Question Hisoka's resurrection discussion

[Hannibal Psyche]

The pages you quoted have nothing to do with hisoka.

Irrelevant, it's to do with Nen.

 

[shionoro]

Irrelevant, it's to do with Nen.

Which, as we established by now, does not let you conclude anything about hisoka's strength right now.

Nen also gets stronger when you use an limitation, but ceases to be so if the limitation is broken.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

There is nothing saying that any nen user gets stronger through death, because that case is completely new.

If Nen gets stronger, it essentially makes the user stronger.

To say otherwise is simply fallacious and feigning ignorance or suppressing logic.

Again, believe what you will, but it's clearly a false belief.

 

[shionoro]

If Nen gets stronger, it essentially makes the user stronger.

To say otherwise is simply fallacious and feigning ignorance or suppressing logic.

Again, believe what you will, but it's clearly a false belief.

If nen gets stronger due to a condition, it gets weaker if the condition falls flat.
You basically want to deny this core mechanic of the nen in hunter x hunter, and that is very unreasonable.

 

[uberfayt]

There's really nothing to debate is the point because the Manga explicitly states that his Nen does get stronger.

When people get stronger abilities, it's natural their abilities have more functions, and that's exactly what we saw with Hisoka.

The fact again is there's simply nothing in the Manga that provokes one to think otherwise other than not wanting to accept it.

Yes, it is the fact that I did not like the "worst case scenario" which pushed me to think of other alternatives. But these alternatives are also deduced from the manga and are made following logical patterns, whether they are irrelevant or not worth mentioning doesn't matter actually as long as they could've happened and nothing from the manga disproves it.

Same with deducing that "Hisoka got stronger" from Machi saying "Nen after death ?". As I've stated many times, the latter deduction does seem the most likely to have happened, however it is not a certitude !! Nowhere in the manga does it state "Hisoka got stronger" as a fact, it is still a theory (with 95% chance of being true IMO).

My point is that instead of saying "Hisoka got stronger is 100% true" (which is not proven yet), one has to admit that "Hisoka got stronger is most likely 95% true" (or 99% if you want ).
This is what @shionoro is saying. Sometimes you make it sound as if in the manga, it is stated clearly that "Hisoka got stronger 100%", but it is not.

We are all following what's in the manga, for instance nobody challenges the fact that Gon was a lot stronger at the moment when he faced Pitou in the invasion arc, because it was clearly stated by Killua.

Nobody is in denial ^^.

 

[shionoro]

To talk about something else:

I REALLY cannot shake off the feeling that there is more to the fight and resurrection than we know.

I mean, the whole conversation between Hisoka and chrollo felt like they are talking about something i don't understand.
Chrollo often said 'so you understand' and stuff like that, as if giving subtle hints about something.

What sounds VERY farfetched but might be right is that chrollo wanted hisoka to do exactly what he did.
Chrollo went through great lengths to mention nenstayingbehind. And when he first mentioned it, Hisoka's reaction seemed off.
I mean, sure, hisoka knows that nen might get stronger after a user died.

But why did he make this face?

Hisoka is not the kind of guy that makes a hateful or angry expression just because he learns that his opponent might have a strong ability.
I have two possible explanations:

Either Hisoka knew that sun and moon belonged to the meteor city elder and was upset about his death, or....

Well here comes the farfetched one: Or Hisoka knew that chrollo was trying to tell him that he exspects him to die and try to use nenstayingbehind.
The whole fight can be interpreted in chrollo making it as provocative and unpleasant for hisoka as he could.
He asked him several times whether they should stop, he made that comment about style (which would make sense if chrollo's goal was for hisoka to use nenstayingbehind) and his tactiv in general would lead anyone to frustration.
There is also no way that chrollo would not have foreseen that his normal copies might cushion an explosion.
He could have done that on purpose so the body will not be too damaged.

But why? I admit that i have no real base for that theory except my feeling and these some instances which felt off in the battle (hisoka's expression, chrollo's comments, the lucky coincidence that the blow got cushioned).

We know that three spider were sent to check hisoka's body. But instead of checking, they could always simply have cut off the head or pierced his heart and lungs. One nenstrike or even knifestab would have been enough. It would have saved time, too.
I also ask myself why chrollo didn't go himself. I mean, he was in the crowd while the incident happened, so maybe he was escorted outside and had no chance to get in again without raising suspicion, but on the other hand, he has the facechange ability and he could always manipulate one security guard to escort him there (notice that he had the antennae back, he wanted to give them to shalnark later).
May it be as it will, i think the spider might have been there to check the body for nen activity after death.

Now, why didnt they find anything? The question has been raised a lot. If hisoka was dead for a long time, he would definitely have suffered brain damage at this point. And if he wasnt, why did shalnark rule he suffocated?
The only answer i got if we follow the (and i admit again, farfetched) theory i present here is that Hisoka was not dead at that point.
The spider didn't have tools to check for brainwaves, they simply measured heart and lung capacity and checked for nenactivity.
At that point, hisoka was in the state of someone who drowned. His heart and lung stopped and he could not breathe for some time, but CPR might revive him. For an observer who is not actually interested in reviving him tho, you see a blue lipped corpse who does not breath nor has a heartbeat and can thus be ruled dead.

At that point, you might still survive without braindamage even in real life (and we know that HxH stretches the human physique a bit at time).
If shortly after the explosion security swarmed arround, they would have searched for injured people and escorted out the rest.

This is the crate after the explosion. If we assume that all copies with symbols were completed pulverized and the zombies between hisoka and the explosive ones were at least blown away into small parts, only hisoka's corpse would have been lying rather intact in the middle of the field.
The picture we see is pretty fresh, there still are not all people escorted out and still people in the middle being dragged off. But HIsoka is nowhere to be seen, so he was among the first people to be dragged out of the arena (possibly even BY the spider?).
It is very possible that hisoka never saw a real doctor who tried to CPR him, but was pretty immidietly dragged off and just examined by the spider in a short timefram.

The spider were sure that there was not any nenflaring to be seen at that point anymore. Were they just not thourough? Or was hisoka's nenstayingbehind atypical? Does it react sooner usually? It did in Pitou's case. Pitou was dead for some minutes max and then terpsichora went rogue.

I think Hisoka's body did react to machi. He asked Machi before to stich him together if he dies.
His nen flared up exactly when she did the first stich. That might have been the cue for hisoka's unconsciousness that it is actually over and thus activated the condition.

So, why was machi surprised? I think it was because she was not there for the mission of checking, but rather on her own just tagging along for her deal with hisoka. it might very well be that hisoka would not have revived if she was not there at the end.

Chrollo might have speculated to gain an ability from hisoka's corpse if his nen reanimates (might be possible, we don't know chrollo's new conditions).

_______________________

So that's it. Laugh all you want, most of this is very unprobable (but with he second picture, i think at least the timeframe of hisoka being dragged off is clearer) but i stand by there being more to this fight than we know.
Another thing is whether chrollo had help in the fight (hisoka was confused about how chrollo got the antennae back one time).

I am confident that there will be a chapter in which we see the spider's reaction to Hisoka's killing and we might get to know more about chrollo's motives.
No matter how good chrollo's strategy was and how suitable it was for heaven's arena: He would have had an easier time to deal with hisoka if he had just sent a spider strikeforce with 3 or even 4 people hunting him down.[/quote]

 

[EdwardRictofin]

I think the authors intent was to make Hisokas death to make him stronger.

 

[ShadowHeart]

I think the authors intent was to make Hisokas death to make him stronger.

I agree I have a feeling Hisoka coming alive will also do something to his Nen as well.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Yes, it is the fact that I did not like the "worst case scenario" which pushed me to think of other alternatives.

SO, in other words, your reasoning isn't entirely on rationality, but on preference which is not the way to be objective. Objectivity should be totally devoid off preference and personal touch, but facts.

Nen growing stronger after death is not random, it's been iterated and mentioned, it's clearly a rhetorical question which you're seemingly not aware of.

It's like saying that because someone sees Hisoka and says "Hisoka?!" then means that it's not Hisoka which is essentially what you're doing. The entire purpose of rhetorical device is to point to questionable things which are exactly what they are.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 18, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 18, 2016 ---

If nen gets stronger due to a condition, it gets weaker if the condition falls flat.
You basically want to deny this core mechanic of the nen in hunter x hunter, and that is very unreasonable.

You're obviously in denial.

No where is it stated or implied that the reverse is true.

If what you stated were remotely true, then Chrollo using an ability that grew stronger after death should only be strong in death, not while being used by an actively alive person.

2 can play at that game.

The entire purpose of this contrived death was simply to make Hisoka stronger.

Pretty much brough a dead character back to life, why it's absurd for a strength increase is obviously denial.

 

[shionoro]

You're obviously in denial.

No where is it stated or implied that the reverse is true.

If what you stated were remotely true, then Chrollo using an ability that grew stronger after death should only be strong in death, not while being used by an actively alive person.

2 can play at that game.

The entire purpose of this contrived death was simply to make Hisoka stronger.

Pretty much brough a dead character back to life, why it's absurd for a strength increase is obviously denial.

So you think all those people simply stick to their conditions because.....well because what?
And no, chrollo can use that ability in its stronger version because its original user is dead. The ability got stronger because that person is still dead.
It has nothing to do with chrollo's status.

But if chrollo does not stick to his own conditions, he cannot use his hatsu anymore.

I never said that is is unreasonable per se to think hisoka could have a strength increase, even if i think it is very very unlikely.
I said you denying a core mechanic of HxH, namely that of conditions, is unreasonable.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It has nothing to do with chrollo's status.

How do you know? Where does it state in the Manga?

Like I said, you're being hypocritical, double standard applied when it doesn't benefit the point that Hisoka is stronger.

 

[shionoro]

How do you know? Where does it state in the Manga?

Like I said, you're being hypocritical, double standard applied when it doesn't benefit the point that Hisoka is stronger.

Because Chrollo.....Does it?
YOu really ask me now why I know that chrollo does not have to be dead to use an ability that he used a lot while being alive?
And then you call that a double standard? 0.o

 

[uberfayt]

SO, in other words, your reasoning isn't entirely on rationality, but on preference which is not the way to be objective. Objectivity should be totally devoid off preference and personal touch, but facts.

No, in other words it means you are just messing with me with your mind games and straw-men arguments. My reasoning was clear and objective and there is nothing to add. You can read it back in my posts, if you don't understand smth from them we can discuss it anytime.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Because Chrollo.....Does it?
YOu really ask me now why I know that chrollo does not have to be dead to use an ability that he used a lot while being alive?
And then you call that a double standard? 0.o

Nope, you clearly failed to grasp the question and misconstrued it.

You believe Chrollo is using an ability that once belonged to a Dead Person is stronger even though Chrollo is now the current owner and is alive; your rationale implies it shouldn't be stronger.

As I said before, you're being hypocritical in this respect. It's fine for Chrollo's Sun and Moon to still be stronger after death, but not Hisoka's Bungee Gum.

It is a double standard and clearly because you harbour inability to accept that Togashi clearly pulled a Deux Ex Machina for Hisoka.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 19, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 19, 2016 ---

No, in other words it means you are just messing with me with your mind games and straw-men arguments. My reasoning was clear and objective and there is nothing to add. You can read it back in my posts, if you don't understand smth from them we can discuss it anytime.

There is nothing to read, you explicitly stated that "you didn't like it".

Therefore, you opted to form a scenario or answer which suited your preference which is what people do when in denial.

Objectivity accepts things, not change things.

I don't like the fact that the earth revolves around the sun, the other way is better, but that doesn't mean I can then decide to tweak facts just to make my preference justified.

 

[uberfayt]

There is nothing to read, you explicitly stated that "you didn't like it".

Therefore, you opted to form a scenario or answer which suited your preference which is what people do when in denial.

Objectivity accepts things, not change things.

I don't like the fact that the earth revolves around the sun, the other way is better, but that doesn't mean I can then decide to tweak facts just to make my preference justified.

Funny how you talk about tweaking facts, but that's exactly what you are doing with my statements.

I like how you've taken only the first sentence of my post so that it becomes out of context, then came up with an answer which makes things look as if I'm just making things up lol. However I'll ask you one thing, if you are being serious about this discussion then I'll remind you one last time our standing points and ask you to answer within our topic, without any straw-man arguments.

So You are saying "Hisoka got stronger after death is 100 % true".

I'm saying you are being wrong in taking it as a fact and certitude, but I agree with you all the way if you say "Hisoka got stronger after death is 90% true". Cuz that's what I think too.

Telling me that I'm not being objective the way you did, has proven you have read nothing from what I've written and are just trolling (at best). I'm sorry but this behavior is disrespectful.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I like how you've taken only the first sentence of my post so that it becomes out of context,

It's somewhat reflective regardless, more or less captivates the essence of your conclusion.

• You know from Phinks and Hisoka (Chrollo) abilities grow stronger after death.
• You read Machi clearly stating that his Nen had grown stronger.
• You saw Hisoka pull off feats that he'd never done before.

Yet your conclusion is his Nen isn't stronger; your conclusion is against the grain and inconsistent with objective reasoning.

What is the evidence you can provide to counter the fact that everything points to its growing stronger?

 

[shionoro]

Nope, you clearly failed to grasp the question and misconstrued it.

You believe Chrollo is using an ability that once belonged to a Dead Person is stronger even though Chrollo is now the current owner and is alive; your rationale implies it shouldn't be stronger.

As I said before, you're being hypocritical in this respect. It's fine for Chrollo's Sun and Moon to still be stronger after death, but not Hisoka's Bungee Gum.

It is a double standard and clearly because you harbour inability to accept that Togashi clearly pulled a Deux Ex Machina for Hisoka.

It is the same thing.
You make up a fact 'like chrollo being the current owner even tho his ability is build arround him being a thief who steals things from the actual owner' and then say togashi is inconsistent, while the obvious solution is that the ability is always 'registered' on the original owner and thus vanishes when he dies or, in case of nenstayingbehind, might get stronger.
Your whole idea about it makes no sense because if chrollo was the actual owner without a link to the original owner, why would it usually vanish?

Fact is, chrollo's stolen ability gets stronger sometimes when the original owner dies, and that makes sense.
Because the condition of it getting stronge rin the first place was that the owner dies, which is still intact even if chrollo uses it.

Your modus operandi is making up facts which have no evidence in the manga as axioms and then saying the manga handling matter in the more obvious way are illogical.

It is like you are saying you are speculating that robin from one piece cannot make other body parts with her power, and when it happens you simply say that means oda did a mistake.
It is really meaningless.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 19, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 19, 2016 ---

It's somewhat reflective regardless, more or less captivates the essence of your conclusion.

• You know from Phinks and Hisoka (Chrollo) abilities grow stronger after death.
• You read Machi clearly stating that his Nen had grown stronger.
• You saw Hisoka pull off feats that he'd never done before.

Yet your conclusion is his Nen isn't stronger; your conclusion is against the grain and inconsistent with objective reasoning.

What is the evidence you can provide to counter the fact that everything points to its growing stronger?

....You REALLY should read what people actually write.
Uberfayt even agreed with you and thinks that is is more probable that hisoka's nen got stronger (so disagrees with me who is VERY sure that it didnt).
But the thing on which both Uberfayt and i agree on is that we have no way of knowing yet, because this is the first time something like that has happened.
And that is simply true.

And when you then accuse him of 'denying the truth' because he 'does not like it' when he thinks it is more probable that you are right than that I am right...Then i have to question your effort in reading other people's posts.

 

[uberfayt]

It's somewhat reflective regardless, more or less captivates the essence of your conclusion.

No it was not, please read the full post where I explicitely explain my standing point. It's really diminutive that you just try to guess the whole content of a message just from reading the first statement (especially when there is a concession and you ignore it).

Spoiler: my previous post

Yes, it is the fact that I did not like the "worst case scenario" which pushed me to think of other alternatives. But these alternatives are also deduced from the manga and are made following logical patterns, whether they are irrelevant or not worth mentioning doesn't matter actually as long as they could've happened and nothing from the manga disproves it.

Same with deducing that "Hisoka got stronger" from Machi saying "Nen after death ?". As I've stated many times, the latter deduction does seem the most likely to have happened, however it is not a certitude !! Nowhere in the manga does it state "Hisoka got stronger" as a fact, it is still a theory (with 95% chance of being true IMO).

My point is that instead of saying "Hisoka got stronger is 100% true" (which is not proven yet), one has to admit that "Hisoka got stronger is most likely 95% true" (or 99% if you want ).
This is what @shionoro is saying. Sometimes you make it sound as if in the manga, it is stated clearly that "Hisoka got stronger 100%", but it is not.

We are all following what's in the manga, for instance nobody challenges the fact that Gon was a lot stronger at the moment when he faced Pitou in the invasion arc, because it was clearly stated by Killua.

Nobody is in denial ^^.

• You know from Phinks and Hisoka (Chrollo) abilities grow stronger after death.
• You read Machi clearly stating that his Nen had grown stronger.
• You saw Hisoka pull off feats that he'd never done before.

Yet your conclusion is his Nen isn't stronger; your conclusion is against the grain and inconsistent with objective reasoning.

My conclusion is not that !!!!! My conclusion is "Hisoka got stronger after death is 90% true". In the first place I never told anybody they are wrong from believing it, since I also think it happened, but I don't go tell people it is what actually happened...cuz nobody can certify it. And btw those three points you've stated are tweaked. If you mention them exactly as they are mentioned in the manga then you clearly can see they just strongly hint, but not certify the whole "aura got stronger" thing.

What is the evidence you can provide to counter the fact that everything points to its growing stronger?

Actually why would I need to provide a counter example to something I agree with ? This is what you never understood in my messages. Look, I totally agree that " everything points to its growing stronger".

However I strongly disagree when you say " everything certifies to its growing stronger". There a huge, huge difference between the two.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 19, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 19, 2016 ---

But the thing on which both Uberfayt and i agree on is that we have no way of knowing yet, because this is the first time something like that has happened.
And that is simply true.

Exactly @shionoro . Prost !

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It is the same thing.
You make up a fact 'like chrollo being the current owner even tho his ability is build arround him being a thief who steals things from the actual owner' and then say togashi is inconsistent, while the obvious solution is that the ability is always 'registered' on the original owner and thus vanishes when he dies or, in case of nenstayingbehind, might get stronger.
Your whole idea about it makes no sense because if chrollo was the actual owner without a link to the original owner, why would it usually vanish?

You're using a double standard here.

You're happy to accept the ability of Chrollo is still stronger despite Togashi never explicitly saying that it is still stronger even though it's not the original user using it. With your logic, it should reset and he should have to make it stronger since the new user (Chrollo) is alive.

However, when this is the case with Hisoka, you claim that his Nen isn't stronger simply because you don't want to accept it. Like I said, double standard. You're wanting Togashi to say it's still stronger despite already making the point.

I'm not the one making up these facts, it's you; you're the one stating that Hisoka's Nen didn't get stronger since he's alive which is a fallacy.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 20, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 20, 2016 ---

My conclusion is not that !!!!! My conclusion is "Hisoka got stronger after death is 90% true". In the first place I never told anybody they are wrong from believing it, since I also think it happened, but I don't go tell people it is what actually happened...cuz nobody can certify it. And btw those three points you've stated are tweaked. If you mention them exactly as they are mentioned in the manga then you clearly can see they just strongly hint, but not certify the whole "aura got stronger" thing.

Actually why would I need to provide a counter example to something I agree with ? This is what you never understood in my messages. Look, I totally agree that " everything points to its growing stronger".

However I strongly disagree when you say " everything certifies to its growing stronger". There a huge, huge difference between the two.

And, where did you magically conjure this "90% true" from?

You may "90%" agree, but that's not the point. Every panel more or less makes the case he is stronger, so to say otherwise or even have doubt needs evidence which you don't have for the latter "10%" of your conclusion.

Tweaked? That's absurd. Things don't need to be said word for word to reflect the essence of a statement, that's why we're able to paraphrase. If it's tweaked, then prove it, but it'd only be a game of semantics of a pedantic nature because I am more or less saying the exact same thing from the Manga.

If you're going to say anything or support anything from a story, you have to base it off the story with Evidence. Evidence is the only way to certify these things and it's clearly certified that Hisoka's Nen got stronger. How you conclude it's not certified is mindbogglingly amazing to say the least.

I really don't see what's not certified Here:

More so despite the fact that this idea of stronger Nen is even highlighted before this resurrection is to prepare the reader that this is possible.

Spoiler

To say otherwise and dismiss this prior panels which offer a foundation to Hisoka's Nen's strength as nothing, dismiss-able or unnecessary dialogue is simply a lack of contextualising or even "tweaking" to stick to such a conclusion as the one you currently hold.

It's quite clear his Nen is stronger, both in writing and implications. You even argue (iirc) that showing off new applications of Nen after it's become stronger is of no relevance which is the ideal way to showcase something getting stronger.

 

[shionoro]

You're using a double standard here.

You're happy to accept the ability of Chrollo is still stronger despite Togashi never explicitly saying that it is still stronger even though it's not the original user using it. With your logic, it should reset and he should have to make it stronger since the new user (Chrollo) is alive.

However, when this is the case with Hisoka, you claim that his Nen isn't stronger simply because you don't want to accept it. Like I said, double standard. You're wanting Togashi to say it's still stronger despite already making the point.

I'm not the one making up these facts, it's you; you're the one stating that Hisoka's Nen didn't get stronger since he's alive which is a fallacy.

Togashi does not explicitly have to say everything when it becomes clear that it is de facto true.
No, regarding my logic, that is the way chrollo's ability works and that is to be accepted. And it makes sense because chrollo stole an ability which got stronger due to the condition that its original user dies . That condition is still intact, thus it is absolutely fine if it is stronger in chrollo's book.

The same is not true for hisoka. Hisoka is alive and thus the condition falls flat.
This is not a double standard, those are two completely different things.

And no, it is not a fallacy to say that conditions have to be satisfyed in HxH for an ability to get stronger and stay stronger.
That is just a fact and it is kind of undebateable except if you think all those nenusers just respect their conditions for the lulz.