Character How strong is Atobe ... really?

[Ninomiya]

You are talking about some made up technique -- Rai. Let's talk about facts then shall we? Every time that a major character, e.g, Ryoma, Atobe, faces adversity in the form of a broken technique...they invent a counter.

If Atobe and Sanada were to play a serious match. Atobe would end up countering Rai and Sanada would counter Atobe Kingdom. This is an empirical and statistical observation given past matches of major characters -- do you want to get into the mathematics?

You are very happy to say that Sanada's techniques are >> Atobe's techniques. But then you say that Atobe and Sanada have similar determination. No one is saying that Sanada is a layover, but Atobe's ethos is his underdog status. So if you are going to be fair, say that Atobe's determination is >> Sanada's.

I see what your getting at now. Your anticipating plot-power.
Well instead of a match. Lets just say we look at the powers and abilities of Atobe and Sanada at THIS VERY MOMENT in time. As oppose to a match.
At this very moment in time, Sanada > Atobe without doubt. But sure within a match, with plot power Atobe could possibly handle it.
Thing is, we aint seen much of Black Aura but dont sleep on it.

I am being fair though. Nothing suggests that Atobe >>> Sanada in determination. Look at it from Sanada's view. His best friend since age 4 suddenly cant play tennis. A sport they dominated in their country together up til then. His best friend says Ill have an operation where there is a 50/50 chance I might die.
He then develops Rikkai into having a crushing law. Berating his teammates for not winning good enough even.
I think Sanada's determination is deep. In the Nationals he told off his teammates even though NOBODY dropped a single game.

I dont see where you get that Atobe is the most determined in the series or something. I dont think he necessarily more determined than Atobe. Sanada is known for his discipline and determination. So is Kaidoh, Ryoma, Kawamura. Kawamura I reckon has FAR MORE than Atobe. In real life terms, he should be dead.

Outside of plot-power, Atobe CANNOT return Rai. So... without plot-power and anticipating changes in a PoT match, Atobe wouldnt win.

Listen, if you have to use ''what ifs'' then you know yourself Atobe is weaker than Sanada.
With Atobe VS Fuji, we dont need ''what ifs''. Atobe > Fuji.
Atobe VS MOST MSers in the series lol, we dont need ''what ifs''.

But for the Top of MS World with Ryoma, Yuki, Tezuka and Sanada, you have to start going ''what if in the match something is countered--''. Bro, you know yourself now that Atobe > Sanada as it currently stands.
Unless you could spin round and tell us how Atobe overcomes Rai and then, Black Aura which is undoubtedly a stat boost.

Bro I like you so I hate to say all the s**t you have type is based on your opinion but it is. Fact is Atobe has already beaten Tezuka and was on his to defeating Sanada those are facts in the manga. It's clearly written Atobe has great potential. Also the fact that Konomi has taken the time to write and really define Atobe as a character over almost everyone not name Ryoma Echizen alone is a give away that he could make Atobe that much stronger.

I know you will disagree with me so we will agree to disagree.

First of all, its impossible to bring real life logic to PoT logic hahaha. Nothing fits together. Its all Konomi's doing.

You have a fair point, but 7-6 is not a confident defeat against an opponent who is heavily injured and had Doubled Return sealed away. <--Fact.

Atobe cannot return Rai as it stands now. <-- Fact.

Without plot-power where we ''hope'' Atobe can overcome a technique that he and most MSers simply cannot handle, Atobe cannot defeat Sanada who has Rai at his disposal.

Remember Atobe could not even return Zan without World of Ice. <-- Fact.

Atobe about to defeat Sanada with World of Ice, was against Sanada who had yet to reveal Rai to anyone except certain Rikkai members. <--Fact.

Atobe is amongst the best in the series <-- Fact.

Atobe is yet to show us a technique that can fully overcome Sanada. <-- Fact.

Atobe being shown more is due to his high-ranking in popularity lol. Not coz Konomi simply wanted to spend all his time on him. Atobe was in fact his MOST popular character so its only logical to spend lots of time on him.

Right now, did you know his the THIRD most popular character? He isnt first anymore. <-- Fact.

Just explain to me how Atobe with what he has NOW at this moment while he his getting laughed at by Ochi Tsukimitsu who isnt even serious but is all over Atobe/Niou pair with Mouri just relaxing can defeat Sanada with what Sanada has now.

---------- Post added at 02:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:30 AM ----------

Mmm, Why Atobe can't just do the same than yuki and use the handle of the racket? In fact, at least in the anime (I don't remember in the manga) he uses viking horn.

Viking Horn ISNT the handle of the racket. It still uses the strings. Otherwise Kai Yuujirou would be amazing.

Also for what is worth, Atobe made a better fight to ryoma than both Sanada and yuki. I know that Sanada didn't used Rai in (Atobe didn't have atobe kingdom by then ).

Atobe faced a strictly Muga!Ryoma. In other words he faced who Sanada faced. So fair comment.
However Yukimura destroyed Ryoma w/out TMnK. He completely destroyed him. Until plot-power and TMnK arrived Ryoma was in a helpless state.

And that yuki stomped before PoP. (in fact we have no evidence yet that Ryoma without pop can beat yuki. And that is a relevant thing because it's possible that pop is not voluntary, or at least means that yuki may be as good or better than tokugawa)

I think its fair to say, Ryoma against Yukimura, Sanada, Atobe, Niou, is a dead-man without TMnK. Akutsu could damage him but I dont see how he can counter SKnK.

People Keep downgrading Atobe, but I know that Atobe did put a better fight against ryoma, than basically anyone in the manga, at least in an official match. And I also know that yuki said that in atobe vs sanada, atobe would win that match (however later stated that only him could beat sanada)

Who is down-grading Atobe?? He is amazing!! Im just saying we have seen nothing to show he can defeat Sanada right now. That is all.

How did Atobe do better than Yukimura?? Your simply talking sh*t right now. Without a plot power moment where the audience were crying, he would have lost completely.
Ryoma's teammates were in tears during the match! Atobe fainted against a Ryoma with NO Doubled Return or SKnK.
So Atobe played a FAR weaker opponent than Yukimura. Had Yukimura faced NationalsQuarterfinals!Ryoma we would have got 6-0 Yukimura.

My position is that Sanada would win but Atobe is inmediatly below Sanada, and that is, and i think people are downgrading him more than that. Of course, I would love a full match of Sanada vs Atobe. But probably will never happen because konomi do not want to make sad any fanbase.

EXACTLY!!! Atobe is just below him! That is what I have been saying. Atobe is amazing, he just cannot defeat Sanada.
I accept Atobe is amazing.

 

[LetalHawk]

Atobe faced a strictly Muga!Ryoma. In other words he faced who Sanada faced. So fair comment.
However Yukimura destroyed Ryoma w/out TMnK. He completely destroyed him. Until plot-power and TMnK arrived Ryoma was in a helpless state.


I think its fair to say, Ryoma against Yukimura, Sanada, Atobe, Niou, is a dead-man without TMnK. Akutsu could damage him but I dont see how he can counter SKnK.

Hold on right there. Ryoma, a dead-man without TMnK against those players? Right now? Have you forgotten the ten balls power-up plus that he is the player that had the most growth of the losers?

He doesn't need TnK right now to face those. Against Sanada yeah due to BA, but he could defeat Yukimura, Atobe and Niou without Tenimuhou. He doesn't need the final door of muga to defeat them. I'm tired of hearing that to beat the strongest he needs Tenimuhou. Echizen defeated Yukimura once with Tenimuhou, but because now he sure improved a big deal, he could hit winners with just Hyakuren. I see him being able to avoid yips somehow.

And no, if Atobe can't at least be even with Sanada, there's no way he'll defeat Echizen. Sanada, for now, can hit 5 balls at the same time, Echizen can hit ten. Clearly, Echizen>Sanada. Echizen could hold his own field against Kazuya or Oni, that's what at least Mifune said: "you can't defeat those two if you don't hit 10 balls at the same time", hitting more balls than another player means some difference in skill.

 

[Ninomiya]

Hold on right there. Ryoma, a dead-man without TMnK against those players? Right now? Have you forgotten the ten balls power-up plus that he is the player that had the most growth of the losers?

Your right, he isnt a dead-man. No guarantee he will overcome AK though. He will have to access Muga for Tezuka Zone and his stamina may let him down. Atobe's stamina has probably increased.

He doesn't need TnK right now to face those. Against Sanada yeah due to BA, but he could defeat Yukimura

Your gonna forget how Yukimura destroyed Ryoma w/out TMnK? But youve seen nothing of Sanada's BA but can confirm Sanada's power? That's called being biased.

Or your suggesting Yukimura hasnt improved at all since Nationals?

He doesn't need the final door of muga to defeat them. I'm tired of hearing that to beat the strongest he needs Tenimuhou. Echizen defeated Yukimura once with Tenimuhou, but because now he sure improved a big deal, he could hit winners with just Hyakuren. I see him being able to avoid yips somehow.

What good does power do against Yukimura? He has the necessary technique to return it. Im wrong in saying he is a dead man, but your wrong for saying Ryoma will definetely beat Yuki without TMnK.
You see him avoiding yips somehow? Good reasoning.

And no, if Atobe can't at least be even with Sanada, there's no way he'll defeat Echizen. Sanada, for now, can hit 5 balls at the same time, Echizen can hit ten. Clearly, Echizen>Sanada. Echizen could hold his own field against Kazuya or Oni, that's what at least Mifune said: "you can't defeat those two if you don't hit 10 balls at the same time", hitting more balls than another player means some difference in skill.

Fair enough.
Although we havent been told as to how Ryoma can overcome AK or null the effect of AK.

Irie hasnt been shown to hit 5 at a time, but are you gonna confirm he cant beat Akutsu? YOU dont know. I dont know.
So that theory isnt 100% as of yet.

 

[LetalHawk]

Sure Yukimura improved, Ryoma also and he is way above than he was when the Nationals finished, but somehow, Ryoma breaking out of yips, it's possible. I don't think they'll work if he experienced them again, somehow, maybe due to plot power, but I don't see Yips affecting Ryoma again like before. Or score winners against him is a possibility and now chances are higher due to mountain's training.

I just see Sanada's BA stronger than Hyakuren and Saiki. Hyakuren Ryoma got a point from Yukimura, but Yukimura managed to return the shots. However, BA got an instant point and Yukimura was afraid of that aura coming again. So at least not equal, but very close to Tenimuhou. We don't have enough information, but at least, BA should be stronger than both Hyakuren and Saiki.

 

[Fayte]

Sanada, for now, can hit 5 balls at the same time, Echizen can hit ten. Clearly, Echizen>Sanada.

We still do not have confirmation of this. The only reason we know Echizen can hit 10 is because he specifically had the spotlight. Sanada, Kintarou and Akutsu were in the dark (no doubt raising their abilities). As soon as the spotlight changes and shifts to one of those other guys, I wouldn't be surprised to find out they have been improving at the same rate as Echizen (just like they did hitting 5 balls).

When it was revealed Echizen could hit 5 balls, the spotlight was on Echizen, Kintarou, and Sanada, who were also able to hit 5 balls. However, ever since then, the spotlight was on Echizen only, so we are ignorant of what's going on with the others. We will know for sure once they get screentime and see if they improved along with Echizen, or remained the same.

 

[LetalHawk]

We still do not have confirmation of this. The only reason we know Echizen can hit 10 is because he specifically had the spotlight. Sanada, Kintarou and Akutsu were in the dark (no doubt raising their abilities). As soon as the spotlight changes and shifts to one of those other guys, I wouldn't be surprised to find out they have been improving at the same rate as Echizen (just like they did hitting 5 balls).

When it was revealed Echizen could hit 5 balls, the spotlight was on Echizen, Kintarou, and Sanada, who were also able to hit 5 balls. However, ever since then, the spotlight was on Echizen only, so we are ignorant of what's going on with the others. We will know for sure once they get screentime and see if they improved along with Echizen, or remained the same.

That's why I said for now, I believe he can hit more than 5 for sure, much like Kintarou and Akutsu. Probably, Sanada and Akutsu can hit 10, but we have to wait until we see them play again.

 

[Hardy]

Sanada, for now, can hit 5 balls at the same time, Echizen can hit ten. Clearly, Echizen>Sanada. Echizen could hold his own field against Kazuya or Oni, that's what at least Mifune said: "you can't defeat those two if you don't hit 10 balls at the same time", hitting more balls than another player means some difference in skill.

You shouldn't just focus on how many balls do they hit at they same time. As far as I know, tennis is played with only 1.
Stats and Techs are way more important.

Back to the topic, Atobe is just inmediatly below Sanada, just because Drunken Coach 's training is shown to made them improve way more than normal training.

Echizen-Yuki>Sanada>Kintarou-Atobe-Shiraishi and then the others...

 

[LetalHawk]

You shouldn't just focus on how many balls do they hit at they same time. As far as I know, tennis is played with only 1.
Stats and Techs are way more important.

Back to the topic, Atobe is just inmediatly below Sanada, just because Drunken Coach 's training is shown to made them improve way more than normal training.

Echizen-Yuki>Sanada>Kintarou-Atobe-Shiraishi and then the others...

You're right, but Konomi has show that now, as ridiculous it may sound, hitting more balls than another players means some difference in skiñl, however, that doesn't matter much. Yukimura, for example, maybe he can't hit more than 10 balls, but he could destroy most of G10 olayers and even beat top 5 players like Oni, Ryoga or Shuuji.

But still, hitting many balls improves your skill, that's what I learned after readin the mountain chapters and with Mifune's speech. If the drunken coach said that to beat Oni or Tokugawa, you need to hit 10 balls, then is very important to hit multiple balls. However, it's ridiculous.

 

[Hardy]

You're right, but Konomi has show that now, as ridiculous it may sound, hitting more balls than another players means some difference in skiñl, however, that doesn't matter much. Yukimura, for example, maybe he can't hit more than 10 balls, but he could destroy most of G10 olayers and even beat top 5 players like Oni, Ryoga or Shuuji.

But still, hitting many balls improves your skill, that's what I learned after readin the mountain chapters and with Mifune's speech. If the drunken coach said that to beat Oni or Tokugawa, you need to hit 10 balls, then is very important to hit multiple balls. However, it's ridiculous.

Maybe he was just talking to Echizen, as he knew his potential. Like "If YOU want to beat those guys YOU need to hit at least 10 balls".
Yuki is a beast. Tezuka should have played him before leaving (we ALL knew that he was going to destroy Fuji lol)

 

[Brandnewkid]

I think there's some confusion about that whole line about hitting ten balls at a time. It's not as complex are people make it seem. This is what Coach Mifune said:

"Just know this: Ya' can't beat Oni or Tokugawa. Those guys can hit 10 balls at once."

To which some high school gawkers add, "Right, those guys are special! Not just anyone can do it!"

Then Ryoma says "So, if we learn to hit 10 at once, we can beat those guys, right?"

He's saying that to be able to stand a chance against Oni or Tokugawa, one would need to be capable of hitting ten balls at once. It's like saying to an aspiring professional track star, "In order to stand a chance of winning the Olympics, you need to be able to run a speed under 8.5."

If you can't hit 10 balls at once, don't even think of winning.

 

[Ninomiya]

You shouldn't just focus on how many balls do they hit at they same time. As far as I know, tennis is played with only 1.
Stats and Techs are way more important.

Back to the topic, Atobe is just inmediatly below Sanada, just because Drunken Coach 's training is shown to made them improve way more than normal training.

Echizen-Yuki>Sanada>Kintarou-Atobe-Shiraishi and then the others...

Atobe is above Shiraishi after Atobe Kingdom. Its definetely Atobe > Shiraishi.