How powerful is Garam Zahard?

[V_TheHiddenAxis]

--Is she corps commander level (Kallavan level) or higher or below it?

--She has two 13 month series blades and is 5000+ year old

Thoughts?

 

[Shadowlord123]

Yeah, probably no less than Corps Commander level. Especially with how much hype the Princesses are getting in Season 3. Wouldn't be surprised if she turns out to be even stronger.

 

[Demonspeed]

Hard to say. I think it depends on how strong you think Hell Joe was. IIRC Hockney said that without Urek they were doomed to lose but there are certainly High Rankers who could beat him with ease. Even Urek said it.

 

[Jackjohsnon]

Stronger than White. Weaker than Kallavan

 

[VON]

Stronger than White. Weaker than Kallavan

What is this disrespect?

 

[kkck]

Hmmm, from the framing it appeared she was implied to be stronger than yuri at least. I suppose her being in the corp commander level is about reasonable.

Hell joe is a different animal though. While I am sure what urek said is accurate... the power hell joe showed was still substantial. I think it's likely hell joe wouldn't just be able to shut down shinsoo control outside of the thrysa's native floor but even then I could see it's power being higher than your standard corps commander.

 

[VON]

Hard to say. I think it depends on how strong you think Hell Joe was. IIRC Hockney said that without Urek they were doomed to lose but there are certainly High Rankers who could beat him with ease. Even Urek said it.

Its probably the regent level people. They can beat Hell Joe by virtue of their physical strength like current Dumas.

 

[kkck]

It has to be more than the top people in the great families. There''s already a significant gap between the regent types we know and their followers.. And you have folk like khel hellam who aren't going around one shooting corp commanders but can still take on two of them at a time. It'd be weird if the only people that can beat hell joe in the tower are literally the top 2-3 of the great families, what urek said wouldn't be true at all.

 

[VON]

It has to be more than the top people in the great families. There''s already a significant gap between the regent types we know and their followers.. And you have folk like khel hellam who aren't going around one shooting corp commanders but can still take on two of them at a time. It'd be weird if the only people that can beat hell joe in the tower are literally the top 2-3 of the great families, what urek said wouldn't be true at all.

Regents would still make like 30-40 people in the tower capable of beating him.

alternatively, if Hell Joe’s shinsoo zero zone ability only works on the floor of death, most of the top 100-200 could probably destroy him easily.

i only mentioned regent if they were fighting under the same condition in the floor of death. Even Garam is helpless.

 

[kkck]

Regents would still make like 30-40 people in the tower capable of beating him.

alternatively, if Hell Joe’s shinsoo zero zone ability only works on the floor of death, most of the top 100-200 could probably destroy him easily.

i only mentioned regent if they were fighting under the same condition in the floor of death. Even Garam is helpless.

That sounds fairyly high. So so far there have been 2 of that type of character per family (ha twins, dumas-proust, kirin-lobadon). With ten families you'd get to 20. What is worth looking out for is the ha, koon and arie family that might have more or probably more exceptional regent types. It's pretty certain that in hidden floor hell joe can take away anyone's shinsoo control. The families with the sheer raw might to stand out here would be the ha or the koon perhaps... But otherwise in the floor of death I think they'd be screwed.

 

[Demonspeed]

I think Hell Joe loses to anyone who is Top 300 tier.

 

[kkck]

I think Hell Joe loses to anyone who is Top 300 tier.

Maybe I am misremembering but iirc garam and yuri were fucked when fighting hell joe even before he shut down their shinsoo control. Something like that seems like it'd allow him an edge against at least quite a few folk in the tier.

 

[Shadowlord123]

Even without the Zero Area, Hell Joe at the FoD was still incredibly powerful. SIU mentioned that the team of Garam + Yuri + Evan + Kranka was needed to face him, as he was OP in his turf. This came before the Zero Area (afterward they had no chance at all), and before he transformed and grew even stronger against Urek.

I'd say this makes Hell Joe quite insane if we consider the way Yuri has been portrayed in Season 3. She's at least as powerful as pennless Tiara, who showed the capacity to quickly slaughter Enkidu-possessed Goruro. A BH is implied to be within the Top 200-300, and I doubt he'd have been any weaker possessed by Enkidu (if anything, perhaps even stronger). There's a blogpost in Season 2 that implies Yuri might be even stronger than Jinsung (very controversial I'm aware, but the way Season 3 has been running, I would no longer be surprised if this was the case).

Anyways, Yuri on her own should already be far stronger than the baseline Top 200-300 (average BH level). Garam is probably even stronger than Yuri. Evan and the rest add something too. SIU mentioned this was like a dream team, so yeah, that gives you an idea of Hell Joe's strength at the FoD.

 

[VON]

That sounds fairyly high. So so far there have been 2 of that type of character per family (ha twins, dumas-proust, kirin-lobadon). With ten families you'd get to 20. What is worth looking out for is the ha, koon and arie family that might have more or probably more exceptional regent types. It's pretty certain that in hidden floor hell joe can take away anyone's shinsoo control. The families with the sheer raw might to stand out here would be the ha or the koon perhaps... But otherwise in the floor of death I think they'd be screwed.

Yeah, I’d imagine the top 5 of the Arie, Khun, and Ha is more comparable to the regents of the other 7 family. Then ofc the Zahard’s princesses and older FUG’s slayers/elders (possibly). That’d make rhe bulk of the 30-40.

Dumas, for example, I’m confident his raw might is enough to twist Hell Joe’s head off clean even if he restricted shinsoo usage.

 

[kkck]

Yeah, I’d imagine the top 5 of the Arie, Khun, and Ha is more comparable to the regents of the other 7 family. Then ofc the Zahard’s princesses and older FUG’s slayers/elders (possibly). That’d make rhe bulk of the 30-40.

Dumas, for example, I’m confident his raw might is enough to twist Hell Joe’s head off clean even if he restricted shinsoo usage.

Welp, the zahard princesses are another issue there... Yuri made the point that if a great family got all uppity the princesses would mobilize and end it. I suppose adori is already more than implied to be capable of that but yuri's words make it sound as if the rest of the princesses carry their weight here. But the ones we know are active are pretty much hagipherione (give or take the lore remaining relevant or not), mascheny and yuri... Mascheny was impressed by jinsung which doesn't exactly scream her being comparable to lobadon or dumas. Yuri has had fights but she hasn't been impressive enough to suggest she is in the corp commander tier (though IMO we tecnically can't rule that out yet but even if she was it's not enough). I imagine a couple ha, koons and arie will be stronger than lobadon/dumas tier but I don't think the plot requires them to have an extra 3 lobadons each. If they each have 15 evankhels then it would definitely set them apart from the po bidao or lo po bia.

 

[VON]

Welp, the zahard princesses are another issue there... Yuri made the point that if a great family got all uppity the princesses would mobilize and end it. I suppose adori is already more than implied to be capable of that but yuri's words make it sound as if the rest of the princesses carry their weight here. But the ones we know are active are pretty much hagipherione (give or take the lore remaining relevant or not), mascheny and yuri... Mascheny was impressed by jinsung which doesn't exactly scream her being comparable to lobadon or dumas. Yuri has had fights but she hasn't been impressive enough to suggest she is in the corp commander tier (though IMO we tecnically can't rule that out yet but even if she was it's not enough). I imagine a couple ha, koons and arie will be stronger than lobadon/dumas tier but I don't think the plot requires them to have an extra 3 lobadons each. If they each have 15 evankhels then it would definitely set them apart from the po bidao or lo po bia.

I would imagine there are still more princesses in-between Hagi and Yuri level. They're the main fighting forces of the Army. They must have at least 4 regent tiers to be heads and shoulders above the Great Family individually. Great Family will make up 20 minimum. Zahard Family must make up at least 5. FUG should able to cough up 2-3. That's close to 30 on the lowest estimate.

thats without including people that could come from Wolhaiksong etc.

 

[Demonspeed]

Maybe I am misremembering but iirc garam and yuri were fucked when fighting hell joe even before he shut down their shinsoo control. Something like that seems like it'd allow him an edge against at least quite a few folk in the tier.

Maybe people who are too dependent on Shinsoo like classic Wave Controllers? I need to reread that fight but I don't remember Yuri taking significant damages.

Also, I don't think Yuri is in the Top 300 range. She is too young for that IMO. I don't think that highly of Tiara's power either. Baam is definitely stronger than them.

I think JInsung and more Fisherman type people who have good physical stats would definitely beat him.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 1, 2024, Original Post Date: Jun 1, 2024 ---

Also, on the topic of Maschenny, I know there is no reason to think of her as much stronger than CC considering her feats, but I honestly think she is and it'll be proven sooner or latter once SIU decides to focus more on the princesses. She should logically be at the same level as Hagi. And Yuri has the potential to be up there with these two.

 

[kkck]

Maybe people who are too dependent on Shinsoo like classic Wave Controllers? I need to reread that fight but I don't remember Yuri taking significant damages.

Also, I don't think Yuri is in the Top 300 range. She is too young for that IMO. I don't think that highly of Tiara's power either. Baam is definitely stronger than them.

I think JInsung and more Fisherman type people who have good physical stats would definitely beat him.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 1, 2024, Original Post Date: Jun 1, 2024 ---

Also, on the topic of Maschenny, I know there is no reason to think of her as much stronger than CC considering her feats, but I honestly think she is and it'll be proven sooner or latter once SIU decides to focus more on the princesses. She should logically be at the same level as Hagi. And Yuri has the potential to be up there with these two.

Nah, yuri took only a literal scratch. but the implication at the time was something like it being outright foolish for them to take on hell joe.

Hmm, I feel like SIU hasn't really committed to yuri being at any given tier. Tiara in turn can fart abilities into existence and ignore her shinsoo limit.

If the lore holds up hagi should be quite deadlier than mascheny IMO. With mascheny it's clear she has more stuff up her sleeve (internal quality shinsoo control being the big one we have reason to believe would be a thing) but to me it remains difficult to imagine her being lobadon level and still be THAT impressed with jinsung or even kallavan. With how things have been presented you'd think there'd be more than a handful for koon family members who are comfortable stronger than her...