it's かなわない, I still don't know what it means. Googling for the whole expression produced a bunch of hits, so I'm thinking it's a standard phrase of some kind. But no clue about the meaning.

 

[mikkih]

cookie on fire is correct. かなわん＝かなわない
........................

Based on the context you listed, here is what I came up with. Since it is about the baseball, 一本　means a hit.

最初に一本プレゼントしてやったんを忘れたんか！！
Have you forgotten that I had let you hit (or I had given out a hit ) in the beginning (+of the game)?!

少しはお返しの気持ち持たなあかんで！！
You should get the sense of returning a favor a bit more.

かなわんでホンマ
Really/Seriously, give us/me a break. or How troublesome.
(Note: Speech Type: Male)

Here are the variations of the words from the sentences.
やったんを　＝　やったのを　＝　してあげたのを　　
たんか　＝　たのか
持たな　＝　持たないと　
あかん[で]　＝　だめ[だ]　
かなわん[で]*　＝　かなわへん[わ] = かなわない[な]　＝　こまった[な]　＝　こまった[ものだ] =やってられない
ほんま　＝　ほんとに　＝　ほんとうに/本当に

*　かなわんalso means 力がおよばない　or 勝てない but 「 XXには」 usually comes right before かなわん.
..................

Extra: If Major is E for everyone or PG, I would say One Outs is PG13.

 

[cookie_on_fire]

No, the third line is not quite right.

It's more like "You're no match for me." Because in the previous two lines, he was like "I let you win/get a hit in the first time/inning", "so you should be grateful" [because you wouldn't have done it otherwise].

Does that make sense?

 

[mikkih]

No, the third line is not quite right.

It's more like "You're no match for me." Because in the previous two lines, he was like "I let you win/get a hit in the first time/inning", "so you should be grateful" [because you wouldn't have done it otherwise].
Does that make sense?

(1)
First, I need to make a correction on/addition to my previous post.

I wrote:
最初に一本プレゼントしてやったんを忘れたんか！！
Have you forgotten that we I had let you hit (or we I had given out a hit ) in the beginning (+of the game)?!

Change to:
Have you forgotten that I had let you have a hit (and score) first?

Reason for the change: If both teams scored ZERO for a while, then the opponent had a hit, then 最初に should be translated as my correction.　It can be the first inning (初回)　but it does not have to be. My original translation was based on cmertb's statement: (I think he's referring to the fact that they scored off him in the beginning of the game.)

.............................................................
(2)
English is my second language, so let me just clarify a couple of things first before I comment on your post.

Your interpretations are:
1st line: "I let you win/get a hit in the first time/inning"
2nd line: "so you should be grateful"
3rd line: I am better than you.

Does "You're no match for me." mean "I am better than you", not "You are better than me?"


..............................................................
(3)

The main character/speaker/the pitcher who is batting says the 1-2-3 lines.

My guess was that the opponent started to pitch one or a couple of hard balls for him(the main character) to hit, then he said the following.

<These are not translations but my interpretations.>

1st line: You (the pitcher from the other team) are pitching like you have forgotten that I let you (or you guys) have a hit first.

2nd line: Since I let you hit and score earlier, return me a favor and let me hit now.

3rd line: You can rephrase かなわんでホンマ　to: マジでやってられんわ**。Seriously, give me a break.

** Since I am a Japanese native from Kansai, I did not use any translation tools or dictionaries to rephrase the sentence for your reference.

 

[cookie_on_fire]

Saying "you're no match for me" is sort of like "I'm better than you are".

From my interpretation, it's like saying "I let you have it easy the first time, so you should return the favor, because you wouldn't have done (whatever) it without my help". And that is why, "I'm better".

But I could be wrong. You're the native Kansai speaker.

 

[mikkih]

If the phrase is オレにはかなわんで (You can't beat me), then your translation would fit well. (See * in blue.) Unless you specify "オレには"　you normally expect "Othersには."
The problem is ほんま　is followed right after. This one is かなわんでホンマ, but often is ホンマかなんわんわ, a commonly used phrase of a complaint.

As mentioned in my earlier post**, かなわん is こまった　
........................................
<From my old post>
かなわん[で]*　＝　かなわへん[わ] = かなわない[な]　＝　こまった[な]　＝　こまった[ものだ] =やってられない

*　かなわんalso means 力がおよばない　or 勝てない but 「 XXには」 usually comes right before かなわん.
.......................................

The best online reference I found for かなわん is
http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1241788242
　The page is in Japanese.

Summary　of the link above:
Q.What is かなわんなぁ?　A.　Similar to まいったなあ
（まいった is similar to こまった。）

Are you confused enough, cmertb?

 

[cookie_on_fire]

I thought that かなわない was the negative form of 適う, like you said: 勝てない, hence my translation.

But if you say that ホンマ gives the meaning of a complaint, then I guess what I had was not right. Is that the implication it always gives in Kaisai ben?

 

[mikkih]

Well, it is not that ホンマ makes it a complaint. ホンマ is a Kansai dialect for 本当に, and is used to emphasize a statement. When you complain or praise, you naturally add ホンマ to emphasize how bad it is or how good it is. ホンマis casually used practically everywhere. When かなわない is used to indicate "負ける lose", you should expect "～に(or ～には). before かなわん"　When you don't see "～には then the meaning is more like 困った　or、面倒なことだ

Besides, if he is so confident that he is great, he would not need a return favor in line 2.

Other reference
かなわない(standard, non-dialect reference):
http://thesaurus.weblio.jp/content/かなわない

ホンマに(Kansai dialect) <-- This has good explanation incl. the usage.
http://www.weblio.jp/content/ホンマにhttp://www.weblio.jp/content/ホンマに
http://www.weblio.jp/content/ほんまに

 

[cookie_on_fire]

Well, I know what ホンマ means, as I usually just translate it as "seriously!" or something along those lines. So basically you're saying that it's usually something bad if there is no には in the sentence?

 

[mikkih]

It's hard to say Yes or No, so .... let me go back to the original word for かなわん。Aｓ　you guessed first, it came from かなわない。　 Affirmative form is かなう.

You can see the definitions of かなう here.
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/43393/m0u/
Quote:
...................
４ （敵う）対等の力がある。対抗できる。匹敵する。あとに打消しの語を伴う。「語学では彼に―・う者はいない」

５ （「かなわない」「かなわぬ」などの形で）
①そうすることやそういう状態に我慢できない。やりきれない。たまらない。「こうせかされては―・わない」「暑くて―・わない」「退屈で―・わない」
..................
Your translation is based on Definition 4, but it usually requires ～に(or　には) before かなわない.

Without ～に(or　には) --> See Definition 5-①
.....................................
<Examples Based on Definition 4>
（１）かなわ(へ)ん　＝　can't beat someone, no match
A. おれに(or には)かなわ（へ）ん。 You are no match for me.　
B. おまえに(or には)かなわ（へ）ん。I am no match for you.
<The usage of B(someone else is better than me.) is more common than A.>
A is the form that omits Subject "You" in
おまえ は、おれに（orには）　かなわ（へ）ん。
B is the form that omits Subject "I" in
おれは、おまえに（には）かなわ（へ）ん。

It is important to specify に~　or には~ as Subject is already omitted.

<An Example Based on Definition 5-①> ...　like seen in manga.
(2) かなわ（へ）ん　＝　こまった troubled
かなわん（わ/で/なぁ） without ”～には”：　I am troubled. How troublesome. Give me a break.
かなわんでホンマ:　similar to まったく困ったものだ、まったくまいったな、本当に面倒なことだ。マジいい加減にしてくれ,

.........................................
By the way, I would expect you to know such word as ホンマに, but I list links and information for other viewers (specially for cmertb) who can read Japanese.

Here are a few more reference links for the usage 5-①:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/近畿方言
かなわん【適わん・敵わん】 - 嫌だ。やり切れない。堪らない。「かなん」とも。

http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1241788242
かなわんなぁ　＝　まいったなあ

http://oshiete.goo.ne.jp/qa/241801.html
「かなわんわ」というのは大変だという意味です。

......................
I will not be able to access my computer much this week, so I would like to apologize in advance for any delay in my future replies.

 

[cmertb]

Wow, thank you mikkih and cookie_on_fire for an awesome discussion. I learned a lot. In fact, I learned enough to drive me to despair about how much I have yet to learn.

---

Another line from the same character:

http://a.imageshack.us/img256/4560/05131.jpg 2nd panel, これが持って生まれたスター性ちゅうもんやろな。

I don't think I have a problem with the dialect here. I just don't get it. Especially the meaning of スター性.

 

[mikkih]

スター性

スター性＝スターになる要素、素質　
Star quality/What makes a person a star
It can include the person's natural talent, charisma and looks.

It reminded me of a movie, Natural Born Killer....in this case a Natural Born Star...

これが持って生まれたスター性ちゅうもんやろな。
I guess this is what you call the natural star quality.

これが This is
持って生まれた born with
スター性 star quality
ちゅう=という　so called
もん=もの thing
やろな＝だろうな　assume, probably

 

[cmertb]

Thank you mikkih. ちゅうもん = というもの, is this Kansai pronunciation, or standard Japanese too?

 

[mikkih]

I don't think ちゅうis only used in Kansai/Kiniki area. Maybe other members in Kanto area can answer your question for sure.

- Usage -
なんちゅうこと＝なんということ
なんちゅうもん＝なんというもの
なんちゅうか＝なんというか
ちゅうても＝といっても

 

[cmertb]

I probably would've figured out the other ones. But ちゅうもん alone threw me off into thinking 注文, and I just couldn't understand how it could fit in the sentence grammatically.